raylee67
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Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:24 pm

Today (Sep 24) marks the day major works start for Western Sydney Airport (see https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/ ... y-underway)

It is expected to open in 2026 with one runway and capacity for 10 million pax annually. It's 50+km away from the city. Seems that the plan is not to use this to replace SYD.

SYD is much closer to the city. What are the incentives for airlines to move to this new airport? Is this going to be international airport or domestic only? Would it risk to become Australia's Mirabel?
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CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
Obzerva
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:07 pm

There are a number of key levers the operators could pull to make SWZ attractive to airlines.

No curfew would be the most obvious one for international ops - given SYD has a curfew.
Negotiating a lower price point on airport fees for airlines. SWZ is likely to have less premium traffic so any operator would be hoping for a lower operating cost.

The other significant one would be the government excluding SWZ from restricted bilateral agreements, or negotiating clauses so that it doesn’t count towards a SYD flight. You’d have a number of airlines in there with very little notice if they had that one.
 
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unrave
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Sydney's population centre has seen a gradual shift to the west over the last few decades and it only expected to accelerate in the coming years. When SWZ comes online it will be closer to a significant chunk of Sydney's population than SYD is. SYD has a night time curfew and has a cap on hourly ATM during the non curfew hours, which limits the future growth potential of SYD.
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:21 pm

Just because it is 50 km from the CBD does not mean that it is unneccessary. The Sydney CBD is at the eastern end of the Sydney Basin, and for many (possibly a majority) of Sydneysiders SWZ will be more convenient than SYD. SWZ will never replace SYD but there is definitely a place for it as SYD is basically at capacity with no scope for expansion.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:51 pm

Are QF and VA on board with the new airport?
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lightsaber
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:58 pm

Obzerva wrote:
There are a number of key levers the operators could pull to make SWZ attractive to airlines.

No curfew would be the most obvious one for international ops - given SYD has a curfew.
Negotiating a lower price point on airport fees for airlines. SWZ is likely to have less premium traffic so any operator would be hoping for a lower operating cost.

The other significant one would be the government excluding SWZ from restricted bilateral agreements, or negotiating clauses so that it doesn’t count towards a SYD flight. You’d have a number of airlines in there with very little notice if they had that one.

SWZ is going to be like ON THE, significantly lower fares. There is going to have to be incentive to fly from there other than trunk route domestic.

I agree no curfew is required to jump start this effort.

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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:14 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
Are QF and VA on board with the new airport?


Both have said they will fly there from the day it opens, and JQ/TT will no doubt end up with big operations at SWZ.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:44 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Are QF and VA on board with the new airport?


Both have said they will fly there from the day it opens, and JQ/TT will no doubt end up with big operations at SWZ.


Thanks, so curious, does SYD become basically the international airport and the new being domestic, or a mix of both at each?
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cpd
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:01 pm

Obzerva wrote:
There are a number of key levers the operators could pull to make SWZ attractive to airlines.

No curfew would be the most obvious one for international ops - given SYD has a curfew.
Negotiating a lower price point on airport fees for airlines. SWZ is likely to have less premium traffic so any operator would be hoping for a lower operating cost.

The other significant one would be the government excluding SWZ from restricted bilateral agreements, or negotiating clauses so that it doesn’t count towards a SYD flight. You’d have a number of airlines in there with very little notice if they had that one.


No curfew is enormously unfair to those of us who have lived in the Western Sydney area for a very long time - well before this airport was ever on the cards. I certainly don't want A380s and B777s roaring overhead at 2am in the morning or some other ungodly time. Yes the A380 might be quieter than older planes, but stand under one coming in to land and it is still pretty loud.

lightsaber wrote:
I agree no curfew is required to jump start this effort.
Lightsaber


I don't agree.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:06 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Are QF and VA on board with the new airport?


Both have said they will fly there from the day it opens, and JQ/TT will no doubt end up with big operations at SWZ.


Thanks, so curious, does SYD become basically the international airport and the new being domestic, or a mix of both at each?

A mix of both for each for sure, SYD will still be the main port domestically and internationally. SWZ is not gonna replace that.

What SWZ can achieve is a 24-7 ops airport, no curfew which should be great for freight business, plus all the night time flights to SEA that is not currently available (mostly impacting SQ though, MH is having an 0300 arrival into KUL because of the curfew so they might reconsider the move as well).

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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:20 am

cpd wrote:
Obzerva wrote:
There are a number of key levers the operators could pull to make SWZ attractive to airlines.

No curfew would be the most obvious one for international ops - given SYD has a curfew.
Negotiating a lower price point on airport fees for airlines. SWZ is likely to have less premium traffic so any operator would be hoping for a lower operating cost.

The other significant one would be the government excluding SWZ from restricted bilateral agreements, or negotiating clauses so that it doesn’t count towards a SYD flight. You’d have a number of airlines in there with very little notice if they had that one.


No curfew is enormously unfair to those of us who have lived in the Western Sydney area for a very long time - well before this airport was ever on the cards. I certainly don't want A380s and B777s roaring overhead at 2am in the morning or some other ungodly time. Yes the A380 might be quieter than older planes, but stand under one coming in to land and it is still pretty loud.

lightsaber wrote:
I agree no curfew is required to jump start this effort.
Lightsaber


I don't agree.

Feel free to disagree. Current plan is 24/7 operations. As I stated before, I believe that is required to attract initial service.

I'm excited your area is getting new service. Have you ever read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations? He noted in 1776 how emerging markets need to do more to attract talent. Now he was talking people, but the same thinking works for airlines.
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QF742
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:25 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Are QF and VA on board with the new airport?


Both have said they will fly there from the day it opens, and JQ/TT will no doubt end up with big operations at SWZ.


Where would QF/VA fly? I could only see MEL and BNE to begin with. I would imagine other destinations would be better served by JQ/TT.

What do you all think regarding domestic services and by which airline?
 
Obzerva
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:48 am

For those that would like a little history on SWZ and it's site selection, this may help:
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... 798/98BP20

Note it was listed as a possible location (amongst other sites) from 1969, and in 1986 it was decided upon as the location.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:44 am

Obzerva wrote:
For those that would like a little history on SWZ and it's site selection, this may help:
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... 798/98BP20

Note it was listed as a possible location (amongst other sites) from 1969, and in 1986 it was decided upon as the location.

WOW! Thanks for that. I knew it was a saga going back to the 1960s, I had no idea it went back to 1946!!!

Gemuser
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:24 am

SWZ will probably be like what Gatwick is to Heathrow, A solid airport with quite a few major airlines but always playing second fiddle to SYD.

Unlike Avalon which is very out of the way for most of Melbourne, SWZ is closer or similar distance to at least half of Sydney, so I expect solid numbers (10 million plus in first year). It will grab a sizable chunk of the LCCs from SYD (not all) and get QF, VA, SQ and NZ too.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:27 am

raylee67 wrote:
Today (Sep 24) marks the day major works start for Western Sydney Airport (see https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/ ... y-underway)

It is expected to open in 2026 with one runway and capacity for 10 million pax annually. It's 50+km away from the city. Seems that the plan is not to use this to replace SYD.

SYD is much closer to the city. What are the incentives for airlines to move to this new airport? Is this going to be international airport or domestic only? Would it risk to become Australia's Mirabel?


Not entirely sure whether the distance is as excessive as you make it sound. The new airport is about 44 km away from the old city center, which is pretty far east in present-day Sydney. Looking at the approximate geometric center of modern Sydney (Parramatta), the distance is less than 30 km. And it is only little more than 10 km away from the city limits.

By comparison, MUC, which is working extremely well, is about 30 km away from the downtown center, and almost 20 km from city limits.

It seems light rail or even a metro connection is planned for Western Sydney. Plus, they obviously have room to grow there. Right now, it certainly could be an attractive proposition for LCCs or as a second airport for international carriers. Give it a decade or two, and it might well become Sydney's Newark, assuming enough is invested in train connections or similar.
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cpd
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:40 am

PlaneInsomniac wrote:
Give it a decade or two, and it might well become Sydney's Newark, assuming enough is invested in train connections or similar.


Good lord no, a train connection? Trains are evil, better build more road tunnels. I'm a resident of Sydney - and fairly close to this new airport and we are all quite dubious of the politicians and their motives here.

I just think there are more things Sydney needs ahead of this - those of you living in Sydney will know just how impossible it is to get around the city.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:02 am

Pcoder wrote:
SWZ will probably be like what Gatwick is to Heathrow, A solid airport with quite a few major airlines but always playing second fiddle to SYD.

Unlike Avalon which is very out of the way for most of Melbourne, SWZ is closer or similar distance to at least half of Sydney, so I expect solid numbers (10 million plus in first year). It will grab a sizable chunk of the LCCs from SYD (not all) and get QF, VA, SQ and NZ too.


Can see an SWZ-AKL service from very early on from NZ/QF taking the A321/738s from SYD, while SYD would keep the widebody services.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:48 am

QF742 wrote:
Where would QF/VA fly? I could only see MEL and BNE to begin with. I would imagine other destinations would be better served by JQ/TT.

What do you all think regarding domestic services and by which airline?


I'd expect there will be a lot of business & government demand for QF & VA flights to the main capitals. A lot of large businesses have their HQ's or large operations in the Western Sydney area (a notable example is Woolworths), and some of the larger government departments also have a lot of staff out that way, Parramatta has a decent size CBD area. In a few years time there will only be more of a demand.


Avalon is in a different situation, the only real business demand would be from Geelong, and it is marketed as a low-cost airport. However with the massive growth in Melbourne, a lot more people are moving to the Western side of town, which is rapidly expanding. Again, in 5-10 years the situation in the Avalon area will be much different from the semi-rural situation as at present.
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:32 am

QF742 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
Are QF and VA on board with the new airport?


Both have said they will fly there from the day it opens, and JQ/TT will no doubt end up with big operations at SWZ.


Where would QF/VA fly? I could only see MEL and BNE to begin with. I would imagine other destinations would be better served by JQ/TT.

What do you all think regarding domestic services and by which airline?


Probably MEL and BNE to start with, definitely potential for ADL and PER down the track. AKL as well.

MEL and BNE will be multiple daily from the day they launch, for other routes assume that any route with more than, say, 4 daily frequencies is fair game to end up at SWZ. The market it will tap into is basically as large as SYD, and growing at a much faster rate.

SYD will always serve the inbound demand better than SWZ, and the reality is that Sydney CBD and North Sydney are still the premier business centres, but the continued growth of Parramatta and Western Sydney more generally means that SWZ isn't going to be just LCC central. Definitely more LGW or EWR than STN or CWL.
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:07 am

The new western Sydney airport will probably start with LCC airlines since the per passenger costs would be lower. It would be logical for Jetstar to move its operations to the new airport so Qantas could expand the full service airline at Kingsford Smith. Asia airlines with large Aussie operations would probably start flights SWZ to complement their SYD ops and expand them if it works out. The US3 will probably stay at SYD since they have limited flights to Australia.
 
QF742
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:29 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
QF742 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

Both have said they will fly there from the day it opens, and JQ/TT will no doubt end up with big operations at SWZ.


Where would QF/VA fly? I could only see MEL and BNE to begin with. I would imagine other destinations would be better served by JQ/TT.

What do you all think regarding domestic services and by which airline?


Probably MEL and BNE to start with, definitely potential for ADL and PER down the track. AKL as well.

MEL and BNE will be multiple daily from the day they launch, for other routes assume that any route with more than, say, 4 daily frequencies is fair game to end up at SWZ. The market it will tap into is basically as large as SYD, and growing at a much faster rate.

SYD will always serve the inbound demand better than SWZ, and the reality is that Sydney CBD and North Sydney are still the premier business centres, but the continued growth of Parramatta and Western Sydney more generally means that SWZ isn't going to be just LCC central. Definitely more LGW or EWR than STN or CWL.


Yes I agree. I see QF on BNE and SYD, with JQ on OOL/MCY/CNS/HBA/ADL/PER and maybe AKL and DPS.

I could also see NZ having a daily flight to AKL and maybe Scoot or Air Asia offering flights to SIN/KUL. As mentioned in a post above, I could see QF being keen on moving quite a few JQ services over to give QF more room to expand at SYD.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:41 am

cpd wrote:
Good lord no, a train connection? Trains are evil, better build more road tunnels.


Why are trains evil?

Trains are efficient and incredibly good at moving a lot of people quickly.

Almost every major city in the world has train service to its airports, be it in progress of being built or already built. SYD’s biggest problem is that the trains are part of the regular Metro system and not dedicated express services. It’s slow to get anywhere. SWZ should get an dedicated right of way express service to the CBD via maybe Cabramatta to allow connections to a lot of other modes of transport.

The more lanes you build, the more people drive, the more traffic you get, the more pollution you get, and so on.
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moa999
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:55 am

SWZ won't get dedicated services from the CBD. The whole point of it is to serve the West not the City.

There is a new Metro West route that I expect to be announced in the next few months that will provide a quicker City-Parramatta and onto Badgerys but it still won't be express.


BTW has the oft mentioned SWZ code actually been reserved, particularly when Beijing Daxing which opens in under 12 mths doesn't have an official code.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:58 am

Has 24-7 ops and no curfew actually been confirmed? I thought it still up for negotiation.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:01 pm

Does seem like a missed opportunity not to construct a fast rail link at the same time.
Still it will be up and running long before LHR gets another runway. :stirthepot:
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:02 pm

cpd wrote:
PlaneInsomniac wrote:
Give it a decade or two, and it might well become Sydney's Newark, assuming enough is invested in train connections or similar.


Good lord no, a train connection? Trains are evil, better build more road tunnels. I'm a resident of Sydney - and fairly close to this new airport and we are all quite dubious of the politicians and their motives here.

I just think there are more things Sydney needs ahead of this - those of you living in Sydney will know just how impossible it is to get around the city.


As tyou say its difficult to to get around the city... so surely by building SWZ and catering for the Western Suburbs this would mean less traffic on the roads going to and from SYD? So it is a good thing?!
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:01 pm

SWZ will likely be majority LCC traffic for the short to medium term, as the cost of duplicating ops between 2 airports may not be ideal for some carriers.

QF/VA will likely focus on MEL/BNE to start with, leveraging off those bases, whilst moving nearly all JQ/TT ops from SYD to SWZ helps free up capacity for mainline services.

Internationally, NZ will likely fly there, but I can see EK flying there, as they have shown an appetite to split ops in some markets (NYC, London). The lack of a curfew may well see them look to either move a flight out there to better suit their network needs.

If SWZ gains regional status (as AVV has), it would be counted seperately from SYD in any bi-lateral agreement restrictions. An example of how this could be benificial is for QR’s current situation, where this would open up opportunities for them if they want to explore new avenues for growth, or to realign their offering (ie. removing the CBR tag to gain to still gain access to the added rights)

Added to that, D7, 5J and TR are a few of the airlines that SWZ might be an attractive option, which would see them move across from SYD.

We will wait and see just how the risk/reward proposition plays out.
Last edited by IndianicWorld on Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:05 pm

DexSwart wrote:
cpd wrote:
Good lord no, a train connection? Trains are evil, better build more road tunnels.


Why are trains evil?

Trains are efficient and incredibly good at moving a lot of people quickly.

Almost every major city in the world has train service to its airports, be it in progress of being built or already built. SYD’s biggest problem is that the trains are part of the regular Metro system and not dedicated express services. It’s slow to get anywhere. SWZ should get an dedicated right of way express service to the CBD via maybe Cabramatta to allow connections to a lot of other modes of transport.

The more lanes you build, the more people drive, the more traffic you get, the more pollution you get, and so on.


There will be a train connection from day one, but the current plan is for a cross country line between St Marys and Leppington as part of the existing system. There will certainly be no express CBD service.

I can see large JQ and TT ops out at SWZ, with smaller operations for QF/VA. D7 would likely be a candidate with its flights to KUL, given they recently moved from MEL to AVV. HX and QR would also be options given their desire for flights to SYD that aren't allowed under current bilaterals. It is my understanding that SWZ will be outside of the SYD/MEL/BNE/PER restrictions for airlines
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:40 pm

The current Sydney (Kingsford Smith) is located extremely inconvenient for cargo operations. Cargo mostly comes from out of town and has to cross the whole town to get to the airport. Western Sydney will be on the edge of town, so you can get the cargo there without having to cross the entire city. Therefor I can see a role for Western Sydney as a cargo airport. This is actually good for the city as fewer trucks have to pass through it.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:29 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
The current Sydney (Kingsford Smith) is located extremely inconvenient for cargo operations. Cargo mostly comes from out of town and has to cross the whole town to get to the airport. Western Sydney will be on the edge of town, so you can get the cargo there without having to cross the entire city. Therefor I can see a role for Western Sydney as a cargo airport. This is actually good for the city as fewer trucks have to pass through it.

Is there freight rail too? I know, less used for express, but in the USA UPS does an outstanding job of multiple mode.

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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:16 pm

moa999 wrote:
BTW has the oft mentioned SWZ code actually been reserved, particularly when Beijing Daxing which opens in under 12 mths doesn't have an official code.


Yes, it’s official with IATA.
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:51 pm

So what do we reckon, will Jetstar vacate T2? Obviously, a fair amount of capacity will be taken and moved to SWZ. What will happen to the gate slots left open by JQ? More routes and aircraft ordered to make full use of the vacant gate slots with Jetstar still occupying the gates, will QF leave them to VA or will QF take over them and see some schedule transitions or some other alternative?
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:03 pm

DexSwart wrote:
cpd wrote:
Good lord no, a train connection? Trains are evil, better build more road tunnels.


Why are trains evil?

Trains are efficient and incredibly good at moving a lot of people quickly.

Almost every major city in the world has train service to its airports, be it in progress of being built or already built. SYD’s biggest problem is that the trains are part of the regular Metro system and not dedicated express services. It’s slow to get anywhere. SWZ should get an dedicated right of way express service to the CBD via maybe Cabramatta to allow connections to a lot of other modes of transport.

The more lanes you build, the more people drive, the more traffic you get, the more pollution you get, and so on.


Because we are beholden to the road transport lobbies. Hence why we have so many massive road projects that don't solve the problems they claim to.

But billions are spent on them. The existing airport could have freight rail traffic - there is a line running close to the airport (almost across the road).

The new airport as far as I'm aware may only have a light rail connection to it / metro style rail. Preferably without drivers or as few staff as possible.

There is a state election coming soon so even that could possibly change, maybe for the better.
 
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Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:11 pm

cpd wrote:
DexSwart wrote:
cpd wrote:
Good lord no, a train connection? Trains are evil, better build more road tunnels.


Why are trains evil?

Trains are efficient and incredibly good at moving a lot of people quickly.

Almost every major city in the world has train service to its airports, be it in progress of being built or already built. SYD’s biggest problem is that the trains are part of the regular Metro system and not dedicated express services. It’s slow to get anywhere. SWZ should get an dedicated right of way express service to the CBD via maybe Cabramatta to allow connections to a lot of other modes of transport.

The more lanes you build, the more people drive, the more traffic you get, the more pollution you get, and so on.


Because we are beholden to the road transport lobbies. Hence why we have so many massive road projects that don't solve the problems they claim to.

But billions are spent on them. The existing airport could have freight rail traffic - there is a line running close to the airport (almost across the road).

The new airport as far as I'm aware may only have a light rail connection to it / metro style rail. Preferably without drivers or as few staff as possible.

There is a state election coming soon so even that could possibly change, maybe for the better.


How do you mean light rail? The metro is heavy rail. It has a higher capacity than the current double deck trains.
 
Gemuser
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:28 am

From N91, reply 35:
How do you mean light rail? The metro is heavy rail. It has a higher capacity than the current double deck trains.

Yes, but only about 25% - 45% as many seats [for some "reason" the NSW government has not released the exact numbers]. They are "metro" trains which means they are designed for high volume, short distance services, which effectively means most passengers stand. That's fine for short distances, but out to SWZ? You have gotta be kidding! [BTW They have got to kidding to Kellyville too]

Gemuser
 
moa999
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:16 am

Those with the longest journeys will get seats. Once again SWZ is not designed for those living in the East it's for those in the West who are much closer.

Also if you've ever seen people with luggage boarding at The current Intl and Dom stations you'd realise how inappropriate Double deck trains are for the airport.
Even worse in the peak where the trains are often full by the time they arrive.

That said it appears at least one of the trains into SWZ will be an extension of the current Double deck line.

And with a substantial coat advantage of purchasing off the shelf trains and quicker loading due to three doors and no stairs, I wouldn't be surprised to see more lines converted back to single deck in the future.
 
cpd
Posts: 5992
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:28 am

moa999 wrote:
Those with the longest journeys will get seats. Once again SWZ is not designed for those living in the East it's for those in the West who are much closer.

Also if you've ever seen people with luggage boarding at The current Intl and Dom stations you'd realise how inappropriate Double deck trains are for the airport.
Even worse in the peak where the trains are often full by the time they arrive.


That said it appears at least one of the trains into SWZ will be an extension of the current Double deck line.

And with a substantial coat advantage of purchasing off the shelf trains and quicker loading due to three doors and no stairs, I wouldn't be surprised to see more lines converted back to single deck in the future.


Yes, how dare those outer-Sydney residents take up space on those precision airport line trains. If that sounds like a bit of a scolding, it is. In Sydney - it's impossible to get about using roads at peak hour, case in point, my house to my old office would take 1.5 to 2 hours in peak hour on the road. In the train, just about 1 hour before the time table change, 1.25 hours after the timetable change.

So residents use the trains, which they are encouraged to do by state government. And then people complain 'are often full by the time they arrive'.

moa999 wrote:
And with a substantial coat advantage of purchasing off the shelf trains and quicker loading due to three doors and no stairs, I wouldn't be surprised to see more lines converted back to single deck in the future.


To that directly, single deck trains with less seats are absolutely not an option for people who have to travel 1 hour on the train. You can't expect them to stand for one hour or more. I know people who commute on these "suburban" trains for 1.5 hours one way, then 1.5 hours in the evening. Why should they have to stand for a journey that long?

What might have been more appropriate for airports is a rapid and dedicated line that is separate from the existing ones, except for the final station. Something like Transrapid, or a bit slower...
 
EBT
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:04 am

Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:44 am

Interesting that the Tourism and Transport Forum, airlines and the airport itself have been campaigning to relax the operating restrictions at Kingsford-Smith. The way the 80 movements per hour cap is enforced is daft, with it effectively broken up into 15 minute blocks that cannot see movements move into the next block. There is no flexibility to allow carriers to catch up if there is a disrupt at the airport - as there often are during summer storms. Some reform to the curfew would be great to recognise the low noise of modern jets and use of RNP ops to reduce noise impacts. Problem is, it would be political suicide for the government to do that, so the issue gets kicked down the road.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4988
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:25 am

moa999 wrote:
Those with the longest journeys will get seats. Once again SWZ is not designed for those living in the East it's for those in the West who are much closer.
Also if you've ever seen people with luggage boarding at The current Intl and Dom stations you'd realise how inappropriate Double deck trains are for the airport.
Even worse in the peak where the trains are often full by the time they arrive.
That said it appears at least one of the trains into SWZ will be an extension of the current Double deck line.
And with a substantial coat advantage of purchasing off the shelf trains and quicker loading due to three doors and no stairs, I wouldn't be surprised to see more lines converted back to single deck in the future.

Who says it;s not designed for those living in the east? There has been NO definite statement as to what role each airport will play, It was originally intended that ALL international services would move there [except trans Tasman]. With the lack of policy clarity we are left with guesses. One popular one is LCCs, if that happens that blows your "not designed for those in the east" argument out of the water. Until it is clear what the roles are proper surface access planning is impossible.
I am not saying Sydney does not need a Metro type train, it desperately does BUT with limited seating services out to about the A3 or the old RR5 are about the limit IMHO commuters will accept, maybe! It's the old horse for courses argument, which nearly always wins in engineering matters.
I won't address your other incorrect statements about Sydney trains so as to not take the thread off topic.

Gemuser
 
moa999
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:13 am

Think it's been pretty clear from recent statements from airlines and government and draft plans that moving all International services is NOT the plan.

Rather it will be a gradual expansion over many decades.

Stage 1 is a single 3700m runway and fairly modest terminal building.
https://v2.communityanalytics.com.au/dird/wsa#
 
N91
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Western Sydney Airport - Construction started, what's the plan?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:25 am

Gemuser wrote:
From N91, reply 35:
How do you mean light rail? The metro is heavy rail. It has a higher capacity than the current double deck trains.

Yes, but only about 25% - 45% as many seats [for some "reason" the NSW government has not released the exact numbers]. They are "metro" trains which means they are designed for high volume, short distance services, which effectively means most passengers stand. That's fine for short distances, but out to SWZ? You have gotta be kidding! [BTW They have got to kidding to Kellyville too]

Gemuser


We’ll wait and see what the final number is. If it is 45% but the trains are twice as frequent then there will be close to the same amount of seats and whole lot more standing room.

As a hills resident I’m looking forward to the metro. I lived in Tokyo for a year though so maybe I’m biased. I had to catch 2 metros, about 25 mins each plus a bus from my dorm to uni. I didn’t mind the fact that I had to stand on the trains. Maybe when I’m older I won’t be as keen though haha

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