Chelsearose
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What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:15 pm

Hi All,

Apologies if this was questioned before. I did a fair bit of searching and couldn't find anything.

The question above I've been asking myself for months now. Sure, the point of Joon - like any business - is the generate revenue. However, everything with AF when it comes to JN isn't exactly clear... and it doesn't quite help matters when operations are all sold as AF. Hence I wanted to find out:

i) What operating model is JN? Is it a regional/longhaul LCC? (e.g. like Level)
ii) Is it AF targeting point to point holidaymakers and thus a holiday airline? ( i.e. akin to Eurostyle holiday charters)
iii) Was JN created by AF to circumvent unionisation problems? (e.g. like OS did a few years ago with VO)
iv) Or [related to iii] was JN a question of AF wanted to rehire staff with new contracts based on LCC prices?

So... what exactly is AF's point with JN?

Hope to learn more here...

xx
 
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Polot
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:53 pm

Joon is lower cost (cheaper cabin crew). That is the entire point of Joon. If AF staff had accepted cuts there would be no Joon. Making Joon a separate airline makes the lower cabin crew pay more palatable for the unions, as they will be able to get fleet caps in place.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:02 pm

Polot wrote:
Joon is lower cost (cheaper cabin crew). That is the entire point of Joon. If AF staff had accepted cuts there would be no Joon. Making Joon a separate airline makes the lower cabin crew pay more palatable for the unions, as they will be able to get fleet caps in place.


That...

They could have used HV if they wanted a LCC brand. But that was truely low cost and also a lower pay grade, plus it's Dtuch.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:08 pm

Why does Joon fly to BOM, but AF to DEL and BLR?
Vahroone
 
cledaybuck
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:09 pm

Something has to come after May and before July.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Chelsearose
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:30 pm

FlyRow wrote:
Polot wrote:
Joon is lower cost (cheaper cabin crew). That is the entire point of Joon. If AF staff had accepted cuts there would be no Joon. Making Joon a separate airline makes the lower cabin crew pay more palatable for the unions, as they will be able to get fleet caps in place.


That...

They could have used HV if they wanted a LCC brand. But that was truely low cost and also a lower pay grade, plus it's Dtuch.



Indeed! That was my thinking too.
In addition to this, I'm also thinking ... if they were truly low cost... isn't it a futile exercise for AF to let JN to operate 343's among other aircraft? Couldn't AF just let the airline operate a single aircraft to curb the costs? (say the 787?)

Plus, as someone mentioned.. the routes they operate: BOM,CAI, THR, IST... I would have thought these are high revenue business routes for AF. What is the point of dropping a premium product on what could be high revenue routes ... for an inferior (in the economics sense not literal) product?
 
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FlyRow
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:31 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Why does Joon fly to BOM, but AF to DEL and BLR?


It's probably that destinations by Joon are lower yielding destiantions, or with heavier competition.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
KICT
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:44 pm

Air France is simply the next in line to learn that paying employees B scale wages isn't going to work out long-term.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
9w748capt
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:48 pm

Does anyone else think this is a Korean airline? Bizarre name and branding IMHO.
 
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mercure1
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:51 pm

Its just not cabin crews. Cockpit crews while AF mainline also work under terms with more productive schedules. Also Joon is free to contract for 3rd part services if they and not fully required to utilize AFKL infrastructure if lower cost can be attained outside.

Joon will be swapping its A340 for A350s starting in 2019, with union agreement to place up to 10 frames with Joon.

Much of the European market routes - Barcelona, Berlin, Lisbon, Porto Rome, Naples, etc are markets where AF sees high percentage of leisure travelers and LCC competition which produced losses.
mercure f-wtcc
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:58 pm

KICT wrote:
Air France is simply the next in line to learn that paying employees B scale wages isn't going to work out long-term.


They’ve already learned paying A-scale wages while your competition gets away with B-scale doesn’t work either.

GF
 
Thibault973
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:05 pm

The point is to pay the flight attendant less (they are going on strike soon) and make you pay for checked luggages.

Just had a flight with them CPT-CDG, fare was nothing cheap and actually more expensive than my AF's CDG-JNB ticket and there was absolutely no sign that its wasn't a AF flight. All signs at the airport say AF, annoucements make no mentions of Joon, no signs of their own iata code (JN) either. Even the staff didn't seem to know it was a JN flight as they asked my friend if they had a checked luggage even they hadnt paid for it as you're supposed to.

That being said their 343 new cabin is an improprement over the old AF cabin (except for best equipped aircrafts)
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:25 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
The point is to pay the flight attendant less (they are going on strike soon) and make you pay for checked luggages.

Just had a flight with them CPT-CDG, fare was nothing cheap and actually more expensive than my AF's CDG-JNB ticket and there was absolutely no sign that its wasn't a AF flight. All signs at the airport say AF, annoucements make no mentions of Joon, no signs of their own iata code (JN) either. Even the staff didn't seem to know it was a JN flight as they asked my friend if they had a checked luggage even they hadnt paid for it as you're supposed to.

That being said their 343 new cabin is an improprement over the old AF cabin (except for best equipped aircrafts)


The service level on Air France and Joon is exactly the same, no difference at all. The difference is in how much the staff gets paid.

As you may know, Air France staff is way overpaid compared to other airlines. The problem is that they can't get rid of their overpaid staff, if they try anything the staff goes on strike. But those high wages put a pressure on their profits, other airlines are making significantly more profit than Air France because they got lower wages.

So what did they do? They started a second airline which they called Joon. There they put all the staff that does want to work for less money whilst keeping the overpaid staff at Air France. Joon is therefor more profitable than Air France. Any new pilot that is being attracted is attracted for Joon, not for Air France. In time Air France will shrink and Joon will grow, more and more routes will be transfered to Joon. The Joon staff can't demand the same wages as the Air France staff because it's a different airline. This brings them more in line with other airlines and at the same time they keep the overpaid Air France staff satisfied until their retirement. Or maybe sooner. Maybe they'll let Air France burst and continue with Joon only. A nice way to get rid of the overpaid staff.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:33 pm

I think the point of Joon being on BOM was that AF has a partnership with 9W on that route. 9W can attract the high paying Indian origin pax which is probably the bulk of the J pax (rather than France originating). I think AF also wanted to fly BOM-CDG to get more lift for their NA flights. So if the point was really to get Y and Y+ lift for NA, then Joon makes sense. Plus Joon would offer France origin the option for a French airline plus discounted J vs 9W. That would be the case form my pov
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:38 pm

KICT wrote:
Air France is simply the next in line to learn that paying employees B scale wages isn't going to work out long-term.


Are you crazy? First of all, Air France is probably the best paying airline in the world, definitely no B scale wages. I'd call Air France wages A++ scale. Recently I've heard that there are several Air France pilots that make over € 300.000 a year. That's insane, no other airline in the world pays that much. And still they dare to complain. I'm sure Air France would love to get rid of those pilots, they cost far too much. However they got a permanent contract, they can't be fired. That's a problem for Air France. They can only wait for those pilots to retire and replace them with younger cheaper pilots.

Of course they don't have to go as low as Ryanair. For comparison, a captain at Ryanair makes € 85.000 a year at maximum. This means some Air France pilots get paid over three and a half times as much as their colleagues at Ryanair for doing the same job. Those Ryanair pilots have the right to complain, they don't make much. But Air France pilots got nothing to complain, they get paid extremely well.
 
sabby
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:46 pm

Chelsearose wrote:

In addition to this, I'm also thinking ... if they were truly low cost... isn't it a futile exercise for AF to let JN to operate 343's among other aircraft? Couldn't AF just let the airline operate a single aircraft to curb the costs? (say the 787?)

Plus, as someone mentioned.. the routes they operate: BOM,CAI, THR, IST... I would have thought these are high revenue business routes for AF. What is the point of dropping a premium product on what could be high revenue routes ... for an inferior (in the economics sense not literal) product?


Others have already explained the reason Joon exists - basically to keep the crew cost low to make more profit. The reason A343 aircrafts (high maintenance & operating cost) or the low yield routes are transferred to Joon from AF is that they weren't making enough profit or at all with the high crew wages and less productive schedules. It works on Joon as the operating cost comes down. Joon flights are still marketed as AF to make the customers not aware of the brand difference. In time, their plan is to increase Joon routes/crews/aircrafts as the AF unionized employers retire eventually or like someone said, they can even let AF go bust and keep Joon. Joon is sort of the new/future AF not Level or Eurowings.
 
Thibault973
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:13 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:

As you may know, Air France staff is way overpaid compared to other airlines. The problem is that they can't get rid of their overpaid staff, if they try anything the staff goes on strike. But those high wages put a pressure on their profits, other airlines are making significantly more profit than Air France because they got lower wages.

So what did they do? They started a second airline which they called Joon. There they put all the staff that does want to work for less money whilst keeping the overpaid staff at Air France. Joon is therefor more profitable than Air France. Any new pilot that is being attracted is attracted for Joon, not for Air France. In time Air France will shrink and Joon will grow, more and more routes will be transfered to Joon. The Joon staff can't demand the same wages as the Air France staff because it's a different airline. This brings them more in line with other airlines and at the same time they keep the overpaid Air France staff satisfied until their retirement. Or maybe sooner. Maybe they'll let Air France burst and continue with Joon only. A nice way to get rid of the overpaid staff.


AF has said that Joon's operating cost are between 15% to 18% lower than mainline.

What I find really (but reallyyyyyyyy) unfair is that Joon does not have it's own pilotes. All flight are flown by AF's pilots, with AF contracts and AF payroll while all cabin crews are JN's, with salaries around 40% lower than their collegues at AF.

As I said, Joon is heading for strike. On august 24th, 3 of Joon's unions sent a letter to the CEO saying they will strike soon if the flight attendants don't get a raise asap.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:23 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
As I said, Joon is heading for strike. On august 24th, 3 of Joon's unions sent a letter to the CEO saying they will strike soon if the flight attendants don't get a raise asap.


Which they won't get. Instead they'll all get sacked. They should learn to be satisfied with what they got instead of always wanting more. There is no more, this is it. Take it or leave it.
 
Thibault973
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:24 pm

As for AF's salaries, here are the average salaries in 2016 at the airlines (from their 2016 report, all salaries are "brut" which means before Non-wage labour costs - around 23% - and taxes - varies - )

Flight attendant (male) : 3 570 euros/month
Flight attendant (female): 3 635 euros/month
Purser (male) : 4 699 euros/month
Purser (female) : 4 648 euros/month
Chief purser (male) : 5 702 euros/months
Chief purser (female): 5 565 euros/month
Copilote (female) : 11 457 euros/month
Copilote (male): 12 759 euros/month
Captain (female): 17 842 euros/month
Captain (male): 16 043 euros/month
 
INFINITI329
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:03 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
As for AF's salaries, here are the average salaries in 2016 at the airlines (from their 2016 report, all salaries are "brut" which means before Non-wage labour costs - around 23% - and taxes - varies - )

Flight attendant (male) : 3 570 euros/month
Flight attendant (female): 3 635 euros/month
Purser (male) : 4 699 euros/month
Purser (female) : 4 648 euros/month
Chief purser (male) : 5 702 euros/months
Chief purser (female): 5 565 euros/month
Copilote (female) : 11 457 euros/month
Copilote (male): 12 759 euros/month
Captain (female): 17 842 euros/month
Captain (male): 16 043 euros/month


Why are there wage differences between men and women?
 
amadorE175
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:02 am

INFINITI329 wrote:

Why are there wage differences between men and women?


Different length of employment and pay grades across the sexes in each position, I would think. Tons of new folks would tend to drive down a subgroup's average and lots of experienced folks would drive up the average of a subgroup.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:54 am

Given that Joon has a separate AOC from AF mainline, I suspect that Joon is a lower cost structure airline designed to operate routes that couldn't be profitably be run at mainline AF. Their latest destination announced was UIO, which they had once served as a tag-on to BOG, but operated by EQ. This is unlike LEVEL in Spain, which is operated by Iberia crews (in France, LEVEL has its own AOC, the former L'Avion AOC, but it can't use those planes to fly the routes from BCN to South America because of bilateral issues).

As for why the remaining A343s at AF, those are fully paid off frames. I suspect that the A332s will be next to head to Joon. However, AF has a less dense configuration than EW (ex-CL/LH) A343s which are better adapted to an LCC model, but with a small J class.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:34 am

Thibault973 wrote:
As I said, Joon is heading for strike. On august 24th, 3 of Joon's unions sent a letter to the CEO saying they will strike soon if the flight attendants don't get a raise asap.


What a joke. AF thought they would create a strike proof airline and lo and behold it catches the bug in under a year! :lol:
Vahroone
 
avier
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:31 am

Thibault973 wrote:

As I said, Joon is heading for strike. On august 24th, 3 of Joon's unions sent a letter to the CEO saying they will strike soon if the flight attendants don't get a raise asap.


Defeats the whole purpose of creating Joon if they also again going to strike for higher wages.

Joon should have had its AOC registered in a different country, and then setup base in France. So probably they wouldn't be hassled with all the French labour laws. Would that work? ;) :?:
 
B777LRF
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:38 am

The purpose of Joon is to shaft the employees to satisfy corporate greed. Nothing more or less. Exactly the same as e.g. EuroWings and SAS Ireland.
Signature. You just read one.
 
rlwynn
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:33 am

How are they shafting the employees? No one is forcing them to work there.
I can drive faster than you
 
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J4YC3
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:40 am

rlwynn wrote:
How are they shafting the employees? No one is forcing them to work there.


Unless no one is forcing them to pay rent at the end of the month either, that's a disingenuous argument.

What's with the contempt for employees fighting to improve their working conditions?

mercure1 wrote:
Much of the European market routes - Barcelona, Berlin, Lisbon, Porto Rome, Naples, etc are markets where AF sees high percentage of leisure travelers and LCC competition which produced losses.


So much for turning that around then: At least in BCN, their passenger numbers have slumped since the introduction of the Joon product.
Bah, humbug!
 
B777LRF
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:43 am

J4YC3 wrote:
What's with the contempt for employees fighting to improve their working conditions?


A large number of contributors to this site fancy themselves as airline CEO's, whilst sitting in comfort of their parents basement. Suffice to say most of them probably couldn't organise a pish-up in a brewery, let alone manage a workforce.
Signature. You just read one.
 
Andy33
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:45 am

avier wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:

As I said, Joon is heading for strike. On august 24th, 3 of Joon's unions sent a letter to the CEO saying they will strike soon if the flight attendants don't get a raise asap.


Defeats the whole purpose of creating Joon if they also again going to strike for higher wages.

Joon should have had its AOC registered in a different country, and then setup base in France. So probably they wouldn't be hassled with all the French labour laws. Would that work? ;) :?:

Would it work? No. Two reasons:
One is that there are still a sizeable number of countries that have bilateral Air Service Agreements with France which permit only carriers with AOCs in France or the country involved to fly between them.
The other is that if you are employed to work in France, you're covered by French labour laws, regardless of where the employer's AOC is issued. Ryanair tried to get round that and lost when it came to court.
 
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RRTrent
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:43 am

It sounds to me similar if not the same as BA having a separate contract for Cabin Crew. BA didn't go a start a new airline, but started transferring routes to the mixed fleet contracted crew.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: What exactly is the point of Joon?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:33 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
KICT wrote:
Air France is simply the next in line to learn that paying employees B scale wages isn't going to work out long-term.


Are you crazy? First of all, Air France is probably the best paying airline in the world, definitely no B scale wages. I'd call Air France wages A++ scale. Recently I've heard that there are several Air France pilots that make over € 300.000 a year. That's insane, no other airline in the world pays that much.


Wrong. Nearly every first world country has senior pilots paid that much. EU/NA/ME even PRC are paying senior widebody pilots up to that area. After consideration of benefits and taxes, some earn more. That's not to mention the desirable Fedex/UPS positions known for its good pay. But as was quoted earlier in this thread the actual *average* pay (at AF and everywhere else) is significantly lower.

besides, you misunderstood KICT - they were saying that Joon pays "B scale" and not AF.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
And still they dare to complain. I'm sure Air France would love to get rid of those pilots, they cost far too much. However they got a permanent contract, they can't be fired. That's a problem for Air France. They can only wait for those pilots to retire and replace them with younger cheaper pilots.


Why the pilot hate?
what is your drive for low paid pilots - how does that improve your life? Is travel not cheap enough for you already?

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Of course they don't have to go as low as Ryanair. For comparison, a captain at Ryanair makes € 85.000 a year at maximum. This means some Air France pilots get paid over three and a half times as much as their colleagues at Ryanair for doing the same job. Those Ryanair pilots have the right to complain, they don't make much. But Air France pilots got nothing to complain, they get paid extremely well.


I hope you're wrong about max pay at Ryanair . I really am.

Other than that, I agree with everything :)

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