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Zoedyn
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American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:34 am

https://skift.com/2018/09/13/american-c ... ready/amp/

Not long after the settling down of the longstanding dispute btwn U.S. and Gulf carriers earlier this year, American Airlines CEO Doug Parker is accusing one Gulf competitor of unfair play again

Without naming though, Parker said one of the three major Gulf airlines is bypassing the administration-negotiated pact by helping an airline it has made an investment in to fly to the United States

The article has identified Qatar as what Parker is targeting at: QR bought a 49% stake in Air Italy last year and then leased the latter five A330s earlier this year, hence allowing Air Italy to fly nonstop from Milan to two of AA’s hubs — Miami and JFK

This is getting interesting

Anything wrong with QR’s practice here? Do you think Parker’s accusation is fair and just? Any thoughts?
 
chonetsao
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:36 am

Why? Qatar did not promise not to fly to US via third party. It is only UAE carrier did promise to halt expansion. Qatar's promise is to open the books.
 
waly777
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:44 am

His hypocrisy is laughable seeing as AA works closely with IAG which QR owns 20% of and the same QR leases aircraft to BA.

Just a joker, looking for something to moan about.
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jfk777
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:00 am

The "understanding" with the ME3 is only from their home countries and those airlines. Qatar owns 49% of Air Italy which has every right to fly to the USA from Milan. The ME3 have invested in many airline including Alitalia and Jet Aiways of India and no one has "accused" them of violating a deal with the ME3. Alitalia has extensive US operations, the involvement of Etihad today is next to none since Alitalia has practically declared bankruptcy and is being supported by its Government.

Many international airline have invested in 49% in other airline like Singapore buying 49% of Virgin Atlantic years ago, was AA complaining then that Singapore was fling from LHR to the USA ? It was a quiet as a dead man.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:04 am

Clutching at straws here... they are also flying the A330's to BOM, BKK, LOS. If QR wants to pump money/planes into IG so be it. AA's beef is IG has recently launched these routes with low fares to build market awareness. It's not like QR donated A380's and launched double daily JFK/MIA flights...
 
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Aesma
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:27 am

Trump is supporting the UAE and Saudi Arabia against Qatar (the country) so I doubt people in Qatar are that keen to follow any agreement right now.
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smi0006
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:38 am

waly777 wrote:
His hypocrisy is laughable seeing as AA works closely with IAG which QR owns 20% of and the same QR leases aircraft to BA.

Just a joker, looking for something to moan about.


Yeah, maybe AA should break their JV with BA/IB in-protest. Doesn’t QR own a share in LATAM too? Not to mention QR are in Oneworld... I suppose we won’t see IG join anytime soon!

No matter the advantages your competitors may receive, Ive always felt it poor form to continually slander your competitors. Best to focus on your own business, and if absolutely necessary discreetly lobby, where you can actually win.
 
spannacomo
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:48 am

AB was also a company owned by Etihad performing TATL flights and nobody ever complained.
I doubt the real reason behind Parker claims is based on the alleged unfair competition of QR. There is nothing unfair in an Italian company owned by the Aga Khan IV and partecipated by QR willing to expand their operations. Maybe the real reason can be a oneworld supremacy fight between AA and QR? Lately QR bought stakes in many OW companies, I guess Parker is not happy to see someone getting more influent inside OW than he is. I do not see why he shouldn't be happy that a european company is willing to share his network with allies, OW has limited access to Italy so far.
 
jfk777
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:19 am

spannacomo wrote:
AB was also a company owned by Etihad performing TATL flights and nobody ever complained.
I doubt the real reason behind Parker claims is based on the alleged unfair competition of QR. There is nothing unfair in an Italian company owned by the Aga Khan IV and partecipated by QR willing to expand their operations. Maybe the real reason can be a oneworld supremacy fight between AA and QR? Lately QR bought stakes in many OW companies, I guess Parker is not happy to see someone getting more influent inside OW than he is. I do not see why he shouldn't be happy that a european company is willing to share his network with allies, OW has limited access to Italy so far.


Air Berlin flew to Dusseldorf primarily which is flown much less then milan by the US3. FRA and MUC are obviously the bigger destinations in Germany for the US3. The US3 all fly Malpensa to New York as does Emirates plus now Air Italy so now they whine and complain. Emirates exists deal with it, we didn't save Pan AM why are the existing airlines any different.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:43 am

I'm quite sure AA are exploring ways to 'cheat the system' too. It's funny watching corporate america moan when they're outplayed at their own 'game'. Big babies.
 
A60Stock
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:02 pm

Look, being guilty is just good business and we all know it. Parker's moaning is a bit like that of the seven year old whose parents have beaten him in a game of Monopoly.
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TheOldDude
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:08 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Why? Qatar did not promise not to fly to US via third party. It is only UAE carrier did promise to halt expansion. Qatar's promise is to open the books.


Does the text from the actual understanding agreement support your assertion? If so, please provide it.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:47 pm

Wait... here's one better... maybe Parker should bitch and moan about DL subsidizing VS which is a much larger competitor for AA than IG on trans-Atlantic routes.
 
chonetsao
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:54 pm

TheOldDude wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Why? Qatar did not promise not to fly to US via third party. It is only UAE carrier did promise to halt expansion. Qatar's promise is to open the books.


Does the text from the actual understanding agreement support your assertion? If so, please provide it.


There are many articles on this issue. For example, Airways Magazine, Business Insider...etc. I am quoting CH-Aviation for the issues around US3 VS ME3 as it makes a better back ground reading. Here we go.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... 3-tensions

For Qatar specific settlement, I am going to quote thepointsguy reporting.

https://thepointsguy.com/2018/01/qatar- ... ettlement/

The core issue is, fly EU-US under third party or companies owns stake is not fifth freedom route. Qatar owns 49% Air Italy and Air Italy should be able to fly any routes under the current legal frames. If you think Air Italy's MXP JFK routes is cheating, what about IAG which Qatar owns 20% or more?

I failed to see how this qualify as 'cheating' when we talk about a third party airline VS fifth freedom.
Last edited by chonetsao on Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:47 pm

What I never understood or still fail to understand is why American carriers cannot think outside the box.

What about a partnership between an American carriers and an Indian carrier. Try to develop an airline that would take passengers off the ME3. That would significantly hurt the ME3
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Austin787
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:40 pm

AA and Qatar are in OneWorld - work on developing a stronger partnership. If you can't beat them, join them.
Last edited by Austin787 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
klakzky123
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:44 pm

3rdGen wrote:
What I never understood or still fail to understand is why American carriers cannot think outside the box.

What about a partnership between an American carriers and an Indian carrier. Try to develop an airline that would take passengers off the ME3. That would significantly hurt the ME3


I believe DL has already done that with 9W (who incidentally are partially owned by EY). At least DL is trying on that front. In theory UA could try and partner with AI but we're talking about AI here and that would most likely go terribly. 9W itself has major problems so its hard to find a competent Indian partner.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:22 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
What I never understood or still fail to understand is why American carriers cannot think outside the box.

What about a partnership between an American carriers and an Indian carrier. Try to develop an airline that would take passengers off the ME3. That would significantly hurt the ME3


I believe DL has already done that with 9W (who incidentally are partially owned by EY). At least DL is trying on that front. In theory UA could try and partner with AI but we're talking about AI here and that would most likely go terribly. 9W itself has major problems so its hard to find a competent Indian partner.


They need to stay away from AI and 9W. Partner with the newer carriers, they are being run way more professionally. Try to get a better level of service and an efficient operation going to Europe and North America. They can help them out with slots, maintainance, catering etc. Can help lower costs. Or code share from Europe to North America. Indigo will be starting European operations shortly.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
747superliner
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:36 pm

Not that well-versed with such matters so let me see if I understand what's going on here. By having a 49% stake in Air Italy and then leasing Air Italy's planes (330s), QR is profiting off Air Italy's service between MXP and both, MIA and JFK yes? And that's a form of bypassing the "agreement" is the point yes? Not trying to start anything, just an honest question :)
 
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neomax
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:44 pm

Relying on either 9W, AI or any Indian carrier is a stupid move. AA needs to do do what UA and DL are doing and fly company.
 
jfk777
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:17 am

Nothing in the revision of Open Skies with the ME3 restricted them from investing 49% in other airlines and allowing those airlines to fly from from their home countries to the USA.

Qatar purchased 10% of Cathay Pacific and no one has accused them of driving Delta out of Hong Kong, yet. Qatar is very smart by buying Meridiana and creating Air Italy since there should be an Italian airline to pick up the ashes should Alitalia go under. For decades northern European airlines have flown the long hauls for Italians especially in the north of Italy. Wonder how many Italians fly from Linate to other European hubs and fly to everywhere from LAX to Tokyo.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:21 am

Protectionism continues to raise its ugly head. It is unfair, they fly to our continent and compete! Hmm... from a customer perspective, I want as many airlines flying as many places as possible.
 
Iloveboeing
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:47 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
https://skift.com/2018/09/13/american-ceo-on-gulf-carrier-pact-someone-is-cheating-already/amp/

Not long after the settling down of the longstanding dispute btwn U.S. and Gulf carriers earlier this year, American Airlines CEO Doug Parker is accusing one Gulf competitor of unfair play again

Without naming though, Parker said one of the three major Gulf airlines is bypassing the administration-negotiated pact by helping an airline it has made an investment in to fly to the United States

The article has identified Qatar as what Parker is targeting at: QR bought a 49% stake in Air Italy last year and then leased the latter five A330s earlier this year, hence allowing Air Italy to fly nonstop from Milan to two of AA’s hubs — Miami and JFK

This is getting interesting

Anything wrong with QR’s practice here? Do you think Parker’s accusation is fair and just? Any thoughts?


The whole case against the ME3 is ridiculous; the US3 don't want competition so they can screw the customers by charging the highest fares possible, while offering subpar service. They need to compete by offering the best service in all classes like the ME3 are doing.
 
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3rdGen
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:18 pm

Having traveled to the US a lot over the past couple of years I feel that the problem is deeper than just the aviation industry. There is a sort of malaise amongst the workers in the hospitality sector. There isn't a genuine desire to help, the courtesy one gets is usually what people are trained for and at the end of the day hospitality workers seem a bit more interested in themselves and their rights over the customer and his needs. I'm not saying that I don't commend the rights that workers have in the US, but I just feel that if you're going to be in the hospitality sector you should expect to have to go that extra mile to help people out, it just seems to be like there's a smile and all talk but behind the scenes no one really cares. I don't get that sense from carriers in Asia or the Middle East. Europeans also have the same rights as workers in America but I feel that they tend to execute things a little better.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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4engines4lnghll
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:46 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Wait... here's one better... maybe Parker should bitch and moan about DL subsidizing VS which is a much larger competitor for AA than IG on trans-Atlantic routes.


Right!!

If you look at AAs strategy for starting routes, they are vicious. KEF,DUB,ICN,MUC... CDG soon im sure.. If AA were a human being they'd be the kind to play victim while planning something secretive the whole time.
4engines4lnghll
 
LIPZ
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Re: American CEO on Gulf Carrier Pact: ‘Someone Is Cheating Already’

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:21 pm

Frictions and tensions between Parker and Al Baker keep rising, with the latter one even threatening to leave oneworld (!)


Qatar Airways will pull out of the Oneworld alliance if certain partner airlines continue with unfounded accusations and blocking tactics, warns group chief executive Akbar Al Baker.
[...]
Oneworld chief executive Rob Gurney has asked for the opportunity to try to resolve the situation, Al Baker says. “I will wait for him to come back before deciding what to do.”
Al Baker’s growing frustration is with Oneworld members American Airlinesand Qantas, who he believes are not behaving how fellow alliance partners should, he says.

[...] especially since American Airlines is continuously targeting Qatar Airways, slandering Qatar Airways, giving misinformation to the US government about Qatar Airways. And now it is targeting our investment in Air Italy at very high level government interaction, claiming that we are cheating on the open-skies agreement that we signed with the US government.”
[...]
Al Baker is also unhappy with Qantas’s behaviour, which has an extensive tie-up with Gulf rival Emirates while its relationship with Qatar is “trivial”, he says. “And it is blocking us getting rights into Australia. So what is the point of us being in this alliance if it is only in the interest of a few and the interest of the rest is compromised?”
[....]
Qatar Airways holds a 49% stake in Air Italy (the former Meridiana) but Al Baker is adamant that there is no intention to use the airline and its Milan Malpensa hub for fifth-freedom flights.
“Qatar Airways does not codeshare with Air Italy beyond Milan, we do not transfer passengers beyond Milan and we have no intention of doing it in the future,” he says.
“Air Italy is just a strategic investment similar to the investment we have with IAG. And [AA] is a JV (joint-venture) partner of IAG without realising typically that we own 21% of their JV. So we are their partner and I don’t mean to undermine that partnership.”

[...]

full article for subscription
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... dr-452491/

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