MIflyer12
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:41 pm

sargester wrote:
tinpusher007 wrote:
sargester wrote:

"knock knock AA, got room on the couch in Terminal 8?"


Im aware of that but my point is that BA has already announced plans for T7 and to my knowledge has not announced any plans to move into T8 with AA.


Cuomo sees it a bit differently than how the airlines want it, he just wants a more simplified version of JFK... Oneworld under one roof should be how it is


I guess Cuomo's The Man, as PANYNJ is a joint state agency. More investment in the major NYC airports is welcome - and way *&^% overdue!
 
global2
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:10 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
BA/AA put in a T7 bid. B6 won. This is for both T6 and T7.
BA can move their 10 flights over tomorrow with minimal movement of planes to hardstands while not boarding


I'm curious to know what AA/BA's proposal was if anyone can provide a link to it.
As for BA moving over to T8, what about lounge space for all their premium customers. Would AA be willing to hand
over one of their Admiral's Clubs for that?
 
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fbgdavidson
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:25 pm

superjeff wrote:
is there a way to build an airside tunnel (maybe with moving walkways, like at United's facility at ORD) between T-7 and T-8?


I don't see why not, but it'd be an awful lot of engineering for a problem that is largely covered already. If you are looking at a way to handle oneworld connections more efficiently then almost all of them into T7 need to clear US immigration and customs upon arrival at JFK anyways. Once you're done with that it's not much of a hardship to take the AirTrain over to T8 as you have to reclear security anyways. In the opposite direction AA cover the JFK route with a few flights per night, so really the only ones losing out altogether are diehard must fly BA people connecting from AA and those going on Iberia.

I think if anything a shuttle bus to take passengers from T8 to T7 would serve the purpose and a hell of a lot cheaper and easier to set up. Similar to the one United use at EWR between the various Star Alliance airlines.

global2 wrote:
I'm curious to know what AA/BA's proposal was if anyone can provide a link to it.
As for BA moving over to T8, what about lounge space for all their premium customers. Would AA be willing to hand
over one of their Admiral's Clubs for that?


AA don't have anywhere near the amount of room that BA use for lounges at T7 currently. You may be aware BA have three lounges currently at JFK; a Concorde Room (for First passengers, Premiers and a subset of BA Golds), a First lounge (currently being renovated and for oneworld Emeralds) and a Galleries Club lounge (for all Sapphires and business class passengers). Within these lounges BA have a small spa and two dining rooms. I think even if BA took over AA's lounges just for themselves they wouldn't have nearly enough room.

Given JFK is BA's blue riband route they would almost certainly want to offer an equivalent experience to now at any new terminal. By building out T8 (as I mentioned up thread) they can work in their significant lounge space needed plus other landside and airside facilities such as the special First check-in areas etc.
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jrkmsp
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:44 pm

Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.
 
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Polot
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:50 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.

My guess is the plan is to move the T4 airlines to the expanded T1-3 and give all of T4 (with expanded A concourse) to DL and their partners (minus AF- but the two terminals will still apparently be connected). T2 knocked down to make room for new expanded T1.
 
 
LupineChemist
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:54 pm

I would say this pretty much confirms B6's TATL plans. Now I wonder if they'd ever consider widebodies.
 
dmorbust
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:55 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.


Which new renderings?
 
jrkmsp
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:09 pm

Polot wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.

My guess is the plan is to move the T4 airlines to the expanded T1-3 and give all of T4 (with expanded A concourse) to DL and their partners (minus AF- but the two terminals will still apparently be connected). T2 knocked down to make room for new expanded T1.

Yeah, I think it'll be something like that, but KL may want to be closer to corporate sibling AF, especially if the terminals are connected as they appear to be. So, something like DL-VS-AM in T4, AF-KL-KE in T1. Not bad for connections.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:17 pm

So AA is the lone terminal with no expansion and no connection to other terminals in this master plan?

Odd as it is easiest to expand.

Sad state of affairs for American at JFK
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:25 pm

Nothing in the renderings shows a built out T8 but I guess if there are negotiations with BA over where they go from T7 that could be to come.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
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cosyr
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:31 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
Polot wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.

My guess is the plan is to move the T4 airlines to the expanded T1-3 and give all of T4 (with expanded A concourse) to DL and their partners (minus AF- but the two terminals will still apparently be connected). T2 knocked down to make room for new expanded T1.

Yeah, I think it'll be something like that, but KL may want to be closer to corporate sibling AF, especially if the terminals are connected as they appear to be. So, something like DL-VS-AM in T4, AF-KL-KE in T1. Not bad for connections.

Those renderings of new Terminal 1 show some big taxiway movements over Van Wick. This construction could be fun.
 
tphuang
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:32 pm

wow, 22 wide body gates in the new South terminal. That looks really impressive. I guess most of the T4 tennants are going to move into there with this move. I'm quite excited for this.
 
sargester
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:33 pm

[quote="jfklganyc"]BA/AA put in a T7 bid. B6 won. This is for both T6 and T7.

Obviously, with NYS governor picking, he gives preference to B6 and DL because of their commitments to NYS.

AA has been shrinking their NYS footprint in recent years.

There is plenty of room in T8 even without a full build out.

AA is down to 80 or so flights for 36 gates.

Your lowballing, 95 flights on average and can peak at 100 per day from AA, BA needs at least 6-8 gates on their own, if they want to move into T8 they will need to expand the terminal all the Oneworld carriers to enter T8
 
hiflyeras
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:36 pm

Less than a year ago, BA announced a US$65mil remodel of T7. I don't think the paint is even dry yet!

https://www.britishairways.com/en-us/in ... fk-changes
 
lowfareair
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:51 pm

How much more buildout of T8 would there really need to be? AA's factsheet from when T8 opened lists 8 jumbo gates and 16 widebody gates. No idea what the size cutoff is between them, but it sounds like gates wouldn't really be much of an issue. Lounges could be solved by removing gate 7 and building there.

Even with all of Oneworld at T8, it feels like it would still only be at about half-capacity flight wise (probably a little more than half passenger-wise).

Source: http://c.hub.aa.com/documents/jfk_fact_sheet.pdf
 
global2
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:44 pm

"This historic investment to modernize JFK Airport and the surrounding transportation network will not only ease travel through this major hub, but will ensure JFK joins the ranks as one of the finest airports in the world, " Cuomo said on Thursday.

Sorry, no it won't if it means still no direct rail link to Manhattan. Sorry, a bump in Airtrain service to Jamaica just won't cut it! And instead he wants to widen the Van Wyck Expy.? From the 6sqft.com article: "The state's transportation department is hoping to invest $1.5 billion in highway rehab, specifically the Kew Gardens Interchange..." WHAT??? I've suffered countless hours stuck in this construction nightmare at Kew Gardens for the past what, 20 years???? And now they want to start that nightmare all over again?
If this governor really wanted to make JFK into a "world class" airport on par with LHR, CDG, ZRH, HKG, NRT, etc. he'd find a way to use the Rockaway Beach Branch right of way to connect the LIRR directly into the middle of the airport to finally connect it to the city. Just leave the Van Wyck alone already!
 
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Revelation
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:58 pm

dmorbust wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.


Which new renderings?

#21 has links to info such as https://ny.curbed.com/2018/10/4/1793702 ... renderings which says:

Now on to some more important details: the terminal anchoring the southern end of the JFK complex will be developed by the Terminal One Group, which is a consortium comprised of Lufthansa, Air France, Japan Airlines, and Korea Air Lines. This nearly 3 million-square-foot, $7 billion behemoth will replace the airport’s existing Terminals 1 and 2, and also occupy the site left vacant by the demolition of Terminal 3 in 2014.

The new terminal will have 23 international gates, of which 22 will be able to serve wider bodied jets like the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and the Airbus A380. In addition, there will be 24 security screening lanes, 116,000 square feet of airport lounges, 230,000 square feet of retail and dining options, and 55,000 square feet of interior green space, and a children’s play area. This terminal will be operated by Munich Airport International, and provide connections to Terminal 4, which was most recently expanded in 2013.

And:

At the northern end of the JFK complex, JetBlue will develop a 1.2 million-square-foot terminal, at a cost of $3 billion. The airline will demolish the existing Terminal 7 and utilize the space left vacant by the demolition of Terminal 6 in 2011, to create this new terminal.

JetBlue’s new terminal will have 12 international gates, which will all accommodate wide-body jets. There will be 74,000 square feet of retail, 30,000 square feet of airline lounges, and 15,000 square feet of recreation space. This terminal will also provide connections to JFK’s newest terminal, Terminal 5, which opened in 2008.

And:

Image

Very exciting stuff!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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GuruJanitor
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
And:

Image

Very exciting stuff!


My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:
 
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Revelation
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:17 pm

GuruJanitor wrote:
My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:

Right next to the unicorn jumping over the rainbow? :stirthepot:
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
smi0006
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:25 pm

lowfareair wrote:
How much more buildout of T8 would there really need to be? AA's factsheet from when T8 opened lists 8 jumbo gates and 16 widebody gates. No idea what the size cutoff is between them, but it sounds like gates wouldn't really be much of an issue. Lounges could be solved by removing gate 7 and building there.

Even with all of Oneworld at T8, it feels like it would still only be at about half-capacity flight wise (probably a little more than half passenger-wise).

Source: http://c.hub.aa.com/documents/jfk_fact_sheet.pdf


I believe QF have or are moving to T8 - any other Oneworld or other carriers operate there already with AA?
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:43 pm

Wonderful news. As busy peers like ATL, LAX and ORD have drastically improved in recent years the primary bottleneck in the U.S. aviation system has without question become NYC. In fact, seeing as how more than a few long haul flights operate severely behind schedule these days, I wouldn't be surprised if NYC airports are the worst bottleneck in the entire global aviation system. A lack of runways and congested airspace will still be a huge issue, but at least more functional and capable terminal facilities will reduce problems on the ground that are prevalent today. Interesting that the two primary "legacy" tenants and their close partners lost out to an LCC and a hodgepodge of foreign operators. Amazing to think that in 10 years New York and LA could offer some of the best airport experiences in the country!
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
GuruJanitor wrote:
My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:

Right next to the unicorn jumping over the rainbow? :stirthepot:

No, right next to all the Delta 747s on the super long Terminal 4 pier. :lol:

Here is the official release from the Governor: https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/govern ... ry-airport

And the renderings linked from that release, complete with B6 A380s and DL 747s: https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/gover ... erings.pdf

An interesting take away from the release which might explain why T8 is unchanged so far, and also explains where in the process these proposals (and they are proposals) are:

The plans for the two terminals announced today will now be submitted to the Port Authority's Board of Commissioners. Once lease terms are finalized, the leases will be subject to final Board approval. Additional discussions with multiple other airlines and terminal operators remain ongoing to further advance the goals of the Vision Plan.


V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
dmorbust
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
dmorbust wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.


Which new renderings?

#21 has links to info such as https://ny.curbed.com/2018/10/4/1793702 ... renderings which says:

Thank you!
 
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fbgdavidson
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:30 pm

smi0006 wrote:

I believe QF have or are moving to T8 - any other Oneworld or other carriers operate there already with AA?


CX, LA, QR (morning flight goes from T7), RJ, AY.
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
lostsound
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:51 pm

GuruJanitor wrote:
Revelation wrote:
And:

Image

Very exciting stuff!


My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:


Then maybe you'll also get a laugh at JetBlue's 787 in this rendering. :D

Image
 
beeweel15
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:09 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.


Finally they are getting rid of T2. This project should have been done when they was tearing down T3 Pan AM. I can hardly wait for construction to start and the completed building
 
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:50 pm

 
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Revelation
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:25 am

hiflyeras wrote:
Less than a year ago, BA announced a US$65mil remodel of T7. I don't think the paint is even dry yet!

https://www.britishairways.com/en-us/in ... fk-changes

And yet we have visual evidence that their landlord, PANYNJ, has well developed plans to re-purposing that space:

Image

Spending $65M to upgrade property on land you only have leased for another five years might not be the thing to do.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:44 am

Aside from infrastructure, e.g., roadway improvements, this plan only covers the re-build and expansion of Terminal 1 into the space of Terminals 2 and 3 and the rebuild and expansion of Terminal 7.

There is no mention how DL will absorb the loss of gates when T2 is demolished.

There is no mention of an extension of T4A.

There is no mention of the extension and completion (per original design) of T8.

If DL and AA have separate plans to address and fund their terminal expansions they should have been mentioned in the article as in addition to the $13B investment. Otherwise, it's a glaring hole in the "master plan."
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:51 am

How could anyone argue that the Van Wyck doesn’t need to be widened?

It was built as a fundamentally flawed design with four lanes at Kew Gardens going into three.

It is the single worst part of JFK With round the clock traffic
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:03 am

questions wrote:
Aside from infrastructure, e.g., roadway improvements, this plan only covers the re-build and expansion of Terminal 1 into the space of Terminals 2 and 3 and the rebuild and expansion of Terminal 7.

There is no mention how DL will absorb the loss of gates when T2 is demolished.

There is no mention of an extension of T4A.

There is no mention of the extension and completion (per original design) of T8.

If DL and AA have separate plans to address and fund their terminal expansions they should have been mentioned in the article as in addition to the $13B investment. Otherwise, it's a glaring hole in the "master plan."

The release from the Governor’s office addresses that:

VirginFlyer wrote:
Here is the official release from the Governor: https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/govern ... ry-airport

And the renderings linked from that release, complete with B6 A380s and DL 747s: https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/gover ... erings.pdf

An interesting take away from the release which might explain why T8 is unchanged so far, and also explains where in the process these proposals (and they are proposals) are:

The plans for the two terminals announced today will now be submitted to the Port Authority's Board of Commissioners. Once lease terms are finalized, the leases will be subject to final Board approval. Additional discussions with multiple other airlines and terminal operators remain ongoing to further advance the goals of the Vision Plan.


Revelation wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
Less than a year ago, BA announced a US$65mil remodel of T7. I don't think the paint is even dry yet!

https://www.britishairways.com/en-us/in ... fk-changes

And yet we have visual evidence that their landlord, PANYNJ, has well developed plans to re-purposing that space:

Image

Spending $65M to upgrade property on land you only have leased for another five years might not be the thing to do.

Per the above, this is a proposal being put forward by the Governor’s office to the Port Authority, not a plan being put forward by the Port Authority, although the end result is likely the same.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
tphuang
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:46 am

My guess on where everyone ends up?
Biggest question is probably AS, but let's do the easy stuff first.
BA/IB/AY to T8 - that's a given I think
All *A + non-DL JV ST members move to south terminal
AM, WS and VS stay in T4
Most none aligned move to south terminal
Where does QR end up? AA doesn't like QR. QR needs its own lounge space. I could see it ending up in south terminal.
EK, FI, HU to north terminal.

Now the question is where everyone else ends. DL won't have anymore gate space for non-JV, non-alliance partners for sure. AA will be maxed out at T8 with OW partners moving in. So it's down to the north and south terminal. My guess is the south terminal will be a lot more expensive to operate due to having big name international airlines needing to block wide body gates for long period of time. And will be squeezed for lounge space.

The narrow body international operators like Y4, 4O, BW, CM have to see where they can end up. B6 might say no to BW since they are a competitor on the lucrative Caribbean routes and force them to operate out of T1 to increase their cost. And same with Y4 and 4O since they are competitors on JFK-MEX/CUN. Maybe 4O can strike a partnership with B6 to operate out of north terminal. And if they get into JFK-PTY, CM will be a competitor too.

Now, AS will have the highest requirement here. We know DL + AA are off limit. They need preferential access to 2 gates at least for the whole day + space for their own lounge. That can't be cheap at South Terminal. So their best fit is at North Terminal. Here is where I think B6 can play hard ball and demand some kind of reciprocal access in West Coast. AS just got kicked out of T4/8 after the merger with VX and spent probably $15 to 20 million on their lounge in T7 for it to last a total of 4 years. I'm sure they'd like to have some certainty going forward.

There is also SY, but I'm not sure they will continue serving JFK in the future.
 
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:47 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
The release from the Governor’s office addresses that...


Thanks. I read the Governor’s office release and missed that.
 
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:08 am

tphuang wrote:

QR needs its own lounge space.

...south terminal... will be squeezed for lounge space.

AS... space for their own lounge.


I don’t think lounge space is as big an issue as gate space planning given the mix of North American/Caribbean flights and distinct TATL and South American flight banks. It is easier to build up for lounge space than out for gate space. Also, we may see more multi-airline, unaligned alliance lounge operations — e.g., when VA used the NZ operated Star Alliance lounge at LAX TBIT.

It will be interesting to see if AF gets out of its current ownership of T1 to align with DL in T4. Also where AZ ends up.
 
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:17 am

GuruJanitor wrote:
Revelation wrote:
And:

Image

Very exciting stuff!


My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:


This IS just a rendering... but the biggest takeaway should have been... that DL took over T5 and B6 moved into the new north terminal (space previously occupied byT6/7).
 
global2
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:23 am

jfklganyc wrote:
How could anyone argue that the Van Wyck doesn’t need to be widened?
It was built as a fundamentally flawed design with four lanes at Kew Gardens going into three.
It is the single worst part of JFK With round the clock traffic


And three lanes that funnel down to two merging on to the Grand Central, which is where most of the traffic is going.
Rather than spend this money to encourage more vehicles on the road, money should be spent to bring a one seat ride via rail like ever other major world capital's airport. A convenient rail connection to Manhattan could reduce the number of vehicles on the road. The fact that there is still no plan to include this means JFK can never be considered "world class", and any widening of the Van Wyck will be offset by the increasing numbers of passengers all heading to the airport in cars.
But this is no surprise coming from "Governor Musclecar" who hatched the asinine plan to build an Airtrain at LGA that heads AWAY from Manhattan.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:11 am

questions wrote:
GuruJanitor wrote:
Revelation wrote:
And:

Image

Very exciting stuff!


My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:


This IS just a rendering... but the biggest takeaway should have been... that DL took over T5 and B6 moved into the new north terminal (space previously occupied byT6/7).

Yes that is interesting isn’t it. The other renderings at https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/gover ... erings.pdf seem to show a mix of things. The first is a view centred of T4, showing Singapore and Virgin twins at the northern pier, and non-descript aircraft at the southern pier (some might be Korean Air?). At T5 there are a mix of Hawaiian, Aer Lingus and Delta, and at T6/7 JetBlue. T1 and T8 aircraft are non-descript. The second is a view centred on road access between T8 and T1. All the aircraft are non-descript. The third is a view centred on landside of T1. A mix of Korean Air, Air France, Japan Airlines and Lufthansa 747s on the gates. On the southern pier of T4, it is all Delta 747s. Renderings 4-9 don’t show aircraft, then 10 is a view of T5, showing all JetBlue (including a couple of A380s and quite a lot of widebody twins).

Something else which stands out from these images is how much the design of the new T5 enveloping the old T5 really eats into potential ramp space. It almost makes you wonder what it would be like if the Saarinen masterpiece could be moved to a central location in the terminal precinct, but given the hotel development and the way the new T5 has been built, the ship has well and truly sailed on that possibility. Speaking of historical terminals, I think it would be great if they were able to replicate or at least evoke the saucer from the WorldPort as part of the new T1’s eastern pier.

V/F
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sxf24
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:05 am

I think there’s a misconception that the airlines leading the development will get all of the new space. A condition of BA’s lease, and I’m sure the leases of other airlines, is that they have to be reacommodated. I would not be surprised to see BA and AS stay in the new north terminal.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1389
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:52 am

global2 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
How could anyone argue that the Van Wyck doesn’t need to be widened?
It was built as a fundamentally flawed design with four lanes at Kew Gardens going into three.
It is the single worst part of JFK With round the clock traffic


And three lanes that funnel down to two merging on to the Grand Central, which is where most of the traffic is going.
Rather than spend this money to encourage more vehicles on the road, money should be spent to bring a one seat ride via rail like ever other major world capital's airport. A convenient rail connection to Manhattan could reduce the number of vehicles on the road. The fact that there is still no plan to include this means JFK can never be considered "world class", and any widening of the Van Wyck will be offset by the increasing numbers of passengers all heading to the airport in cars.
But this is no surprise coming from "Governor Musclecar" who hatched the asinine plan to build an Airtrain at LGA that heads AWAY from Manhattan.

Couldn't agree more. Yes, shiny new terminals when you're AT JFK, but the getting/leaving there is still a bitch. By road or rail, it's a nightmare. Even by air, what does this do for a very needed new runway?
 
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tlecam
Posts: 1453
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:13 am

How is it a nightmare by rail?
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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Revelation
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:12 am

Bricktop wrote:
global2 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
How could anyone argue that the Van Wyck doesn’t need to be widened?
It was built as a fundamentally flawed design with four lanes at Kew Gardens going into three.
It is the single worst part of JFK With round the clock traffic

And three lanes that funnel down to two merging on to the Grand Central, which is where most of the traffic is going.
Rather than spend this money to encourage more vehicles on the road, money should be spent to bring a one seat ride via rail like ever other major world capital's airport. A convenient rail connection to Manhattan could reduce the number of vehicles on the road. The fact that there is still no plan to include this means JFK can never be considered "world class", and any widening of the Van Wyck will be offset by the increasing numbers of passengers all heading to the airport in cars.
But this is no surprise coming from "Governor Musclecar" who hatched the asinine plan to build an Airtrain at LGA that heads AWAY from Manhattan.

Couldn't agree more. Yes, shiny new terminals when you're AT JFK, but the getting/leaving there is still a bitch. By road or rail, it's a nightmare. Even by air, what does this do for a very needed new runway?

If you take the big picture view, reading https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/govern ... ry-airport you find the plan is for $13B to be spent, of which $12B is coming from "private funding" i.e. corporations, so the answer to your question is obvious: it's easy to find funding when you're building terminals that will capture lots of profit from airlines and merchants, it's hard to find funding for money-losing train, highway and runway projects.

If you could find a way for corporations to end up with a secure long term stream of profits from train, highway or runway projects they'd be all over those too, and the Cuomos of this world would suck up all the glory for being an effective public servants while in effect all they really did was enable a nice profitable revenue stream for some corporations.

Instead the Cuomos of this world know any money losing project will be a bare knuckles fist fight that is best avoided, especially if one of those projects probably involves filling in Jamaica Bay or evicting thousands of residents.

Overall, getting anything all done in the swamp of PANYNJ and regional politics is worthy of mention, and IMHO complaining about what is left undone at this point in time is a bit unseemly.
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jfklganyc
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:53 am

B6 wont use all the gates.

They become a Terminal Operator just like TOGA.

They they compete for tenants and make money with the ones they sign. Including
AS.
 
tphuang
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:12 pm

questions wrote:
tphuang wrote:

QR needs its own lounge space.

...south terminal... will be squeezed for lounge space.

AS... space for their own lounge.


I don’t think lounge space is as big an issue as gate space planning given the mix of North American/Caribbean flights and distinct TATL and South American flight banks. It is easier to build up for lounge space than out for gate space. Also, we may see more multi-airline, unaligned alliance lounge operations — e.g., when VA used the NZ operated Star Alliance lounge at LAX TBIT.

It will be interesting to see if AF gets out of its current ownership of T1 to align with DL in T4. Also where AZ ends up.


Depending on who you are. I do agree there will be unaligned lounge operations which Priority pass users will be able to access also. However, some airlines do require their own lounges. For example, part of the EK F/J experience is having a large dedicated check-in area, a really nice lounge and the ability to board directly from the lounge into the upper deck of A380 without having to deal will the mess of boarding gate area (I'm trying to not sound like an ass here). And since QR competes with EK, they'd need that too. I don't see them moving into T8.

If AS was willing to spend that much money to build a brand new lounge that will get torn down again 4 years later, I think they are going to build a new lounge wherever they move to.

If there is a good connector between south terminal and T4, I don't see why AF and AZ would move into T4. DL is going to want to have as much of T4 to itself as possible.

jfklganyc wrote:
B6 wont use all the gates.

They become a Terminal Operator just like TOGA.

They they compete for tenants and make money with the ones they sign. Including
AS.

of course they won't. But given that there are just 2 terminal operators that will have available space, they will have some negotiation power on who they bring in. Same with the T1 consortium, who will most likely have the nicest property at JFK when all is said and done. 22 widebody gates. That's going to look great.
 
Bricktop
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
If you take the big picture view, reading https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/govern ... ry-airport you find the plan is for $13B to be spent, of which $12B is coming from "private funding" i.e. corporations, so the answer to your question is obvious: it's easy to find funding when you're building terminals that will capture lots of profit from airlines and merchants, it's hard to find funding for money-losing train, highway and runway projects.

If you could find a way for corporations to end up with a secure long term stream of profits from train, highway or runway projects they'd be all over those too, and the Cuomos of this world would suck up all the glory for being an effective public servants while in effect all they really did was enable a nice profitable revenue stream for some corporations.

Instead the Cuomos of this world know any money losing project will be a bare knuckles fist fight that is best avoided, especially if one of those projects probably involves filling in Jamaica Bay or evicting thousands of residents.

Overall, getting anything all done in the swamp of PANYNJ and regional politics is worthy of mention, and IMHO complaining about what is left undone at this point in time is a bit unseemly.

Maybe unseemly, but we are talking about PANYNJ here. A shameless cash and graft machine without compare. I couldn't care less about the shiny new boxes at JFK: I care about spotting planes on their way to 4 and 13, and they need more than just terminals to make a world class airport. You need to be able to get to it and from it. Ask anyone who has to drive the Belt/Cross Island or the Van Wyck about what a fun time that is. Just what you need before or after your flight.
 
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Aisak
Posts: 881
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:03 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
Worth noting that the T1 group has been chosen to rebuild T1-3 in a single, larger terminal that will connect with T-4. I believe Delta and IAT also had a proposal to redevelop that space, but the LH/JAL/AF/KAL group won out. There's also a plan for the final extension of T-4A in the new renderings. I'll be interested to see where Delta's T2 gates wind up when all is said and done.


I've always thought TOGA's T1 was odd, since T1 now belongs to 4 airlines in 3 different alliances, so common use of facilities (check-in, tickecting, security lanes, lounges, boading areas...) is quite low. Not even all LH Group fits there.
but if T1 Is expandend I could see it becoming the place for all Star Alliance airlines at JFK, and the eastern side for non-DL Skyteam to ease connections onto T4. JL would be left being the odd one there, but I doubt they will want to move to AA's Terminal while they are part of TOGA.

DL T2 gates will be located/built west of T4. Be it a new T123 terminal or not, but just on the land previously used by T3.

smi0006 wrote:
I believe QF have or are moving to T8 - any other Oneworld or other carriers operate there already with AA?


While not always the most up-to-date info, this should help:
https://www.oneworld.com/airports-desti ... jfk-ny-usa

tphuang wrote:
My guess on where everyone ends up?
[...]
Where does QR end up? AA doesn't like QR. QR needs its own lounge space. I could see it ending up in south terminal.


Wait... what? Why do they need their own lounge? Granted they like the idea of premium ultra exclusive lounges like at LHR or CDG, but how many flights a day are they having at JFK? They are know just using partner's lounges at both T7 and T8 and seems fine.

If for some reason AA doesn't want to accept QR for any reason, I guess they can´t be forced... (even though they currently have an agreement) They could operate alongside JL. I guess TOGA (AF LH KE JL) won't be disolving anytime soon.

tphuang wrote:
AA will be maxed out at T8 with OW partners moving in. So it's down to the north and south terminal. My guess is the south terminal will be a lot more expensive to operate due to having big name international airlines needing to block wide body gates for long period of time. And will be squeezed for lounge space.

At some time, T8 would have to be built at its original planned size (almost double). but for sure, BA will be using its own terminal until the very last day instead of having to pay someone else , so likely be last to move into T8.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:11 pm

Terminal 1 came to be in the early 90s because conditions were so bad in the international arrivals building that four airlines took it upon themselves to build out a new terminal.

It was done before alliances were an issue.

It speaks loudly to the management and history of management of the port authority.

Also keep in mind terminal 4 is not run by Delta… It is run by Schipol USA and that is the home to all orphan airlines as needed and is the only 24/7 customs facility at the airport
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1566
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
global2 wrote:
And three lanes that funnel down to two merging on to the Grand Central, which is where most of the traffic is going.
Rather than spend this money to encourage more vehicles on the road, money should be spent to bring a one seat ride via rail like ever other major world capital's airport. A convenient rail connection to Manhattan could reduce the number of vehicles on the road. The fact that there is still no plan to include this means JFK can never be considered "world class", and any widening of the Van Wyck will be offset by the increasing numbers of passengers all heading to the airport in cars.
But this is no surprise coming from "Governor Musclecar" who hatched the asinine plan to build an Airtrain at LGA that heads AWAY from Manhattan.

Couldn't agree more. Yes, shiny new terminals when you're AT JFK, but the getting/leaving there is still a bitch. By road or rail, it's a nightmare. Even by air, what does this do for a very needed new runway?

If you take the big picture view, reading https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/govern ... ry-airport you find the plan is for $13B to be spent, of which $12B is coming from "private funding" i.e. corporations, so the answer to your question is obvious: it's easy to find funding when you're building terminals that will capture lots of profit from airlines and merchants, it's hard to find funding for money-losing train, highway and runway projects.

If you could find a way for corporations to end up with a secure long term stream of profits from train, highway or runway projects they'd be all over those too, and the Cuomos of this world would suck up all the glory for being an effective public servants while in effect all they really did was enable a nice profitable revenue stream for some corporations.

Instead the Cuomos of this world know any money losing project will be a bare knuckles fist fight that is best avoided, especially if one of those projects probably involves filling in Jamaica Bay or evicting thousands of residents.

Overall, getting anything all done in the swamp of PANYNJ and regional politics is worthy of mention, and IMHO complaining about what is left undone at this point in time is a bit unseemly.
In not unrelated news, it has been 25 years since the gas tax was increased.
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/05/65467014 ... ax-went-up
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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DL747400
Posts: 775
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:30 pm

tlecam wrote:
How is it a nightmare by rail?


Try it once and you'll see for yourself. I will never make that mistake again!
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All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5505
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:34 pm

I do it all the time.

LIRR Jamaica AirTrain.

Quick. Cheap. Frequent.

It is no Heathrow Express, but it is the best America can do thanks to union benefits, litigation and liability. It gets the job done

What is the nightmare?

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