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Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:10 pm
by UA857
From looking at this https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... pe=747-400 why does QF have two ex MH 744s and on ex OZ 744?

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:17 pm
by ZK-NBT
During the Asian financial crisis in the late 1990’s, some airlines in that part of the world had over capacity. These were going a lot cheaper than new build 744’s so QF picked them up.

The 2 ex MH frames were with QF VH-OEC/OED and were the first 744’s withdrawn by QF in 2009 whilethe ex OZ VH-OEB is still in service today.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:31 pm
by NearMiss
They needed the extra capacity, so they took advantage of the Asian Financial Crisis and that many Asian carriers were trying to sell some planes and got them at very good rates.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:44 pm
by 777PHX
The three ugly sisters.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:17 pm
by Lufthansa
I dont think you realise how cheap they got them! Those asian carriers needed to raise cash and off load ongoing expenses (remember even if an aircraft doesn't fly all week if its there ready to go it still costs all the regular expenses maintenance wise) and it was clear both of those airlines bought too many. In the case of MH they shouldn't have bought any GE powered ones when the rest of the fleet was PW... and they needed to show their bankers they were doing something. The Rumour is QF got near new 744s for about 30 million each. Hell thats the kind of prices they were paying for 737s at the time. Also at the time the South East Asian carriers where all having a bit of a giant pissing contest called "keeping up with SIA" which was based more on politicians motives that business sense. It was basically an offer too good for QF to refuse. They probably saved 150 million a piece and they already had the CF6-80 engine in the 767 fleet so zero investment was required there. To give you some idea of the crazy stuff going on, MH was flying from KUL to South Africa to Argentina.... a route with probably zero demand.... but a few very senior Malaysian politicians happened to own ranches there. Sure the service was amazing but these things bleed money and they flew them we what was then the largest aircraft on the market. No demand from Malaysia... and no feed in either SA or AR. They had no justification for keeping so many 744s and they got offloaded. It wasn't just them. Even JAL was forced to do it. It seemed only Cathay and Singapore escaped it. QF however needed the extra capacity so they all came knocking to their door.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:19 am
by lightsaber
Lufthansa wrote:
I dont think you realise how cheap they got them! Those asian carriers needed to raise cash and off load ongoing expenses (remember even if an aircraft doesn't fly all week if its there ready to go it still costs all the regular expenses maintenance wise) and it was clear both of those airlines bought too many. In the case of MH they shouldn't have bought any GE powered ones when the rest of the fleet was PW... and they needed to show their bankers they were doing something. The Rumour is QF got near new 744s for about 30 million each. Hell thats the kind of prices they were paying for 737s at the time. Also at the time the South East Asian carriers where all having a bit of a giant pissing contest called "keeping up with SIA" which was based more on politicians motives that business sense. It was basically an offer too good for QF to refuse. They probably saved 150 million a piece and they already had the CF6-80 engine in the 767 fleet so zero investment was required there. To give you some idea of the crazy stuff going on, MH was flying from KUL to South Africa to Argentina.... a route with probably zero demand.... but a few very senior Malaysian politicians happened to own ranches there. Sure the service was amazing but these things bleed money and they flew them we what was then the largest aircraft on the market. No demand from Malaysia... and no feed in either SA or AR. They had no justification for keeping so many 744s and they got offloaded. It wasn't just them. Even JAL was forced to do it. It seemed only Cathay and Singapore escaped it. QF however needed the extra capacity so they all came knocking to their door.

QF was a buyer at the right time. Basically, they bought the aircraft for the value of the parts. Any profitable flying was a bonus. This was before airlines realized how cheap buying a 747 for the engines was.

QF did well.

Lightsaber

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:10 am
by Pacific
Lufthansa wrote:
It seemed only Cathay and Singapore escaped it.


CX had intended to keep their 747 Classics for longer, fitting even Economy class with PTVs. They all went out.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:49 am
by B-HOP
Lufthansa wrote:
I dont think you realise how cheap they got them! Those asian carriers needed to raise cash and off load ongoing expenses (remember even if an aircraft doesn't fly all week if its there ready to go it still costs all the regular expenses maintenance wise) and it was clear both of those airlines bought too many. In the case of MH they shouldn't have bought any GE powered ones when the rest of the fleet was PW... and they needed to show their bankers they were doing something. The Rumour is QF got near new 744s for about 30 million each. Hell thats the kind of prices they were paying for 737s at the time. Also at the time the South East Asian carriers where all having a bit of a giant pissing contest called "keeping up with SIA" which was based more on politicians motives that business sense. It was basically an offer too good for QF to refuse. They probably saved 150 million a piece and they already had the CF6-80 engine in the 767 fleet so zero investment was required there. To give you some idea of the crazy stuff going on, MH was flying from KUL to South Africa to Argentina.... a route with probably zero demand.... but a few very senior Malaysian politicians happened to own ranches there. Sure the service was amazing but these things bleed money and they flew them we what was then the largest aircraft on the market. No demand from Malaysia... and no feed in either SA or AR. They had no justification for keeping so many 744s and they got offloaded. It wasn't just them. Even JAL was forced to do it. It seemed only Cathay and Singapore escaped it. QF however needed the extra capacity so they all came knocking to their door.


When MH offloaded their GE powered 744, they were 7 years old (delivered in 1991), that is a bargain! They ordered GE then PW all because of senior official cream some out of it. When those 744 were ordered, the 777-200ER weren't proven yet, but soon, knowing how capable 772ER were, 744 were a bit too much, apart from LHR, SYD/MEL. At that time, EK were still small and kangaroo route were dominated by SQ; MH, TG, CX etc also had a slice out of the pie.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:18 am
by smi0006
777PHX wrote:
The three ugly sisters.


I vaguely recall the MH bird maybe had a significant corrosion/cracking issue at one point. It was discovered that during a MH repaint a spatula had been used to scrape paint off near the tail and had caused a scratch, then being painted over incorrectly.

I’ll try doing some digging in case I have the rumour wrong!

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:50 am
by crownvic
There are also cases of many "behind the scenes" transactions, where the purchase is solely for parts, never intending to place the aircraft into the flying fleet. For example, I remember a few years back, Delta was buying several 747 types from Korean Air including 747-300s. Again, these were parts acquisitions only.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:04 am
by TheFlyingDisk
Lufthansa wrote:
In the case of MH they shouldn't have bought any GE powered ones when the rest of the fleet was PW... and they needed to show their bankers they were doing something.


The PW fleet was actually ordered & delivered after the GE planes. The last of the initial 4 GE 747s were delivered on June 1991, while the first PW 747 was delivered in August 1992.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:14 am
by smi0006
QF also leased a BA 744 at this time also VH-NLH (never leaves the hangar) - operated in a hybrid livery with BA config. Then of course they also inherited/leases the BA ACE 767s too

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:13 am
by VirginFlyer
I think it is rather appropriate that the airline from Oz has a 747 from OZ.

V/F

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:30 am
by jupiter2
smi0006 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
The three ugly sisters.


I vaguely recall the MH bird maybe had a significant corrosion/cracking issue at one point. It was discovered that during a MH repaint a spatula had been used to scrape paint off near the tail and had caused a scratch, then being painted over incorrectly.

I’ll try doing some digging in case I have the rumour wrong!


I heard it was a Stanley Knife (box cutting knife) used to scrape out sealant in a join. The scratch from the knife scrape had developed into a crack over time and they were indeed lucky to discover it when they did.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:38 am
by raylee67
Pacific wrote:
Lufthansa wrote:
It seemed only Cathay and Singapore escaped it.


CX had intended to keep their 747 Classics for longer, fitting even Economy class with PTVs. They all went out.


CX bought some second hand 747-412 from SQ too, although much later, as it needed to ramp up capacity quick with the economic recovery.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:52 am
by BA174
VH-OEB still soldering on as the sole QF 744 with the old interiors/Rockwell IFE. It’s had a fair few life extensions.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:54 am
by vhtje
smi0006 wrote:
QF also leased a BA 744 at this time also VH-NLH (never leaves the hangar) - operated in a hybrid livery with BA config.


I remember that aircraft. According to the Qantas Source, it spent nearly two and half years with QF, from November 2000 to March 2003. Wouldn’t the oddball configuration and different hardware have caused confusion for passengers? Does anyone remember what configuration it had? Did it have cradle seats or the original New Club World Ying/Yang beds? (The current Next Generation Club World seats were not introduced until 2006)

It might be very confusing if a passenger was expecting a Qantas Mk1 Skybed and ended up getting a Ying/Yang Club World instead. How did QF market this, if at all?

Oddly QF’s and BA’s First cabins were pretty similar at the time, so I suppose no problems there. Did VH-NLH have World Traveller Plus? I don’t think QF had premium Economy before the A380 in 2008, so that would have been confusing as well.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:01 pm
by angusjt
OEB is surely the next QF 747 to go into retirement, it's amazing to think they've kept her around longer than they did with OJT (a newer and refurbished aircraft retired only yesterday).

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:02 pm
by angusjt
vhtje wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF also leased a BA 744 at this time also VH-NLH (never leaves the hangar) - operated in a hybrid livery with BA config.


I remember that aircraft. According to the Qantas Source, it spent nearly two and half years with QF, from November 2000 to March 2003. Wouldn’t the oddball configuration and different hardware have caused confusion for passengers? Does anyone remember what configuration it had? Did it have cradle seats or the original New Club World Ying/Yang beds? (The current Next Generation Club World seats were not introduced until 2006)

It might be very confusing if a passenger was expecting a Qantas Mk1 Skybed and ended up getting a Ying/Yang Club World instead. How did QF market this, if at all?

Oddly QF’s and BA’s First cabins were pretty similar at the time, so I suppose no problems there. Did VH-NLH have World Traveller Plus? I don’t think QF had premium Economy before the A380 in 2008, so that would have been confusing as well.


Lurking through some older fourms on this site tells me NLH spent most it's time on the SYD-HKG route.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:15 pm
by DL757NYC
crownvic wrote:
There are also cases of many "behind the scenes" transactions, where the purchase is solely for parts, never intending to place the aircraft into the flying fleet. For example, I remember a few years back, Delta was buying several 747 types from Korean Air including 747-300s. Again, these were parts acquisitions only.



Didn’t Delta buy some MD-11’s for engines also. I would ha e died if they bought them to fly like NW did with the very last DC-10’s built and flew them until 2008

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:29 pm
by qf002
vhtje wrote:
Does anyone remember what configuration it had? Did it have cradle seats or the original New Club World Ying/Yang beds? (The current Next Generation Club World seats were not introduced until 2006)

It might be very confusing if a passenger was expecting a Qantas Mk1 Skybed and ended up getting a Ying/Yang Club World instead. How did QF market this, if at all?


The configuration was (from what I can tell) 14F/55J/332Y with new First and cradle seats in J.

The original Skybed wasn’t introduced until 2003 so I imagine the seats were pretty much on par with the standard QF product.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:59 pm
by Crosswind
smi0006 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
The three ugly sisters.


I vaguely recall the MH bird maybe had a significant corrosion/cracking issue at one point. It was discovered that during a MH repaint a spatula had been used to scrape paint off near the tail and had caused a scratch, then being painted over incorrectly.

I’ll try doing some digging in case I have the rumour wrong!


Here you go... almost 15 years ago to the day;
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=216053

Regards
CROSSWIND

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:57 pm
by zululima
angusjt wrote:
OEB is surely the next QF 747 to go into retirement, it's amazing to think they've kept her around longer than they did with OJT (a newer and refurbished aircraft retired only yesterday).


Why? Because it's the oddball? Ever hear of hours and cycles? Fleet planning doesn't work like that. They aren't going to do a full C/D check to keep a "non-oddball" flying and retire a frame with useful life left. OEB has been integrated into QFs fleet for years, they have the spares, etc. already, so they will keep flying it. Don't be surprised if in fact the next 744 retired is actually an ER, while OEB and OJS/OJU stay.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:05 pm
by ClassicLover
vhtje wrote:
Oddly QF’s and BA’s First cabins were pretty similar at the time, so I suppose no problems there. Did VH-NLH have World Traveller Plus? I don’t think QF had premium Economy before the A380 in 2008, so that would have been confusing as well.


Could well be because BA owned up to a quarter of QF through to 2004 or so. They did cooperate quite closely at the time, so it would make sense for them to have a relatively comparable product since they didn't really compete on many routes when it comes down to it.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:21 am
by juliuswong
qf002 wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Does anyone remember what configuration it had? Did it have cradle seats or the original New Club World Ying/Yang beds? (The current Next Generation Club World seats were not introduced until 2006)

It might be very confusing if a passenger was expecting a Qantas Mk1 Skybed and ended up getting a Ying/Yang Club World instead. How did QF market this, if at all?


The configuration was (from what I can tell) 14F/55J/332Y with new First and cradle seats in J.

The original Skybed wasn’t introduced until 2003 so I imagine the seats were pretty much on par with the standard QF product.

Would be interesting to see its LOPA datasheet/seatmap. Qantas has the best fleet webpage.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:13 am
by BA174
zululima wrote:
angusjt wrote:
OEB is surely the next QF 747 to go into retirement, it's amazing to think they've kept her around longer than they did with OJT (a newer and refurbished aircraft retired only yesterday).


Why? Because it's the oddball? Ever hear of hours and cycles? Fleet planning doesn't work like that. They aren't going to do a full C/D check to keep a "non-oddball" flying and retire a frame with useful life left. OEB has been integrated into QFs fleet for years, they have the spares, etc. already, so they will keep flying it. Don't be surprised if in fact the next 744 retired is actually an ER, while OEB and OJS/OJU stay.


They musn’t have originally planned on keeping OEB this long though as surely it would’ve been refurbished like the others.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:01 pm
by Qantas59
VH-OEB was probably useful as an A380 substitute as they both had 14 F seats.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:28 pm
by BAeRJ100
BA174 wrote:
They musn’t have originally planned on keeping OEB this long though as surely it would’ve been refurbished like the others.


OEB had her first class seats refreshed just last year. My understanding is she is QF's aircraft of choice for the Captain's Choice tours. Sure, it still has a different configuration but obviously something with this aircraft works for QF.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:43 pm
by XAM2175
BAeRJ100 wrote:
BA174 wrote:
They musn’t have originally planned on keeping OEB this long though as surely it would’ve been refurbished like the others.

OEB had her first class seats refreshed just last year. My understanding is she is QF's aircraft of choice for the Captain's Choice tours.


My understanding from the time was that she was indeed slated for retirement sooner rather than later, but the charter commitments (to Captain's Choice definitely, and perhaps also others) meant they had to provide First Class and that meant either keeping OEB, using an A388, or actually installing F on another 744 - so OEB's F cabin got a quick spruce-up, but it was generally held that after the charters were done she'd be off the books.

Could be they've got a few more hires lined up, or the maintenance schedules have ended up with another bird due major work sooner - but by now yes it probably wouldn't have hurt from a product consistency standpoint to have done a front-to-back refresh.

Qantas59 wrote:
VH-OEB was probably useful as an A380 substitute as they both had 14 F seats.

Not a bad thought but I'd be surprised if that was actually the case - haven't done any great analysis of the way OEB was used compared to the other 744s but the general rotation of 744s and A388s means that they're pretty much never where they'd need to be in order to effect a substitution.

AFAIK crewing would also be a problem, both up front and in the cabin.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:00 pm
by BA174
Quick search on QF source finds that’s she spend an extended time in maintenance last year which has probably prolonged her service time also having mood lighting and added. She never seems short of doing scheduled flights around the charters however.

There’s a TR video on YouTube of OEB quite recently showing the mood lighting and the cabin etc doesn’t look in too bad of shape.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:02 pm
by BA174
Quick search on QF source finds that’s she spend an extended time in maintenance last year which has probably prolonged her service time also having mood lighting added. She never seems short of doing scheduled flights around the charters however.

There’s a TR video on YouTube of OEB quite recently showing the mood lighting and the cabin etc doesn’t look in too bad of shape.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:58 am
by EBT
vhtje wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF also leased a BA 744 at this time also VH-NLH (never leaves the hangar) - operated in a hybrid livery with BA config.


I remember that aircraft. According to the Qantas Source, it spent nearly two and half years with QF, from November 2000 to March 2003. Wouldn’t the oddball configuration and different hardware have caused confusion for passengers? Does anyone remember what configuration it had? Did it have cradle seats or the original New Club World Ying/Yang beds? (The current Next Generation Club World seats were not introduced until 2006)

It might be very confusing if a passenger was expecting a Qantas Mk1 Skybed and ended up getting a Ying/Yang Club World instead. How did QF market this, if at all?

Oddly QF’s and BA’s First cabins were pretty similar at the time, so I suppose no problems there. Did VH-NLH have World Traveller Plus? I don’t think QF had premium Economy before the A380 in 2008, so that would have been confusing as well.


I flew NLH in economy back in December 2002 on the AKL-LAX route, which at the time saw it competing against the near-fatally wounded Air NZ. It still had overhead TVs in poor condition at the back of the bus, and overall it seemed to have older seats etc. It was a bit disappointing given their focus on new cabin products at the time, but at the end of the day I got to where I needed to go.

Generally, Qantas are pretty good at matching up the product they have to the routes where it is the most competitive. So you see the older product usually goes on the routes with little competition. Of course, aircraft go tech and aircraft allocations change all the time so it's not perfect.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:42 am
by HM7
zululima wrote:
angusjt wrote:
OEB is surely the next QF 747 to go into retirement, it's amazing to think they've kept her around longer than they did with OJT (a newer and refurbished aircraft retired only yesterday).


Why? Because it's the oddball? Ever hear of hours and cycles? Fleet planning doesn't work like that. They aren't going to do a full C/D check to keep a "non-oddball" flying and retire a frame with useful life left. OEB has been integrated into QFs fleet for years, they have the spares, etc. already, so they will keep flying it. Don't be surprised if in fact the next 744 retired is actually an ER, while OEB and OJS/OJU stay.

I’ve heard the next to go is OEI. Apparently she hasnt had a D check in a while

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:27 am
by eamondzhang
vhtje wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
QF also leased a BA 744 at this time also VH-NLH (never leaves the hangar) - operated in a hybrid livery with BA config.


I remember that aircraft. According to the Qantas Source, it spent nearly two and half years with QF, from November 2000 to March 2003. Wouldn’t the oddball configuration and different hardware have caused confusion for passengers? Does anyone remember what configuration it had? Did it have cradle seats or the original New Club World Ying/Yang beds? (The current Next Generation Club World seats were not introduced until 2006)

It might be very confusing if a passenger was expecting a Qantas Mk1 Skybed and ended up getting a Ying/Yang Club World instead. How did QF market this, if at all?

Oddly QF’s and BA’s First cabins were pretty similar at the time, so I suppose no problems there. Did VH-NLH have World Traveller Plus? I don’t think QF had premium Economy before the A380 in 2008, so that would have been confusing as well.

Can't answer other questions but QF definitely had W class well before 2008, they were one of the pioneers in Premium Economy IIRC. One of the config they had around the time was 14F/66J/40W/187Y (for 744).

Michael

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:06 am
by Qantas59
BA introduced Premium Economy (World Traveller Plus) in November 2000. QF introduced Premium Economy on the A380 (F14 J72 W32 Y332) and 747 (F14 J66 W40 Y187) in October and November 2008 respectively.
Cheers.

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:34 am
by vhtje
EBT wrote:
I flew NLH in economy back in December 2002 on the AKL-LAX route, which at the time saw it competing against the near-fatally wounded Air NZ. It still had overhead TVs in poor condition at the back of the bus, and overall it seemed to have older seats etc. It was a bit disappointing given their focus on new cabin products at the time, but at the end of the day I got to where I needed to go.


I found this interior photo of VH-NLH on the web, taken during its tenure with QF. It looks like the seats are wearing QF’s then-currrent seat pattern. The lack of overhead air vents clearly indicate it’s a -436 ex-BA Boeing!

Image

Re: Why did QF purchase two 747-400s from MH and one from OZ

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:20 pm
by BA174
I’m sure it’s been mentioned before that VH(G-B)NLH was fully refurbished by BA at Cardiff before it returned to BA service. The other 744s had been done while it was away at QF.