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Gonzalo
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Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:08 am

Flight crew performing an intersection take off turn into the wrong direction at the intersection and took off in less than 3.700 feet instead of the 9.900 feet of runway available in the correct direction. They were lucky enough to get the wheels off before runway end. Great situational awareness!!

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bded52d&opt=0

Rgds.
G
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:13 am

I hope you are being sarcastic. If they had "great situational awareness" they would have recognized the error and taxied to the correct takeoff position. You may want to read up on Comair 5191. This could have easily ended the same way.
 
rufusmi
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:13 am

Great situational awareness? Sounds pretty poor to me. A simple heading check would’ve allowed the crew to notice their mistake.
 
Qantas16
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:20 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope you are being sarcastic. If they had "great situational awareness" they would have recognized the error and taxied to the correct takeoff position. You may want to read up on Comair 5191. This could have easily ended the same way.


rufusmi wrote:
Great situational awareness? Sounds pretty poor to me. A simple heading check would’ve allowed the crew to notice their mistake.


Relax! He's clearly being sarcastic :-)
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:27 am

Of course I am being sarcastic !!! Not surprise both pilots were suspended and the airline banned intersection take offs immediately.

Rgds.
G.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:27 am

Qantas16 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope you are being sarcastic. If they had "great situational awareness" they would have recognized the error and taxied to the correct takeoff position. You may want to read up on Comair 5191. This could have easily ended the same way.


rufusmi wrote:
Great situational awareness? Sounds pretty poor to me. A simple heading check would’ve allowed the crew to notice their mistake.


Relax! He's clearly being sarcastic :-)


I hope so. But I've seen too many people who think narrowly avoiding disaster=awesome pilots. Hopefully these two cowboys are terminated. There are too many pilots who need jobs to keep these types around.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:02 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope you are being sarcastic. If they had "great situational awareness" they would have recognized the error and taxied to the correct takeoff position. You may want to read up on Comair 5191. This could have easily ended the same way.


rufusmi wrote:
Great situational awareness? Sounds pretty poor to me. A simple heading check would’ve allowed the crew to notice their mistake.


Relax! He's clearly being sarcastic :-)


I hope so. But I've seen too many people who think narrowly avoiding disaster=awesome pilots. Hopefully these two cowboys are terminated. There are too many pilots who need jobs to keep these types around.


All airline pilots should be like yourself and never make mistakes. At anything. Ever. Just like you.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:12 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:



Relax! He's clearly being sarcastic :-)


I hope so. But I've seen too many people who think narrowly avoiding disaster=awesome pilots. Hopefully these two cowboys are terminated. There are too many pilots who need jobs to keep these types around.


All airline pilots should be like yourself and never make mistakes. At anything. Ever. Just like you.


I'm not an airline pilot. This isn't a little mistake. When you bring 100+ people to the brink of death you need to be dealt with appropriately. Professionals such as accounts, brokers, etc routinely lose their jobs when they make bad financial decisions and cost the company or clients large sums of money. Playing chicken with the lives of others is a much more serious offense.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:29 am

Etheereal wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:

I hope so. But I've seen too many people who think narrowly avoiding disaster=awesome pilots. Hopefully these two cowboys are terminated. There are too many pilots who need jobs to keep these types around.


All airline pilots should be like yourself and never make mistakes. At anything. Ever. Just like you.


I'm not an airline pilot. This isn't a little mistake. When you bring 100+ people to the brink of death you need to be dealt with appropriately. Professionals such as accounts, brokers, etc routinely lose their jobs when they make bad financial decisions and cost the company or clients large sums of money. Playing chicken with the lives of others is a much more serious offense.

Again: Noone should make mistakes, and be like you.


So when do you think consequences should kick in?
 
worldranger
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:34 am

Gonzalo wrote:
Of course I am being sarcastic !!! Not surprise both pilots were suspended and the airline banned intersection take offs immediately.

Rgds.
G.


No more intersection take offs ?

Typical knee jerk reaction from M/E mgt
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:12 am

worldranger wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Of course I am being sarcastic !!! Not surprise both pilots were suspended and the airline banned intersection take offs immediately.

Rgds.
G.


No more intersection take offs ?

Typical knee jerk reaction from M/E mgt



Probably that measure will be only effective until a retraining or a meeting with the chief of pilots. That kind of measures cost money and shouldn’t last for a long time.
 
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neomax
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:44 am

The real question is not why they messed up but how the HELL they got off the ground!!!!!!!

I thought this was gonna be clickbait, it was not.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:42 am

Looking at the airfield map in the linked AV Herald article, I am confused as to how they could have turned right instead of left: the layout of the taxiway is clearly more optimised for left turns onto the runway, as the right turn is much sharper.

The AV Hearld article does not say, but at what time of the day did the incident occur? I wonder if it was night, and if so, was that a factor?
 
TC957
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:00 am

How come those in the tower missed seeing this and didn't instruct to cancel the take-off clearance ?
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:33 am

TC957 wrote:
How come those in the tower missed seeing this and didn't instruct to cancel the take-off clearance ?


Probably because by the time they noticed the aircraft was already lifting off.
 
T54A
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:03 am

The reason air travel is such a safe form of transport, is in part because we don’t just fire pilots for making mistakes. We try and understand why they made the mistake, and teach others to prevent them from doing the same. Those calling these guys cowboys clearly have a poor understanding of how a airline operation works. Intersection take offs are routinely used, worldwide, to save time and money. It is a very safe and calculated practice. Why these guys got it wrong will more than likely have nothing to do with ego or cowboys, but rather factors like fatigue, company training and airport familiarity.

I can’t believe we still have to teach people about Just Culture in 2018 and the benefits it’s had on overall flight safety
 
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zeke
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:50 am

vhtje wrote:
Looking at the airfield map in the linked AV Herald article, I am confused as to how they could have turned right instead of left: the layout of the taxiway is clearly more optimised for left turns onto the runway, as the right turn is much sharper.

The AV Hearld article does not say, but at what time of the day did the incident occur? I wonder if it was night, and if so, was that a factor?


I would like to know what mode the ND was selected in, my guess was plan.

Short 1 hr flight aircraft would have been light.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:12 am

vhtje wrote:
Looking at the airfield map in the linked AV Herald article, I am confused as to how they could have turned right instead of left: the layout of the taxiway is clearly more optimised for left turns onto the runway, as the right turn is much sharper.

The AV Hearld article does not say, but at what time of the day did the incident occur? I wonder if it was night, and if so, was that a factor?


I think you are looking at the wrong taxiway... if you are looking at where the red X marks are I believe that is indicating a closed taxiway, taxiway B14 that they were on (according to the article) is further down the runway and the turn for left and right at the intersection is the same turn angle for both directions.

And the flight departs at 4:20pm
 
Qantas16
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:17 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
TC957 wrote:
How come those in the tower missed seeing this and didn't instruct to cancel the take-off clearance ?


Probably because by the time they noticed the aircraft was already lifting off.


Then they would be some very inattentive air traffic controllers! They should have noticed once the aircraft started making the wrong turn, let alone by the time it throttled up.

Looking at the flight on FlightRadar24 is just crazy! Such a short distance (relative to the full runway) that it took off in!

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#1de86649
 
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vhtje
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:09 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
I think you are looking at the wrong taxiway... if you are looking at where the red X marks are I believe that is indicating a closed taxiway, taxiway B14 that they were on (according to the article) is further down the runway and the turn for left and right at the intersection is the same turn angle for both directions.

And the flight departs at 4:20pm


No, I am looking at taxiway B14:

AV Herald wrote:
the aircraft entered the runway for an intersection departure from taxiway B14 and turned into direction runway 12


The turn to the right is much sharper than the turn to the left. See this (arrow marking is my own):

Image

So light wasn't a factor. SHJ only has one runway (12/30), correct? Do we know what runway signage is in place on that taxiway? Could signage have been poor, thus contributing to this mistake?
I thought crew worked out their taxiway route from the stand to the take-off position either on a printed map or these days on an iPad?
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:25 pm

My thought is: even if the aircraft did get off safely, what effect did (could) such an error have on other traffic? ie, the next aircraft in line on finals, suddenly has an A320 climbing straight at it. This could easily have ended much worse.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:05 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
My thought is: even if the aircraft did get off safely, what effect did (could) such an error have on other traffic? ie, the next aircraft in line on finals, suddenly has an A320 climbing straight at it. This could easily have ended much worse.

If the A320 was cleared for take-off there wouldn't have been another aircraft on short final. And if they took off within 1150 m, their climb angle would far exceed the approach angle. Might have added some extra workload for the controller though, since they clearly weren't on the expected departure path.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:20 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope you are being sarcastic. If they had "great situational awareness" they would have recognized the error and taxied to the correct takeoff position. You may want to read up on Comair 5191. This could have easily ended the same way.


rufusmi wrote:
Great situational awareness? Sounds pretty poor to me. A simple heading check would’ve allowed the crew to notice their mistake.


I'm wondering how both of you might question if the OP's comment was sarcastic as much as you are questioning if the flight crew mentioned in this thread are any good at their job.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:30 pm

"Possible pilot deviation, I have a number for you to call"
 
kabq737
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:36 pm

worldranger wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Of course I am being sarcastic !!! Not surprise both pilots were suspended and the airline banned intersection take offs immediately.

Rgds.
G.


No more intersection take offs ?

Typical knee jerk reaction from M/E mgt

It’s a good decision. They will assess what led to this incident and determine if retraining is needed. It’s all in the name of safety and safety is something that should never be compromised on.
 
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litz
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:51 pm

There are many airports where aircraft take off, and other aircraft are landing behind them, with appropriate spacing to keep everything safe.

This A320 could EASILY have been flying directly into the face of an approaching landing aircraft in this instance.

There's a REASON that controllers clear for specific directions, etc!
 
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kjeld0d
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:42 pm

neomax wrote:
The real question is not why they messed up but how the HELL they got off the ground!!!!!!!

I thought this was gonna be clickbait, it was not.


Arabian nights, like Arabian days
More often than not
Are hotter than hot
In a lot of good ways.
 
Viper911
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:46 pm

The way some people here cannot understand basic sarcasm surprises me even more than the incident in question

Viper911
 
Antarius
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:49 pm

I'm amazed they got airborne at all.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:50 pm

mxaxai wrote:
YYZYYT wrote:
My thought is: even if the aircraft did get off safely, what effect did (could) such an error have on other traffic? ie, the next aircraft in line on finals, suddenly has an A320 climbing straight at it. This could easily have ended much worse.

If the A320 was cleared for take-off there wouldn't have been another aircraft on short final. And if they took off within 1150 m, their climb angle would far exceed the approach angle. Might have added some extra workload for the controller though, since they clearly weren't on the expected departure path.

Wouldn't need to be short final... at speed any distance between two approaching aircraft closes really fast (unplanned for). And then there is the turn to heading for destination, crossing other incoming traffic. Altitude is the saving grace of course.

Tugg
 
HTCone
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:09 pm

T54A wrote:

I can’t believe we still have to teach people about Just Culture in 2018 and the benefits it’s had on overall flight safety


The only people who still need teaching are amateurs who don’t work in the industry. Those of us who do know why firing people who make mistakes reduces safety.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:22 pm

HTCone wrote:
T54A wrote:

I can’t believe we still have to teach people about Just Culture in 2018 and the benefits it’s had on overall flight safety


The only people who still need teaching are amateurs who don’t work in the industry. Those of us who do know why firing people who make mistakes reduces safety.


By that reasoning no one should ever be fired. If I lost a loved one in a plane crash and found out the crew had repeatedly made mistakes on previous flights then I would say the airline is going to be in hot water as far as liability goes.

Look at Northwest Airlink 5719. The captain had known anger issues and it was documented that he was too aggressive on the controls and would deliberately give passengers a rough ride. He was combative with his first officers and took no input from them. Eventually he ended up crashing a flight and killing everyone. Are you telling me someone like that should be kept on the flight deck?
 
asdf
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:34 pm

one doesnt need to ruin their complete future, but they should feel consequeces for that stunt that it really hurts

if you earn 150.000,- a month for a 25 hour week your brain has to be „online“ 100% of your working time ( its so few hours that you can be concetrated 100% of the time)

its not fair?
well
its not fair to bring 100+ passengers in life danger neither ...
 
RandWkop
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:37 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
HTCone wrote:
T54A wrote:

I can’t believe we still have to teach people about Just Culture in 2018 and the benefits it’s had on overall flight safety


The only people who still need teaching are amateurs who don’t work in the industry. Those of us who do know why firing people who make mistakes reduces safety.


By that reasoning no one should ever be fired. If I lost a loved one in a plane crash and found out the crew had repeatedly made mistakes on previous flights then I would say the airline is going to be in hot water as far as liability goes.

Look at Northwest Airlink 5719. The captain had known anger issues and it was documented that he was too aggressive on the controls and would deliberately give passengers a rough ride. He was combative with his first officers and took no input from them. Eventually he ended up crashing a flight and killing everyone. Are you telling me someone like that should be kept on the flight deck?

No, of course he should not be in the cockpit. But the fact that it happened shows that the airline had no systems in place to detect these issues in a pilot in the first place. So the fault is not just with the person but the entire organisation. His behavior should have been corrected before it got to the point of him crashing a plane. Also if it was evident that he would not respond to retraining, the airline would have terminated his employment.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:50 pm

Tugger wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
YYZYYT wrote:
My thought is: even if the aircraft did get off safely, what effect did (could) such an error have on other traffic? ie, the next aircraft in line on finals, suddenly has an A320 climbing straight at it. This could easily have ended much worse.

If the A320 was cleared for take-off there wouldn't have been another aircraft on short final. And if they took off within 1150 m, their climb angle would far exceed the approach angle. Might have added some extra workload for the controller though, since they clearly weren't on the expected departure path.

Wouldn't need to be short final... at speed any distance between two approaching aircraft closes really fast (unplanned for). And then there is the turn to heading for destination, crossing other incoming traffic. Altitude is the saving grace of course.

Tugg

I don't know what you consider a short final but aircraft are cleared to take off in front of aircraft a couple miles from the threshold all day long. If there is a problem with the aircraft taking off the controller will just send the landing aircraft around. Busy airports would never get anyone off if they didn't do this. Airplanes generally ALWAYS take off and land in the same direction due to the winds. Airports with parallel runways a lot of times will land on both runways and then take off in the gaps.
 
Antarius
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:52 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
HTCone wrote:
T54A wrote:

I can’t believe we still have to teach people about Just Culture in 2018 and the benefits it’s had on overall flight safety


The only people who still need teaching are amateurs who don’t work in the industry. Those of us who do know why firing people who make mistakes reduces safety.


By that reasoning no one should ever be fired. If I lost a loved one in a plane crash and found out the crew had repeatedly made mistakes on previous flights then I would say the airline is going to be in hot water as far as liability goes.

Look at Northwest Airlink 5719. The captain had known anger issues and it was documented that he was too aggressive on the controls and would deliberately give passengers a rough ride. He was combative with his first officers and took no input from them. Eventually he ended up crashing a flight and killing everyone. Are you telling me someone like that should be kept on the flight deck?


To the last question, absolutely not. No one is saying bad apples who purposely disregard rules and do not follow CRM should be kept forever. If the pilots on the Air Arabia flight had a history of cockups and carelessness and were terminated, thats a vastly different circumstance than the arguments being made above - that this one incident should result in the pilots being fired.

This is a giant screwup, but unless the pilots willfully disregarded ATC and everything, there are likely holistic improvements that can be made to improve safety for everyone. IMO, thats the point being made.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:07 pm

litz wrote:
There are many airports where aircraft take off, and other aircraft are landing behind them, with appropriate spacing to keep everything safe.

This A320 could EASILY have been flying directly into the face of an approaching landing aircraft in this instance.

There's a REASON that controllers clear for specific directions, etc!

Exactly. This is scary. I hope a good investigation from nde the root cause. If it is pilot fatigue, the airline owns the issue.

Lightsaber
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:54 pm

Late comment, the 2 month delay is in my opinion an attempt to open in 2018. The cynic in me takes that as a denial of reality.

Lightsaber
 
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OA940
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:14 pm

SDU and LCY will be glad to hear this ;)
 
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vhtje
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:30 pm

Viper911 wrote:
The way some people here cannot understand basic sarcasm surprises me even more than the incident in question

Viper911


Do remember this is a popular site internationally, so an awful lot of posters do not have English as their first language. Sarcasm can be hard to detect for a non-native English speaker.
 
RobertPhoenix
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:47 pm

litz wrote:
There are many airports where aircraft take off, and other aircraft are landing behind them, with appropriate spacing to keep everything safe.


I'm sure it is common, but I can still remember how impressed I was watching movements at LHR when they had one runway closed on a Sunday. For a long time it was like clockwork. A plane would turn onto the runway to take off, immediately start rolling, and then 60 seconds later a plane would land on the very same spot.

(You can tell how long ago that was. They still had a terrace with a cafe on the top of terminal 2, giving you a fine view of the whole airport)
 
Q
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:40 am

What's going on in the control tower controllers see the active plane on the runway to give them clear to take off the wrong direction plane? How could the controller see this? Wasn't the controller have bad sight eyes :eyepopping: with thick glasses? Eh? Controllers and pilots are FAILED at the same airport. WOW! How it could happen? :banghead:

Q
 
32andBelow
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:59 am

Q wrote:
What's going on in the control tower controllers see the active plane on the runway to give them clear to take off the wrong direction plane? How could the controller see this? Wasn't the controller have bad sight eyes :eyepopping: with thick glasses? Eh? Controllers and pilots are FAILED at the same airport. WOW! How it could happen? :banghead:

Q

Maybe they cleared him when he was still on the taxi way. But either way he should have said something after he turned on.
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:58 am

Qantas16 wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
TC957 wrote:
How come those in the tower missed seeing this and didn't instruct to cancel the take-off clearance ?


Probably because by the time they noticed the aircraft was already lifting off.


Then they would be some very inattentive air traffic controllers They should have noticed once the aircraft started making the wrong turn, let alone by the time it throttled up.

Looking at the flight on FlightRadar24 is just crazy! Such a short distance (relative to the full runway) that it took off in!

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#1de86649


In europe somewhere there was a similar incident, tower recognised it immediately when he turned the wrong way, and repeatedly called the pilot who didnt respond as they were so focussed on their take off tasks. What's to say this isn't also the case here?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:16 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I hope you are being sarcastic. If they had "great situational awareness" they would have recognized the error and taxied to the correct takeoff position. You may want to read up on Comair 5191. This could have easily ended the same way.


rufusmi wrote:
Great situational awareness? Sounds pretty poor to me. A simple heading check would’ve allowed the crew to notice their mistake.


Relax! He's clearly being sarcastic :-)


I hope so. But I've seen too many people who think narrowly avoiding disaster=awesome pilots. Hopefully these two cowboys are terminated. There are too many pilots who need jobs to keep these types around.


While I fully agree they should be fired. But based on lack of qualified pilots worldwide. I would say your misinformed on the number of pilots looking for a job.
 
T54A
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Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:27 am

The chance of this been willful negligence is almost zero. I can’t imagine any professional pilot (never mind two), would willfully take of with little runway left, downwind (assuming that was the case here), into on coming traffic. Unwillfull negligence perhaps. As we have all (those who are prepared to read) seen time and time again, how the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up is the important issue. Not the final incident itself.
 
Armodeen
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Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:59 am

T54A wrote:
The reason air travel is such a safe form of transport, is in part because we don’t just fire pilots for making mistakes. We try and understand why they made the mistake, and teach others to prevent them from doing the same. Those calling these guys cowboys clearly have a poor understanding of how a airline operation works. Intersection take offs are routinely used, worldwide, to save time and money. It is a very safe and calculated practice. Why these guys got it wrong will more than likely have nothing to do with ego or cowboys, but rather factors like fatigue, company training and airport familiarity.

I can’t believe we still have to teach people about Just Culture in 2018 and the benefits it’s had on overall flight safety


Exactly what I was going to post. The aviation industry has led the world on this sort of incident response practice, and my field (medical) has learnt the lessons. We now have a culture which encourages incident reporting and a 95% learning outcome rate from incident investigation.

Nobody died, let’s not panic or be instantly punitive, there is an opportunity to learn lessons here.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:54 pm

Armodeen wrote:
T54A wrote:
The reason air travel is such a safe form of transport, is in part because we don’t just fire pilots for making mistakes. We try and understand why they made the mistake, and teach others to prevent them from doing the same. Those calling these guys cowboys clearly have a poor understanding of how a airline operation works. Intersection take offs are routinely used, worldwide, to save time and money. It is a very safe and calculated practice. Why these guys got it wrong will more than likely have nothing to do with ego or cowboys, but rather factors like fatigue, company training and airport familiarity.

I can’t believe we still have to teach people about Just Culture in 2018 and the benefits it’s had on overall flight safety


Exactly what I was going to post. The aviation industry has led the world on this sort of incident response practice, and my field (medical) has learnt the lessons. We now have a culture which encourages incident reporting and a 95% learning outcome rate from incident investigation.

Nobody died, let’s not panic or be instantly punitive, there is an opportunity to learn lessons here.


I would agree that anyone who self-reperts an error should be given every opportunity for retraining. But if you try and hide it then you should be done. As an example, I can respect a pilot who would reach out to HR and tell them they have a drinking problem and want to get help. But a pilot that shows up to a flight intoxicated should face the most severe consequences available.
 
FlyingViking
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:16 am

Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:49 pm

Back in the late 70's early 80's before the airport authorities closed the inside viewing area in the terminal, I watched a Thai 747-200 use about 4000 feet of runway for it's T/O roll off runway 4R in Copenhagen. They were airborne before the old runway 18-36 intersection. The plane was operating a tag on service from Copenhagen to Hamburg, a 30 minute flight with maybe 2 hours of fuel, and with who knows how few people and cargo for load. With all systems(engines) go, most jets can get airborne with a lot of runway left, but all jets also has to take into account the risk of an engine failure. So the 4000 feet this 747 needed for getting airborne, would with numbers for "accelerate stop" or "accelerate go" translate into I assume right around 6000-8000 feet needed of available runway, in order to be legal. In other words had the Air Arabia Airbus lost an engine at V1, the outcome would most likely have been very very different in a very very bad way.
 
beechnut
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Air Arabia pilots turn an A320 into a STOL aircraft

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:22 pm

As a pilot, I never understood intersection takeoffs. An old adage in aviation says the three most useless things in aviation are runway behind you, altitude above you, and fuel in the fuel truck. My old Beech C23 which I sold last year had a takeoff requirement at MGTOW of something like 1600 ft if memory serves. One local field I would use often had a 6000 ft runway with only one taxiway joining it at mid-field. You had to backtrack to either end to use the full runway. I would *always* use the full available length, even though 3000 ft was more than adequate. If the engine quite just after rotation, using the full 6000 ft I had more than enough distance to put it back down without bending anything. With only 3000 ft, I'd be looking at putting it down in the daisies and approach lights or overrunning.

That said, with jets, depending on gross weight they can get off in surprisingly short distances if not heavy and not using flex power settings. The Brazilians have been operating with 737s from the 4200 and 4300 ft runways at Santos Dumont in Rio for ages, quite safely, on short hops to Sao Paulo.

Beech

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