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SANFan
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WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:01 pm

Due to be released on Thursday, 9/27, opening the booking window thru June 8, 2019. Not the peak summer schedule, but getting real close.

As has been said for a long time, neither HI nor PAE should be announced as part of a normal schedule release like this. I have no rumors to relay but I'm sure others do. I do have my personal wish list but what do others expect/hope for?

bb
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:44 pm

Wasn't it out off until mid November? Hawaii ain't happening for awhile...
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
dbo861
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:32 am

mtnwest1979 wrote:
Wasn't it out off until mid November? Hawaii ain't happening for awhile...


They moved it to middle of November for a few days but it’s back to Sept 27 now.

https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-sc ... TSCHEDULES
 
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SANFan
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:53 am

dbo861 wrote:
mtnwest1979 wrote:
Wasn't it out off until mid November? Hawaii ain't happening for awhile...


They moved it to middle of November for a few days but it’s back to Sept 27 now.

https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-sc ... TSCHEDULES

Thank you dbo'.. I started this thread after seeing the dates given on the 'Flight Schedules' page just a few hours ago, as you have linked.

So as of now, this topic should be good to go!

bb
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:06 am

Guess they can do it on original date since don't have to wait and hope for HI flights. Hopefully some good new ptp runs.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
jplatts
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:06 pm

Even though WN already has nonstop service to most of its domestic destinations out of MDW, WN could add MDW-ELP and MDW-RIC nonstop service.

WN is still expanding its domestic operation at HOU, and WN could add HOU-CVG, HOU-CLE, HOU-DTW, HOU-MSP, HOU-ONT, and HOU-SFO nonstop service.
 
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mke717spotter
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:29 pm

Is WN still operating MKE-SAN/SFO seasonally or has it been cut? Its not showing up on the route map anymore even though those destinations are still listed on MKE's Wikipedia page.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
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knope2001
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:44 pm

mke717spotter wrote:
Is WN still operating MKE-SAN/SFO seasonally or has it been cut? Its not showing up on the route map anymore even though those destinations are still listed on MKE's Wikipedia page.


Still seasonal -- the "season" ended a few weeks ago but no reason to suggest they are not returning in 2019. The Southwest route map reflects only what nonstop routes are scheduled in the existing booking window. When the booking window expands to include at least one nonstop in the market() the route map will show it again.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:50 pm

mke717spotter wrote:
Is WN still operating MKE-SAN/SFO seasonally or has it been cut? Its not showing up on the route map anymore even though those destinations are still listed on MKE's Wikipedia page.


As far as I know, MKE-SFO is a seasonal nonstop route on WN. However, I could see WN adding MKE-OAK nonstop service and permanently discontinuing MKE-SFO nonstop service since WN had moved the ATL-SFO nonstop route inherited from the WN-FL merger over to OAK and since WN will be discontinuing PDX-SFO and SNA-SFO nonstop service in November.

As far as I know, MKE-SAN is a seasonal nonstop route that is expected to be resumed in April 2019.
 
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SANFan
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:42 pm

jplatts wrote:
As far as I know, MKE-SAN is a seasonal nonstop route that is expected to be resumed in April 2019.

However, MKE-SAN did not resume in 2018 until the June schedule release and then it op'd for only 2 months...

But I'm still hoping that both MKE and IND, SAN's remaining 'seasonal' nonstops, will return on this upcoming release. Our 3rd seasonal route, TPA, has already restarted with the previous (3/7/19) extension. It looks like it only was 'seasonally' dropped during January and February 2019.)

I would also love to see SAN-ELP get boosted a bit -- should be easy from its current Sunday-only operation now. (Of interest, that means WN is being out-served in a market by Allegiant! That is, when G4 is operating the route.) I think it's about time for WN to fight for the market with a daily, year-round r/t. (Of course AS's EMJ would be the perfect a/c for the route, a better fit than either WN or G4 for the traffic currently in the market. But AS seems uninterested...)

My wish list for new WN destinations out of SAN, besides the elusive HNL, OGG, LIH & KOA waiting in the wings, is quite extensive but I would be surprised to see anything new on this extension. Maybe the next one? (SAN currently sees 33/34 unique airports served by WN; GEG being the unknown resulting in "33 or 34".) WN at SAN is apparently going to get additional gate space soon, in T1W, so there should be some room for expansion in addition to Hawaii.

bb
 
jplatts
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:51 pm

SANFan wrote:
My wish list for new WN destinations out of SAN, besides the elusive HNL, OGG, LIH & KOA waiting in the wings, is quite extensive but I would be surprised to see anything new on this extension. Maybe the next one? (SAN currently sees 33/34 unique airports served by WN; GEG being the unknown resulting in "33 or 34".) WN at SAN is apparently going to get additional gate space soon, in T1W, so there should be some room for expansion in addition to Hawaii.

bb


In addition to nonstop service to Hawaii from SAN, WN could also add SAN-BOS, SAN-MSP, and SAN-OMA nonstop service in order to better compete against AS in the SAN market.
 
dbo861
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:04 pm

jplatts wrote:
Even though WN already has nonstop service to most of its domestic destinations out of MDW, WN could add MDW-ELP and MDW-RIC nonstop service.

WN is still expanding its domestic operation at HOU, and WN could add HOU-CVG, HOU-CLE, HOU-DTW, HOU-MSP, HOU-ONT, and HOU-SFO nonstop service.


jplatts wrote:

In addition to nonstop service to Hawaii from SAN, WN could also add SAN-BOS, SAN-MSP, and SAN-OMA nonstop service in order to better compete against AS in the SAN market.


Here we go again...
 
stlgph
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:48 pm

yay! this again!

my guesses --

8 times daily between Chicago Midway and wherever Mamma Mia 2 was filmed.

and 1 daily from Spokane.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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stl07
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:25 am

stlgph wrote:
yay! this again!

my guesses --

8 times daily between Chicago Midway and wherever Mamma Mia 2 was filmed.

and 1 daily from Spokane.

What is it with you and Spokane? :D
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777Mech
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:22 am

WN could also add RIC-PVG as well.
 
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stl07
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:51 am

I predict a major expansion into Branson
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
FLDude
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:10 am

777Mech wrote:
WN could also add RIC-PVG as well.


Now there's a long thin route. :D
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:02 am

dbo861 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Even though WN already has nonstop service to most of its domestic destinations out of MDW, WN could add MDW-ELP and MDW-RIC nonstop service.

WN is still expanding its domestic operation at HOU, and WN could add HOU-CVG, HOU-CLE, HOU-DTW, HOU-MSP, HOU-ONT, and HOU-SFO nonstop service.


jplatts wrote:

In addition to nonstop service to Hawaii from SAN, WN could also add SAN-BOS, SAN-MSP, and SAN-OMA nonstop service in order to better compete against AS in the SAN market.


Here we go again...


One day it’ll come true. But, SAN-MSP won’t. That’s just crazy. SY, DL, and AS
 
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FA9295
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:33 am

Oh good, another thread where I can start spamming PDX-MKE/BNA again... and year-round PDX-BWI... :D
 
727200
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:52 am

Why is this news or even a post? An airline is coming out with a schedule, ok. I would suggest that when the sked is out and it shows NEW destinations, then a thread opens up.

This is resemblance of fan boys work.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:10 am

727200 wrote:
Why is this news or even a post? An airline is coming out with a schedule, ok. I would suggest that when the sked is out and it shows NEW destinations, then a thread opens up.

This is resemblance of fan boys work.

Why does it matter to you?
When wasn't America great?


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jbpdx
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:12 am

FA9295 wrote:
Oh good, another thread where I can start spamming PDX-MKE/BNA again... and year-round PDX-BWI... :D



The only airlines less interested in PDX than Southwest are Frontier, JetBlue, Spirit and Allegiant, not necessarily in that order.
^
 
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FA9295
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:20 am

727200 wrote:
Why is this news or even a post? An airline is coming out with a schedule, ok. I would suggest that when the sked is out and it shows NEW destinations, then a thread opens up.

This is resemblance of fan boys work.

We've been starting these Southwest network threads for a very long time. And as far as I know, Southwest is the only airline that gives definitive dates for their schedule updates. There's no problem in discussing this at all.
 
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SANFan
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:06 am

FA9295 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Why is this news or even a post? An airline is coming out with a schedule, ok. I would suggest that when the sked is out and it shows NEW destinations, then a thread opens up.

We've been starting these Southwest network threads for a very long time. And as far as I know, Southwest is the only airline that gives definitive dates for their schedule updates. There's no problem in discussing this at all.

Also, each sked is a brand new one -- started from scratch. And as you said, FA9', WN sked releases are quite unique in the industry and worthy of pre-discussion (is that a word?) and each is generally surrounded by rumors (most of which, of course, are complete nonsense.)

Like Enilria's Sunday morning OAG threads, these WN sked extension threads are just part of A.net!

And since last time I checked, there is no law requiring anyone to read these threads, there's really no reason for anyone to post complaints about their existence, ON THE THREAD!. Just don't read them!

bb
 
WN732
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:43 am

SANFan wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Why is this news or even a post? An airline is coming out with a schedule, ok. I would suggest that when the sked is out and it shows NEW destinations, then a thread opens up.

We've been starting these Southwest network threads for a very long time. And as far as I know, Southwest is the only airline that gives definitive dates for their schedule updates. There's no problem in discussing this at all.

Also, each sked is a brand new one -- started from scratch. And as you said, FA9', WN sked releases are quite unique in the industry and worthy of pre-discussion (is that a word?) and each is generally surrounded by rumors (most of which, of course, are complete nonsense.)

Like Enilria's Sunday morning OAG threads, these WN sked extension threads are just part of A.net!

And since last time I checked, there is no law requiring anyone to read these threads, there's really no reason for anyone to post complaints about their existence, ON THE THREAD!. Just don't read them!

bb


The OAG threads and these WN schedule threads are among my top favorite to read. I don't know why some folks are against some harmless speculation. Heck, once in a while we even get a few right on the money.
 
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SANFan
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:53 pm

It's interesting, and I don't know why, but this particular WN-Sked-Extension thread has now reached 25 posts with only a couple of posts talking about what is expected or hoped to be included in the new schedule -- the whole purpose of the thread! Heck, I don't think there's been even a single (serious) rumor!

Maybe these threads have run their course, with little interest in the topic anymore. We'll see what next week brings as we approach Thursday...

bb
 
Judge1310
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:05 pm

SANFan wrote:
It's interesting, and I don't know why, but this particular WN-Sked-Extension thread has now reached 25 posts with only a couple of posts talking about what is expected or hoped to be included in the new schedule -- the whole purpose of the thread! Heck, I don't think there's been even a single (serious) rumor!

Maybe these threads have run their course, with little interest in the topic anymore. We'll see what next week brings as we approach Thursday...

bb


You just said it. The point is, great that there is a date that SWA says they'll post a schedule release, but it's seriously ridiculous to speculate on what they "might" do. It's far more interesting to discuss what they actually will do....wait for it...when they release their schedules.

And jplatts....dude/tte...everywhere cannot be connecting to everywhere else. Chill for bit...
 
wnflyguy
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:10 pm

SANFan wrote:
It's interesting, and I don't know why, but this particular WN-Sked-Extension thread has now reached 25 posts with only a couple of posts talking about what is expected or hoped to be included in the new schedule -- the whole purpose of the thread! Heck, I don't think there's been even a single (serious) rumor!

Maybe these threads have run their course, with little interest in the topic anymore. We'll see what next week brings as we approach Thursday...

bb


It's because Hawaii & PAE are both waiting on the FAA.
LGB is waiting on JetBlues official surrender of slots.
Rumor have the LGB slots will be given out by next week.
WN also is rethinking growth plans for 2019/20 due to the rise in fuel prices. And possibly start retirement of the early 700NG airframes sometime next year.
I only expect normal bulk flying extended with maybe one or 2 additional new nonstop markets.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
jplatts
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:50 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
LGB is waiting on JetBlues official surrender of slots.
Rumor have the LGB slots will be given out by next week.


WN is likely to add LGB-PHX and LGB-SJC nonstop service if WN can acquire enough slots at LGB.
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:03 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
WN also is rethinking growth plans for 2019/20 due to the rise in fuel prices. And possibly start retirement of the early 700NG airframes sometime next year.
I only expect normal bulk flying extended with maybe one or 2 additional new nonstop markets.

Flyguy

I think these are the reasons people don't seem real excited about this release. But I'm not sure that 2019/20 oil prices are too much of a factor since there isn't expected to be an economy draining spike. So, unless they expect increased costs to reduce demand, then it comes down to their fleet and fuel costs against the competition. And if they like today's oil costs better than what they expect next year, then they are not shy about hedging.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:09 pm

jplatts wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
LGB is waiting on JetBlues official surrender of slots.
Rumor have the LGB slots will be given out by next week.


WN is likely to add LGB-PHX and LGB-SJC nonstop service if WN can acquire enough slots at LGB.


If WN gained the 6 other slots I think 4 SJC and make 2 daily DEN vs any PHX.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
nine4nine
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:25 pm

SANFan wrote:
It's interesting, and I don't know why, but this particular WN-Sked-Extension thread has now reached 25 posts with only a couple of posts talking about what is expected or hoped to be included in the new schedule -- the whole purpose of the thread! Heck, I don't think there's been even a single (serious) rumor!

Maybe these threads have run their course, with little interest in the topic anymore. We'll see what next week brings as we approach Thursday...

bb



Agree. This site has become nothing more than an I know more than you let’s argue site. It’s ridiculous. Been on here for almost two decades and the quality of the members is crashing to the ground.

If you’re not Interested In the topic move along. Very simple.

Anyways back to the post. Any guesses as to what’s to come? More beefing up the west coast to fend off AS? More SNA reductions, Intl adds, new markets, or the never ending Hawaii saga??

In regards Hawaii why is it taking them years when Airlines like G4, VX,AS, and SY did it in relatively no time. What is the difficulty with hawaii?
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
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enilria
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:50 pm

nine4nine wrote:
SANFan wrote:
It's interesting, and I don't know why, but this particular WN-Sked-Extension thread has now reached 25 posts with only a couple of posts talking about what is expected or hoped to be included in the new schedule -- the whole purpose of the thread! Heck, I don't think there's been even a single (serious) rumor!

Maybe these threads have run their course, with little interest in the topic anymore. We'll see what next week brings as we approach Thursday...

bb



Agree. This site has become nothing more than an I know more than you let’s argue site. It’s ridiculous. Been on here for almost two decades and the quality of the members is crashing to the ground.

If you’re not Interested In the topic move along. Very simple.

Anyways back to the post. Any guesses as to what’s to come? More beefing up the west coast to fend off AS? More SNA reductions, Intl adds, new markets, or the never ending Hawaii saga??

In regards Hawaii why is it taking them years when Airlines like G4, VX,AS, and SY did it in relatively no time. What is the difficulty with hawaii?

This may already be public, but I have been hearing that WN has given up on waiting for MAX ETOPS and will go forward with Hawaii using current gen 737-800s. Not sure what that does to the timeline.

Also, I think the last WN schedule change was such a let down that it deflated these threads. Frankly, I don't think WN has much up its sleeve these days network-wise. They seem more like UA from 7 years ago where the network basically stagnated year after year. Just to go down the list:

Change in Departures from July 2014 to July 2018, July 2017 to July 2018
OAK +16%, +3%; One of the better growth stories
LAX +5%, -1%; No gates
LAS -1%, 0%; I think the DEN expansion took the wind out of the sails for them in LAS
PHX +6%, +2%; Ditto LAS, shocking they haven't done Mexico. Grown more than I expected.
DEN +23%, +1%; They more or less achieved what they wanted with F9 de-hubbing. UA got a second wind and now they have flat-lined.
DAL +50%, +1%; Gates
HOU +8%, +4%; Like PHX, surprised they have done more internationally. More growth than I expected, but oil is back up.
MDW +5%, -1%; I don't know what the gate situation is, but they also seem to be pretty much flat-lining for growth.
Northeast USA - So they seem like they are lost in this whole region, excepting long-time hub BWI which is a strong (although not really growing) point. The rest is a wasteland of constantly changing routes, but the general direction isn't good.
BWI +9%, -3%; Surprised they have not done more Caribbean. It doesn't seem like int'l has gone that well here. Domestic is shrinking.
BNA +23%, +4%; If anywhere in their network seems to be going in the right direction it's BNA.
STL +25%, +7%; Similar to BNA.
ATL +109% from merger, +1%; Hard to see in the numbers because of the merger, but going backwards very slowly.
FLL +66%, +15%; I think they want to expand more, but as NK's MCO move showed there's really no space to grow.
MCO +16%, -1%; Not much going on here either and a lot of competition.

Worst in the last year:
EWR -7%
MHT -13%
MEM -6%
SJD -9%
PNS -8%
BZE -8%

Best
JAX +30%; Didn't realize that??? What did they add?
LGB +21%
PUJ +22%
MEX +33%, this will be rolling back
NAS +73%
 
jplatts
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:58 pm

enilria wrote:
Change in Departures from July 2014 to July 2018, July 2017 to July 2018
LAX +5%, -1%; No gates


While WN was maxed out at LAX while Terminal 1 was being renovated at LAX, WN will have room to add more flights out of LAX in 2019 since Terminal 1 renovations at LAX are scheduled for completion by the end of this year.
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:31 pm

enilria wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
SANFan wrote:
It's interesting, and I don't know why, but this particular WN-Sked-Extension thread has now reached 25 posts with only a couple of posts talking about what is expected or hoped to be included in the new schedule -- the whole purpose of the thread! Heck, I don't think there's been even a single (serious) rumor!

Maybe these threads have run their course, with little interest in the topic anymore. We'll see what next week brings as we approach Thursday...

bb



Agree. This site has become nothing more than an I know more than you let’s argue site. It’s ridiculous. Been on here for almost two decades and the quality of the members is crashing to the ground.

If you’re not Interested In the topic move along. Very simple.

Anyways back to the post. Any guesses as to what’s to come? More beefing up the west coast to fend off AS? More SNA reductions, Intl adds, new markets, or the never ending Hawaii saga??

In regards Hawaii why is it taking them years when Airlines like G4, VX,AS, and SY did it in relatively no time. What is the difficulty with hawaii?

This may already be public, but I have been hearing that WN has given up on waiting for MAX ETOPS and will go forward with Hawaii using current gen 737-800s. Not sure what that does to the timeline.



That was the plan from the initial announcement so I don’t think that has any impact on the timeline.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:49 pm

enilria wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
SANFan wrote:
It's interesting, and I don't know why, but this particular WN-Sked-Extension thread has now reached 25 posts with only a couple of posts talking about what is expected or hoped to be included in the new schedule -- the whole purpose of the thread! Heck, I don't think there's been even a single (serious) rumor!

Maybe these threads have run their course, with little interest in the topic anymore. We'll see what next week brings as we approach Thursday...

bb



Agree. This site has become nothing more than an I know more than you let’s argue site. It’s ridiculous. Been on here for almost two decades and the quality of the members is crashing to the ground.

If you’re not Interested In the topic move along. Very simple.

Anyways back to the post. Any guesses as to what’s to come? More beefing up the west coast to fend off AS? More SNA reductions, Intl adds, new markets, or the never ending Hawaii saga??

In regards Hawaii why is it taking them years when Airlines like G4, VX,AS, and SY did it in relatively no time. What is the difficulty with hawaii?

This may already be public, but I have been hearing that WN has given up on waiting for MAX ETOPS and will go forward with Hawaii using current gen 737-800s. Not sure what that does to the timeline.

Also, I think the last WN schedule change was such a let down that it deflated these threads. Frankly, I don't think WN has much up its sleeve these days network-wise. They seem more like UA from 7 years ago where the network basically stagnated year after year. Just to go down the list:

Change in Departures from July 2014 to July 2018, July 2017 to July 2018
OAK +16%, +3%; One of the better growth stories
LAX +5%, -1%; No gates
LAS -1%, 0%; I think the DEN expansion took the wind out of the sails for them in LAS
PHX +6%, +2%; Ditto LAS, shocking they haven't done Mexico. Grown more than I expected.
DEN +23%, +1%; They more or less achieved what they wanted with F9 de-hubbing. UA got a second wind and now they have flat-lined.
DAL +50%, +1%; Gates
HOU +8%, +4%; Like PHX, surprised they have done more internationally. More growth than I expected, but oil is back up.
MDW +5%, -1%; I don't know what the gate situation is, but they also seem to be pretty much flat-lining for growth.
Northeast USA - So they seem like they are lost in this whole region, excepting long-time hub BWI which is a strong (although not really growing) point. The rest is a wasteland of constantly changing routes, but the general direction isn't good.
BWI +9%, -3%; Surprised they have not done more Caribbean. It doesn't seem like int'l has gone that well here. Domestic is shrinking.
BNA +23%, +4%; If anywhere in their network seems to be going in the right direction it's BNA.
STL +25%, +7%; Similar to BNA.
ATL +109% from merger, +1%; Hard to see in the numbers because of the merger, but going backwards very slowly.
FLL +66%, +15%; I think they want to expand more, but as NK's MCO move showed there's really no space to grow.
MCO +16%, -1%; Not much going on here either and a lot of competition.

Worst in the last year:
EWR -7%
MHT -13%
MEM -6%
SJD -9%
PNS -8%
BZE -8%

Best
JAX +30%; Didn't realize that??? What did they add?
LGB +21%
PUJ +22%
MEX +33%, this will be rolling back
NAS +73%


MEM saw competition and cheaper connections via Frontier and Allegiant. Frontier entered the MCO fray as well. WN had cut back on DAL and it hit western connecting in the process on top of F9 adding LAS to put two LCCs along with G4 on it.

WN has responded by adding 3x daily to DAL for better western connecting times and by adding DEN this October. They still need to add LAS in addition to DEN and that would really open up connections to Cali and other western stops. Not to mention AA adding a second daily to PHX for better western connectivity and upping PHL and DCA pressuring WN's MEM/BWI flight for connecting to New England.

MEM/DEN needs to be O&D and PNW connection centered and better timed flights elsewhere. I still think they should route a plane ???- MSY-MEM-STL-IND and back daily
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:03 pm

enilria wrote:
MDW +5%, -1%; I don't know what the gate situation is, but they also seem to be pretty much flat-lining for growth.


I am pretty sure they are constrained at MDW. They have said that in the past and have said they have moved flights and connectors to STL because of it.

----

As for adds this time around I can't remember what all got added this extension last year. I think SJC/SMF got some adds. I know STL was added to both of them last April, maybe AUS did also? I thought STL-JAX might get added last extension but was a little surprised when both MBJ and PUJ were added, I thought one maybe, but not both. So for this one I will throw out STL-JAX/(ORF or RIC) again. Those are the next two in line PDEW wise. We'll see. Hopefully someone gets some new routes.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5462
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:11 pm

All it takes is economy tanking for wn to have new opportunities again. Right now, I think they are gate restricted from the bigger airports that are not a fortress hub , so their growth has been in places like Nashville and St. Louis. Who knows what will happen when we get a downturn and ua or aa has to cut back? Wn is in a good position to grow still.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1740
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:51 pm

tphuang wrote:
All it takes is economy tanking for wn to have new opportunities again. Right now, I think they are gate restricted from the bigger airports that are not a fortress hub , so their growth has been in places like Nashville and St. Louis. Who knows what will happen when we get a downturn and ua or aa has to cut back? Wn is in a good position to grow still.
Where exactly would AA or UA be cutting back that WN would want to grow?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Vctony
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 1999 10:51 am

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:02 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
tphuang wrote:
All it takes is economy tanking for wn to have new opportunities again. Right now, I think they are gate restricted from the bigger airports that are not a fortress hub , so their growth has been in places like Nashville and St. Louis. Who knows what will happen when we get a downturn and ua or aa has to cut back? Wn is in a good position to grow still.
Where exactly would AA or UA be cutting back that WN would want to grow?


AA would cut back in PHX (and potentially LAX). WN has large stations both places where they would be able to grow.
 
737max8
Posts: 648
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:24 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
enilria wrote:
nine4nine wrote:


Agree. This site has become nothing more than an I know more than you let’s argue site. It’s ridiculous. Been on here for almost two decades and the quality of the members is crashing to the ground.

If you’re not Interested In the topic move along. Very simple.

Anyways back to the post. Any guesses as to what’s to come? More beefing up the west coast to fend off AS? More SNA reductions, Intl adds, new markets, or the never ending Hawaii saga??

In regards Hawaii why is it taking them years when Airlines like G4, VX,AS, and SY did it in relatively no time. What is the difficulty with hawaii?

This may already be public, but I have been hearing that WN has given up on waiting for MAX ETOPS and will go forward with Hawaii using current gen 737-800s. Not sure what that does to the timeline.



That was the plan from the initial announcement so I don’t think that has any impact on the timeline.


Yeah, SWA said in press releases months ago that it would be the 737-800 and then the MAX later.

I also laugh that people actually think these schedule release dates have anything to do with Hawaii. It surely will be it's own announcement once it's approved.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A220 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A339 A343 A346 A359 A388
 
nine4nine
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:14 pm

737max8 wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
enilria wrote:
This may already be public, but I have been hearing that WN has given up on waiting for MAX ETOPS and will go forward with Hawaii using current gen 737-800s. Not sure what that does to the timeline.



That was the plan from the initial announcement so I don’t think that has any impact on the timeline.


Yeah, SWA said in press releases months ago that it would be the 737-800 and then the MAX later.

I also laugh that people actually think these schedule release dates have anything to do with Hawaii. It surely will be it's own announcement once it's approved.



Sorry not everyone here is an “Expert” and people learn things about this industry by asking questions especially on this forum.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
User avatar
knope2001
Posts: 3031
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:54 am

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:19 am

enilria wrote:

Best
JAX +30%; Didn't realize that??? What did they add?


They got FLL back (3x/day). A definite bright spot after losing well over half their flights during the previous ten years. The new weekday JAX-DAL coming in 2019 will help too.

Weekday JAX departures (includes FL prior to consoliation)

2008... 29/day
2009... 28/day
2010... 27/day...lost IND
2011... 26/day...gained DEN
2012... 23/day...lost PHL
2013... 21/day...lost TPA, MDW replaces BHM
2014... 18/day...lost ORF
2015... 15/day...lost FLL
2016... 14/day
2017... 13/day...lost LAS
2018... 16/day...restored FLL
 
Runway28L
Posts: 2101
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:35 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:52 am

enilria wrote:
Northeast USA - So they seem like they are lost in this whole region, excepting long-time hub BWI which is a strong (although not really growing) point. The rest is a wasteland of constantly changing routes, but the general direction isn't good.

I have to give this a +1 to this. I completely agree that WN doesn't really have a clear strategy in the Northeast outside of BWI. Just take a look at BOS vs MHT for example. WN drew down MHT in favor of BOS and the whole Boston operation hasn't really been all spectacular it seems while MHT has lost out big time compared to a decade ago. WN also hasn't taken any real advantage to draw down high fares on NYC -> mid-sized city routes. They also ceded to US and abandoned ship on the PHL operation.

Now this could probably be because of the degree of competition in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic regions, congestion, or operational hurdles (DCA and LGA being slot restricted, EWR being tight on gates, etc). It's just unfortunate because I really like WN a lot. But this has caused me to not even consider them when I am traveling anywhere on the East Coast with Florida being the lone exception. AA and B6 are just way better choices for me since their networks work out best.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10301
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:53 pm

knope2001 wrote:
enilria wrote:

Best
JAX +30%; Didn't realize that??? What did they add?


They got FLL back (3x/day). A definite bright spot after losing well over half their flights during the previous ten years. The new weekday JAX-DAL coming in 2019 will help too.

Weekday JAX departures (includes FL prior to consoliation)

2008... 29/day
2009... 28/day
2010... 27/day...lost IND
2011... 26/day...gained DEN
2012... 23/day...lost PHL
2013... 21/day...lost TPA, MDW replaces BHM
2014... 18/day...lost ORF
2015... 15/day...lost FLL
2016... 14/day
2017... 13/day...lost LAS
2018... 16/day...restored FLL

I guess one route made the difference.
Runway28L wrote:
enilria wrote:
Northeast USA - So they seem like they are lost in this whole region, excepting long-time hub BWI which is a strong (although not really growing) point. The rest is a wasteland of constantly changing routes, but the general direction isn't good.

I have to give this a +1 to this. I completely agree that WN doesn't really have a clear strategy in the Northeast outside of BWI. Just take a look at BOS vs MHT for example. WN drew down MHT in favor of BOS and the whole Boston operation hasn't really been all spectacular it seems while MHT has lost out big time compared to a decade ago. WN also hasn't taken any real advantage to draw down high fares on NYC -> mid-sized city routes. They also ceded to US and abandoned ship on the PHL operation.

Now this could probably be because of the degree of competition in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic regions, congestion, or operational hurdles (DCA and LGA being slot restricted, EWR being tight on gates, etc). It's just unfortunate because I really like WN a lot. But this has caused me to not even consider them when I am traveling anywhere on the East Coast with Florida being the lone exception. AA and B6 are just way better choices for me since their networks work out best.

So I basically agree with all of that.

I think old WN could make MHT work because they were cheaper. The combination of WN no longer being an LCC and B6 putting low-ish fares at BOS made MHT untenable as their regional gateway. So they were forced into BOS where head to head B6 has basically beaten them except to BWI which is probably leaning heavily on WAS point of sale.

Having said all of that they would be even more screwed if they had stayed at MHT and B6 was at BOS. So, bottom line it boils down to B6 won in Boston.

PHL is another long-time problem area for WN. Frankly, I don't really know why WN didn't take off in PHL. I think now it really hurts at OA hubs to not be in the OTA sales systems, but that was less of an excuse 10-15 years ago when they are also not getting traction in PHL. I think it's basically a mystery why WN never became a significant player in PHL. So, bottom line I guess US won.

Part of WN's problem in the NE is that originally their formula for success was a price based strategy. Low fares allowed them to hold market share. Now they more or less have a suffocation strategy. If they have a vastly superior schedule they will hold market share. That works well everywhere except Florida and the Northeast which are basically low frequency markets. Florida is low frequency because only the peak flight works really well for tourists and a 6am out or a 2300 in don't work in all the tourist markets. Everybody wants 12noon in and 12 noon out. The added flights don't really build loyalty. Northeast is low frequency because high frequency routes basically have to be short and in big markets. WN doesn't have enough gate/slot assets to do that from anywhere except BWI. And that isn't enough to get critical mass in markets like PHL and BOS. Other than buying B6 which I hope to god would not be allowed, I don't see a path to WN becoming a player in the Northeast.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:13 pm

enilria wrote:
knope2001 wrote:
enilria wrote:

Best
JAX +30%; Didn't realize that??? What did they add?


They got FLL back (3x/day). A definite bright spot after losing well over half their flights during the previous ten years. The new weekday JAX-DAL coming in 2019 will help too.

Weekday JAX departures (includes FL prior to consoliation)

2008... 29/day
2009... 28/day
2010... 27/day...lost IND
2011... 26/day...gained DEN
2012... 23/day...lost PHL
2013... 21/day...lost TPA, MDW replaces BHM
2014... 18/day...lost ORF
2015... 15/day...lost FLL
2016... 14/day
2017... 13/day...lost LAS
2018... 16/day...restored FLL

I guess one route made the difference.
Runway28L wrote:
enilria wrote:
Northeast USA - So they seem like they are lost in this whole region, excepting long-time hub BWI which is a strong (although not really growing) point. The rest is a wasteland of constantly changing routes, but the general direction isn't good.

I have to give this a +1 to this. I completely agree that WN doesn't really have a clear strategy in the Northeast outside of BWI. Just take a look at BOS vs MHT for example. WN drew down MHT in favor of BOS and the whole Boston operation hasn't really been all spectacular it seems while MHT has lost out big time compared to a decade ago. WN also hasn't taken any real advantage to draw down high fares on NYC -> mid-sized city routes. They also ceded to US and abandoned ship on the PHL operation.

Now this could probably be because of the degree of competition in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic regions, congestion, or operational hurdles (DCA and LGA being slot restricted, EWR being tight on gates, etc). It's just unfortunate because I really like WN a lot. But this has caused me to not even consider them when I am traveling anywhere on the East Coast with Florida being the lone exception. AA and B6 are just way better choices for me since their networks work out best.

So I basically agree with all of that.

I think old WN could make MHT work because they were cheaper. The combination of WN no longer being an LCC and B6 putting low-ish fares at BOS made MHT untenable as their regional gateway. So they were forced into BOS where head to head B6 has basically beaten them except to BWI which is probably leaning heavily on WAS point of sale.

Having said all of that they would be even more screwed if they had stayed at MHT and B6 was at BOS. So, bottom line it boils down to B6 won in Boston.

PHL is another long-time problem area for WN. Frankly, I don't really know why WN didn't take off in PHL. I think now it really hurts at OA hubs to not be in the OTA sales systems, but that was less of an excuse 10-15 years ago when they are also not getting traction in PHL. I think it's basically a mystery why WN never became a significant player in PHL. So, bottom line I guess US won.

Part of WN's problem in the NE is that originally their formula for success was a price based strategy. Low fares allowed them to hold market share. Now they more or less have a suffocation strategy. If they have a vastly superior schedule they will hold market share. That works well everywhere except Florida and the Northeast which are basically low frequency markets. Florida is low frequency because only the peak flight works really well for tourists and a 6am out or a 2300 in don't work in all the tourist markets. Everybody wants 12noon in and 12 noon out. The added flights don't really build loyalty. Northeast is low frequency because high frequency routes basically have to be short and in big markets. WN doesn't have enough gate/slot assets to do that from anywhere except BWI. And that isn't enough to get critical mass in markets like PHL and BOS. Other than buying B6 which I hope to god would not be allowed, I don't see a path to WN becoming a player in the Northeast.


Spot on.
I think unfortunately the with future pilots shortages every one is facing it's going to spark another round of mergers. WN found itself fighting a losing war against FL so it bought and killed it off. Now with B6 growth on the Northern Eastern US,FL and Caribbean it's making that Apple look perfectly tasty now. Robin B6 CEO said he would entertain all merger offers last year.
Airline 101 can't kill them then Buy them.

With Hawaii and PAE looking like spring 2019.
WN has quite a few aircraft sitting idle for Hawaii.
Wouldn't be surprised if they add a few November/December seasonal long hauls with these aircraft since Hawaii end year start up Is fading fast.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10301
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:23 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
Spot on.
I think unfortunately the with future pilots shortages every one is facing it's going to spark another round of mergers. WN found itself fighting a losing war against FL so it bought and killed it off. Now with B6 growth on the Northern Eastern US,FL and Caribbean it's making that Apple look perfectly tasty now. Robin B6 CEO said he would entertain all merger offers last year.
Airline 101 can't kill them then Buy them.

With Hawaii and PAE looking like spring 2019.
WN has quite a few aircraft sitting idle for Hawaii.
Wouldn't be surprised if they add a few November/December seasonal long hauls with these aircraft since Hawaii end year start up Is fading fast.

Flyguy

I think Congress will allow the pilot situation to get a lot worse, but will eventually weaken the hours req for copilots and avert the whole debacle, but it will have to get considerably worse before that.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3794
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:58 pm

enilria wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
enilria wrote:
Northeast USA - So they seem like they are lost in this whole region, excepting long-time hub BWI which is a strong (although not really growing) point. The rest is a wasteland of constantly changing routes, but the general direction isn't good.

I have to give this a +1 to this. I completely agree that WN doesn't really have a clear strategy in the Northeast outside of BWI. Just take a look at BOS vs MHT for example. WN drew down MHT in favor of BOS and the whole Boston operation hasn't really been all spectacular it seems while MHT has lost out big time compared to a decade ago.


I think old WN could make MHT work because they were cheaper. The combination of WN no longer being an LCC and B6 putting low-ish fares at BOS made MHT untenable as their regional gateway. So they were forced into BOS where head to head B6 has basically beaten them except to BWI which is probably leaning heavily on WAS point of sale.

Having said all of that they would be even more screwed if they had stayed at MHT and B6 was at BOS. So, bottom line it boils down to B6 won in Boston.


WN does have nonstop service out of BOS to a few markets that aren't served by B6 such as CMH, IND, MCI, MKE, and STL. In addition, WN serves MDW and DAL nonstop from BOS whereas B6 serves ORD and DFW nonstop from BOS.

There are still a few additional markets that WN could add nonstop service to out of BOS, including ABQ, CVG, SDF, OMA, and SAT. WN is considering adding BOS-CVG nonstop service in order to provide additional competition on BOS-CVG, even though CVG is already served nonstop from BOS on DL. There is also enough demand for WN to add BOS-SAT nonstop service since there is currently no nonstop service to BOS out of SAT on any airline and since there is an average of 240 passengers a day who traveled between BOS and SAT in 2017.

WN still carries more passengers out of BOS per year than it does at CLE, CMH, DTW, IND, SDF, MKE, MSP, OMA, PHL, PIT, RDU, or SLC.
 
evank516
Posts: 2170
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:04 pm

jplatts wrote:
enilria wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
I have to give this a +1 to this. I completely agree that WN doesn't really have a clear strategy in the Northeast outside of BWI. Just take a look at BOS vs MHT for example. WN drew down MHT in favor of BOS and the whole Boston operation hasn't really been all spectacular it seems while MHT has lost out big time compared to a decade ago.


I think old WN could make MHT work because they were cheaper. The combination of WN no longer being an LCC and B6 putting low-ish fares at BOS made MHT untenable as their regional gateway. So they were forced into BOS where head to head B6 has basically beaten them except to BWI which is probably leaning heavily on WAS point of sale.

Having said all of that they would be even more screwed if they had stayed at MHT and B6 was at BOS. So, bottom line it boils down to B6 won in Boston.


WN does have nonstop service out of BOS to a few markets that aren't served by B6 such as CMH, IND, MCI, MKE, and STL. In addition, WN serves MDW and DAL nonstop from BOS whereas B6 serves ORD and DFW nonstop from BOS.

There are still a few additional markets that WN could add nonstop service to out of BOS, including ABQ, CVG, SDF, OMA, and SAT. WN is considering adding BOS-CVG nonstop service in order to provide additional competition on BOS-CVG, even though CVG is already served nonstop from BOS on DL. There is also enough demand for WN to add BOS-SAT nonstop service since there is currently no nonstop service to BOS out of SAT on any airline and since there is an average of 240 passengers a day who traveled between BOS and SAT in 2017.

WN still carries more passengers out of BOS per year than it does at CLE, CMH, DTW, IND, SDF, MKE, MSP, OMA, PHL, PIT, RDU, or SLC.


You're not understanding the problem with BOS. WN is having trouble taking on B6 in general and if it's not B6, it's DL that they have to go up against.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10301
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: WN's Next Schedule Extension Due Out Sept 27, 2018

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:11 pm

jplatts wrote:
enilria wrote:
Runway28L wrote:
I have to give this a +1 to this. I completely agree that WN doesn't really have a clear strategy in the Northeast outside of BWI. Just take a look at BOS vs MHT for example. WN drew down MHT in favor of BOS and the whole Boston operation hasn't really been all spectacular it seems while MHT has lost out big time compared to a decade ago.


I think old WN could make MHT work because they were cheaper. The combination of WN no longer being an LCC and B6 putting low-ish fares at BOS made MHT untenable as their regional gateway. So they were forced into BOS where head to head B6 has basically beaten them except to BWI which is probably leaning heavily on WAS point of sale.

Having said all of that they would be even more screwed if they had stayed at MHT and B6 was at BOS. So, bottom line it boils down to B6 won in Boston.


WN does have nonstop service out of BOS to a few markets that aren't served by B6 such as CMH, IND, MCI, MKE, and STL. In addition, WN serves MDW and DAL nonstop from BOS whereas B6 serves ORD and DFW nonstop from BOS.

There are still a few additional markets that WN could add nonstop service to out of BOS, including ABQ, CVG, SDF, OMA, and SAT. WN is considering adding BOS-CVG nonstop service in order to provide additional competition on BOS-CVG, even though CVG is already served nonstop from BOS on DL. There is also enough demand for WN to add BOS-SAT nonstop service since there is currently no nonstop service to BOS out of SAT on any airline and since there is an average of 240 passengers a day who traveled between BOS and SAT in 2017.

WN still carries more passengers out of BOS per year than it does at CLE, CMH, DTW, IND, SDF, MKE, MSP, OMA, PHL, PIT, RDU, or SLC.

I think that makes the point. They are avoiding overlap with B6 because that didn't go well.
evank516 wrote:
You're not understanding the problem with BOS. WN is having trouble taking on B6 in general and if it's not B6, it's DL that they have to go up against.

I think there's truth to that, but I think B6 and WN both have trouble with NK/F9.

Here is the irony:
NK/F9 because they have a carry on bag fee are able to under price B6 because they only have a checked bag fee.
NK/F9/B6 are able to underprice WN because WN basically has all the fees included.
WN is able to "underprice" the legacies inside 14 days advance purchase and with better ticket change terms. (which really only helps in high frequency business markets)
The legacies are able to match or nearly match NK/F9 because of their recently created Basic Economy products.
The legacies are able to undercut B6/WN because of their recently created Basic Economy products.
It's really a complete round robin.

To me the worst situation is where a legacy is using Basic Economy to "match" NK/F9 and B6/WN are also in the market; because B6/WN can either match the legacy basic economy and lose their shirt or charge more than legacy which will dry up demand to nothing unless it's a strength point like BOS for B6 or one of the WN "hubs". Both are really bad options.

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