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Bobloblaw
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:46 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Government needs to stay out of it.

They did pass the DEREGULATION Act of 1978.



agreed
 
Austin787
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:47 am

They already sell tickets which are non-changeable: basic economy.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:06 am

VS11 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:

Why is this a one way street?


It is not a one way street. Customers do have protections when travel is disrupted or canceled, and most airlines do try to accommodate pax in such cases. Flight times though are not guaranteed and form no part of the contract between you and the airline. Here is AA Conditions of Carriage. See the section on Responsibility on Schedules and Operations:

https://www.aa.com/intl/es/footer_en/co ... rriage.jsp

It is a one way street. AA can and has changed my flight times because of a scheduling change they made after I booked. I paid more money to be on an 8AM flight, I could have flown a competitor for $50 less but I wanted to wake up at 5AM rather than 4. AA pushed my flight to 715, I paid more money for nothing. If my plans changed and I couldn’t make that flight I would have been SOL.

The contract of carriage is A-symmetrical power, I can’t counter that, and outside of WN, it really isn’t much difference between the carriers, basically my choice is exhorbinant change fees, unchangeable, and a refundable economy seat that costs more than a non refundable first class ticket. I cannot send an airline a counter contract and negotiate the terms.

Also, they can cancel my flight, as Sun Country tried to do in Mexico, and are under no obligation to do anything more than refund my original airfare, despite the fact that at this point a new flight is likely significantly more expensive.

A-symmetrical power.
 
VS11
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:16 am

Yossarian22 wrote:

A-symmetrical power.


It is also a very asymmetrical investment. Flying is expensive and not a right. Affordable flying comes with strings attached.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:30 am

Airlines are businesses. Period.

When I was in college, I worked in a bookstore in NYC during my vacations that accepted returns with no receipt. We were required to accept returns no matter what. The policy was abused so regularly that the chain clamped down and went from its previous relaxed policy to an extremely stringent policy that practically required a blood test for a return. The change in policy had no effect on business.

Businesses have the right it change policies and the consumer will decide whether the change was a wise one, or bad for business.

One of the major problems of the deregulated era (amongst many) is the fact that the marketplace demands a deregulation-era price but possesses a pre-deregulation era service expectation. Airlines rarely do anything based on goodwill anymore.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:30 am

VS11 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:

A-symmetrical power.


It is also a very asymmetrical investment. Flying is expensive and not a right. Affordable flying comes with strings attached.


With this logic, airlines have essentially 0 accountability.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:35 am

VS11 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:

A-symmetrical power.


It is also a very asymmetrical investment. Flying is expensive and not a right. Affordable flying comes with strings attached.


With this logic, airlines have essentially 0 accountability.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:38 am

When I was a kid, I used to love airline ticket offices, and would grab any promotional material I could. I was really young and visited the Western Airlines ticket counter at the Disneyland Hotel. They were distributing a red pamphlet urging the flying public to join the airline in opposing deregulation.

The pamphlet went into great detail about what would happen if the US airline industry were to be deregulated...amenities would be cut; seating densities would be maximized; etc. IIRC, every prediction came true.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:59 pm

seabosdca wrote:
This ought to be addressed through competition, rather than regulation, but competition in many markets is a thing of the past.


What are you talking about? Cite any domestic-48 city pair with more than 200 passengers a day that has just one carrier operating it? Connections? Big routes - DEN-LAX, CHI-NYC, NYC-MCO - can have five or six carriers with non-stops.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:01 pm

VS11 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:

A-symmetrical power.


It is also a very asymmetrical investment. Flying is expensive and not a right. Affordable flying comes with strings attached.


I don't necessarily disagree, but it seems to me that US legacies aren't as good as some of their competitors at offering transparency or choice. Take a look at somebody like AC, who offers multiple change policy choices on virtually every economy ticket. With AA, DL, and AA, the ticket is either refundable or it isn't. Those choices don't necessarily work for everybody, especially where the refundable ticket costs several times what the nonrefundable ticket costs.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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ricport
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:15 pm

kiowa wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:
Parker cares about Parker. Kirby cares about Kirby. They both come from the same school of " how much can we screw our customers and make ourselves rich..?" There is not and never has been a rationale for a ticket change fee and one as high as $200. Never. Ever. They will sell every seat because they are reducing flights and frequency so they do NOT lose a stinking cent. Southwest makes plenty of money, runs a MUCH better shop and people like to fly them.


And yet there are those of us who think Southwest is a far inferior airline and refuse to fly them.


Count me among them. Flying WN is akin to being onboard a dirty city bus with wings.
 
evank516
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:25 pm

I thought the airlines were deregulated? Didn't think the government had the authority to tell an airline what they can and cannot charge anymore.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:28 pm

WN has in effect a change fee. Buying a ticket early usually is cheaper, and when you change you normally have to buy a more expensive seat. The work around is that often they have a flight at an uncomfortable hour and you can save some money.

The basic contract of carriage needs to be redone, with airline and congressional supervision. As written it mostly takes standard commercial rights away from customers. And it should be mostly reduced to one or two pages, standard for all airlines. As it now exists it is more or less a 'take it or leave it' contract. Us passengers pay for the airport, terminal, ATC - if airlines want to use our facilities then we need to have a substantial say in how the contracts are written.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:31 pm

Then I won't fly them. Having paid $400 to change a DL flight (flown by AF), airlines are able to get away with charging whatever they want these days.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:44 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
WN has in effect a change fee. Buying a ticket early usually is cheaper, and when you change you normally have to buy a more expensive seat. The work around is that often they have a flight at an uncomfortable hour and you can save some money.


Not really. On the legacies, you pay the fare difference plus the change fee. On WN, it's just the fare difference.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
cledaybuck
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:16 pm

VS11 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:

Why is this a one way street?


It is not a one way street. Customers do have protections when travel is disrupted or canceled, and most airlines do try to accommodate pax in such cases. Flight times though are not guaranteed and form no part of the contract between you and the airline. Here is AA Conditions of Carriage. See the section on Responsibility on Schedules and Operations:

https://www.aa.com/intl/es/footer_en/co ... rriage.jsp
Flight times are not guaranteed, yet airlines will charge more for flights at a certain time of day. If the CoC isn't a one way street, then there are 5 lanes running one way and one running the other.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:25 pm

evank516 wrote:
I thought the airlines were deregulated? Didn't think the government had the authority to tell an airline what they can and cannot charge anymore.

If Congress passes a law that is signed by the President, Carter and Congress deregulated in 1978, that does not stop them from passing new regulatory laws.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:29 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:

Why is this a one way street?


It is not a one way street. Customers do have protections when travel is disrupted or canceled, and most airlines do try to accommodate pax in such cases. Flight times though are not guaranteed and form no part of the contract between you and the airline. Here is AA Conditions of Carriage. See the section on Responsibility on Schedules and Operations:

https://www.aa.com/intl/es/footer_en/co ... rriage.jsp
Flight times are not guaranteed, yet airlines will charge more for flights at a certain time of day. If the CoC isn't a one way street, then there are 5 lanes running one way and one running the other.


Especially now that same day stand by requires a fee. I don’t understand that, if I can fly earlier and there is an empty seat I’d imagine it is in the airline’s interest to send me on my way. Opens up a new sale opportunity, or more flexibility for rebooking disrupted travelers, or if the later flight is cancelled, one less passenger to rebook.
 
evank516
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:45 pm

Yossarian22 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
I thought the airlines were deregulated? Didn't think the government had the authority to tell an airline what they can and cannot charge anymore.

If Congress passes a law that is signed by the President, Carter and Congress deregulated in 1978, that does not stop them from passing new regulatory laws.


Yes, but if a law violates another law I'm sure parts of the new law can probably be invalidated somehow. It will be challenged in court for sure.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:45 pm

I’d rather have a mandated minimum seat pitch first.
 
Sooner787
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:53 pm

aaflyer777 wrote:
And yet somehow Southwest makes money without charging change fees...



That's because they bake those fees into their overall fares.
 
Yossarian22
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:54 pm

evank516 wrote:
Yossarian22 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
I thought the airlines were deregulated? Didn't think the government had the authority to tell an airline what they can and cannot charge anymore.

If Congress passes a law that is signed by the President, Carter and Congress deregulated in 1978, that does not stop them from passing new regulatory laws.


Yes, but if a law violates another law I'm sure parts of the new law can probably be invalidated somehow. It will be challenged in court for sure.


Then the federal government could basically never change laws.

The Supreme Court would have a difficult time finding airline regulations unconstitutional, because regulation of interstate commerce is an enumerated power of Congress.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:18 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
And yet somehow Southwest makes money without charging change fees...



That's because they bake those fees into their overall fares.
Southwest's fares are often exactly the same as the legacy fares in competing markets.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
klakzky123
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:24 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
And yet somehow Southwest makes money without charging change fees...



That's because they bake those fees into their overall fares.


That's not why. Southwest's fare rules and revenue management accounts for the fact that customers will exchange tickets freely. Other carriers don't do that so their revenue management models break if suddenly customers can freely exchange tickets.
 
TMccrury
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:59 pm

A couple of years ago, I had purchased several tickets for back to back trips. Then ended up having to have emergency surgery and could not make any of them. All of them were non-refundable tickets and I was prepared for whatever change fees the airlines would have implemented. I called DL and told them the situation, the lady ask me to send some documentation on it. A few days later, I get an email and they have banked all of the fare and were not going to charge me a change fee for a later booking. However, that is also the reason I purchase trip insurance on a ticket. This incident alone, with the insurance allowed me to collect the full amount of all of the fares. The government needs to stay out of this and let the market drive these things.
 
klakzky123
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:02 pm

TMccrury wrote:
A couple of years ago, I had purchased several tickets for back to back trips. Then ended up having to have emergency surgery and could not make any of them. All of them were non-refundable tickets and I was prepared for whatever change fees the airlines would have implemented. I called DL and told them the situation, the lady ask me to send some documentation on it. A few days later, I get an email and they have banked all of the fare and were not going to charge me a change fee for a later booking. However, that is also the reason I purchase trip insurance on a ticket. This incident alone, with the insurance allowed me to collect the full amount of all of the fares. The government needs to stay out of this and let the market drive these things.


Delta in general is quite good about waiving change fees if you have a good reason. I feel like in general, they're quite reasonable about this stuff.
 
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Tugger
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:02 pm

VS11 wrote:
Flight times though are not guaranteed and form no part of the contract between you and the airline. Here is AA Conditions of Carriage. See the section on Responsibility on Schedules and Operations:

https://www.aa.com/intl/es/footer_en/co ... rriage.jsp

Exactly, and that is a huge part of the problem.

As was said in an earlier post:
S0Y wrote:
The main problem is the unilateral nature of the contract of carriage. It is way biased in favor of the airlines.

The CoC is like most business "contracts" with consumers: non-negotiable and of course only favors the business. The consumer has little real choice and most contracts are written similarly.

And this children is where government comes in! It is one of the reason why people have and create government, to "negotiate" with business and require them to follow certain rules or change certain practices that the public finds disagreeable. Government and the regulations we have are the consumers ultimate check on unilateral actions and contracts by businesses.

Some people don't like that, but when up against large businesses the public needs their champion, their government abilities, to affect important (or minor) changes.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Super80Fan
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:09 pm

Delta, Southwest, and even United are licking their lips at this. Even NK & F9 are as well considering there would be no advantage to booking AA over a ULCC.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
airbazar
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:16 pm

VS11 wrote:
American Airlines Considers Ending Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... imits-fees

"Doing away with changes to nonrefundable fares would make airline flights more like baseball games or concerts, where customers aren’t typically reimbursed if they buy tickets and can’t use them.


Ok, then let me give my ticket or re-sell my ticket to anyone I want like I do for baseball games or concerts. If we're going to use that analogy then lets use all facets of it not just pick the one that suits his argument.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:40 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
What are you talking about? Cite any domestic-48 city pair with more than 200 passengers a day that has just one carrier operating it? Connections? Big routes - DEN-LAX, CHI-NYC, NYC-MCO - can have five or six carriers with non-stops.


The markets with more than two carriers are the exception. Markets with two carriers are generally not competitive because the passengers at each end are, in most cases, beholden to one of the two. And many if not most smaller spokes have just one carrier.

In any event it's not just individual markets that suffer from lack of competition, but the industry as a whole. Four big carriers (really, three that compete squarely for most passengers) is not enough to ensure a competitive marketplace. The scheduled passenger air service market in the US has become an oligopoly, with the result that we can't rely on competition to solve issues where the four big carriers do the same thing.
 
Etheereal
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:48 pm

admanager wrote:
I can hear Southwest in the background saying "Go for it Parker, give your customers another reason to choose Southwest"

Man, i came here to find a post like this. Tyvm.

Also, Ty doug for giving me more reasons to not fly AA again.
 
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OA412
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:18 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Oh boy, let's turn this thread into a political discussion, shall we...?

If Congress is going to pass a law to regulate it, of course it’s political.

SMH


It's bipartisan. The Airlines aren't going to be on the winning side.

Exactly. The airlines (or at least AA) are/is on the wrong side here. They're not going to win.

evank516 wrote:
I thought the airlines were deregulated? Didn't think the government had the authority to tell an airline what they can and cannot charge anymore.

Complete deregulation and the free market are a fiction. Regulation is always present, just to varying degrees. The deregulation act did not completely deregulate the industry. They are, for instance, still subject to Clean Water Act rules governing potable water carried aboard aircraft. That is just one example. There are myriad other regulations with which the airlines must comply.

Yossarian22 wrote:
Then the federal government could basically never change laws.

The Supreme Court would have a difficult time finding airline regulations unconstitutional, because regulation of interstate commerce is an enumerated power of Congress.

This! The airlines are engaged in interstate commerce, and as such, congress may regulate their activities. The Airline Deregulation Act took away the federal government's ability to regulate fares, routes flown, and market entrants (among some other things), thus allowing airlines in the US to fly whichever routes they choose (with some exceptions such as to/from LGA, DCA and other slot controlled airports), and charge whatever fares they wanted. It was not a free-for-all. It did not exempt them from all regulation.

cledaybuck wrote:
Southwest's fares are often exactly the same as the legacy fares in competing markets.


Exactly! Sometimes more, sometimes less, but rarely in my experience are they exponentially higher than their competitor's fares.

Tugger wrote:
And this children is where government comes in! It is one of the reason why people have and create government, to "negotiate" with business and require them to follow certain rules or change certain practices that the public finds disagreeable. Government and the regulations we have are the consumers ultimate check on unilateral actions and contracts by businesses.

Some people don't like that, but when up against large businesses the public needs their champion, their government abilities, to affect important (or minor) changes.

:checkmark: This is precisely why we have consumer protection laws. Left to their own devices, without any checks, businesses aren't about to worry about consumer protection. And very weak regulation has already shown us that businesses become incredibly greedy and reckless, and the consequences can be catastrophic (see, for instance, the banking industry crisis).

blueflyer wrote:
The pretense that a transaction is fair, balanced, and fully informed once one consumer without legal training has read non-negotiable fine prints written by an army of lawyers is simply asinine.

Agreed. Those contracts are onerous, always favor the business, and are not easily, if at all, understood by non-attorneys.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
evank516
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:23 pm

OA412 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
If Congress is going to pass a law to regulate it, of course it’s political.

SMH


It's bipartisan. The Airlines aren't going to be on the winning side.

Exactly. The airlines (or at least AA) are/is on the wrong side here. They're not going to win.

evank516 wrote:
I thought the airlines were deregulated? Didn't think the government had the authority to tell an airline what they can and cannot charge anymore.

Complete deregulation and the free market are a fiction. Regulation is always present, just to varying degrees. The deregulation act did not completely deregulate the industry. They are, for instance, still subject to Clean Water Act rules governing potable water carried aboard aircraft. That is just one example. There are myriad other regulations with which the airlines must comply.

Yossarian22 wrote:
Then the federal government could basically never change laws.

The Supreme Court would have a difficult time finding airline regulations unconstitutional, because regulation of interstate commerce is an enumerated power of Congress.

This! The airlines are engaged in interstate commerce, and as such, congress may regulate their activities. The Airline Deregulation Act took away the federal government's ability to regulate fares, routes flown, and market entrants (among some other things), thus allowing airlines in the US to fly whichever routes they choose (with some exceptions such as to/from LGA, DCA and other slot controlled airports), and charge whatever fares they wanted. It was not a free-for-all. It did not exempt them from all regulation.

cledaybuck wrote:
Southwest's fares are often exactly the same as the legacy fares in competing markets.


Exactly! Sometimes more, sometimes less, but rarely in my experience are they exponentially higher than their competitor's fares.

Tugger wrote:
And this children is where government comes in! It is one of the reason why people have and create government, to "negotiate" with business and require them to follow certain rules or change certain practices that the public finds disagreeable. Government and the regulations we have are the consumers ultimate check on unilateral actions and contracts by businesses.

Some people don't like that, but when up against large businesses the public needs their champion, their government abilities, to affect important (or minor) changes.

:checkmark: This is precisely why we have consumer protection laws. Left to their own devices, without any checks, businesses aren't about to worry about consumer protection. And very weak regulation has already shown us that businesses become incredibly greedy and reckless, and the consequences can be catastrophic (see, for instance, the banking industry crisis).

blueflyer wrote:
The pretense that a transaction is fair, balanced, and fully informed once one consumer without legal training has read non-negotiable fine prints written by an army of lawyers is simply asinine.

Agreed. Those contracts are onerous, always favor the business, and are not easily, if at all, understood by non-attorneys.


I'm aware that there are still portions that are regulated. However, I don't believe pricing and fees is one of those areas.
 
DFWAviator76
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:59 pm

seabosdca wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
What are you talking about? Cite any domestic-48 city pair with more than 200 passengers a day that has just one carrier operating it? Connections? Big routes - DEN-LAX, CHI-NYC, NYC-MCO - can have five or six carriers with non-stops.


The markets with more than two carriers are the exception. Markets with two carriers are generally not competitive because the passengers at each end are, in most cases, beholden to one of the two. And many if not most smaller spokes have just one carrier.

In any event it's not just individual markets that suffer from lack of competition, but the industry as a whole. Four big carriers (really, three that compete squarely for most passengers) is not enough to ensure a competitive marketplace. The scheduled passenger air service market in the US has become an oligopoly, with the result that we can't rely on competition to solve issues where the four big carriers do the same thing.


You're missing the bigger picture. Airlines are not only competing with each other, they're competing with alternative forms of transportation, as well as the option of not flying at all.

Airlines serving markets in the northeast compete with Amtrak. Airlines serving any market within 250 miles of another market compete with driving and Greyhound. Airlines everywhere compete with the option of doing an in-person meeting via phone or video conference.

With 6-8 major carriers, airlines were continually going bankrupt. With the market down to 3-5, airlines are profitable again. They're not printing money, but they're on sound financial footing. Consumers have options.

Where's the problem?
 
jplatts
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 pm

AA has its ORD, DFW, LAX, MIA, PHX, and DCA hubs in markets where WN has focus city airports, and AA faces significant competition from WN on domestic air travel in the Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, Greater Los Angeles, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, and Baltimore/Washington markets. AA will have to worry about losing market share and business to WN in these 6 markets if it institutes a policy of no ticket changes on non-refundable fare tickets.
 
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FA9295
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:19 pm

jplatts wrote:
AA has its ORD, DFW, LAX, MIA, PHX, and DCA hubs in markets where WN has focus city airports, and AA faces significant competition from WN on domestic air travel in the Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, Greater Los Angeles, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, and Baltimore/Washington markets. AA will have to worry about losing market share and business to WN in these 6 markets if it institutes a policy of no ticket changes on non-refundable fare tickets.

Eh, but AA can also connect people onward to Asia, Europe and South America, which WN cannot do.
 
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par13del
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:29 pm

Hopefully they will include some notice saying how much interest the airline made on your non-refundable ticket.
Recall that one of the reasons why tickets purchased earlier is cheaper is due to the airline having your funds earning interest, so if you now loose it, at least put on the cancellation the exact amount of money you are loosing, it may give you incentive to avoid the cancellation, which is what the airlines want, right?
 
AAIRLINERS
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:31 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Government needs to stay out of it.

They did pass the DEREGULATION Act of 1978.



agreed



And I second this motion. This industry is far too regulated as it is. In the US anyway this really goes in the wrong direction for our government.
Fly the airline whose policies you most like. Avoid those that you don't like. Unbeatable system for those who take responsibility for themselves.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:38 pm

The concert analogy just doesn't jive since individual concerts are generally one time events. Anyways, de-regulation didn't mean airlines (or any other business) can do whatever they want. Humans inherently want to take advantage of each other. Businesses will try to take advantage of consumers, and consumers will try to take advantage of businesses when they can. Enter the government.

Personally, I don't think any commercial airline ticket should be non-refundable, with the exception of perhaps cancelling within 24 hours. I think change fees are fair within reason. Like someone else suggested I think a sliding scale where the fee increases as the flight approaches is a reasonable policy, plus any difference in fare. Airline seats really aren't finite. If someone cancels their seat, an airline can still sell that seat. And with high passenger loads these days I'm sure many airlines are on occasion making twice the fare on one basic economy seat or at least flying an empty paid seat.

I appreciated Alaska's old change policy. But their absorption of VX has brought less friendly fare policies.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:01 pm

aaflyer777 wrote:
And yet somehow Southwest makes money without charging change fees...


True, and yet somehow AA/UA/DL make lots of money allowing customers to standby the same day of travel for a nominal fee.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:10 pm

I think my mortgage interest rate is too high, Congress needs to pass a law making mortgages zero percent interest
 
legend500
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:31 pm

It's really quite simple. the fare is clearly marketed and sold as non-refundable and restricted. It doesn't take an army of lawyers, an act of congress, or the intervention of the Almighty to tell you the obvious: one should expect non-refundable and restricted tickets to be both non-refundable and restricted. Airlines allowing ANY changes at all are already going above and beyond both what they are required and should be expected to do.

If people dislike a $200 change fee, there are nearly a half-dozen immediate alternatives: 1) not paying it, 2) buying a flexible ticket, 3) flying another airline, 4) taking a different mode of transportation. or 5) not going on the trip.

There is an imbalance between airlines and customers, and there always will be, as only one of the two have an aeroplane.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:40 pm

evank516 wrote:
Yes, but if a law violates another law I'm sure parts of the new law can probably be invalidated somehow. It will be challenged in court for sure.

That's what "repeal" is for. A new law could be passed that repeals a portion of the Deregulation Act of 78 while keeping everything else intact. Americans should be familiar with this with all the ACA repeal crusade: no better example.

Boof02671 wrote:
I think my mortgage interest rate is too high, Congress needs to pass a law making mortgages zero percent interest

Sure. Have at it. But don't be surprised when banks decide to charge $100/month for basic services like checking (you have to maintain a minimum of $5,000; avoid the fee by having more than $25,000), a fee for using one of their tellers, a service fee for said fee (a fee fee), a fee for the ATM, and $10 to mail your one page bank statement. Act now and take advantage of their low fee savings account with a monthly service charge of $40/month, $25 access charge (to view your statement online), and paying an industry high rate of 0.00001%.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Tugger
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:42 pm

legend500 wrote:
There is an imbalance between airlines and customers, and there always will be, as only one of the two have an aeroplane.

And the other has the government to turn too.... And we do. So there is balance, and there always will be.
(And of course in fairness the airlines also get to present their argument.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
LAXBUR
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:47 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
I think my mortgage interest rate is too high, Congress needs to pass a law making mortgages zero percent interest


Uh mortgages are highly regulated and the Federal Reserve helps set interest rates on mortgages.
 
Varsity1
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:52 pm

FA9295 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
AA has its ORD, DFW, LAX, MIA, PHX, and DCA hubs in markets where WN has focus city airports, and AA faces significant competition from WN on domestic air travel in the Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, Greater Los Angeles, Miami/Fort Lauderdale, Phoenix, and Baltimore/Washington markets. AA will have to worry about losing market share and business to WN in these 6 markets if it institutes a policy of no ticket changes on non-refundable fare tickets.

Eh, but AA can also connect people onward to Asia, Europe and South America, which WN cannot do.


Very small percentage of their total passengers.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
evank516
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:03 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
evank516 wrote:
Yes, but if a law violates another law I'm sure parts of the new law can probably be invalidated somehow. It will be challenged in court for sure.

That's what "repeal" is for. A new law could be passed that repeals a portion of the Deregulation Act of 78 while keeping everything else intact. Americans should be familiar with this with all the ACA repeal crusade: no better example.

Boof02671 wrote:
I think my mortgage interest rate is too high, Congress needs to pass a law making mortgages zero percent interest

Sure. Have at it. But don't be surprised when banks decide to charge $100/month for basic services like checking (you have to maintain a minimum of $5,000; avoid the fee by having more than $25,000), a fee for using one of their tellers, a service fee for said fee (a fee fee), a fee for the ATM, and $10 to mail your one page bank statement. Act now and take advantage of their low fee savings account with a monthly service charge of $40/month, $25 access charge (to view your statement online), and paying an industry high rate of 0.00001%.


If a law is passed to repeal the part of deregulation that dictates airlines can determine their own prices and fees then you might as well repeal the whole thing because that was a major part of it.
Last edited by evank516 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:03 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
And yet somehow Southwest makes money without charging change fees...


True, and yet somehow AA/UA/DL make lots of money allowing customers to standby the same day of travel for a nominal fee.


Well and I believe all three allow elites to same-day-standby (with varying restrictions) for free. So it's probably a miniscule number of people who are actually paying to standby.
 
evank516
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:04 pm

9w748capt wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
And yet somehow Southwest makes money without charging change fees...


True, and yet somehow AA/UA/DL make lots of money allowing customers to standby the same day of travel for a nominal fee.


Well and I believe all three allow elites to same-day-standby (with varying restrictions) for free. So it's probably a miniscule number of people who are actually paying to standby.


Not all elites. Delta doesn't waive those fees for Silver Medallions.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA May End Ticket Changes If Congress Limits Fees - Bloomberg

Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:18 pm

This is a fight AA won't be able to win. Other than airline employees and a handful of fanboys (and girls) who will regurgitate whatever their employer/favorite airlines tells them re the need for a change fee, no one will be on the airlines' side. Any step they take to sidestep this like doing away with changes all together will either be legislated against or hurt them versus their competition. Competitive pressure will make it difficult to raise fares to combat this as well.

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