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Revelation
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:06 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Maybe unseemly, but we are talking about PANYNJ here. A shameless cash and graft machine without compare. I couldn't care less about the shiny new boxes at JFK: I care about spotting planes on their way to 4 and 13, and they need more than just terminals to make a world class airport. You need to be able to get to it and from it. Ask anyone who has to drive the Belt/Cross Island or the Van Wyck about what a fun time that is. Just what you need before or after your flight.

Tell me about it.

I survived the bad old days of Abe Beame / Ft Apache / The Bronx where finding burned out hulks of cars up on blocks because they were stripped clean before being lit up was common on the way to JFK. You really felt like you were entering a war zone in a third world country. These days the physical security concerns aren't quite as high but the road network is largely the same.

After I moved out of JFK's service area, I moved to the Boston area and got to enjoy Logan in the era before the Big Dig. It felt very familiar, as if every airport was surrounded by a fucked up road network and piss-poor rail connectivity.

Unfortunately it will take a Big Dig scale project to provide the kind of access people here seem to be insisting on, but no one wants to pay for it. Note that the Big Dig fixed the road issue but did jack squat for rail, but that's on the taxpayers. They'll largely get behind road projects but are not so willing to funding rail projects.

jfklganyc wrote:
Terminal 1 came to be in the early 90s because conditions were so bad in the international arrivals building that four airlines took it upon themselves to build out a new terminal.

It was done before alliances were an issue.

It speaks loudly to the management and history of management of the port authority.

Also keep in mind terminal 4 is not run by Delta… It is run by Schipol USA and that is the home to all orphan airlines as needed and is the only 24/7 customs facility at the airport

Yep, IAB at JFK: been there, done that, got the life long mental scars to prove it.

jfklganyc wrote:
I do it all the time.

LIRR Jamaica AirTrain.

Quick. Cheap. Frequent.

It is no Heathrow Express, but it is the best America can do thanks to union benefits, litigation and liability. It gets the job done

What is the nightmare?

Spot on.

People here complain on and on about things that are pretty much unsolvable problems in the current situation, without pausing to enjoy the idea that $13B of improvements appear to be incoming. Given the bad old days of the IAB, this is huge progress.

Expecting this effort to also solve NYC's road and rail problems seems unrealistic to me.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
hiflyeras
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:33 pm

The more I read this thread the more I'm certain I will be dead and buried before it happens...as will Gov.Cuomo...and B6 probably will no longer exist as well.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:58 pm

questions wrote:
Aside from infrastructure, e.g., roadway improvements, this plan only covers the re-build and expansion of Terminal 1 into the space of Terminals 2 and 3 and the rebuild and expansion of Terminal 7.

There is no mention how DL will absorb the loss of gates when T2 is demolished.

There is no mention of an extension of T4A.


There is no mention of the extension and completion (per original design) of T8.

If DL and AA have separate plans to address and fund their terminal expansions they should have been mentioned in the article as in addition to the $13B investment. Otherwise, it's a glaring hole in the "master plan."

Thats because Cuomo is doing Cuomo things and shooting from the hip like he did with LGA. I question if he understand what a lease is, much less how they work.

Anyways, If we look at what happened at LGA, Cuomo announced a big grand plan then Delta later come back and said no, we are doing it our way and changed the plan of C/D up pretty drastically.

In the end I'd expect Delta to get most of the current T4 and expand T4A out like they have been planning to do all along. Most of the T4 airlines then move to T1 or T6/7 (or in some limited cases T8 with American). I imagine Delta/Schiphol and American will announce plans at a later date.
 
jrkmsp
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:31 pm

deltal1011man wrote:
questions wrote:
Aside from infrastructure, e.g., roadway improvements, this plan only covers the re-build and expansion of Terminal 1 into the space of Terminals 2 and 3 and the rebuild and expansion of Terminal 7.

There is no mention how DL will absorb the loss of gates when T2 is demolished.

There is no mention of an extension of T4A.


There is no mention of the extension and completion (per original design) of T8.

If DL and AA have separate plans to address and fund their terminal expansions they should have been mentioned in the article as in addition to the $13B investment. Otherwise, it's a glaring hole in the "master plan."

Thats because Cuomo is doing Cuomo things and shooting from the hip like he did with LGA. I question if he understand what a lease is, much less how they work.

Anyways, If we look at what happened at LGA, Cuomo announced a big grand plan then Delta later come back and said no, we are doing it our way and changed the plan of C/D up pretty drastically.

In the end I'd expect Delta to get most of the current T4 and expand T4A out like they have been planning to do all along. Most of the T4 airlines then move to T1 or T6/7 (or in some limited cases T8 with American). I imagine Delta/Schiphol and American will announce plans at a later date.


Exactly this. I'm sure Delta's T2 lease requires accommodation if T2 is redeveloped. But, the plan can be essentially a gate-for-gate trade with T4 and the new T1/2/3. Delta winds up with T4 almost to itself, plus some smaller partners, and it's connected to move of its partners in the new T1/2/3. It actually improves the operation there pretty substantially.
 
tphuang
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:26 pm

I can’t see delta loosing any gate here. Having the entire t4 + room for expansion seems like they will have what they need.

Also, airtrain works great today. I don’t know why people complain about it.
 
atlflyer
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:46 pm

I think AA and DL are both still negotiating and we can expect to see something from both of them.

Also, this press release isn’t just Cuomo’s Vision. He put that out there (with different renderings) In January 2017. These are actual proposals from the companies willing to fund these projects and selected.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:54 pm

Slightly off topic, but for the sake of reference in this thread given T8 seems to be the terminal which has yet to be integrated into this plan, here is what T8 was supposed to look like before it was truncated:

Image

It will be interesting to see how T8 is included into the plan eventually, and whether they build it out like originally designed, or go a different way. Perhaps it would be an opportunity to replicate the iconic stained glass window which was sadly demolished?

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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tlecam
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:36 pm

DL747400 wrote:
tlecam wrote:
How is it a nightmare by rail?


Try it once and you'll see for yourself. I will never make that mistake again!



I live in NYC and use it pretty frequently. AirTran access to 4 subway lines an LIRR (which is probably the fastest way to Manhattan) is pretty good. I regularly take the E and the A trains.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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tlecam
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:38 pm

T2 can not disappear fast enough. I cringe everytime I see my flight departing from that terminal. It has exactly one thing going for it; the walk from security to the gate takes 11 seconds, tops (without traffic). Unfortunately, there are usually millions of human speedbumps crammed into a space that was designed to hold about 100.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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tlecam
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:46 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I do it all the time.

LIRR Jamaica AirTrain.

Quick. Cheap. Frequent.

It is no Heathrow Express, but it is the best America can do thanks to union benefits, litigation and liability. It gets the job done

What is the nightmare?


I agree. And while the Heathrow Express is a nice 15 minute ride, it costs about 25 bucks each way and it drops you at Paddington, so the vast majority of people need to switch at least once to a Tube line, which is more or less the same thing as taking LIRR from Jamaica to Penn.

Now if anyone wants to complain about Penn, let me grab my gin. :-)
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
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william
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:21 pm

Image

I imagine the engineering work on T1 will have the section over former T3 and T2 built first then old T1 torn down for build out of new T1.
 
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william
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:37 pm

Looking at the present renderings, I guess all of the parking garages are gone to make room for a "central park"? Still trying to understand a two main ring roads.

I am glad JFK is receiving some much needed attention. My concern is that the operations side remains untouched. So pax will have nicer facilities to wait in but aircraft will still be qued up on 13L nose to tail when a rain storm happens.
 
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william
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:03 pm

william wrote:
Image

I imagine the engineering work on T1 will have the section over former T3 and T2 built first then old T1 torn down for build out of new T1.


Another view of T1 shifted closer to T4

Image

Compared to the original T1 location closer to Van Wyck Expressway.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/John+ ... 73.7781391

Looking at the AirTrain tracks the new T1 will be built closer in, over the tracks compared to behind the tracks as it is now.
Last edited by william on Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bradin
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:04 pm

Let's just call it what it is: lipstick on a pig.

It's a band-aid to a much larger wound and it's not addressing any root problems. I would argue it's not a good investment in dollars in anyway. $13 billion dollars for modernization? HA. It's foolish at best.

For some contrast:

LAX's TBIT cost $1.9 billion
LHR's Terminal 2 is projected to cost £2.3 billion

Brand new buildings and both are amazing experiences to be flying through.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:38 pm

GuruJanitor wrote:
My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:


It's good for a laugh, and definitely the wrong colors, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if B6 wants A380-capable gates in its new T6. That would let them move their partner EK, among others, under their roof, and EK would probably be as grateful for the increased feed as DL would be grateful to see the back of them at T4. B6 is definitely not increasing its fleet fast enough to be using all of those new gates itself, so the most logical explanation is that they want to step more fully into the role of landlord. It's a solid strategy.

As for getting to JFK, it was once so easy by rail that I would sometimes fly to or from there in the to late-00s and early -10s. Unfortunately, in between PANYNJ's silent cutting of AirTrain and the further decline-through-neglect of the NYC Subway, it's no longer an option I avail myself of, nor do I suggest it any more to my friends.

For more about the cuts to AirTrain, which Cuomo's announced service increase, if it is real, would only partially restore, see this post from 2016: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/08/22 ... -airtrain/
 
MSPNWA
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:07 am

I cringe at models that show new terminals creating a taxi issue between them. I thought we were in the 21st century. This is the definition of lipstick on a pig.
 
impilot
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:13 am

PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
GuruJanitor wrote:
My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:


It's good for a laugh, and definitely the wrong colors, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if B6 wants A380-capable gates in its new T6. That would let them move their partner EK, among others, under their roof, and EK would probably be as grateful for the increased feed as DL would be grateful to see the back of them at T4. B6 is definitely not increasing its fleet fast enough to be using all of those new gates itself, so the most logical explanation is that they want to step more fully into the role of landlord. It's a solid strategy.

As for getting to JFK, it was once so easy by rail that I would sometimes fly to or from there in the to late-00s and early -10s. Unfortunately, in between PANYNJ's silent cutting of AirTrain and the further decline-through-neglect of the NYC Subway, it's no longer an option I avail myself of, nor do I suggest it any more to my friends.

For more about the cuts to AirTrain, which Cuomo's announced service increase, if it is real, would only partially restore, see this post from 2016: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/08/22 ... -airtrain/


Gotta have somewhere to park all the planes from LGB once it shrinks more. And a few more this year, 13 next year, 20 more in 2020, another 20 in 2021...less any returned 190s.
 
Bradin
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:52 am

One more thing...

A complete rebuild of LGA is $6-$8 Billion dollars (depending on the source and how one does the math)
 
tphuang
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Re: B6 selected to rebuilt T6/T7 at JFK

Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:11 am

PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
GuruJanitor wrote:
My biggest takeaway from those renderings (when you click through to the article) are the two A380's in B6 colors at the New T6/T7 :stirthepot:


It's good for a laugh, and definitely the wrong colors, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if B6 wants A380-capable gates in its new T6. That would let them move their partner EK, among others, under their roof, and EK would probably be as grateful for the increased feed as DL would be grateful to see the back of them at T4. B6 is definitely not increasing its fleet fast enough to be using all of those new gates itself, so the most logical explanation is that they want to step more fully into the role of landlord. It's a solid strategy.

As for getting to JFK, it was once so easy by rail that I would sometimes fly to or from there in the to late-00s and early -10s. Unfortunately, in between PANYNJ's silent cutting of AirTrain and the further decline-through-neglect of the NYC Subway, it's no longer an option I avail myself of, nor do I suggest it any more to my friends.

For more about the cuts to AirTrain, which Cuomo's announced service increase, if it is real, would only partially restore, see this post from 2016: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/08/22 ... -airtrain/


I can't imagine EK not moving in there. Also this is a good opportunity for B6 to recruit new codeshare/interline partners since it would be pretty easy for them to feed any airline operating in north terminal.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:34 pm

william wrote:
Looking at the present renderings, I guess all of the parking garages are gone to make room for a "central park"? Still trying to understand a two main ring roads.

If you go to the video on the governor’s website - https://youtu.be/1QzA0iDP8dk - and go to the 16:28 mark, there is a graphic which doesn’t appear to have been published elsewhere showing the two road systems. Interestingly, it appears to show all access now via the Van Wyck Expressway, with the JFK Expressway no longer there.

Even more interestingly, it shows a built out T8, with an additional north-eastern pier coming from the main building, somewhat mirroring the shape of the new T7. Perhaps an indication of what lies ahead? There appears to be empty space between the two, but they could equally be linked. It also shows a built out T4. Interesting that this rendering hasn’t been published elsewhere from what I have seen - presumably because the work for T4 and T8 is still ongoing and so those parts may change.

Image

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
dmorbust
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:55 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
william wrote:
Looking at the present renderings, I guess all of the parking garages are gone to make room for a "central park"? Still trying to understand a two main ring roads.

If you go to the video on the governor’s website - https://youtu.be/1QzA0iDP8dk - and go to the 16:28 mark, there is a graphic which doesn’t appear to have been published elsewhere showing the two road systems. Interestingly, it appears to show all access now via the Van Wyck Expressway, with the JFK Expressway no longer there.

Even more interestingly, it shows a built out T8, with an additional north-eastern pier coming from the main building, somewhat mirroring the shape of the new T7. Perhaps an indication of what lies ahead? There appears to be empty space between the two, but they could equally be linked. It also shows a built out T4. Interesting that this rendering hasn’t been published elsewhere from what I have seen - presumably because the work for T4 and T8 is still ongoing and so those parts may change.

Image

V/F


Wow you have a very good eye, great find!
 
RollerRB211
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:39 pm

Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:14 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
william wrote:
Looking at the present renderings, I guess all of the parking garages are gone to make room for a "central park"? Still trying to understand a two main ring roads.

If you go to the video on the governor’s website - https://youtu.be/1QzA0iDP8dk - and go to the 16:28 mark, there is a graphic which doesn’t appear to have been published elsewhere showing the two road systems. Interestingly, it appears to show all access now via the Van Wyck Expressway, with the JFK Expressway no longer there.

Even more interestingly, it shows a built out T8, with an additional north-eastern pier coming from the main building, somewhat mirroring the shape of the new T7. Perhaps an indication of what lies ahead? There appears to be empty space between the two, but they could equally be linked. It also shows a built out T4. Interesting that this rendering hasn’t been published elsewhere from what I have seen - presumably because the work for T4 and T8 is still ongoing and so those parts may change.

Image

V/F


The build out of T8 is nonsensical and the screenshot also shows the removal of the JFK expressway so all cars coming from the east will have a longer trip to the Wyck which will likely be very crowded if they don't expand it. This plan is not very well thought out.
 
RichardWelling
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:45 am

Re: $10 Billion JFK Airport Renovation

Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:04 am

Where are we with revamp of the cargo side of the airport? There was a big annocuement a while back to knock down building 261 and 260 as indicated in the links below but I have yet to hear any further annoucements.

https://www.aircargonews.net/news/airport/single-view/news/wfs-to-lease-huge-new-cargo-centre-at-new-york-jfk-airport.html

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