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LPSHobby
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Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:49 am

Why does´t Boeing develop a longer range range 737 Max? When I say a kloger range I say a plane with the same, or more, range as the A321LR. Drawings new wings, too much expensive?

your toughts, please
Last edited by atcsundevil on Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited spelling in title
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:02 am

Because it's not that easy getting a 50 year old aircraft design to comply with something like that. If you were going to invest in that, you may swell spend a bit more and build something better and more attractive.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
 
kengo
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:03 am

Instead of spending several billion dollars on new wings, landing gears, wing-box and whatever that needs to be changed to give MAX a range boost, better spend the money on a new design NSA, IMHO.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:08 am

The 737 design is at the edge of its limits, a fantastic design, but to get longer range out of it, they would need to change so much that wouldnt be cost effective vs a new sheet design plane.
 
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OA940
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:30 am

797 is basically it. Only they just add in some more capacity.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
rg787
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:06 pm

Isn't the 737 fuselage much more economical than the A32x series?

I think Boeing chose to not to do some changes because it would be more expensive and take longer, knowing that it would compromise sales and economies results of the frame, but if they wanted to, they could.

One must remember that this same 60 year old design is able to be competitive even using a lower bypass engine and supposedly, a not so efficient wing as the A32x, and not having ability to carry LD3 containers.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:25 pm

Completely different idea:

What about taking the 707-300B and change it to 2 engines?

You get a long enough and well known fuselage, 737 cocpkit and cabin, longer gear struts and enough ground clearance.
Wings have been changed before on the same TCDS (e.g. 747-8).

In the end you have a 707-800X, maybe also a 707-900X which is based on a design not much older than the 737 but more capable for future developements.
Happy Landings
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:57 pm

The question is who is asking for such a plane? We already have 4 Airlines using the 737-8 on Transatlantic routes compared to just two using the A321neo. For a while now the longest routes using current generation narrowbodies in standard configurations have been 737s such as Copa, Aerolineas Argentinas and Turkish who all use 737s on routes over 3000sm.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:15 pm

Hmm... a brand new version of the tuna can with LR or ULR?
They did, it's called 787.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:23 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
Completely different idea:

What about taking the 707-300B and change it to 2 engines?

You get a long enough and well known fuselage, 737 cocpkit and cabin, longer gear struts and enough ground clearance.
Wings have been changed before on the same TCDS (e.g. 747-8).

In the end you have a 707-800X, maybe also a 707-900X which is based on a design not much older than the 737 but more capable for future developements.


It would likely be more effective to bring back the tooling of the 757 and make it common with the 787 similar to how the original 757 was common with the 767. That idea has been thoroughly discussed and beaten down so this one would likely have the same issues.
 
SRT75
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:43 pm

rg787 wrote:
One must remember that this same 60 year old design is able to be competitive even using a lower bypass engine


Definitely not an engineer, but would raising the plane a few inches permit a good deal of advancements on engine options? I've never quite understood why the 737 is so low to the ground. Was there a reason why Boeing originally picked that option? Better access to part by ground staff? Lift ground effect on takeoff? Cheaper parts?
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:47 pm

I think you hit it - mainly better maintenance for the engines and access to the airplane. The original 731 was meant as a short range bird, almost what a regional jet would be today. So, it would be operating from smaller, less developed airfields, with fewer baggage handlers, etc. That made ease of access very important, hence the shorter gear. Also, being such a small plane originally meant that everything would be small. The original 731 is a mere shade of what it is now. They're two exceptionally different airplanes, now built for many different roles. Boeing never in its wildest dreams thought that the 737 would become what it is now way back in the mid sixties. They designed it for the role(s) they predicted it would adopt back then, and we are left with the legacies of those choices today.
 
rg787
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:11 pm

SRT75 wrote:
rg787 wrote:
One must remember that this same 60 year old design is able to be competitive even using a lower bypass engine


Definitely not an engineer, but would raising the plane a few inches permit a good deal of advancements on engine options? I've never quite understood why the 737 is so low to the ground. Was there a reason why Boeing originally picked that option? Better access to part by ground staff? Lift ground effect on takeoff? Cheaper parts?


Not an engineer either, but it is my understanding that one of the advantages of the A32x series aircraft is the higher bypass engine, which is some inches larger.

I believe the 737 is lower to the ground because every plane back then was lower... Engines were smaller and airports were not as developed as today, with the 737 needing to operate even on gravel runways. Lack of loading equipment and ease of maintenance sure must be some of the reasons why it was developed this way.

Also, as to why it wasn't heightened more today, a longer landing gear would mean changes in the wing box as well as changes in a lot of systems that are located in that center area, meaning it would be too expensive.
 
STLflyer
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:24 pm

Because spending more time beyond the MAX's current range limits on a narrowbody jet sounds like hell 35,000 feet above Earth.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Why doesn´t Boening make a loger range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:27 pm

SRT75 wrote:
rg787 wrote:
One must remember that this same 60 year old design is able to be competitive even using a lower bypass engine


Definitely not an engineer, but would raising the plane a few inches permit a good deal of advancements on engine options? I've never quite understood why the 737 is so low to the ground. Was there a reason why Boeing originally picked that option? Better access to part by ground staff? Lift ground effect on takeoff? Cheaper parts?


The height of the ground is one of the points they do not want to change. As it is the 737 does not need slides for the wing exits.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:27 pm

STLflyer wrote:
Because spending more time beyond the MAX's current range limits on a narrowbody jet sounds like hell 35,000 feet above Earth.


Nobody in a BBJ, ACJ or Gulfstream has a problem with that.
All a matter of cabin and service.
Happy Landings
 
STLflyer
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:31 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Because spending more time beyond the MAX's current range limits on a narrowbody jet sounds like hell 35,000 feet above Earth.


Nobody in a BBJ, ACJ or Gulfstream has a problem with that.
All a matter of cabin and service.


Oh come on, everyone knows what I meant. If I were on a private jet, then yeah, I'd happily fly on it from London to Sydney nonstop as long as it had the range.

For the 95% of the passengers who will be in Y on a commercial flight of this nature, it sounds completely miserable.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:54 pm

One of the major issues with a long-range B737 MAX will be where the auxiliary fuel tanks would go.
There has been developments on other earlier B737 versions as of where those fuel tanks where placed without tanking too much from the baggage/cargo area.
IMHO, the day Boeing develops a 5250nm range, +/- 28C/100Y cabin, B737 MAX ETOPS180 without major baggage room taken by the auxiliary tanks, CM may even think of studying flying transatlantic to MAD and LON.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:58 pm

STLflyer wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Because spending more time beyond the MAX's current range limits on a narrowbody jet sounds like hell 35,000 feet above Earth.


Nobody in a BBJ, ACJ or Gulfstream has a problem with that.
All a matter of cabin and service.


Oh come on, everyone knows what I meant. If I were on a private jet, then yeah, I'd happily fly on it from London to Sydney nonstop as long as it had the range.

For the 95% of the passengers who will be in Y on a commercial flight of this nature, it sounds completely miserable.

Yet the 737 shares the cabin width of 707 which did longhaul and we didn't hear many moans about hellish misery.

There's a simple solution: if you don't like the 'standard' Y class arrangements, either (a) don't go or (b) pay for Y+/C/F.
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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trijetsonly
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:59 pm

STLflyer wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Because spending more time beyond the MAX's current range limits on a narrowbody jet sounds like hell 35,000 feet above Earth.


Nobody in a BBJ, ACJ or Gulfstream has a problem with that.
All a matter of cabin and service.


Oh come on, everyone knows what I meant. If I were on a private jet, then yeah, I'd happily fly on it from London to Sydney nonstop as long as it had the range.

For the 95% of the passengers who will be in Y on a commercial flight of this nature, it sounds completely miserable.


This is a statement that I read quite often here but I still don't get it.

I've done 7 hour flights in 737, 757, 767, 787 and 747 (and of course A330, A340 and A380) in Eco, Premium Eco and Business Class but I felt absolutely no difference based on the cabin space. No different feelings regarding claustrophobia, humidity or cabin air density.
Of course there've been massive differences regarding seat comfort but that depends on the seat that the airline uses.
Alaska Airlines transcons and Hawaii flights are nice for me. Flights from northern Europe to the Canary Islands and the Middle East on Recaro seats aren't.

But in the end it's still only the seat cushion and the service that makes the difference for me. Not if it's 4 abreast with one aisle or 10 abreast with two aisles.
Happy Landings
 
YYZSpotter1991
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:13 pm

Since something like that had already existed; the 757.
Toronto-based flyer since 1997
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:14 pm

STLflyer wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Because spending more time beyond the MAX's current range limits on a narrowbody jet sounds like hell 35,000 feet above Earth.


Nobody in a BBJ, ACJ or Gulfstream has a problem with that.
All a matter of cabin and service.

Oh come on, everyone knows what I meant. If I were on a private jet, then yeah, I'd happily fly on it from London to Sydney nonstop as long as it had the range.

For the 95% of the passengers who will be in Y on a commercial flight of this nature, it sounds completely miserable.

I prefer direct flights.
People claim somehow the same seat in a 737 is somehow wow worse than a 767. I will do what I can to avoid a connection. But I usually must fly at certain times of the day or week. So by having frequency, it is more convenient.

This sounds like a rehash of the ETOPS argument.

This is a vote by money. Whomever, as a group, spends the most wins.

I would like to see a longer range MAX. That will happen with the CMC PIP. We are talking another 150+nm of range. Please recall the GE9x is the launch engine for the technology.

My most common flight is TCON. 2nd most to Hawaii. 3rd most.. a bunch of RJ destinations.

If I can fly out of LGB instead of LAX to Europe (with a connection), I will. I will fly LGB to Hawaii thanks to the A321NEO. When I fly TCON, I will always pay a premium, as will my employer, for a direct flight. Guess what? There are very few widebody choices, and only one occasionally meets my time to fly requirement.

Vote with your dollars. My vote favors frequency and fragmentation.

Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: Why doesn´t Boeing make a longer range 737 Max?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:18 pm

YYZSpotter1991 wrote:
Since something like that had already existed; the 757.

The issue is the A321LR will carry almost the same people 100nm further for 30% less fuel. The 757 has always been expensive to maintain, in particular the engines: both engines, the Pratts need too many overhauls and the downside of a triple spool is much higher overhaul bills. The two engines actually have close per flight maintenance costs...

Boeing has to do something to stay in the market. I think a CMC turbine PIP is sufficient.

Lightsaber
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