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Zoedyn
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China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:01 pm

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/br ... d-beijing/

Highlights of the biggest Chinese carrier’s plans disclosed in an interview with China Southern’s president and chief executive Tan Wan Geng at 2018 Guangzhou World Routes:

* to increase its fleet from 800 to 1,000 aircrafts by 2020, and further to 2,000 aircrafts by 2035

* to fly to South America within the next three years

* to open more African destinations

* to increase frequencies on current longhaul routes from CAN

* to serve the whole Chinese market with the addition of its northern hub at Beijing Daxing

* To explore new ways of cooperation with LCCs

Amazing plans. I’d like to wish them the best of luck and success in their endeavors to be a genuine world-class player on the global aviation scene
 
SCQ83
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:39 pm

Guangzhou to Boston, Chicago and Madrid are big holes in their network.
 
TC957
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:50 pm

Sorry if I missed it, but has any further news come up from this conference about when route duplication is allowed ? I mean having more than one airline on any particular route. There was talk recently about the Chinese Govt allowing this.
This will clearly affect CZ if they want to expand from Beijing.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:01 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Guangzhou to Boston, Chicago and Madrid are big holes in their network.


Can't speak for MAD, but both BOS & ORD are about at their max with the amount of Asian service they can handle. AA has recently dropped a couple Asian routes from ORD and KE just announced BOS. Not sure where CZ would fit really with both cities being covered pretty well already.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:04 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Guangzhou to Boston, Chicago and Madrid are big holes in their network.


Guangzhou-Boston? That's the kind of thinking that causes average fares to drop right through the floor. Guangzhou isn't Tokyo or Seoul, not with the business connections nor large population of upper incomes.
 
SCQ83
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:07 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Guangzhou to Boston, Chicago and Madrid are big holes in their network.


Guangzhou-Boston? That's the kind of thinking that causes average fares to drop right through the floor. Guangzhou isn't Tokyo or Seoul, not with the business connections nor large population of upper incomes.


Sichuan is due to start Chengdu-Boston. CAN is a much bigger market than CTU and with the new high-speed train opening this month between Hong Kong and Guangzhou, they could even take some O&D traffic from Cathay on HKG-Boston.
 
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3BNBE
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:17 pm

The Mauritian government has recently announced to be in talk with 2 Chinese carriers to start service to Mauritius as since China Southern left Mauritius back in 2015, there has been a downfall in the number of Chinese tourists to Mauritius. Maybe we'll soon see CZ back between Shenzhen and Mauritius! It's worth to be noted that during recent years, Mauritius has been the first African country to be connected with Shenzhen, Chengdu and Wuhan while Air Mauritius was the first African airline to fly to Shanghai
 
tphuang
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:21 pm

I am really not sure how daxing would be able to compete in yields with pek. Seems like they will struggle against ca for the Beijing market.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:31 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Guangzhou to Boston, Chicago and Madrid are big holes in their network.


Guangzhou-Boston? That's the kind of thinking that causes average fares to drop right through the floor. Guangzhou isn't Tokyo or Seoul, not with the business connections nor large population of upper incomes.


Sichuan is due to start Chengdu-Boston. CAN is a much bigger market than CTU and with the new high-speed train opening this month between Hong Kong and Guangzhou, they could even take some O&D traffic from Cathay on HKG-Boston.


I repeat...and will repeat again. Any routes like CAN-BOS may take traffic from HKG-BOS, but it'll be taking traffic from Guangzhou-origin traffic that are traveling down to HKG right now, instead of HKG-based O&D traffic. It's a pain to get from either Guangzhou South or Guangzhou North Station to Baiyun Airport. For all those wasted time and transfer after transfer after transfer for somebody based in HK, that person might as well just connect at PEK on HU if they want to go "cheap".

Once they finish that rail link from GZ North Station to Baiyun Airport, then yes, access will improved. It still doesn't change the fact that it's transfer after transfer after transfer. HSR ticket is not free, either.
 
rbavfan
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:59 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Guangzhou to Boston, Chicago and Madrid are big holes in their network.


Can't speak for MAD, but both BOS & ORD are about at their max with the amount of Asian service they can handle. AA has recently dropped a couple Asian routes from ORD and KE just announced BOS. Not sure where CZ would fit really with both cities being covered pretty well already.


AA dropping does not mean they are maxed out passenger wise. It just means prices are so low it makes more sense to route from other higher yield city pairs. Which is what AA is doing. Why Fly ORD-China when DFW or LAX china has for instance 2-3% better yield on a route.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:14 pm

rbavfan wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Guangzhou to Boston, Chicago and Madrid are big holes in their network.


Can't speak for MAD, but both BOS & ORD are about at their max with the amount of Asian service they can handle. AA has recently dropped a couple Asian routes from ORD and KE just announced BOS. Not sure where CZ would fit really with both cities being covered pretty well already.


AA dropping does not mean they are maxed out passenger wise. It just means prices are so low it makes more sense to route from other higher yield city pairs. Which is what AA is doing. Why Fly ORD-China when DFW or LAX china has for instance 2-3% better yield on a route.


Why would one fly a connection through DFW or LAX when they can fly non-stop ORD-China for cheaper?
 
chonetsao
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:20 pm

Good luck. Has Delta, Korean, Air France and China Eastern, plus also Aerofloat who wants to become a big players in the same alliance I somehow doubt they can attract the already crowded business travellers market. And that is not to mention the number one flag carrier Air China in the door step who would let go of CZ's ambitions. So, good luck.
 
tphuang
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:02 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Guangzhou-Boston? That's the kind of thinking that causes average fares to drop right through the floor. Guangzhou isn't Tokyo or Seoul, not with the business connections nor large population of upper incomes.


Sichuan is due to start Chengdu-Boston. CAN is a much bigger market than CTU and with the new high-speed train opening this month between Hong Kong and Guangzhou, they could even take some O&D traffic from Cathay on HKG-Boston.


I repeat...and will repeat again. Any routes like CAN-BOS may take traffic from HKG-BOS, but it'll be taking traffic from Guangzhou-origin traffic that are traveling down to HKG right now, instead of HKG-based O&D traffic. It's a pain to get from either Guangzhou South or Guangzhou North Station to Baiyun Airport. For all those wasted time and transfer after transfer after transfer for somebody based in HK, that person might as well just connect at PEK on HU if they want to go "cheap".

Once they finish that rail link from GZ North Station to Baiyun Airport, then yes, access will improved. It still doesn't change the fact that it's transfer after transfer after transfer. HSR ticket is not free, either.


Agreed 100% on that. Can is not an alternative airport option for people in Hong Kong.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:10 am

TC957 wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but has any further news come up from this conference about when route duplication is allowed ? I mean having more than one airline on any particular route. There was talk recently about the Chinese Govt allowing this.
This will clearly affect CZ if they want to expand from Beijing.


I guess this thread gives a good clue to the issue you raised

CAAC rolls out game-changing policies abandoning “One Route One Carrier” restriction in a gradual manner
viewtopic.php?t=1394075

So, absolutely there will be route duplications for Beijing-originated intercontinental longhaul services, as Beijing Daxing International Airport is soon to open on Sept 30th next year

High time to upend CA’s notorious near-monopoly of the premium aviation market of Beijing, a monopoly that must be condemned and gotten ridden of because it’s been gained in an utterly unfair and unjust regulatory environment manipulated by a reactionary force backing the so called flag carrier behind the scene
 
5NFGS
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:08 am

Zoedyn wrote:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/280584/china-southern-plots-global-growth-from-guangzhou-and-beijing/

Highlights of the biggest Chinese carrier’s plans disclosed in an interview with China Southern’s president and chief executive Tan Wan Geng at 2018 Guangzhou World Routes:

* to increase its fleet from 800 to 1,000 aircrafts by 2020, and further to 2,000 aircrafts by 2035

* to fly to South America within the next three years

* to open more African destinations

* to increase frequencies on current longhaul routes from CAN

* to serve the whole Chinese market with the addition of its northern hub at Beijing Daxing

* To explore new ways of cooperation with LCCs

Amazing plans. I’d like to wish them the best of luck and success in their endeavors to be a genuine world-class player on the global aviation scene


I smell a return to LOS and MRU!!
A 319/320/321,A 330-200/300, A 340-300/500/600, B 737-300/400/500,B 737-700/800,B 747-300/400,B 767-200 ER/300 ER, B 777-200/200 ER,CRJ 200/900/1000,DHC-8-300/Q 300, DC-10, ERJ-195,MD-11
 
David_itl
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:20 pm

Here we go of what;'s expected out of CAN so some of the "gaps" appear to be about to be filled:
"Mr. Wen Wenxing, the General Manager GAA announced new routes due to fly from Guangzhou in partnership with China Southern to destinations including Rome, Madrid, Milan, Copenhagen, Istanbul, Calcutta, Islamabad, Chicago, Seattle, Boston, Tel Aviv, Tehran and more. Wenxing also announced new routes in cooperation with Hainan Airlines, Siberia Airlines, JC Internationals Airlines and Ethiopian Airlines to destinations including Manchester, Siem Reap, San Diego and Oslo among others. The routes are due to launch between 2018 and 2020."

https://ftnnews.com/aviation/34947-about-30-new-international-flight-routes-from-chinese-city-of-guangzhou
 
dcajet
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:17 pm

This is consistent with previous announcements (from last year) that the airline intends to fly to both Argentina and Brazil in the next couple of years:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article ... expand-its
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MaverickM11
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:53 am

Zoedyn wrote:
* to fly to South America within the next three years

* to open more African destinations


* Lose E-normous amounts of money in the process...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
planemanofnz
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:00 am

Regarding South America, where will the transit stop be? I've heard AKL mentioned before - would SYD, MEL, LAX and anyone else also be in the running? Issues like fifth-freedom rights and transit visas don't seem to be a deal-breaker for CZ, given their YVR - MEX tag.

Cheers,

C.
 
dcajet
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:43 pm

planemanofnz wrote:
Regarding South America, where will the transit stop be? I've heard AKL mentioned before - would SYD, MEL, LAX and anyone else also be in the running? Issues like fifth-freedom rights and transit visas don't seem to be a deal-breaker for CZ, given their YVR - MEX tag.

Cheers,

C.


No such level of detail has been provided by CZ, but there are basically 3 possibilities:

1. China - North America (US/Canada) - Argentina/Brazil

2. China - South Africa - Argentina/Brazil

3. China - AU/NZ - Argentina/Brazil
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
SonaSounds
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:07 pm

Zoedyn wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but has any further news come up from this conference about when route duplication is allowed ? I mean having more than one airline on any particular route. There was talk recently about the Chinese Govt allowing this.
This will clearly affect CZ if they want to expand from Beijing.


I guess this thread gives a good clue to the issue you raised

CAAC rolls out game-changing policies abandoning “One Route One Carrier” restriction in a gradual manner
viewtopic.php?t=1394075

So, absolutely there will be route duplications for Beijing-originated intercontinental longhaul services, as Beijing Daxing International Airport is soon to open on Sept 30th next year

High time to upend CA’s notorious near-monopoly of the premium aviation market of Beijing, a monopoly that must be condemned and gotten ridden of because it’s been gained in an utterly unfair and unjust regulatory environment manipulated by a reactionary force backing the so called flag carrier behind the scene


The problem is the current bilaterals limit the TOTAL number of flights Chinese carriers and USA carriers can do between China and the United States. The one route one carrier China rule is a separate issue. The Chinese carriers are pretty much at 100% of the total routes they can fly between the China and the USA while the USA carriers are at about 70%. Even if this rule does change you will likely see cancellation of other China carrier routes to make room for extra flights on these "trunk routes". This is why changing the rule has been in limbo for so long.....
 
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:20 pm

SonaSounds wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but has any further news come up from this conference about when route duplication is allowed ? I mean having more than one airline on any particular route. There was talk recently about the Chinese Govt allowing this.
This will clearly affect CZ if they want to expand from Beijing.


I guess this thread gives a good clue to the issue you raised

CAAC rolls out game-changing policies abandoning “One Route One Carrier” restriction in a gradual manner
viewtopic.php?t=1394075

So, absolutely there will be route duplications for Beijing-originated intercontinental longhaul services, as Beijing Daxing International Airport is soon to open on Sept 30th next year

High time to upend CA’s notorious near-monopoly of the premium aviation market of Beijing, a monopoly that must be condemned and gotten ridden of because it’s been gained in an utterly unfair and unjust regulatory environment manipulated by a reactionary force backing the so called flag carrier behind the scene


The problem is the current bilaterals limit the TOTAL number of flights Chinese carriers and USA carriers can do between China and the United States. The one route one carrier China rule is a separate issue. The Chinese carriers are pretty much at 100% of the total routes they can fly between the China and the USA while the USA carriers are at about 70%. Even if this rule does change you will likely see cancellation of other China carrier routes to make room for extra flights on these "trunk routes". This is why changing the rule has been in limbo for so long.....

The issue is Chinese airlines are subsidized domestically, which the US wants limited as part of any bilateral rights increase. Chinese airlines will just have to buy 779 or A380. :devil:

China could change the rules they impose. Eventually, they need deregulation with a known regional scheme.

Eventually fares will rise, US airlines will increase service, and then they will ask for a bilateral change.

Lightsaber
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:44 am

To explore new ways of cooperation with LCCs


Surely this piece of news is a good illustration of that

http://www.atimes.com/article/spring-ai ... -airlines/

Shanghai-based low-cost carrier Spring Airlines has bought a stake worth 846 million yuan (US$122.78 million) in China Southern Airline’s A-share non-public offering, becoming the fifth largest shareholder of CZ

9C said it is actively responding to the call of the Chinese government to deepen state-owned enterprises' mixed ownership reform aimed at boosting strategic cooperation between state-owned capital and private capital and stimulating capital vitality


Given 9C is China's largest LCC operator and CZ is the largest Chinese airline by fleet size, it'll be enormously interesting to see how their cooperation plays out

dcajet wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Regarding South America, where will the transit stop be? I've heard AKL mentioned before - would SYD, MEL, LAX and anyone else also be in the running? Issues like fifth-freedom rights and transit visas don't seem to be a deal-breaker for CZ, given their YVR - MEX tag.

Cheers,

C.


No such level of detail has been provided by CZ, but there are basically 3 possibilities:

1. China - North America (US/Canada) - Argentina/Brazil

2. China - South Africa - Argentina/Brazil

3. China - AU/NZ - Argentina/Brazil


I read somewhere in Chinese press that CZ's CEO did mention Oceania as a potential transit point for their planned flights btwn China and South America in the next few years. If the plan became true, that would surely be an intriguing 5th-freedom route
 
planemanofnz
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:09 am

How will CZ expand from Beijing given the issue of i) slots, and ii) airspace congestion?

Cheers,

C.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:59 am

http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... 92264.html

http://www.caac.gov.cn/XXGK/XXGK/TZTG/2 ... 92993.html

As per the public notices by CAAC on its website, China Southern has applied for route authority for the following proposed services:

CAN—MAD, daily on A333/A332/B77W from Mar 2019

CAN—TLV, daily on A333/A332/B787 from Feb 2019

CAN—URC—VIE, 3 times/week on A332/B77W/B787 from Mar 2019

CAN—KMG—ISB, 3 times/week A332/A330/A321/B738 from Dec 2018

CAN—HEL, daily from July 2019 (aircraft type unspecified)

CAN—IKA, daily from July 2019 (aircraft type unspecified)


These proposed routes clearly illustrate CZ’s steadfast efforts to implement its strategy of global expansion from its home hub Guangzhou

Here the selection of MAD and HEL is particularly noteworthy given CZ's recent announcement of leaving SkyTeam to forge new partnerships with other airlines around the world, as IB and AY, both being Oneworld members, can be ideal partners for CZ to expand globally in a mutually beneficial manner
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:17 am

CAN-DFW. You heard it here first.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
mfe777
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:02 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
CAN-DFW. You heard it here first.


There was a thread about this rumor a couple weeks ago. Do you have any new information on this? Very exciting development for DFW. Its first Chinese flag carrier, and first nonstop link to Guangzhou.
 
Nami
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:55 pm

This is like the fifth or sixth time a Chinese carrier applies for rights to fly from China to HEL yet none have come true. So I wouldn’t read too much into this albeit CZ’s withdrawal from SkyTeam is an interesting development. However Finnair and Juneyao Airlines recently signed a MoU regarding the latter’s planned route from PVG so who knows, maybe some sort of a CZ and AY co-operation could be in the works as well.
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:20 pm

Nami wrote:
This is like the fifth or sixth time a Chinese carrier applies for rights to fly from China to HEL yet none have come true. So I wouldn’t read too much into this albeit CZ’s withdrawal from SkyTeam is an interesting development. However Finnair and Juneyao Airlines recently signed a MoU regarding the latter’s planned route from PVG so who knows, maybe some sort of a CZ and AY co-operation could be in the works as well.

This is the fifth time:
    Beijing Capital Airlines: PEK-HEL, 3x weekly
    Lucky Air: KMG-CTU-HEL, 2x weekly
    Tibet Airlines: TNA-HEL, 3x weekly
    Juneyao Airlines: PVG-HEL, 7x weekly
    China Southern: CAN-HEL, 7x weekly

I hope that at least these two lowest ones will be launched. I rely more on CZ than smaller airlines like Beijing Capital and Lucky Air.
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
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TWA772LR
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:15 pm

mfe777 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
CAN-DFW. You heard it here first.


There was a thread about this rumor a couple weeks ago. Do you have any new information on this? Very exciting development for DFW. Its first Chinese flag carrier, and first nonstop link to Guangzhou.

Honestly? I don't. Its just a gut feeling. The signs are pointing towards it because CZ is cozying up to Oneworld (probably to jump ship from Sky Team) and AA.

This is the same gut feeling I had when I pitched IAH-SYD to UA (actually happened and I have proof that I did); and suggested that ET should fly to IAH (literally got laughed at here, but they secured traffic rights earlier this year).
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Overthecascades
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:17 pm

mfe777 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
CAN-DFW. You heard it here first.


There was a thread about this rumor a couple weeks ago. Do you have any new information on this? Very exciting development for DFW. Its first Chinese flag carrier, and first nonstop link to Guangzhou.


Not to nitpick. CZ is NOT the flag carrier of China. Only Air China is.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:22 pm

mfe777 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
CAN-DFW. You heard it here first.


There was a thread about this rumor a couple weeks ago. Do you have any new information on this? Very exciting development for DFW. Its first Chinese flag carrier, and first nonstop link to Guangzhou.


For a minute I thought I was reading the Michigan thread.
 
DGVT
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:25 pm

Maybe Zoedyn or some other Chinese Members can tell me if CAN is as generous with subsidies as some other Chinese cities? If I remember correctly Tier 1 Cities aren't really into that (anymore)?
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:38 am

http://www.cnr.cn/gd/gdkx/20181103/t201 ... 3723.shtml

The China National Radio report says China Southern has grown its fleet to 800 aircraft by early Nov this year, ranking the world’s 3rd largest airline by fleet size

Timeline for CZ’s fleet growth
100 aircraft by 1998
200 aircraft by 2003
300 aircraft by 2007
400 aircraft by 2010
500 aircraft by 2013
600 aircraft by 2014
700 aircraft by 2016
800 aircraft by 2018


Such growth trajectory leaves little doubt CZ shall hit 1,000 aircraft by 2020

How will CZ expand from Beijing given the issue of i) slots, and ii) airspace congestion?


Such issues I believe will be the least worry for CZ for expansion in Beijing as the Chinese capital is soon to open one other new mega-airport Beijing Daxing International Airport/ZBAD on Sept 30th next year

CZ is scheduled to relocate its Beijing hub there as a coveted major anchor tenant with an allocated 40% traffic volume of the new airport, a move representing a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity for the airline for robust growth in Beijing

Due to Daxing’s opening, CAAC has at last been compelled to ease its policy of “One Route One Carrier”, a notorious policy that had effectively blocked CZ to start longhaul intercontinental services from Beijing to the massive unjustified benefit of the so called “flag carrier” CA

Now with policy laxation, CZ will be able to fly from its Daxing hub to ever more popular longhaul intercontinental destinations like LON, NYC, PAR, etc, apart from opening new long thin Daxing-originated routes, competing head-on with CA that can no longer maintain monopoly over Beijing aviation by sheltering behind an appallingly ill-conceived regime

CZ has reportedly vowed to deploy about 250 aircraft at its Daxing hub in the next few years after it opens, which I believe is by no means bluff nor pipe dream but CZ’s real growth target for the lucrative Beijing market. The upcoming establishment of a subsidiary Xiongan Airlines to be based at Daxing and its recently announced withdrawal from SkyTeam both are a powerful statement of CZ’s ambition and well-thought-out action plans to pursue its CAN-BJS dual-hub strategy

Maybe Zoedyn or some other Chinese Members can tell me if CAN is as generous with subsidies as some other Chinese cities? If I remember correctly Tier 1 Cities aren't really into that (anymore)?


A big yes there, even Shanghai included. The thread below sheds some light on that

Crunching numbers of Chinese governmental subsidies on international routes: A sneak peek
viewtopic.php?t=1395817
 
planemanofnz
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:35 am

Zoedyn wrote:
Daxing ... CZ is scheduled to relocate its Beijing hub there as a coveted major anchor tenant with an allocated 40% traffic volume of the new airport, a move representing a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity for the airline for robust growth in Beijing

Can you please provide a source which says that:

a) Beijing Capital / Beijing Daxing will be treated differently for the 'one route, one airline' policy (allowing CZ to fly BJS - LON / NYC / PAR, as you say)

b) Beijing Daxing will see new slots for CZ to expand with, despite the fact that Greater Beijing's airspace will still face the same amount of congestion

Cheers,

C.
 
75WFlyer
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:00 am

I’m very curious how CZ would be able to add Beijing to U.S. flights as frequencies to the U.S from tier 1 China are limited and I believe maxed out for Chinese carriers.

Similarly, where would the slots for places like LHR come from? Would CZ drop CAN frequencies to shift to Daxing? It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out as I can’t imagine the U.S. nor many of the large EU countries being terribly thrilled about CZ dumping capacity in the market. In the current economic landscape, the last thing needed for Chinese aviation is more international capacity - yields are already trash and subsidies are running rampant for international services. I’m not sure if any of the Chinese carriers turn a profit on international - I’m guessing their profits are all from domestic.
 
Swadian
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:56 am

75WFlyer wrote:
I’m very curious how CZ would be able to add Beijing to U.S. flights as frequencies to the U.S from tier 1 China are limited and I believe maxed out for Chinese carriers.

Similarly, where would the slots for places like LHR come from? Would CZ drop CAN frequencies to shift to Daxing? It’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out as I can’t imagine the U.S. nor many of the large EU countries being terribly thrilled about CZ dumping capacity in the market. In the current economic landscape, the last thing needed for Chinese aviation is more international capacity - yields are already trash and subsidies are running rampant for international services. I’m not sure if any of the Chinese carriers turn a profit on international - I’m guessing their profits are all from domestic.


CZ has not announced any routes from Beijing to the US. Perhaps they will go for CAN-DFW first and try to expand WUH and URC. They have a big enough bottomless pit of subsides that using LGW probably won't be out of the question.
John Wang, Founder and President of Inland Streamliner.
 
Scorpio
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:59 am

Zoedyn wrote:
http://www.cnr.cn/gd/gdkx/20181103/t20181103_524403723.shtml

[i]The China National Radio report says China Southern has grown its fleet to 800 aircraft by early Nov this year, ranking the world’s 3rd largest airline by fleet size



800 aircraft? Both airfleets.net and wikipedia say the fleet is around 590 aircraft. What are we missing?
 
C010T3
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:40 am

Zoedyn wrote:
* to fly to South America within the next three years

* to open more African destinations


Well, that could be combined.

In terms of equipment range, it will be an issue to reach South America without an intermediate stop. The closest point to South America which could reached and also being interesting as a connecting gateway would be PTY, but only from PEK of course.

Considering the weight of the Chinese economic interests, it would be feasible to imagine that they could gain fifth freedom rights in South Africa. There is a missing link between CPT and South America. Perhaps we could see a PEK-CPT-GRU flight or if they don't see PEK as the gateway, since Air China already flies to PEK-MAD-GRU, which might create an impediment with the CAAC. CAN-JNB-GRU would also be an alternative.
 
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3BNBE
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:43 pm

C010T3 wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
* to fly to South America within the next three years

* to open more African destinations


Well, that could be combined.

In terms of equipment range, it will be an issue to reach South America without an intermediate stop. The closest point to South America which could reached and also being interesting as a connecting gateway would be PTY, but only from PEK of course.

Considering the weight of the Chinese economic interests, it would be feasible to imagine that they could gain fifth freedom rights in South Africa. There is a missing link between CPT and South America. Perhaps we could see a PEK-CPT-GRU flight or if they don't see PEK as the gateway, since Air China already flies to PEK-MAD-GRU, which might create an impediment with the CAAC. CAN-JNB-GRU would also be an alternative.

Does anyone know how Air China is doing on PEK-JNB route? Air China occasionally decreased the number of flights from 3 to 2 this year. China-South Africa market is a rather big market, taking into account both tourism and business travellers. Is it that ET, EK, CX and SQ capture the biggest traffic as they have more frequencies and more destinations in China? CX has already reduced the number of flights to JNB seasonally this year too...is there also a decrease in the number of Chinese tourists visiting South Africa or South African going to China due to the depreciation of the Rand?
 
chonetsao
Posts: 272
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:21 pm

3BNBE wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
* to fly to South America within the next three years

* to open more African destinations


Well, that could be combined.

In terms of equipment range, it will be an issue to reach South America without an intermediate stop. The closest point to South America which could reached and also being interesting as a connecting gateway would be PTY, but only from PEK of course.

Considering the weight of the Chinese economic interests, it would be feasible to imagine that they could gain fifth freedom rights in South Africa. There is a missing link between CPT and South America. Perhaps we could see a PEK-CPT-GRU flight or if they don't see PEK as the gateway, since Air China already flies to PEK-MAD-GRU, which might create an impediment with the CAAC. CAN-JNB-GRU would also be an alternative.

Does anyone know how Air China is doing on PEK-JNB route? Air China occasionally decreased the number of flights from 3 to 2 this year. China-South Africa market is a rather big market, taking into account both tourism and business travellers. Is it that ET, EK, CX and SQ capture the biggest traffic as they have more frequencies and more destinations in China? CX has already reduced the number of flights to JNB seasonally this year too...is there also a decrease in the number of Chinese tourists visiting South Africa or South African going to China due to the depreciation of the Rand?


It is bad. Visa restriction and safety concerns is stopping mass Chinese tourists to South Africa. Air China is moving PEK JNB to SZX JNB soon as this route currently struggles. Air China reckon most traffic to South Africa is from pearl delta area so the move from PEK to SZX.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:09 am

So, less than two weeks after CZ’s announcement to leave SkyTeam, CZ and AA are happily joining hands for ever closer cooperation. That is so quick and efficient

As per CZ’s Weibo account (https://m.weibo.cn/1647687670/4311358953175888), CZ and AA today signed a package of deals in Guangzhou to significantly boost cooperation in codesharing, frequent flyer program, lounge amenities starting from January 2019, just exactly after CZ’s withdrawal from ST

Codeshares would not only include major Sino-US routes the two airlines fly on (CZ’s CAN-LAX/SFO/NYC, CAN-WUH-SFO, SHE-LAX; AA’s DFW-PEK/PVG, LAX-PEK/PVG), but also extend to a good many domestic routes in China and the US operated by either party (20 Chinese cities from BJS and PVG, 21 US cities from LAX, SFO, NYC)

Congrats to CZ and AA for this long overdue cooperation

Image
Pic via China Southern
 
GRJGeorge
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:23 pm

chonetsao wrote:
3BNBE wrote:
C010T3 wrote:

Well, that could be combined.

In terms of equipment range, it will be an issue to reach South America without an intermediate stop. The closest point to South America which could reached and also being interesting as a connecting gateway would be PTY, but only from PEK of course.

Considering the weight of the Chinese economic interests, it would be feasible to imagine that they could gain fifth freedom rights in South Africa. There is a missing link between CPT and South America. Perhaps we could see a PEK-CPT-GRU flight or if they don't see PEK as the gateway, since Air China already flies to PEK-MAD-GRU, which might create an impediment with the CAAC. CAN-JNB-GRU would also be an alternative.

Does anyone know how Air China is doing on PEK-JNB route? Air China occasionally decreased the number of flights from 3 to 2 this year. China-South Africa market is a rather big market, taking into account both tourism and business travellers. Is it that ET, EK, CX and SQ capture the biggest traffic as they have more frequencies and more destinations in China? CX has already reduced the number of flights to JNB seasonally this year too...is there also a decrease in the number of Chinese tourists visiting South Africa or South African going to China due to the depreciation of the Rand?


It is bad. Visa restriction and safety concerns is stopping mass Chinese tourists to South Africa. Air China is moving PEK JNB to SZX JNB soon as this route currently struggles. Air China reckon most traffic to South Africa is from pearl delta area so the move from PEK to SZX.



Have you got any more info on this switch to SZX, can't find any info on this? Always thought the 77W is maybe too much for this route, they should have rather gone for 787 on this route.
I believe CZ should be able to do better with a CAN-JNB route.
 
chonetsao
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:22 pm

GRJGeorge wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
3BNBE wrote:
Does anyone know how Air China is doing on PEK-JNB route? Air China occasionally decreased the number of flights from 3 to 2 this year. China-South Africa market is a rather big market, taking into account both tourism and business travellers. Is it that ET, EK, CX and SQ capture the biggest traffic as they have more frequencies and more destinations in China? CX has already reduced the number of flights to JNB seasonally this year too...is there also a decrease in the number of Chinese tourists visiting South Africa or South African going to China due to the depreciation of the Rand?


It is bad. Visa restriction and safety concerns is stopping mass Chinese tourists to South Africa. Air China is moving PEK JNB to SZX JNB soon as this route currently struggles. Air China reckon most traffic to South Africa is from pearl delta area so the move from PEK to SZX.



Have you got any more info on this switch to SZX, can't find any info on this? Always thought the 77W is maybe too much for this route, they should have rather gone for 787 on this route.
I believe CZ should be able to do better with a CAN-JNB route.


Air China applied to CAAC back in September that it's JNB route will be changed to PEK SZX JNB instead of PEK JNB nonstop from January 2019. Three weekly with B777-300ER. The application date was 19th September 2018 if you are interested to look for yourself. But I don't have a start date yet as the application vaguely mention the start date would be in January 2019.
 
workhorse
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:58 pm

C010T3 wrote:
In terms of equipment range, it will be an issue to reach South America without an intermediate stop. The closest point to South America which could reached and also being interesting as a connecting gateway would be PTY, but only from PEK of course.


How much of South America would be reachable from PEK with the future "Project Sunrise" airplane (whatever it will be...)?
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:34 pm

C010T3 wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
* to fly to South America within the next three years

* to open more African destinations


Well, that could be combined.

In terms of equipment range, it will be an issue to reach South America without an intermediate stop. The closest point to South America which could reached and also being interesting as a connecting gateway would be PTY, but only from PEK of course.

Considering the weight of the Chinese economic interests, it would be feasible to imagine that they could gain fifth freedom rights in South Africa. There is a missing link between CPT and South America. Perhaps we could see a PEK-CPT-GRU flight or if they don't see PEK as the gateway, since Air China already flies to PEK-MAD-GRU, which might create an impediment with the CAAC. CAN-JNB-GRU would also be an alternative.


Agree

ET is already pioneering the path in cargo service

Per the Guangming Daily report 郑州首条经非洲至南美洲洲际货运航线顺利首航, ET has recently launched a cargo route btwn South America and Zhengzhou/CGO via ADD from Nov 17, carrying hundreds of tons of fresh cherries from Chile to China

This ground-breaking air cargo corridor is surely promising for closer China-Africa-South America economic exchanges with further potential to tap

Maybe South America-China pax service via Africa can happen one day, though enormous challenges exist as opposed to other connecting points in Europe, N America or Oceania
 
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3BNBE
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:58 am

chonetsao wrote:
GRJGeorge wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

It is bad. Visa restriction and safety concerns is stopping mass Chinese tourists to South Africa. Air China is moving PEK JNB to SZX JNB soon as this route currently struggles. Air China reckon most traffic to South Africa is from pearl delta area so the move from PEK to SZX.



Have you got any more info on this switch to SZX, can't find any info on this? Always thought the 77W is maybe too much for this route, they should have rather gone for 787 on this route.
I believe CZ should be able to do better with a CAN-JNB route.


Air China applied to CAAC back in September that it's JNB route will be changed to PEK SZX JNB instead of PEK JNB nonstop from January 2019. Three weekly with B777-300ER. The application date was 19th September 2018 if you are interested to look for yourself. But I don't have a start date yet as the application vaguely mention the start date would be in January 2019.

Here it is!
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-changes/

Air China from January 2019 is adjusting service to South Africa, reflected in last week’s schedule update. From 03JAN19, the Star Alliance carrier will operate Beijing – Shenzhen – Johannesburg route, replacing current nonstop Beijing – Johannesburg routing. Boeing 777-300ER continues to serve tis route 3 times a week.

CA867 PEK1850 – 2230SZX0005+1 - 0725+1JNB 773 7
CA867 PEK1850 – 2230SZX0020+1 – 0805+1JNB 773 2
CA867 PEK1850 – 2220SZX0010+1 – 0755+1JNB 773 4

CA868 JNB1015 – 0505+1SZX0655+1 – 1005+1PEK 773 15
CA868 JNB1025 – 0515+1SZX0655+1 – 1005+1PEK 773 3
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:38 am

http://www.caac.gov.cn/PHONE/XXGK_17/XX ... 93275.html

CAAC has released on its website a list of newly approved routes proposed by various domestic and international airlines, according to which CZ has secured approval for:
CAN-MAD
CAN-TLV
CAN-URC-VIE
CAN-KMG-ISB


Meanwhile CZ’s other proposals CAN-HEL, CAN-IKA are absent from the list, suggesting the two got denied for reasons unknown to the public

Such an application outcome seems to me imperfect but passable. But it still sets you wondering what prevented CAAC from giving CZ go-ahead for CAN-HEL/IKA

Below is CZ’s route map featuring its current international/intercontinental services out of China

It shows Southeast Asia is where CZ is the strongest in its international network concentrating operations out of its home hub CAN, while Central Asia is fairly well covered by its northwestern URC hub

Intercontinentally, CZ has strength in Oceania

Its network in Europe and North America is still sketchy

Its presence in Africa is minimal with just one route

While S America is simply a gaping hole

Indeed a long way to go for CZ to be a truly GLOBAL player. But this is a good beginning anyway

Image
Map via VariFlight.com
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:48 am

Zoedyn wrote:

Meanwhile CZ’s other proposals CAN-HEL, CAN-IKA are absent from the list, suggesting the two got denied for reasons unknown to the public


CAPA wrote on 21 November 2018 that CAAC granted approval to these two routes. Airlineroute also on 20 November that wrote that CAAC "intends to approve" these routes. If that's incorrect, I hope the absence of the routes from the list means that CAAC hasn't approved the routes yet but hasn't either denied them.

CAN-HEL and CAN-IKA were also the only two routes that didn't have specified aircraft type in the application. Could that be the reason if they got denied meaning that the aircraft type should be given to get the approval?
ATL, AYT, FRA, FUE, HEL, JFK, LCA, LHR, MUC | AY, BA, DL, FH, LH, LO | A320, A321, A333, 752, 764, 772, 788
The word "Quawer" means nothing but it looks great.
 
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Zoedyn
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Re: China Southern plots global growth from Guangzhou and Beijing

Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:18 pm

https://m.weibo.cn/1647687670/4317457403901480

Per CZ’s Weibo account, at 6:24 in the early morning today, Boeing’s 787th B787 Dreamliner with a special livery arrived at CAN. Registered B-1168, it is also the 8th B787-9 aircraft for CZ. The airline has another ten B787-8s in its fleet

Congrats to CZ for taking delivery of this beautiful metal with special significance

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Image
Pics via China Southern

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