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Super80Fan
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Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:05 am

I am curious to know why Delta with the few 757 charter planes they have removed WL's from outfitted aircraft. As an example, N666DN for example received WL in 2010, and removed in 2016 when the plane was re-configured for charters. Is there some benefit to this, or some other reasoning? I thought winglets were a good thing?
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:23 am

From what I hear it wasn't economical to keep them installed. They don't fly as much, and DL/NBA isn't too worried about fuel savings anyways.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:54 am

Were they put on other planes? Not economical to keep on makes like no sense unless they were moved to another frame.
 
tomaheath
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:41 am

I took N679DN from ATL to PNS a couple years ago. Has no winglets still flying at 26 years old. Looks like it does mostly short hops from ATL. It was interesting watching the crew try a do a beverage service on such a short flight.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:24 am

What’s so expensive in keeping them installed??? Are they used on other frames where the fuel savings are bigger?
 
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Channex757
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:32 am

The way the winglet calculations work, it can actually save fuel removing them if the aircraft is only doing short hops. They add weight and fuel savings only come in on sectors of a minimum length.

They are also pretty expensive. DL may have re-used them on another aircraft that needed its winglets swapped out.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:47 pm

I think it may have also been a commonality factor. Some of the NBA fleet did not have the winglets installed. They wanted them all to be the same. With the many short hops it makes more sense to have none. Also these may say Delta on the side, flown by Delta crews, and maintained by Delta, they are no longer owned by Delta. A private company owns the small fleet and controls what they do.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:28 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
With the many short hops it makes more sense to have none.


I can't imagine the 75Cs get anywhere near the average utilization of the Delta 757 fleet, either.
 
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n901wa
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:12 pm

Its been a long time but if I remember right the removed winglets were used on the ExShangai 757s that Delta Brought in.
 
jb1087xna
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:21 pm

n901wa wrote:
Its been a long time but if I remember right the removed winglets were used on the ExShangai 757s that Delta Brought in.


Before and after pictures would seem to support that. And those specific models have been flying some decently long flights...looks like even trans-Atlantic.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:05 pm

Thanks for the replies & information.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:39 pm

IIRC, I believe there are probably a dozen mainline 757s without winglets (not including NBA charter) that are from the early 90s and it wasn't economical enough to do the retrofits and install them. Either that, or they are in such heavy use they probably don't have time to be taken down to spend money on the winglets, test them, and put them back into service. Likely not worth sacrificing utilization on a 25 year old 757 to do so.

It's important to note that the long stage length 757s (JFK Transcon and some TATL) definitely have winglets. Also interesting to note that 1990 built N659DL (Sky Team Livery) was IIRC slated to be retired and now it's staying and was installed winglets years ago yet N677DL from 1992 has been scrapped.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:12 am

I flew MCO-SEA last year on a 75D with no winglets, so they're not just scheduled on short hops.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:14 am

N649DL wrote:
IIRC, I believe there are probably a dozen mainline 757s without winglets (not including NBA charter) that are from the early 90s and it wasn't economical enough to do the retrofits and install them. Either that, or they are in such heavy use they probably don't have time to be taken down to spend money on the winglets, test them, and put them back into service. Likely not worth sacrificing utilization on a 25 year old 757 to do so.

It's important to note that the long stage length 757s (JFK Transcon and some TATL) definitely have winglets. Also interesting to note that 1990 built N659DL (Sky Team Livery) was IIRC slated to be retired and now it's staying and was installed winglets years ago yet N677DL from 1992 has been scrapped.



N677DL made me scratch my head so it may have been up for a D check. But it had around 30k cycles and 66k hours. They dragged older builds with higher time.
At least they didn’t retire my favorite 666. I loved the old 75X.
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:49 am

Last download of DAL 757 from fleet management showed these planes without winglets (excluding leased NBA fleet):

668
670
671
673-676
678-684
697
698
6716



Sancho99504 wrote:
I flew MCO-SEA last year on a 75D with no winglets, so they're not just scheduled on short hops.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:40 am

The LOV for a 757-200 is 75 thousand cycles and 150,000 hours. UA AND AA Parked most of their fleets and quite a few went with Fed Ex. If a new A321neo runs about 129 million with discounts. Why would carriers put them through an extensive overhauls where they can fly well beyond the point at which carriers decide its time to retire an aircraft because after a certain amounts of D checks extra required inspections and repairs are mandatory. If the aircraft is paid it still is way cheaper than a new jet. Especially given the fact there is no direct replacement for a 757. I know cargo is different but look at hour many hours are on some of these freighters Amazon is flying. Delta started several years back putting 757’s on longer segments instead of running them on flights less than 2hrs.!
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:45 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
N649DL wrote:
IIRC, I believe there are probably a dozen mainline 757s without winglets (not including NBA charter) that are from the early 90s and it wasn't economical enough to do the retrofits and install them. Either that, or they are in such heavy use they probably don't have time to be taken down to spend money on the winglets, test them, and put them back into service. Likely not worth sacrificing utilization on a 25 year old 757 to do so.

It's important to note that the long stage length 757s (JFK Transcon and some TATL) definitely have winglets. Also interesting to note that 1990 built N659DL (Sky Team Livery) was IIRC slated to be retired and now it's staying and was installed winglets years ago yet N677DL from 1992 has been scrapped.



N677DL made me scratch my head so it may have been up for a D check. But it had around 30k cycles and 66k hours. They dragged older builds with higher time.
At least they didn’t retire my favorite 666. I loved the old 75X.


Same. Really happy they are refurbishing these 757s to look brand new.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:00 pm

The 757 refurbs have been done for a while. It would be nice if they brought in the lie-flat 75S and 753s for the pivot bins that the 75D and 75H received.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:26 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The 757 refurbs have been done for a while. It would be nice if they brought in the lie-flat 75S and 753s for the pivot bins that the 75D and 75H received.


IIRC, DL might have finished the A319 refurbishment ahead of the 757s last year. Both types have only been completed within the last year or so.

Wish UAL did the same with their 757s which were dumped over to Fedex or stored. Now it seems they are wishing for them back with the dispatch reliability of the ex-PS fleet (only 15 frames) being below par.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:03 am

N649DL wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
N649DL wrote:
IIRC, I believe there are probably a dozen mainline 757s without winglets (not including NBA charter) that are from the early 90s and it wasn't economical enough to do the retrofits and install them. Either that, or they are in such heavy use they probably don't have time to be taken down to spend money on the winglets, test them, and put them back into service. Likely not worth sacrificing utilization on a 25 year old 757 to do so.

It's important to note that the long stage length 757s (JFK Transcon and some TATL) definitely have winglets. Also interesting to note that 1990 built N659DL (Sky Team Livery) was IIRC slated to be retired and now it's staying and was installed winglets years ago yet N677DL from 1992 has been scrapped.



N677DL made me scratch my head so it may have been up for a D check. But it had around 30k cycles and 66k hours. They dragged older builds with higher time.
At least they didn’t retire my favorite 666. I loved the old 75X.


Same. Really happy they are refurbishing these 757s to look brand new.



They were taken off because having the winglets didn’t make any improvements Ds charter flights are very short most times and I think they wanted free commonality for the charter group of very small amount of aircraft from what I heard didn’t get winglets because of previous wing repair.It is true when they dragged is 757 is out of the desert they redid the interiors did the 4K Wi-Fi complete overhaul.

But no one seems to answer my question as why don’t they take these 757’s that are on paper half life midway through their cycles in hours most of them are paid for. Fuel is an exactly very high. There is no direct replacement for the 757 why don’t they take them and go for the type of overhaul that the cargo operators invest in even if they put 15 million into the airplane that’s still $100 million less than buying a new airplane and it’s something that is basically irrreplaceable as of now when Amazon puts their 767 through conversion the company doing the conversion says that they can last another 20 years well since they fly more let’s just say they get another 10 years out of them I think it would be worth it
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:06 am

N649DL wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The 757 refurbs have been done for a while. It would be nice if they brought in the lie-flat 75S and 753s for the pivot bins that the 75D and 75H received.


IIRC, DL might have finished the A319 refurbishment ahead of the 757s last year. Both types have only been completed within the last year or so.

Wish UAL did the same with their 757s which were dumped over to Fedex or stored. Now it seems they are wishing for them back with the dispatch reliability of the ex-PS fleet (only 15 frames) being below par.



Fed ex didn’t care that they had Pratt and Whitney’s they jumped on those. some of those planes had 50,000 hours 20,000 cycles UA was crazy
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:07 am

n7371f wrote:
Last download of DAL 757 from fleet management showed these planes without winglets (excluding leased NBA fleet):

668
670
671
673-676
678-684
697
698
6716



Sancho99504 wrote:
I flew MCO-SEA last year on a 75D with no winglets, so they're not just scheduled on short hops.


Add 666
 
ben175
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:36 am

I flew N684DA last July on JFK-SXM with no winglets.
 
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United_fan
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:43 am

I saw a bunch of these in FLL,I figured DL was using up the cycles on these and didn't want to invest the money in winglets.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
csweet
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:19 pm

Recently flew ATL-PBI ona 757 with no winglets. However, AA still flies PHX- Hawaii with the no winglet 757, how are these routes not economical enough to add winglets?
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:22 pm

csweet wrote:
Recently flew ATL-PBI ona 757 with no winglets. However, AA still flies PHX- Hawaii with the no winglet 757, how are these routes not economical enough to add winglets?


All the PHX ones will be junked next year according to the latest fleet plans and replaced with A321 NEO's.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
MO11
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:02 pm

csweet wrote:
Recently flew ATL-PBI ona 757 with no winglets. However, AA still flies PHX- Hawaii with the no winglet 757, how are these routes not economical enough to add winglets?


I just searched for photos on all of the AA 757s that fly PHX-Hawaii. They ALL have winglets. Did something recently happen?
 
csweet
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:00 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
csweet wrote:
Recently flew ATL-PBI ona 757 with no winglets. However, AA still flies PHX- Hawaii with the no winglet 757, how are these routes not economical enough to add winglets?


All the PHX ones will be junked next year according to the latest fleet plans and replaced with A321 NEO's.



Wow, replaced with A321's eh? Would've thought they'd bring in a widebody.
 
workhorse
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:13 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
As an example, N666DN for example received WL in 2010, and removed in 2016


Given the reg, this aircraft should have received a couple of horns, not winglets! :devil:
 
rdombrov
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:14 pm

My wife and I flew the AA 757 from PHX to OGG a couple of weeks ago and it had winglets. But the cabin seemed like going back to the 80s or 90s. Returned on an A321 via LAX and we liked that much better. I heard those PHX 757s are old HP fleet.
 
workhorse
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:18 pm

workhorse wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
As an example, N666DN for example received WL in 2010, and removed in 2016


Given the reg, this aircraft should have received a couple of horns, not winglets! :devil:


Like this one:

 
MO11
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:56 pm

rdombrov wrote:
My wife and I flew the AA 757 from PHX to OGG a couple of weeks ago and it had winglets. But the cabin seemed like going back to the 80s or 90s. Returned on an A321 via LAX and we liked that much better. I heard those PHX 757s are old HP fleet.


The America West operated 757s are gone. The first 757s operated by America West (originally operated by Republic) were retired in 2015-16. These did operate on the Hawaii routes and did not have winglets.

The current PHX 757s are either US Airways airplanes, or second hand airplanes acquired after the HP merger.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:12 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
N649DL wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
The 757 refurbs have been done for a while. It would be nice if they brought in the lie-flat 75S and 753s for the pivot bins that the 75D and 75H received.


IIRC, DL might have finished the A319 refurbishment ahead of the 757s last year. Both types have only been completed within the last year or so.

Wish UAL did the same with their 757s which were dumped over to Fedex or stored. Now it seems they are wishing for them back with the dispatch reliability of the ex-PS fleet (only 15 frames) being below par.



Fed ex didn’t care that they had Pratt and Whitney’s they jumped on those. some of those planes had 50,000 hours 20,000 cycles UA was crazy


Assuming that's a lot of cycles and hours? Not sure. Either way, UA was notorious for using their 757s on very short segments and turn like DEN-MCI-DEN.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:14 pm

Installing the winglet mod is a pretty large investment. I can't recall the cost for the 757, but it takes more than just bolting on the winglet to install it. There is a lot of structural work that has be done inside the wing to do the mod. So if an airplane is going to leave the fleet relatively soon there might not be enough time to get a return on that investment.

Another factor is the current condition of the wing. I know on at least one of the DL fleet there was a structural repair on one of the wings that made the plane ineligible for the mod.
 
KICT
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Re: Delta 757's with no Winglets

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:21 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
Installing the winglet mod is a pretty large investment. I can't recall the cost for the 757, but it takes more than just bolting on the winglet to install it. There is a lot of structural work that has be done inside the wing to do the mod. So if an airplane is going to leave the fleet relatively soon there might not be enough time to get a return on that investment.

Another factor is the current condition of the wing. I know on at least one of the DL fleet there was a structural repair on one of the wings that made the plane ineligible for the mod.

Some of the aircraft in question previously had winglets, but they were removed (hence the entire purpose of this thread...).
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