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uta999
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Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:42 am

With Boeing getting close to their new 797, should AB jump the gun with a new A330NEO based (shortened) A310-300 model, called an A330-400NEO perhaps?
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scbriml
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:02 am

I suspect it would be too heavy to realistically compete with a new offering from Boeing. Can't see it happening.
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FlyRow
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:09 am

Few things:

- They just mothballed the A330-800 and A350-800 as there was no demand, same for the 787-3.
- The A310 seated 240 in one class (8 abreast, 9 should be forbidden), usually capacity was around 200.
- The A321 can already fit that, remember that the A310 was used on heavy trafic shorthaul routes a lot.
- Shortened planes ruin cost/seat ratio's , you get all the cost of a widebody plane with less seats, the economics don't work.

We had countless threads on the 797, the main conclusion is, Airbus can sit on there hands and wait at the moment. They can go A322/A321XLR and the jump to A330/A350 is not that large.


And a less serious note. If it would be a smaller plane a A330-700NEO or A330-100 would be logical, -400 would imply a bigger plane.
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Kikko19
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:13 am

the major problem is (as well for the 797) the engines... who'll produce them? at which cost? Airbus can really sit and wait what and if the 797 will be.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:34 am

The A310 weighs an amazing 25% less then the lightest A330/340, the A330-200.

OEW's
- A300-600 : 89t (195k lb)
- A310-300 : 79t (175k lb)
- A330-200 : 120t (265k lb)

Image

It has smaller, lighter, wings, wing-box, landing gears. Getting back to an 5000NM optimized design would mean a renewal of those, a bit like the 777X. A multi billion, 5 yr project.

It could carry 8/9 areast, lean on the extensive A330/340s option catalog ( https://i2.wp.com/thepointsguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSC08061-830x553.jpg?fit=2048%2C2048px&ssl=1 ) and carry serious cargo. Possibly the smallest aircraft that can carry full size LD3's. Boosting rest value for cargo conversion. https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/containers-being-loaded-into-lower-side-cargo-door-of-a-fedex-airbus-picture-id973343742?s=612x612

Only thing, you need that new 50k lbs engine. Same issue Boeing is facing for the NMA..

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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:44 am

New wing, new wingbox, new gear, new engines...
This is closer to a clean-sheet than a redesign.

All for a potential market that might not even exist...
I like the idea, but unless the 797 turns out to be a massive success and leaves AB in the dust, I can't see a reason for it.
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tealnz
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:08 pm

Seems an obvious option as part of an NMA response.
Some say the short fuselage is too draggy and too much of the length is wasted in the taper to the empennage. But that didn't stop Airbus building the A310 in the first place. And on the plus side you get the greater efficiency of eight abreast and ability to carry LD3s. And use A330neo systems.
Is the aluminium fuselage going to carry much of a weight penalty? Or is that canceled out by the greater efficiency of going eight abreast?
 
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keesje
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:15 pm

By looking at A310 as a reference, it would be heavier than the 797, but also more capable. And it would have a Freight version opportunity / rest value from day 1. No doubt Airbus is reconsidering their long term strategy in this area.

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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:31 pm

It might be cheaper to upgrade an A321 to an A322 than bring a NEO'd A310 to life.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:32 pm

It would need a new wing and a modernized systems architecture since many of those components are all out of production and with obsolete designs. If Airbus is going through that effort, it might as well be clean sheet. There is no point trying to preserve a 40 year old aluminum fuselage design that hasn’t been made in over a decade. I can’t imagine Airbus dusting off old hand drawn engineering drawings and sending them to suppliers. If the airplane had remained in production then maybe, but the supply chain for the A310 is gone. Everything would have to be recertified. Keeping an older design in production requires constant engineering design changes and revisions as old designs (especially avionics equipment) goes obsolete and needs to be upgraded.
 
uta999
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:59 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
It would need a new wing and a modernized systems architecture since many of those components are all out of production and with obsolete designs. If Airbus is going through that effort, it might as well be clean sheet. There is no point trying to preserve a 40 year old aluminum fuselage design that hasn’t been made in over a decade. I can’t imagine Airbus dusting off old hand drawn engineering drawings and sending them to suppliers. If the airplane had remained in production then maybe, but the supply chain for the A310 is gone. Everything would have to be recertified. Keeping an older design in production requires constant engineering design changes and revisions as old designs (especially avionics equipment) goes obsolete and needs to be upgraded.


None of this is relevant, as it would simply be a shortened A330NEO, with a simplified wing / flaps / landing gear to suit, and a new RR engine. Everything else would come from the A330NEO. I was not suggesting restarting an A310 FAL, with a 40 year old design. Those saying an A321/A322 could do the job are missing the point. It is more like a 757/767 and competitor for the new 797, plus it could be a freighter from day one.
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:05 pm

uta999 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
It would need a new wing and a modernized systems architecture since many of those components are all out of production and with obsolete designs. If Airbus is going through that effort, it might as well be clean sheet. There is no point trying to preserve a 40 year old aluminum fuselage design that hasn’t been made in over a decade. I can’t imagine Airbus dusting off old hand drawn engineering drawings and sending them to suppliers. If the airplane had remained in production then maybe, but the supply chain for the A310 is gone. Everything would have to be recertified. Keeping an older design in production requires constant engineering design changes and revisions as old designs (especially avionics equipment) goes obsolete and needs to be upgraded.


None of this is relevant, as it would simply be a shortened A330NEO, with a simplified wing / flaps / landing gear to suit, and a new RR engine. Everything else would come from the A330NEO. I was not suggesting restarting an A310 FAL, with a 40 year old design. Those saying an A321/A322 could do the job are missing the point. It is more like a 757/767 and competitor for the new 797, plus it could be a freighter from day one.


A shortened NEO would have oversized system components that would weigh and cost more than needed. The structure is also over designed. To shrink a plane and keep OEW proportional to capacity, every component must be redesigned to the lower load requirements. It is far more engineering work to efficiently shrink than stretch since when stretching only the parts without adequate margin for higher loads need to grow. Efficient shrinks are an order of magnitude more engineering work otherwise the plane is overweight and heavy.

787 and A330 shrinks are commonly proposed on this site. In reality thry rarely work since the airframe costs almost the same to build as thr bigger plane amd has worse CASM. Unless it is a shrink for range, the business case for an airline to buy a shrink is rarely workeable.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:30 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
It would need a new wing and a modernized systems architecture since many of those components are all out of production and with obsolete designs. If Airbus is going through that effort, it might as well be clean sheet. There is no point trying to preserve a 40 year old aluminum fuselage design that hasn’t been made in over a decade. I can’t imagine Airbus dusting off old hand drawn engineering drawings and sending them to suppliers. If the airplane had remained in production then maybe, but the supply chain for the A310 is gone. Everything would have to be recertified. Keeping an older design in production requires constant engineering design changes and revisions as old designs (especially avionics equipment) goes obsolete and needs to be upgraded.


None of this is relevant, as it would simply be a shortened A330NEO, with a simplified wing / flaps / landing gear to suit, and a new RR engine. Everything else would come from the A330NEO. I was not suggesting restarting an A310 FAL, with a 40 year old design. Those saying an A321/A322 could do the job are missing the point. It is more like a 757/767 and competitor for the new 797, plus it could be a freighter from day one.


A shortened NEO would have oversized system components that would weigh and cost more than needed. The structure is also over designed. To shrink a plane and keep OEW proportional to capacity, every component must be redesigned to the lower load requirements. It is far more engineering work to efficiently shrink than stretch since when stretching only the parts without adequate margin for higher loads need to grow. Efficient shrinks are an order of magnitude more engineering work otherwise the plane is overweight and heavy.

787 and A330 shrinks are commonly proposed on this site. In reality thry rarely work since the airframe costs almost the same to build as thr bigger plane amd has worse CASM. Unless it is a shrink for range, the business case for an airline to buy a shrink is rarely workeable.


Absolutely nonsense. As a A330 is a stretched A300/310 it should be possible to remove the added weight with going back to the A300 dimensions. Please quote the natural laws that would stop Airbus from doing that.

It has no similarities to making a 757 or 767MAX. It would be a more expensive development

The main step from the A300 to the A330 was not the beefing up of the fuselage to make a bigger frame, but the move to modern systems, like the FBW used in the A330.

The fuselage of the A330 and A300 are build in the same way. You would either need the old components, old wing box and MLG or make a new wing box and MLG. There would be most likely a need for a new wing. I would assume even the A310 wing would be to old, but perhaps that would not matter on short to medium haul. The main advance for reducing fuel burn has not been fuselage or wings, but engines.

The biggest advantage would be, that Airbus could most likely produce such a bird on the current A330 line.

The problem I see is the market. I do believe that a market does neither exists for a 797, nor for a A300/310 sized A330.
 
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:38 pm

Just because it has the same fuselage diameter and a similar looking nose, does not mean that it is in any form identical when you look at the actual parts. So it would be a completely new plane and why you would develop a new plane based on already dated A330 technology is beyond me. If you go new, you look at the A350 and improve from there.
 
parapente
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:53 pm

As Erebus has implied above Airbus have already made their decision regarding a response.Indeed that have already responded.They have presented their response to the relevant customers (with NDA's of course).Of course they will have looked at all possibilities including an 8ab twin.However...
For better or worse they plumped for a stretched NB with an all new wing.Its 'code' name was the A321neo plus plus.This combination gave them the seating and range of a MOM.They have put this concept back in the drawer for the moment whilst Boeing decides what to do.But just to give them something else to think about they are presenting the A321neo XLR with a made to measure new fuel tank extending the LR range out to 4,500nm.Which is of course well into MOM range.
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keesje
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:56 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
uta999 wrote:

None of this is relevant, as it would simply be a shortened A330NEO, with a simplified wing / flaps / landing gear to suit, and a new RR engine. Everything else would come from the A330NEO. I was not suggesting restarting an A310 FAL, with a 40 year old design. Those saying an A321/A322 could do the job are missing the point. It is more like a 757/767 and competitor for the new 797, plus it could be a freighter from day one.


A shortened NEO would have oversized system components that would weigh and cost more than needed. The structure is also over designed. To shrink a plane and keep OEW proportional to capacity, every component must be redesigned to the lower load requirements. It is far more engineering work to efficiently shrink than stretch since when stretching only the parts without adequate margin for higher loads need to grow. Efficient shrinks are an order of magnitude more engineering work otherwise the plane is overweight and heavy.

787 and A330 shrinks are commonly proposed on this site. In reality thry rarely work since the airframe costs almost the same to build as thr bigger plane amd has worse CASM. Unless it is a shrink for range, the business case for an airline to buy a shrink is rarely workeable.


Absolutely nonsense. As a A330 is a stretched A300/310 it should be possible to remove the added weight with going back to the A300 dimensions. Please quote the natural laws that would stop Airbus from doing that.

It has no similarities to making a 757 or 767MAX. It would be a more expensive development

The main step from the A300 to the A330 was not the beefing up of the fuselage to make a bigger frame, but the move to modern systems, like the FBW used in the A330.

The fuselage of the A330 and A300 are build in the same way. You would either need the old components, old wing box and MLG or make a new wing box and MLG. There would be most likely a need for a new wing. I would assume even the A310 wing would be to old, but perhaps that would not matter on short to medium haul. The main advance for reducing fuel burn has not been fuselage or wings, but engines.

The biggest advantage would be, that Airbus could most likely produce such a bird on the current A330 line.

The problem I see is the market. I do believe that a market does neither exists for a 797, nor for a A300/310 sized A330.



Indeed you would have to design an entirely new centersection, wingbox, nacelles, wing, landing gear to get out the 40t that was added when the long haul A330/340s were developed. Cockpit, fuselages, cabin, systems, tail would come from the refreshed A330NEO.

It would be a A330NEO rewing, little to do with A310.

For the A310, the derated CF6, RB211, PW engines were used. Using GENx/T1000 variants might also be the simplest solution. With "just right" engines, related structure / loads and a composite wing, you probably would dive under the 80t OEW. But for a very significant investment.

It's amazing how successful the heavy, capable A330CEO became in Asia on regional flight and China domestic. Airbus even opened a local completion center.

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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:54 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
uta999 wrote:

None of this is relevant, as it would simply be a shortened A330NEO, with a simplified wing / flaps / landing gear to suit, and a new RR engine. Everything else would come from the A330NEO. I was not suggesting restarting an A310 FAL, with a 40 year old design. Those saying an A321/A322 could do the job are missing the point. It is more like a 757/767 and competitor for the new 797, plus it could be a freighter from day one.


A shortened NEO would have oversized system components that would weigh and cost more than needed. The structure is also over designed. To shrink a plane and keep OEW proportional to capacity, every component must be redesigned to the lower load requirements. It is far more engineering work to efficiently shrink than stretch since when stretching only the parts without adequate margin for higher loads need to grow. Efficient shrinks are an order of magnitude more engineering work otherwise the plane is overweight and heavy.

787 and A330 shrinks are commonly proposed on this site. In reality thry rarely work since the airframe costs almost the same to build as thr bigger plane amd has worse CASM. Unless it is a shrink for range, the business case for an airline to buy a shrink is rarely workeable.


Absolutely nonsense. As a A330 is a stretched A300/310 it should be possible to remove the added weight with going back to the A300 dimensions. Please quote the natural laws that would stop Airbus from doing that.

It has no similarities to making a 757 or 767MAX. It would be a more expensive development

The main step from the A300 to the A330 was not the beefing up of the fuselage to make a bigger frame, but the move to modern systems, like the FBW used in the A330.

The fuselage of the A330 and A300 are build in the same way. You would either need the old components, old wing box and MLG or make a new wing box and MLG. There would be most likely a need for a new wing. I would assume even the A310 wing would be to old, but perhaps that would not matter on short to medium haul. The main advance for reducing fuel burn has not been fuselage or wings, but engines.

The biggest advantage would be, that Airbus could most likely produce such a bird on the current A330 line.

The problem I see is the market. I do believe that a market does neither exists for a 797, nor for a A300/310 sized A330.


Here is an example. The A300/A310 uses a 37 gallon per minute hydraulic pump on the engine. The A330 uses a larger, heavier and more expensive 46 gallon per minute pump since the larger wing needs more hydraulic power. An A330 shrink using the 46 GPM pump would be less efficient since that is 100 lbs of extra unnecessary weight. Airbus could spend the engineering effort to resize the hydrualic system for an A330 shrink, but that is a significant amount of engineering work.

Multiply the hydraulic example over the rest of the airplane in electrical, pneumatics, air conditioning, fuel systems, etc and the engineering work climbs dramatically if Airbus wants to optimize the plane for efficiency.
 
jagraham
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:08 pm

keesje wrote:
The A310 weighs an amazing 25% less then the lightest A330/340, the A330-200.

OEW's
- A300-600 : 89t (195k lb)
- A310-300 : 79t (175k lb)
- A330-200 : 120t (265k lb)

Image

It has smaller, lighter, wings, wing-box, landing gears. Getting back to an 5000NM optimized design would mean a renewal of those, a bit like the 777X. A multi billion, 5 yr project.

It could carry 8/9 areast, lean on the extensive A330/340s option catalog ( https://i2.wp.com/thepointsguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSC08061-830x553.jpg?fit=2048%2C2048px&ssl=1 ) and carry serious cargo. Possibly the smallest aircraft that can carry full size LD3's. Boosting rest value for cargo conversion. https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/containers-being-loaded-into-lower-side-cargo-door-of-a-fedex-airbus-picture-id973343742?s=612x612

Only thing, you need that new 50k lbs engine. Same issue Boeing is facing for the NMA..

Image



It does not need to be a multibillion dollar project. The OEWs of the A300 / A330 widebodies show that weight - primarily in the wing - has been added to increase range and payload. At a cost of fuel efficiency. Airbus can get 80 to 90 percent of a 797 by putting on a 5000 nm optimized carbon fiber wing and using whatever GE, Pratt, and Rolls are developing for the 797. The key is to get back to A310 and A300 OEW with a modern wing and engines.
 
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:17 pm

jagraham wrote:
keesje wrote:
The A310 weighs an amazing 25% less then the lightest A330/340, the A330-200.

OEW's
- A300-600 : 89t (195k lb)
- A310-300 : 79t (175k lb)
- A330-200 : 120t (265k lb)

Image

It has smaller, lighter, wings, wing-box, landing gears. Getting back to an 5000NM optimized design would mean a renewal of those, a bit like the 777X. A multi billion, 5 yr project.

It could carry 8/9 areast, lean on the extensive A330/340s option catalog ( https://i2.wp.com/thepointsguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSC08061-830x553.jpg?fit=2048%2C2048px&ssl=1 ) and carry serious cargo. Possibly the smallest aircraft that can carry full size LD3's. Boosting rest value for cargo conversion. https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/containers-being-loaded-into-lower-side-cargo-door-of-a-fedex-airbus-picture-id973343742?s=612x612

Only thing, you need that new 50k lbs engine. Same issue Boeing is facing for the NMA..

Image



It does not need to be a multibillion dollar project. The OEWs of the A300 / A330 widebodies show that weight - primarily in the wing - has been added to increase range and payload. At a cost of fuel efficiency. Airbus can get 80 to 90 percent of a 797 by putting on a 5000 nm optimized carbon fiber wing and using whatever GE, Pratt, and Rolls are developing for the 797. The key is to get back to A310 and A300 OEW with a modern wing and engines.

Rewinging an aircraft is a multi billion dollar project. Designing wings is not cheap. Getting new wings to interface with existing structure is not cheap. Adjusting other systems to take into the smaller wing/fuselage/MTOW needs is not cheap.

For some perspective, the A330neo project, which primarily involved putting new engines (derived from an existing engine) and a new wingtip on the A330ceo, is estimated to have been around a ~$2 billion project. A rewinged A330neo shrink will cost a lot more than that.
 
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:35 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Absolutely nonsense. As a A330 is a stretched A300/310 it should be possible to remove the added weight with going back to the A300 dimensions. Please quote the natural laws that would stop Airbus from doing that.

The fuselage of the A330 and A300 are build in the same way. You would either need the old components, old wing box and MLG or make a new wing box and MLG. There would be most likely a need for a new wing. I would assume even the A310 wing would be to old, but perhaps that would not matter on short to medium haul. The main advance for reducing fuel burn has not been fuselage or wings, but engines.

The biggest advantage would be, that Airbus could most likely produce such a bird on the current A330 line.


Nothing except $$$. Or €€€.

Take say, the fuel system - its currently sized to feed the two big Trent7000s. That is pipes, valves, pumps etc.

To really get your weight down, you need to redo all that.

Same for the pumps that power the landing gear.

Same for the ECS packs feeding a smaller cabin.

The new wing would need a new empennage... probably. Although shorter fuselage might keep tail volume ratio proportional.


Yes, it would be cheaper for Airbus to make an A330-100 than it would for Boeing to make a 797, but it would not perform quite as well and it would still need marked differences on the assembly line too.

So, in theory if Airbus haven't pulled the trigger on an A330-100 because they believe the market doesn't justify it - then Boeing making the contrary decision means that:
(i) The two airframers ability to foresee the market is very different
(ii) Boeing has no choice due to weaker products at either ends of market (shouldn't be case for 787-8, but is for 737-10)
(iii) The two airframers see their own costing for delivering the product to market as quite different to each other.
 
tealnz
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:30 am

Sure it would be a major engineering effort and major investment. Airbus would need to run the numbers to see how the economics of a rewinged/re-engined A310/300 making heavy use of A330 systems would work out.
But I can't understand all the hysteria about the concept. The closest modern parallel has to be the 77W -> 77X. I doubt the same posters would insist Boeing should have started with a clean sheet. The general rule that it's hard to make weight savings on a shrink doesn't apply here: we are talking about an aircraft with A300/310-sized engines, wing and wing box (and presumably some right-sized systems for cabin air etc). You still get the benefits of other major A330neo systems including cockpit and flight control. The bigger question is whether a short eight-abreast aluminium fuselage is fundamentally too draggy and inefficient to compete with a tight composite 797.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:57 am

What were the specs and short falls of the A300? It was widely used as a domestic ~254 seat people holler across Latin America and the Caribbean by AA and throughout Europe by Lufthansa and others. The 321 has taken its place more or less. As I type this, how would an A300 actually compare to an A321 now? What would need to be improved if possible to be even comparable or better??

Edited to emphasize the EU carriers, not specifically AAs use of the A300 on international segments to Europe (although it was used seldom)
 
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:35 am

uta999 wrote:
None of this is relevant, as it would simply be a shortened A330NEO, with a simplified wing / flaps / landing gear to suit, and a new RR engine. Everything else would come from the A330NEO.

Everything is relevant. If all you need is a shortened A330NEO, then there is the A338N with most development costs already paid for and just flight testing and certification remaining. Arguably, it also promises a more compelling combination of attributes than a risky, clean-sheet A310N which could be less popular in the end. And you still have that range/freighter capability built-in from day one.....

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Last edited by Devilfish on Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:46 am

I wonder if the A330-900 would have sold better with half the range and associated weight/bulk pulled out. There's definitely a lot of demand for a 300 pax regional jet and it will only grow, particularly in Asia. The A330-300's performance has grown dramatically since its first flight--what would a new build 333 look like with half the range?
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:11 am

tealnz wrote:
Sure it would be a major engineering effort and major investment. Airbus would need to run the numbers to see how the economics of a rewinged/re-engined A310/300 making heavy use of A330 systems would work out.
But I can't understand all the hysteria about the concept. The closest modern parallel has to be the 77W -> 77X. I doubt the same posters would insist Boeing should have started with a clean sheet. The general rule that it's hard to make weight savings on a shrink doesn't apply here: we are talking about an aircraft with A300/310-sized engines, wing and wing box (and presumably some right-sized systems for cabin air etc). You still get the benefits of other major A330neo systems including cockpit and flight control. The bigger question is whether a short eight-abreast aluminium fuselage is fundamentally too draggy and inefficient to compete with a tight composite 797.


I don’t see the parallel between stretching and upgrading a very popular airplane (777-300ER) and bringing back to life a program that has been out of production for a decade. I also don’t see how shrinking (which historically is rarely successful) the worst selling widebody derivative (A330-800).

I doubt the 8 abreast fuselage is the problem. Bringing back an out of production plane (not sure if that has ever been done) or shrinking an unpopular airplane is much more daunting.
 
tealnz
Posts: 635
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:52 am

Can’t have it both ways. In terms of systems we’re talking about an optimised derivative of another best-selling widebody (A330) that is still very much in production in modernised form (the neo). In engineering terms we’re talking about something less ambitious and pricey than the 77X project.
I say again, simple shrinks generally don’t work well - they are carry too much structural weight. But It is a different story if you are talking about a variant with all-new wingbox, wing, undercarriage and engines, plus optimised hydraulics, air conditioning packs etc. If Boeing can maintain systems commonality between a 788 and and a -10 why wouldn’t Airbus with a 330neo-derived A300/310neo?
 
Kikko19
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:18 am

tealnz wrote:
Can’t have it both ways. In terms of systems we’re talking about an optimised derivative of another best-selling widebody (A330) that is still very much in production in modernised form (the neo). In engineering terms we’re talking about something less ambitious and pricey than the 77X project.
I say again, simple shrinks generally don’t work well - they are carry too much structural weight. But It is a different story if you are talking about a variant with all-new wingbox, wing, undercarriage and engines, plus optimised hydraulics, air conditioning packs etc. If Boeing can maintain systems commonality between a 788 and and a -10 why wouldn’t Airbus with a 330neo-derived A300/310neo?

And again the bottleneck is the engine... Agree 100 Oct with the rest.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 679
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:18 am

Kikko19 wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Can’t have it both ways. In terms of systems we’re talking about an optimised derivative of another best-selling widebody (A330) that is still very much in production in modernised form (the neo). In engineering terms we’re talking about something less ambitious and pricey than the 77X project.
I say again, simple shrinks generally don’t work well - they are carry too much structural weight. But It is a different story if you are talking about a variant with all-new wingbox, wing, undercarriage and engines, plus optimised hydraulics, air conditioning packs etc. If Boeing can maintain systems commonality between a 788 and and a -10 why wouldn’t Airbus with a 330neo-derived A300/310neo?

And again the bottleneck is the engine... Agree 100 pct with the rest.
 
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keesje
Posts: 13836
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:15 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Sure it would be a major engineering effort and major investment. Airbus would need to run the numbers to see how the economics of a rewinged/re-engined A310/300 making heavy use of A330 systems would work out.
But I can't understand all the hysteria about the concept. The closest modern parallel has to be the 77W -> 77X. I doubt the same posters would insist Boeing should have started with a clean sheet. The general rule that it's hard to make weight savings on a shrink doesn't apply here: we are talking about an aircraft with A300/310-sized engines, wing and wing box (and presumably some right-sized systems for cabin air etc). You still get the benefits of other major A330neo systems including cockpit and flight control. The bigger question is whether a short eight-abreast aluminium fuselage is fundamentally too draggy and inefficient to compete with a tight composite 797.


I don’t see the parallel between stretching and upgrading a very popular airplane (777-300ER) and bringing back to life a program that has been out of production for a decade. I also don’t see how shrinking (which historically is rarely successful) the worst selling widebody derivative (A330-800).

I doubt the 8 abreast fuselage is the problem. Bringing back an out of production plane (not sure if that has ever been done) or shrinking an unpopular airplane is much more daunting.


You seem to keep talking about updating the old A310. That's a kind of odd, because over the last 2 days, many people have told you its about a new wing etc and using the A330NEO standards for the rest. It like discussing the 737-8 as an 737-400 upgrade.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:23 pm

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Sure it would be a major engineering effort and major investment. Airbus would need to run the numbers to see how the economics of a rewinged/re-engined A310/300 making heavy use of A330 systems would work out.
But I can't understand all the hysteria about the concept. The closest modern parallel has to be the 77W -> 77X. I doubt the same posters would insist Boeing should have started with a clean sheet. The general rule that it's hard to make weight savings on a shrink doesn't apply here: we are talking about an aircraft with A300/310-sized engines, wing and wing box (and presumably some right-sized systems for cabin air etc). You still get the benefits of other major A330neo systems including cockpit and flight control. The bigger question is whether a short eight-abreast aluminium fuselage is fundamentally too draggy and inefficient to compete with a tight composite 797.


I don’t see the parallel between stretching and upgrading a very popular airplane (777-300ER) and bringing back to life a program that has been out of production for a decade. I also don’t see how shrinking (which historically is rarely successful) the worst selling widebody derivative (A330-800).

I doubt the 8 abreast fuselage is the problem. Bringing back an out of production plane (not sure if that has ever been done) or shrinking an unpopular airplane is much more daunting.


You seem to keep talking about updating the old A310. That's a kind of odd, because over the last 2 days, many people have told you its about a new wing etc and using the A330NEO standards for the rest. It like discussing the 737-8 as an 737-400 upgrade.


Tealnz referred to a rewinged amd reengined A310 using A330neo systems.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:37 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Sure it would be a major engineering effort and major investment. Airbus would need to run the numbers to see how the economics of a rewinged/re-engined A310/300 making heavy use of A330 systems would work out.
But I can't understand all the hysteria about the concept. The closest modern parallel has to be the 77W -> 77X. I doubt the same posters would insist Boeing should have started with a clean sheet. The general rule that it's hard to make weight savings on a shrink doesn't apply here: we are talking about an aircraft with A300/310-sized engines, wing and wing box (and presumably some right-sized systems for cabin air etc). You still get the benefits of other major A330neo systems including cockpit and flight control. The bigger question is whether a short eight-abreast aluminium fuselage is fundamentally too draggy and inefficient to compete with a tight composite 797.


I don’t see the parallel between stretching and upgrading a very popular airplane (777-300ER) and bringing back to life a program that has been out of production for a decade. I also don’t see how shrinking (which historically is rarely successful) the worst selling widebody derivative (A330-800).

I doubt the 8 abreast fuselage is the problem. Bringing back an out of production plane (not sure if that has ever been done) or shrinking an unpopular airplane is much more daunting.


The A330 is an updated A300. Both fuselage are build the same way, same distance between stringers, with the stringers beefed up for the A330. There is the smaller wing box and MLG from the A300/310 Airbus could use. So it could be the fuselage of the A300, with the technology of the A330 combined with a new wing and engine, produced on an existing FAL.
 
uta999
Topic Author
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:38 pm

It annoys me that the likes of EZ, FR and others are clogging EU skies and major hub airports with 1000s of 738 and A319, when at least some of them could be WB like the old days, when L1011, DC10 and A300/A310s were around. Remember LHR-CDG in a TriStar or A300. SH needs to go back there.
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User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 842
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:46 pm

uta999 wrote:
It annoys me that the likes of EZ, FR and others are clogging EU skies and major hub airports with 1000s of 738 and A319, when at least some of them could be WB like the old days, when L1011, DC10 and A300/A310s were around. Remember LHR-CDG in a TriStar or A300. SH needs to go back there.


You know you're talking rubish arent you?
While WB are nice, the current airplanes are much more efficient, filled beter, and more highly utilised. A 230-seat A321 or 200-seat B737 Max-8 can't be compared to a A300.

It's like comparing cars from the 80's with car's from 2018 and saying yeah if we only had cars back then the roads wouldn't be full.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
WIederling
Posts: 9291
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:47 pm

tealnz wrote:
If Boeing can maintain systems commonality between a 788 and and a -10 why wouldn’t Airbus with a 330neo-derived A300/310neo?


They can't. 788 has rather low commonality with the 789/10.
789 || 7810 is easy
as the 7810 is a cheap capacity for range derivative.
Obviously the core airframe and systems are identical.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:52 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Sure it would be a major engineering effort and major investment. Airbus would need to run the numbers to see how the economics of a rewinged/re-engined A310/300 making heavy use of A330 systems would work out.
But I can't understand all the hysteria about the concept. The closest modern parallel has to be the 77W -> 77X. I doubt the same posters would insist Boeing should have started with a clean sheet. The general rule that it's hard to make weight savings on a shrink doesn't apply here: we are talking about an aircraft with A300/310-sized engines, wing and wing box (and presumably some right-sized systems for cabin air etc). You still get the benefits of other major A330neo systems including cockpit and flight control. The bigger question is whether a short eight-abreast aluminium fuselage is fundamentally too draggy and inefficient to compete with a tight composite 797.


I don’t see the parallel between stretching and upgrading a very popular airplane (777-300ER) and bringing back to life a program that has been out of production for a decade. I also don’t see how shrinking (which historically is rarely successful) the worst selling widebody derivative (A330-800).

I doubt the 8 abreast fuselage is the problem. Bringing back an out of production plane (not sure if that has ever been done) or shrinking an unpopular airplane is much more daunting.


The A330 is an updated A300. Both fuselage are build the same way, same distance between stringers, with the stringers beefed up for the A330. There is the smaller wing box and MLG from the A300/310 Airbus could use. So it could be the fuselage of the A300, with the technology of the A330 combined with a new wing and engine, produced on an existing FAL.


That sounds like a lot of engineering work. I doubt the A310 wingbox and gear are even in a modern CAD system
 
tealnz
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:31 pm

Yep. To do it properly would probably need an integrated new design for wing/wingbox/MLG. But like I keep reminding you, if Boeing can do it for a 77X and make a buck on it...
 
AIRTRANSAT767
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:36 am

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:50 pm

As well make a A330-200 NEO a place that A310 NEO?
i love air transat and fan all boeing
 
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DLHAM
Posts: 486
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:59 pm

That was in my mind very often too. Would a new wing really be necassary? AFAIK the A310 already had some kind of a very advanced wing? Wouldnt new engines, modern flight deck and avionics, a new cabin and as much CFK as possible do a great job?
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N292UX
Posts: 543
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:02 pm

Well if it ever did happen, it wouldn't be in the A310 name. It would probably be some form of the A330neo. Either restarting the A330-800 or making an A330-700 something is the best bet, and even that is very unlikely.
 
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TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:27 am

As much as I loved the A310 (used to fly Pan Am MEX-JFK back in the 80´s) and Aerounion has 3 converted to freighters, there is no way to bringing it back in a economically viable way, hence Boeing has shelved the 797 and Airbus is making the A321 like tortillas.
Airbus already has the A330-800 NEO and its unsold, they might sell them at cost and avoid dumping a cool billion to bring back the A310 Neo ... remember nobody buys an elephant if they don't own a circus in the first place.

BEST REGARDS

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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Polot
Posts: 10524
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Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:33 am

DLHAM wrote:
That was in my mind very often too. Would a new wing really be necassary? AFAIK the A310 already had some kind of a very advanced wing? Wouldnt new engines, modern flight deck and avionics, a new cabin and as much CFK as possible do a great job?

Advanced or not it is still a ~40 year old wing design.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:34 am

TheRedBaron wrote:
hence Boeing has shelved the 797


No it hasn’t. Shelving the NMA is only a rumor that was started after it was publicly shared that the launch decision won’t be made until next year. Despite some doubters, 2025 is still the date targeted for entry into service according to quotes from Boeing leaders and the program office doing the engineering has been working for over a year now
 
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keesje
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:51 am

NMA launch was shelved, no action was taken on launching, until a later time (2019).

Matching the definition of "to shelve" : https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/shelve

Boeing said they needed more time to close the business case, before they could launch the program.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
planecane
Posts: 1559
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:59 am

tealnz wrote:
Yep. To do it properly would probably need an integrated new design for wing/wingbox/MLG. But like I keep reminding you, if Boeing can do it for a 77X and make a buck on it...

The 777X is a high price aircraft. In the MOM segment, Boeing has determined that keeping the cost down is critical. A big part of this seems to be a new design that can be produced easily and cheaply. The A300/A330 were not designed to that goal.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4109
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:11 pm

Didn't someone here speculate that Airbus should have redone the 330 with less weight and capability rather than more? Of course they did contract the 8s disease in the 350 (788,748,358) and the NEO was designed to cure that.
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NZ321
Posts: 1213
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:32 pm

I too loved the A310. But the A321 is making so much money for Airbus they are not likely IMHO to proceed with an A310 NEO. A downsized and lighter version of the A330-800 (perhaps A330-700) with modifications to the wing (to reduce weight and span) could be an option I suppose. Engines are not in the offing as far as I know. And it's hard to understand the economics of such a decision in a forum like this.
Plane mad!
 
tealnz
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:43 pm

So it’s now being reported Boeing have 1000+ working on the NMA, likely authority to offer this year, formal project launch 2020.

Still no takers for a rewinged A300/310 length A330 with NMA engines? Targeted at the carriers who love their A330s and want to haul LD3s around Asia in the hold...

Obviously new wing, wingbox, gear and resizing of systems would mean a big investment. But presumably a lot less than the 797. And Airbus would build it on the A330 line. We still haven’t had anyone give us a good estimate for how competitive an optimised A330-600/700 would be against a 797. We can assume it would be heavier... but it would have a more efficient 8-across cabin. A click larger than each 797 variant. Commonality with A330. Plus serious freight capacity. And lower capital cost per seat. Airbus must have run the numbers internally as part of its 797 response planning...
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15090
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Should AB launch A310-300 based on A330NEO

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:45 pm

No.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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