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BREECH
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:13 pm

And one more question for the professional pilots or experts. The ATC asks, "ILS is out of service on both sides of the airplane"? I didn't know there were two ILS systems and that they were on the opposite sides of the plane! Is that true?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:14 pm

They needed ceiling and visibility high enough to land out of an approach that wasn’t an ILS. JFK has non-ILS approaches aplenty, just at that time the weather wouldn’t allow them. EWR frequently has the best weather among the NYC airports.

Radar altimeters are used all the time for approaches, but when minimums are established using RADALT, it’s over surveyed ground, so accuracy can be assured.
GF
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:28 pm

BREECH wrote:
And one more question for the professional pilots or experts. The ATC asks, "ILS is out of service on both sides of the airplane"? I didn't know there were two ILS systems and that they were on the opposite sides of the plane! Is that true?


Two ILS receivers onboard the aircraft, not in opposite sides, the boxes are in the avionics bay. The aerials are normally located in the nose near the weather radar.
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:54 pm

From AvHerald ...

-> "... the crew advised they had lost multiple instruments on final approach including localizer, radio altimeters, two altimeters (with only one altimeter remaining), TCAS etc...."

This sounds like a major electrical bus or breaker failure(s) for all these avionics to be out --don't what else could cause it, I imagine it wasn't just a cockpit displays problem. Wouldn't at least one ILS receiver be on backup perm-magnet generator or battery...the pilot's hot-battery or the FO battery bus?

A quick look at the 777 electrical bus diagrams shows massive redundancy. I would like to hear more about what failed here?
 
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VarunSolanki747
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:03 pm

Thank you all for the comments! I knew if there was one place where people would debate and receive actual serious answers it would be here!

I believe even a 12 year young experienced flightsimmer can land the jet in clear skies and calm winds, with FO help ofcourse. But you add weather into it and it requires experience. A hell lot of experience. Majority of Air India Captains are all pilots who flew for the Indian Air Force and 747 during their early days. So I can bet you the experience in the cockpit was more than enough. The help from the other side (Hello JFK_TWR and APP!) was very good. Nice and calm. Professionalism at its best.

someone by the name luca_forc commented on the avherald post saying, and i quote "sometimes a momentary or longer loss of power to the right transfer bus during bus isolations while performing a triple channel autoland, together with a defective R IDG can cause something very similar to what is described here. the problem is known to Boeing, and to pilots by an O.B.suggesting to push the APP switch twice if above 1500ft, to deselect and re-select the approach mode. If, on the other hand, the airplane has already descended below 1500ft, recovery can be tried by disconnecting the autopilot, switching the flight directors off and on, set the autopilot on again, and re-selecting the approach mode"

Whatever defect it was, the aircraft was repaired and flown back into service within 24 hours. Surprisingly lol.

This is what aviation is. I am so happy i'm in this hobby.
 
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VarunSolanki747
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:07 pm

Flyer732 wrote:
They landed right behind me that morning, they cleared 4R at EWR and came to a stop. After a few minutes they continued their taxi to a gate. Seemed like a non event, meanwhile there were probably 10 fire trucks, ambulances, police cars and ops trucks following them!


Wow thank you for the information sir! Wish I was with you in the cockpit!
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:24 pm

zeke wrote:
BREECH wrote:
And one more question for the professional pilots or experts. The ATC asks, "ILS is out of service on both sides of the airplane"? I didn't know there were two ILS systems and that they were on the opposite sides of the plane! Is that true?


Two ILS receivers onboard the aircraft, not in opposite sides, the boxes are in the avionics bay. The aerials are normally located in the nose near the weather radar.


Actually there are three ILS receivers on the 777.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:37 pm

Doesn’t Air India Canabalize perfectly good aircraft for part. Such planes look like they have been at Victorville for 6 months.
 
BREECH
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:43 pm

VarunSolanki747 wrote:
I believe even a 12 year young experienced flightsimmer can land the jet in clear skies and calm winds

Hey, speak for yourself, amigo! I'm still on Cessna 172 after 12 years of sim experience!
 
BREECH
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:48 pm

I have to say I'm quite impressed by the pilot. He is facing, as the British would say, "quite a calamity", most of his instruments are down, especially the ones he actually NEEDS, because he's landing in the clouds. But he remains not only calm but actually quite nonchalant. It may be the Hindu attitude, the "it's my day to die" thing, but still, he's pretty calm for a person who has 35 minutes to live... AND kill 370 people sitting in the back. Good job, mon amis! I will never fly your airline, but I sure want my pilots to keep their heads if SOMEONE ELSE gets in a situation like that. PLEASE LET IT NOT BE ME!!!
 
airtechy
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:00 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
zeke wrote:
BREECH wrote:
And one more question for the professional pilots or experts. The ATC asks, "ILS is out of service on both sides of the airplane"? I didn't know there were two ILS systems and that they were on the opposite sides of the plane! Is that true?


Two ILS receivers onboard the aircraft, not in opposite sides, the boxes are in the avionics bay. The aerials are normally located in the nose near the weather radar.


Actually there are three ILS receivers on the 777.


...and is it not possible to tune one of the 3 receivers and route it's output to an aux display manually .. not via FMS? I know there is a standby horizon and directional gyro, but nothing that will accept an ILS signal and display it? It would seem to be a nice capability to have....like in this case...assuming of course that one of the three was working.
 
BREECH
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:01 pm

pugman211 wrote:
Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure there was a few comments on AVH that say this is a known condition, and Boeing is looking into it. It also stated a quick fix to reset the equipment. Again, in one of the comments in AVH.

Allow me disbelieve that. The systems that failed are installed on that model since 1994. Why would they develop THIS much of a problem after 24 years in production? And if it's a "known condition", why we never heard about it here or on avherald or on any other aviation forum? This kind of failure is nye on "full cabin blackout" which (I'm speculating) must be an "accident" that is quickly reported and thus publicized. You think Mr.Tim Clark would keep it quiet if his flock of twenty million 777s developed a "known condition" like that? He'd be on every news outlet yelling about it from the top of Burj Khalifa.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:34 pm

BREECH wrote:
I have to say I'm quite impressed by the pilot. He is facing, as the British would say, "quite a calamity", most of his instruments are down, especially the ones he actually NEEDS, because he's landing in the clouds. But he remains not only calm but actually quite nonchalant. It may be the Hindu attitude, the "it's my day to die" thing, but still, he's pretty calm for a person who has 35 minutes to live... AND kill 370 people sitting in the back. Good job, mon amis! I will never fly your airline, but I sure want my pilots to keep their heads if SOMEONE ELSE gets in a situation like that. PLEASE LET IT NOT BE ME!!!


Your comments are a bit overly dramatic. There were airports all over the place, even if he had to use his Captain’s Authority to violate the minimas rule someplace.

I’m not in any way suggesting that I’m not highly impressed with the Captain. I just think it’s a bit of sensationalism to suggest he had 35 minutes to live.

I’m wondering why he didn’t go to ALB immediately when the controller advised him of the higher minima there. He had enough fuel to get there and the runway length is sufficient for a 77W.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:40 pm

BREECH wrote:
pugman211 wrote:
Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure there was a few comments on AVH that say this is a known condition, and Boeing is looking into it. It also stated a quick fix to reset the equipment. Again, in one of the comments in AVH.

Allow me disbelieve that. The systems that failed are installed on that model since 1994. Why would they develop THIS much of a problem after 24 years in production? And if it's a "known condition", why we never heard about it here or on avherald or on any other aviation forum? This kind of failure is nye on "full cabin blackout" which (I'm speculating) must be an "accident" that is quickly reported and thus publicized. You think Mr.Tim Clark would keep it quiet if his flock of twenty million 777s developed a "known condition" like that? He'd be on every news outlet yelling about it from the top of Burj Khalifa.


I’m not aware of this condition either. It would be all over the Safety Review Process if it were. Not sure what the quick reset would be. The 787 has Common Core System Reset switches, but not aware that the 777 has something similar. Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:55 pm

BREECH wrote:
pugman211 wrote:
Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure there was a few comments on AVH that say this is a known condition, and Boeing is looking into it. It also stated a quick fix to reset the equipment. Again, in one of the comments in AVH.

Allow me disbelieve that. The systems that failed are installed on that model since 1994. Why would they develop THIS much of a problem after 24 years in production? And if it's a "known condition", why we never heard about it here or on avherald or on any other aviation forum? This kind of failure is nye on "full cabin blackout" which (I'm speculating) must be an "accident" that is quickly reported and thus publicized. You think Mr.Tim Clark would keep it quiet if his flock of twenty million 777s developed a "known condition" like that? He'd be on every news outlet yelling about it from the top of Burj Khalifa.

Sir Tim would be talking.

The 777 is the highest dispatch reliability widebody yet created (soon to be passed by the 787). If this was common, their would be a FAR and Sir Tim Clark wouldn't have bought so many 777s.

Pure speculation, but if proper ESD protocol wasn't followed by one individual, that could have created the issue. Don't get me started.. ESD meetings at work today. Ugh!!!

The 777 has the standard for redundancy all aircraft engineers are taught because it has worked so well for so long.

I would ask to look into AI shop practices. ESD isno joke.

Lightsaber
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:09 pm

ESD?

I’m surprised there is a common point on the two ILS receivers, let alone them common to the altimetry. And, that the three are one common bus.



GF
 
pugman211
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:22 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
BREECH wrote:
pugman211 wrote:
Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure there was a few comments on AVH that say this is a known condition, and Boeing is looking into it. It also stated a quick fix to reset the equipment. Again, in one of the comments in AVH.

Allow me disbelieve that. The systems that failed are installed on that model since 1994. Why would they develop THIS much of a problem after 24 years in production? And if it's a "known condition", why we never heard about it here or on avherald or on any other aviation forum? This kind of failure is nye on "full cabin blackout" which (I'm speculating) must be an "accident" that is quickly reported and thus publicized. You think Mr.Tim Clark would keep it quiet if his flock of twenty million 777s developed a "known condition" like that? He'd be on every news outlet yelling about it from the top of Burj Khalifa.


I’m not aware of this condition either. It would be all over the Safety Review Process if it were. Not sure what the quick reset would be. The 787 has Common Core System Reset switches, but not aware that the 777 has something similar. Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.



As I stated in my original quote, the 'known condition' statement is not my own, but one of the comments I noticed in the Aviation Herald. I don't know the validity/credibility of the claim. I merely mentioned it here to see if anyone else had heard of such an incident. Like when people mentioned the known autothrottle flaw in the Asiana214 incident. Apologies if I have any of those details are wrong btw.

Regards

Pug
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:27 pm

The autothrottle “flaw” isn’t a flaw; it’s a lack of understanding in how they work. There shouldn’t be any surprise when in a FLC descent , the throttle position is IDLE, until capturing a vertical path or altitude.

GF
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:31 pm

pugman211 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
BREECH wrote:
Allow me disbelieve that. The systems that failed are installed on that model since 1994. Why would they develop THIS much of a problem after 24 years in production? And if it's a "known condition", why we never heard about it here or on avherald or on any other aviation forum? This kind of failure is nye on "full cabin blackout" which (I'm speculating) must be an "accident" that is quickly reported and thus publicized. You think Mr.Tim Clark would keep it quiet if his flock of twenty million 777s developed a "known condition" like that? He'd be on every news outlet yelling about it from the top of Burj Khalifa.


I’m not aware of this condition either. It would be all over the Safety Review Process if it were. Not sure what the quick reset would be. The 787 has Common Core System Reset switches, but not aware that the 777 has something similar. Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.



As I stated in my original quote, the 'known condition' statement is not my own, but one of the comments I noticed in the Aviation Herald. I don't know the validity/credibility of the claim. I merely mentioned it here to see if anyone else had heard of such an incident. Like when people mentioned the known autothrottle flaw in the Asiana214 incident. Apologies if I have any of those details are wrong btw.

Regards

Pug


The Autothrottle didn't have a flaw in Asiana 214. The crew selected a completely incorrect autoflight mode for the approach that attempted to make them climb to the missed approach altitude set in the MCP, like they bizarrely selected. Then they didn't follow the most basic of flying skills and didn't monitor their Airspeed or have any clue what modes they were in.

This would be like engaging your car's cruise control in a parking lot and then blaming it on a design flaw because you ran into a parked car.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
pugman211
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The autothrottle “flaw” isn’t a flaw; it’s a lack of understanding in how they work. There shouldn’t be any surprise when in a FLC descent , the throttle position is IDLE, until capturing a vertical path or altitude.

GF



Correct, flaw is the wrong word to use. My apologies. And trying to edit on a mobile device isn't something I've done yet. :banghead:
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:37 pm

pugman211 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The autothrottle “flaw” isn’t a flaw; it’s a lack of understanding in how they work. There shouldn’t be any surprise when in a FLC descent , the throttle position is IDLE, until capturing a vertical path or altitude.

GF



Correct, flaw is the wrong word to use. My apologies. And trying to edit on a mobile device isn't something I've done yet. :banghead:


Agree on your point there is no flaw, but that isn't what happened. They weren't using FLCH to descend. They dialed in the Missed Approach Altitude in the MCP, which was higher than their current altitude. Then bizarrely selected FLCH, which attempted to climb to the MCP altitude, just like that mode is supposed to. So they manually pulled the thrust levers back. That recognized that they were attempted to override the autothrottle and went into the HOLD mode. It's designed to do that to allow the crew to select a greater or lower climb/descent rate in FLCH if they need to. They just so badly misused the system, then didn't bother to monitor their airspeed like a student pilot is taught to do.
 
BREECH
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:13 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.

And I believe actually forbidden. I clearly remember a Mayday episode where doing that led to something very catastrophic.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:28 pm

BREECH wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.

And I believe actually forbidden. I clearly remember a Mayday episode where doing that led to something very catastrophic.


That would be QZ (Indonesia AirAsia) 8501. Definitely led to some unintended consequences that time in the lead-up to the crash.
 
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litz
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:29 pm

BREECH wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.

And I believe actually forbidden. I clearly remember a Mayday episode where doing that led to something very catastrophic.


One example of this was the LOT 767 that belly landed. While the circuit breaker hadn't "popped" from overload, it had been disengaged by the FO's flight bag.

Even if they had known about it, which they didn't, one of the things in the accident report was that rules prohibited resetting a popped circuit breaker.

The reason is simple : last thing you want to do is defeat a safety device that could possibly have prevented an electrical fire in the air.
 
BREECH
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:31 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Sir Tim would be talking.

The 777 is the highest dispatch reliability widebody yet created (soon to be passed by the 787). If this was common, their would be a FAR and Sir Tim Clark wouldn't have bought so many 777s.

Pure speculation, but if proper ESD protocol wasn't followed by one individual, that could have created the issue. Don't get me started.. ESD meetings at work today. Ugh!!!

The 777 has the standard for redundancy all aircraft engineers are taught because it has worked so well for so long.

I would ask to look into AI shop practices. ESD isno joke.

Lightsaber

English, doc! What FAR and ESD?

And are you serious!? Clark is an OBE? That's news to me. I wonder what the statute read. "Valour and competence in creating newer and stronger competitors for British Airways"?
 
BREECH
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:43 pm

pugman211 wrote:
...I don't know the validity/credibility of the claim.

I would estimate it as zero. :-) And you don't have to defend yourself. I replied to your post only to quote. I did notice that you quoted it from avherald.
pugman211 wrote:
Like when people mentioned the known autothrottle flaw in the Asiana214 incident. Apologies if I have any of those details are wrong btw.

No need to apologize, at least not to me. :-)

As far as I understand (and it's a good chance to check if I got it right) the Asiana 214 captain disabled the autopilot but turned on the... whatever is the name of the system that maintains altitude. (Altitude Hold?) Then he started operating the throttles which led the airplane to "believe" that the pilot doesn't want any assistance whatsoever, and thus all automatic systems were disengaged, including, if I remember correctly, even the Flight Director. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:48 pm

airtechy wrote:
Are there any airports that can still do GCA's (ground controlled approach)? If everything dies except for one Comm radio.....


Nobody trained in how to fly them anymore
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:06 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
I’m not aware of this condition either. It would be all over the Safety Review Process if it were. Not sure what the quick reset would be. The 787 has Common Core System Reset switches, but not aware that the 777 has something similar. Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.


Maybe they are referring to the 777 bullitens eg

TBC-52 R1 ILS/GPS Multi-Mode Receiver (MMR) Failure
TBC-64 R1 FMC Reset Following Intercept Course to a Waypoint or Approach Intercept
TBC-83 R2 Electrical Load Management System (ELMS) ARINC Communication Faults

We do resets on the Airbus, these are not circuit breaker resets, rather computer resets. They look in form similar to a circuit breaker, however their function is just to remove power from a computer, when power is restored to the computer it goes through a BITE process and normally the fault is resolved.
 
KICT
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:27 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Let's see what additional info comes out. The crew did a good job of responding to the emergency, but I'm curious what led to it on the crew side (if anything) as well as on the maintenance/airline side. I wonder what if anything was downloaded from CVR/FDR by the US authorities. If nothing, then I don't have confidence that we will ever know the truth.


What emergency are you referring to?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:43 pm

KICT wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Let's see what additional info comes out. The crew did a good job of responding to the emergency, but I'm curious what led to it on the crew side (if anything) as well as on the maintenance/airline side. I wonder what if anything was downloaded from CVR/FDR by the US authorities. If nothing, then I don't have confidence that we will ever know the truth.


What emergency are you referring to?


The one that is the subject of this thread. (And I am responding to your question assuming that you are not going to, in the worst traditions of a.net, argue that the word "emergency" is somehow an inappropriate characterization. It's that kind of thing that just disgusts many of us.)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:49 pm

zeke wrote:
Never heard anyone say it was an emergency


You're better than this, Zeke. Really.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:59 pm

litz wrote:
BREECH wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Cycling circuit breakers in flight is not a good idea or condoned.

And I believe actually forbidden. I clearly remember a Mayday episode where doing that led to something very catastrophic.


One example of this was the LOT 767 that belly landed. While the circuit breaker hadn't "popped" from overload, it had been disengaged by the FO's flight bag.

Even if they had known about it, which they didn't, one of the things in the accident report was that rules prohibited resetting a popped circuit breaker.


Did a quick scan of the accident report and couldn't find anything about prohibition of resetting a CB. Whose rules, I was always taught you get "one" reset and only one and to look for popped CB's as they apparently did.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:26 pm

wjcandee wrote:
zeke wrote:
Never heard anyone say it was an emergency


You're better than this, Zeke. Really.


Nothing would indicate it was an emergency, crew did not declare one, fuel state was fine.

Pilots deal with loss of functionality all the time, a lot of times this is due to ground equipment being under maintenance. This is not an emergency.

My personal take on the matter is if I do not have the required Navaids as specified on the chart, I do not commence the approach.

Would love to hear from experts if the FAA permits an ILS approach to be flown LNAV/VNAV without an ILS being displayed.

What is the LNAV/VNAV minima on that ILS approach ?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:56 pm

zeke wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
zeke wrote:
Never heard anyone say it was an emergency


You're better than this, Zeke. Really.


Nothing would indicate it was an emergency, crew did not declare one, fuel state was fine.


Well...just for the sake of the record, I considered the following when arriving at my loose characterization of the situation as an "emergency": (1) ATC referred to it as the "Alert 2" aircraft, and that is accordingly how the FAA records will reflect the incident; (2) Approach vectors an aircraft out of the way "due to an emergency", (3) Tower tells ARFF Truck 1 which is on scene, "The nature of the emergency is a computer failure..." and (4) the pilot did say at one point that "We are really stuck, and there is no fuel." I'm not gonna insult you by explaining what "Alert 2" means in ARFF nomenclature. And while the fuel state might have been "fine", fuel was insufficient to divert comfortably to the nearest airports (BDL, BOS) with a ceiling as high as the pilot had asked for. If they can't comfortably divert to BDL or BOS from the JFK area, they're not exactly swimming in fuel.

The bottom line to me is that while I completely understand that this is the kind of thing that pilots are paid to deal with on a somewhat-regular basis, it's not completely-inappropriate to refer generally to the situation as an "emergency". The ceaseless nitpicky calling-out of participants in this forum by people (and I don't mean you here; I very much appreciate the civil, constructive tone to your response) is something that I wish we could do away with, because it stifles discussion and curiosity by those who are just learning the business.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:16 pm

BREECH wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I just think it’s a bit of sensationalism to suggest he had 35 minutes to live.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Landing a 200-ton plane with fewer instruments than the Farman brothers is such a mundane thing. Nothing compared in importance to endless threads about "MoM" and "what's going on at's". And 7200 kilos of fuel is enough to fly it back to Dehli and then some, I must've miscalculated. Those yoga airplanes are so frugal. I'm so sorry I wasted your time.

BoeingGuy wrote:
I’m wondering why he didn’t go to ALB immediately when the controller advised him of the higher minima there. He had enough fuel to get there and the runway length is sufficient for a 77W.


I'm sure with your nerves of steel you would do exactly that with twenty syrens going off on final and instruments failing faster than Obamacare.



You sound like a 13 year old in your mother's basement who knows not the slightest thing about airplanes. You clearly know nothing about what failures occurred on this airplane and how they annunciate to the crew.

The airplane has EICAS. There will not be 20 sirens going off.

I'm inferring that he got the NO LAND 3 or more probably the NO AUTOLAND caution alert below 1500 feet. In that case, while already attempting an Autoland, it would be a caution level alert. You get a four-tone beep as your aural part of the alert.

The other failures sound like they were Advisory level alerts, which show on EICAS without an aural component.

The Master Caution beeper, which lasts a few seconds, is not 20 sirens going off. Instruments weren't failing faster than your very bad attempt at a political analogy either.

Nothing you've said in any of your posts is even close to being technically accurate.
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:46 pm

KICT wrote:
"End of discussion. My plane is broken. I can't land there. Tell me where I can land."


I can't tell you where to land if I don't know what you are capable of....
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:50 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Are there any airports that can still do GCA's (ground controlled approach)? If everything dies except for one Comm radio.....


Nobody trained in how to fly them anymore


I hold a SRA rating and in Europe they are still trained for and flown...
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:18 pm

BREECH wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Sir Tim would be talking.

The 777 is the highest dispatch reliability widebody yet created (soon to be passed by the 787). If this was common, their would be a FAR and Sir Tim Clark wouldn't have bought so many 777s.

Pure speculation, but if proper ESD protocol wasn't followed by one individual, that could have created the issue. Don't get me started.. ESD meetings at work today. Ugh!!!

The 777 has the standard for redundancy all aircraft engineers are taught because it has worked so well for so long.

I would ask to look into AI shop practices. ESD isno joke.

Lightsaber

English, doc! What FAR and ESD?

And are you serious!? Clark is an OBE? That's news to me. I wonder what the statute read. "Valour and competence in creating newer and stronger competitors for British Airways"?

Welcome to a.net:. Federal aviation regulation. If an aircraft, avionics, or engine has issues, the FAA ruling on the fix. e.g., doublers on an A320. You alluded there was a regular problem. If so that generates a FAR.

ESD:. Electrostatic discharge. It is a source of many electronic component failures and a major concern in aircraft.
.if one technician was in the avionics bay without a ground strap working.. bad news. Classes are taught on this. Everyone who works manufacturing aircraft has to take a long course on it.

This is basic aircraft maintenance stuff. As in first day on the job classes. I

Lightsaber
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6621
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
BREECH wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Sir Tim would be talking.

The 777 is the highest dispatch reliability widebody yet created (soon to be passed by the 787). If this was common, their would be a FAR and Sir Tim Clark wouldn't have bought so many 777s.

Pure speculation, but if proper ESD protocol wasn't followed by one individual, that could have created the issue. Don't get me started.. ESD meetings at work today. Ugh!!!

The 777 has the standard for redundancy all aircraft engineers are taught because it has worked so well for so long.

I would ask to look into AI shop practices. ESD isno joke.

Lightsaber

English, doc! What FAR and ESD?

And are you serious!? Clark is an OBE? That's news to me. I wonder what the statute read. "Valour and competence in creating newer and stronger competitors for British Airways"?

Welcome to a.net:. Federal aviation regulation. If an aircraft, avionics, or engine has issues, the FAA ruling on the fix. e.g., doublers on an A320. You alluded there was a regular problem. If so that generates a FAR.

ESD:. Electrostatic discharge. It is a source of many electronic component failures and a major concern in aircraft.
.if one technician was in the avionics bay without a ground strap working.. bad news. Classes are taught on this. Everyone who works manufacturing aircraft has to take a long course on it.

This is basic aircraft maintenance stuff. As in first day on the job classes. I

Lightsaber


Actually what you describe is an Airworthiness Directive (AD) not a FAR. A FAR, otherwise known, as a CFR is a certification requirent. A Part 25 CFR is a design requirement for certification.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:39 am

wjcandee wrote:
The bottom line to me is that while I completely understand that this is the kind of thing that pilots are paid to deal with on a somewhat-regular basis, it's not completely-inappropriate to refer generally to the situation as an "emergency". The ceaseless nitpicky calling-out of participants in this forum by people (and I don't mean you here; I very much appreciate the civil, constructive tone to your response) is something that I wish we could do away with, because it stifles discussion and curiosity by those who are just learning the business.


ATC can put an airport on local standby for any number of reasons, it does not mean an emergency condition exists. It just means they are approaching with a defect, but not one that is expected to cause an unsafe landing. It activates the standby on-airport ARFF and emergency personnel

I simply ask, did the pilots declare
an emergency ?

If yes, they can bend/break rules. If no, they should not have conducted a ILS approach in LNAV/VNAV without the raw data available.

I was unaware of them declaring an emergency, so I do not know what authority they were acting under to fly the ILS in LNAV/VNAV. VNAV will not take into account temperature variations for this sort of approach. It will fly the incorrect vertical profile.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:45 am

zeke wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
zeke wrote:
Never heard anyone say it was an emergency


You're better than this, Zeke. Really.


Nothing would indicate it was an emergency, crew did not declare one, fuel state was fine.

Pilots deal with loss of functionality all the time, a lot of times this is due to ground equipment being under maintenance. This is not an emergency.

My personal take on the matter is if I do not have the required Navaids as specified on the chart, I do not commence the approach.

Would love to hear from experts if the FAA permits an ILS approach to be flown LNAV/VNAV without an ILS being displayed.

What is the LNAV/VNAV minima on that ILS approach ?


As far as I know, that isn’t the jurisdiction of the FAA. This would fall under the ministry of civil aviation in India. I am not aware of any FAA regulation covering what equipment is used by foreign operators on an approach as long as they fly the approach.

It didn’t sound like there were defined minima on the non conventional approach that they used, but I wasn’t there so I don’t know what happened
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8089
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:56 am

Where was it said they flew an ILS using LNAV/VNAV procedure? I gathered they flew to KEWR where the weather was sufficient to fly on the several LNAV/VNAV or LPV approaches.

GF
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:27 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Where was it said they flew an ILS using LNAV/VNAV procedure? I gathered they flew to KEWR where the weather was sufficient to fly on the several LNAV/VNAV or LPV approaches.

GF


On the ATC conversation, ATC cleared them for the ILS they told ATC they had no ILS indications and were going to fly it LNAV/VNAV.

On large aircraft the ILS/GLS/GPS receiver is the same unit. Something like a Collins GLU-925.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:34 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
As far as I know, that isn’t the jurisdiction of the FAA. This would fall under the ministry of civil aviation in India. I am not aware of any FAA regulation covering what equipment is used by foreign operators on an approach as long as they fly the approach.



All foreign airlines operate under a FAA Part 129 certificate, they have their own FAA approved Ops Spec on what they are allowed to do under the FAA jurisdiction. This includes the types of operations and approaches that can be conducted.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3646
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:40 am

zeke wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
As far as I know, that isn’t the jurisdiction of the FAA. This would fall under the ministry of civil aviation in India. I am not aware of any FAA regulation covering what equipment is used by foreign operators on an approach as long as they fly the approach.



All foreign airlines operate under a FAA Part 129 certificate, they have their own FAA approved Ops Spec on what they are allowed to do under the FAA jurisdiction. This includes the types of operations and approaches that can be conducted.


I didn’t realize the specific conditions of a procedure most likely not covered in the FCOM was under the jurisdiction of the FAA. Usually conforming to the ops spec is the home regulatory authorities jurisdiction.
 
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zeke
Posts: 16331
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:46 am

No international carriers are required to operate under both the rules of the state of registration, also the rules of the airspace they are operating in.

For example you would need an FAA autoland authorisation in the Part 129 ops spec to conduct an autoland for a particular type in the FAA jurisdiction. FAA autoland limits are different to other countries.

This is also how the FAA can prevent airlines from operating specific types it finds not meeting their standards in their airspace.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8089
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:31 am

Well, no, one can’t fly an ILS as an LNAV/VNAV approach, but seeing the landed on KEWR 04R and 04R doesn’t have an LNAV/VNAV approach (only 04L does); they did something different. They did MSAW warning, so maybe it was something “inventive”. 04R does have a GLS approach, if they fly those.

Yes, Zeke, I’m familiar with Collins and Honeywell architecture, but a fuzzy on how they can lose both sides. 4,000 hours on Honeywell and Collins in Global Express.


GF
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6621
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:36 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, no, one can’t fly an ILS as an LNAV/VNAV approach, but seeing the landed on KEWR 04R and 04R doesn’t have an LNAV/VNAV approach (only 04L does); they did something different. 04R does have a GLS approach, if they fly those.

Yes, Zeke, I’m familiar with Collins and Honeywell architecture, but a fuzzy on how they can lose both sides. 4,000 hours on Honeywell and Collins in Global Express.


GF


The 777 doesn’t have either GLS or IAN capability.
 
DL777200LR
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:15 am

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:38 am

BravoOne wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
Listen to the ATC tape and I could have sworn that they said their APU was inop? Did they do an ETOPS crossing without an APU?


An APU is not required for ETOPS on a B777.


I know that, but just because it's legal does not make it a good practice. Actually leaving home base for an ETOPS crossing is indicative of unsafe operating practices and most crews would turn it down. The BUGS (Back up generators) should keep you safe, but the ETOPS "preclude and protect" philosophy would seem to have taken a back seat in this case.



Completely untrue and I have personally deferred multiple APUs on 777s departing the US with the crew having no issues whatsoever. It is not a safety issue at all but is an inconvenience due to having to have an air start cart available for its turn. Both IDGs and BUGs operating normally allow the APU to be deferred if necessary. Obviously if it can be fixed that would be the best course of action but if it can’t then it can be deferred and does not mean the airline has unsafe operating practices.
 
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zeke
Posts: 16331
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Boeing 777-300ER Multiple Navigation Instrument Failure

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:56 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, no, one can’t fly an ILS as an LNAV/VNAV approach, but seeing the landed on KEWR 04R and 04R doesn’t have an LNAV/VNAV approach (only 04L does); they did something different. They did MSAW warning, so maybe it was something “inventive”. 04R does have a GLS approach, if they fly those.

Yes, Zeke, I’m familiar with Collins and Honeywell architecture, but a fuzzy on how they can lose both sides. 4,000 hours on Honeywell and Collins in Global Express.


GF


You can practically fly an ILS in LNAV/VNAV, raw data still needs to be displayed, and ILS tolerances followed. I think they flew the coded ILS approach in LNAV/VNAV (guess similar to a LOC) just using the FMC as the position and flight path source.

I know of no airline or flight manual that would permit that.

Like you I don’t know how they can drop all 3 receivers (L/C/R), however that MMR bulliten maybe a clue.

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