AirFiero
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:02 pm

iflykpdx wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Thanks for the in depth information. Does SJC use assigned gates, flex gates, or a combination?


We have preferential and common use gates. FIS gates 15-18 are all common use. Gates 1 and 3 are also currently common use but gate 1 will become preferential on 11/1. Ground boarding gate 7a is also common use.


I had an idea. Has any thought been given to moving the cargo ramp at the northwest corner of the airport to the northeast (the area closest to 87 and 880) or the southwest corner next to Signature FBO? This could clear the way for remote parking for RON or even an extension of terminal A. The other idea is a satellite terminal where the cargo ramp is now, with some kind of connector to terminal A. It could even be a commuter-style terminal for regional type jets and turboprops.
 
iflykpdx
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:14 pm

AirFiero wrote:
I had an idea. Has any thought been given to moving the cargo ramp at the northwest corner of the airport to the northeast (the area closest to 87 and 880) or the southwest corner next to Signature FBO? This could clear the way for remote parking for RON or even an extension of terminal A. The other idea is a satellite terminal where the cargo ramp is now, with some kind of connector to terminal A. It could even be a commuter-style terminal for regional type jets and turboprops.


Currently the plan is to build a new ARFF facility at the old SJSU vacant lot on Coleman Ave. south of the GA hangars to free up space for Terminal B expansion. The PD hangar and belly freight facility just north of ARFF Station 20 will also end up relocating somewhere. The north cargo ramp isn't going anywhere as far as I know, but once the airport has transitioned from using CNG-powered shuttle buses to all-electric ones, the CNG station may end up being removed to expand the ramp around Gates 1 and 2 to allow for putting larger aircraft there, but that is years away. Signature is in the early stages of planning for a new hangar supposedly to house an A350 where the old public parking lot is (what remains of it) to the north of their northernmost hangar. The results of the airfield RIM (runway incursion management) study also seem to indicate there may be a major reconstruction of the west side taxiways which will likely finally get rid of taxiway W1 (former runway 11/29) but that's still not finalized. I am unaware of any discussion of a satellite terminal or extension of Terminal A. We have been working to get larger ramps to allow for larger aircraft to ground board up at north cargo. Ground boarding is currently limited to aircraft that can be loaded with short ramps, precluding their use by anything larger than CRJ-900s.
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KLMatSJC
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:48 pm

26point2 wrote:
mandargb wrote:
Secondly :I think AA used to run SJC-NRT on DC-10. Are they going to be back and why now ?
Same with AA 777 on SJC-CDG (Gone for long time now.)


I believe the AA long haul service in the 90s used MD-11. And it was TPE, not NRT. Memory is a bit foggy but wasn’t this before SJC runway was lengthened which occasionally required a fuel stop enroute to TPE? Somsome will remembe more details.


They never had a fuel stop on the TPE route. They nevere really had one for NRT either except for a few days in the early times of the flight.
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AirFiero
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:54 pm

iflykpdx wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
I had an idea. Has any thought been given to moving the cargo ramp at the northwest corner of the airport to the northeast (the area closest to 87 and 880) or the southwest corner next to Signature FBO? This could clear the way for remote parking for RON or even an extension of terminal A. The other idea is a satellite terminal where the cargo ramp is now, with some kind of connector to terminal A. It could even be a commuter-style terminal for regional type jets and turboprops.


Currently the plan is to build a new ARFF facility at the old SJSU vacant lot on Coleman Ave. south of the GA hangars to free up space for Terminal B expansion. The PD hangar and belly freight facility just north of ARFF Station 20 will also end up relocating somewhere. The north cargo ramp isn't going anywhere as far as I know, but once the airport has transitioned from using CNG-powered shuttle buses to all-electric ones, the CNG station may end up being removed to expand the ramp around Gates 1 and 2 to allow for putting larger aircraft there, but that is years away. Signature is in the early stages of planning for a new hangar supposedly to house an A350 where the old public parking lot is (what remains of it) to the north of their northernmost hangar. The results of the airfield RIM (runway incursion management) study also seem to indicate there may be a major reconstruction of the west side taxiways which will likely finally get rid of taxiway W1 (former runway 11/29) but that's still not finalized. I am unaware of any discussion of a satellite terminal or extension of Terminal A. We have been working to get larger ramps to allow for larger aircraft to ground board up at north cargo. Ground boarding is currently limited to aircraft that can be loaded with short ramps, precluding their use by anything larger than CRJ-900s.


Ground boarding of passengers or loading of freight?
 
910A
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:17 am

26point2 wrote:
mandargb wrote:
Secondly :I think AA used to run SJC-NRT on DC-10. Are they going to be back and why now ?
Same with AA 777 on SJC-CDG (Gone for long time now.)


I believe the AA long haul service in the 90s used MD-11. And it was TPE, not NRT. Memory is a bit foggy but wasn’t this before SJC runway was lengthened which occasionally required a fuel stop enroute to TPE? Somsome will remembe more details.


The CDG service was operated with a 763 not a 777.

The NRT service had to stop in OAK, during the time period that the runway was being lengthen to 11,000 ft.

KLMatSJC wrote:
They nevere really had one for NRT either except for a few days in the early times of the flight.

Not knowing how you define a few days, but it was a least a month while construction was going on. That was a big joke at the time, and OAK made fun of SJC that their flight had to stop in OAK for fuel. Early 1980's as I recalled.
 
iflykpdx
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:23 am

AirFiero wrote:
Ground boarding of passengers or loading of freight?


Passengers.
Airport Management - UND
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:06 am

iflykpdx wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Ground boarding of passengers or loading of freight?


Passengers.


What is the purpose? Charters? Overflow parking and loading/unloading?
 
iflykpdx
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:48 am

AirFiero wrote:
What is the purpose? Charters? Overflow parking and loading/unloading?


The gate is used at times when gate space at jetbridge gates is maxed out. UA is the only airline that really has used it for their CRJ-700 flights to DEN but any airline that wants to could. It's possible California Pacific could, too, if its flights end up scheduled when the gates are full. Passengers are bussed over to the remote spots at the north cargo ramp on one or more blue shuttles. Usually to the closest spots to the terminal.
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Wingtips56
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:06 am

AA started SJC-NRT service with the DC-10-30, because the MD-11 EIS was late (plus AA declined initial delivery because of performance issues). Due to the length of the runway, the DC-10 could not go non-stop, so it bounced at OAK for the trans-Pac fuel. It was non-stop NRT-SJC. Eventually the MD-11 was introduced and was capable of doing the SJC-NRT non-stop. The aircraft routing was DFW-SJC-NRT and return. (I happened to be on the inaugural DFW-SJC leg, with the flight having originated at TUL, debuting out of the maintenance base.)

SJC-CDG was on the 763. I don't remember if the SJC-TPE started on the MD-11 too, or if not until the 777 was introduced. SJC-TPE ended immediately with 9/11. (As did ORD-ARN and I think at least one other poor-performing route.)

The SJC-NRT route continued on after that, until the SJC hub was dismantled.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

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Chasensfo
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:30 am

910A wrote:
26point2 wrote:
mandargb wrote:
Secondly :I think AA used to run SJC-NRT on DC-10. Are they going to be back and why now ?
Same with AA 777 on SJC-CDG (Gone for long time now.)


I believe the AA long haul service in the 90s used MD-11. And it was TPE, not NRT. Memory is a bit foggy but wasn’t this before SJC runway was lengthened which occasionally required a fuel stop enroute to TPE? Somsome will remembe more details.


The CDG service was operated with a 763 not a 777.

The NRT service had to stop in OAK, during the time period that the runway was being lengthen to 11,000 ft.

KLMatSJC wrote:
They nevere really had one for NRT either except for a few days in the early times of the flight.

Not knowing how you define a few days, but it was a least a month while construction was going on. That was a big joke at the time, and OAK made fun of SJC that their flight had to stop in OAK for fuel. Early 1980's as I recalled.

A mutual contact between KLM and I who was very much involved with that NRT-SJC flight confirms it only happened 2-3 times, but rumor spread quickly that it was routine.
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:38 am

iflykpdx wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
What is the purpose? Charters? Overflow parking and loading/unloading?


The gate is used at times when gate space at jetbridge gates is maxed out. UA is the only airline that really has used it for their CRJ-700 flights to DEN but any airline that wants to could. It's possible California Pacific could, too, if its flights end up scheduled when the gates are full. Passengers are bussed over to the remote spots at the north cargo ramp on one or more blue shuttles. Usually to the closest spots to the terminal.


Interesting stuff. Thanks for the info.
 
MRYapproach
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:58 am

intotheair wrote:
simpv wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Could KMRY, Monterey Regional Airport, be included in this discussion or is it too far away from the Bay Area?


I'd like to make this forum friendly and open, so sure. Monterey is close enough :).


I started a Central Coast thread a while ago for MRY, SBP, SMX, and SBA. There was a little bit of a conversation for a while before it fizzled out. I personally would consider Santa Cruz and Monterey separate from the Bay Area, but then again, you wouldn't believe how many people now commute up to the Bay.


From my handle, you can tell that I'm located in the MRY area. That said, it's been years since I flew in/out of MRY. It costs more, but mostly I've spent too many hours stuck in a foggy airport thinking about how I could have driven to SJC or SFO in less time. At least the parking is "free" in MRY.

Last week I flew to RNO roundtrip from SJC for the day for <$250. Good luck doing that from MRY.

On the flip side, I fly to Asia 3x every year and SJC doesn't even enter the equation. Maybe if I live in Mountain View, SJC would be worth a hassle. But I fly to TPE on BR, and all the good flights leave after midnight from SFO. At that time, traffic doesn't matter, plus BR runs two 777s at 1 AM most every night. Lounges factor more into the equation at that point than 20 minutes extra driving. But even that is besides the point: SFO is global hub with 3-5 SFO-TPE flights every day. Why should SJC even try?
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:09 am

MRYapproach wrote:
intotheair wrote:
simpv wrote:

I'd like to make this forum friendly and open, so sure. Monterey is close enough :).


I started a Central Coast thread a while ago for MRY, SBP, SMX, and SBA. There was a little bit of a conversation for a while before it fizzled out. I personally would consider Santa Cruz and Monterey separate from the Bay Area, but then again, you wouldn't believe how many people now commute up to the Bay.


From my handle, you can tell that I'm located in the MRY area. That said, it's been years since I flew in/out of MRY. It costs more, but mostly I've spent too many hours stuck in a foggy airport thinking about how I could have driven to SJC or SFO in less time. At least the parking is "free" in MRY.

Last week I flew to RNO roundtrip from SJC for the day for <$250. Good luck doing that from MRY.

On the flip side, I fly to Asia 3x every year and SJC doesn't even enter the equation. Maybe if I live in Mountain View, SJC would be worth a hassle. But I fly to TPE on BR, and all the good flights leave after midnight from SFO. At that time, traffic doesn't matter, plus BR runs two 777s at 1 AM most every night. Lounges factor more into the equation at that point than 20 minutes extra driving. But even that is besides the point: SFO is global hub with 3-5 SFO-TPE flights every day. Why should SJC even try?


Because not all people are catching flights that leave after midnight?
 
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intotheair
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:26 am

MRYapproach wrote:
From my handle, you can tell that I'm located in the MRY area. That said, it's been years since I flew in/out of MRY. It costs more, but mostly I've spent too many hours stuck in a foggy airport thinking about how I could have driven to SJC or SFO in less time. At least the parking is "free" in MRY.


You make a good point that MRY's territory spills over into SJC and SFO. I live in SBP (used to live near OAK) and I know people even from here who drive up to SJC to try to get a cheaper fare. I have never actually tried that as I think it's worth it to pay the premium to fly out of SBP compared to driving 2.5-3 hours and paying for parking up there.
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WN732
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:50 am

intotheair wrote:
MRYapproach wrote:
From my handle, you can tell that I'm located in the MRY area. That said, it's been years since I flew in/out of MRY. It costs more, but mostly I've spent too many hours stuck in a foggy airport thinking about how I could have driven to SJC or SFO in less time. At least the parking is "free" in MRY.


You make a good point that MRY's territory spills over into SJC and SFO. I live in SBP (used to live near OAK) and I know people even from here who drive up to SJC to try to get a cheaper fare. I have never actually tried that as I think it's worth it to pay the premium to fly out of SBP compared to driving 2.5-3 hours and paying for parking up there.


I totally understand this, us folks in the Central Valley get shafted if we want to fly out of FAT. I fly commercial regularly but have only used FAT once. The Bay Area and even SMF offer far cheaper options.
 
simpv
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:14 pm

I've been reading a few updates from SFO, and it seems like the general expansion continues.

UA added CMH, filling another hole. Timing seems good only for the SIN and Hawaii flights. Are there any other viable markets left? Perhaps MKE and CLT? Long shot of DSM?

UA goes double daily on TPA, a good thing for connections.

UA remains double daily on FRA through the winter season.
 
simpv
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Interesting: UA to add two round trip flights to BCN for the Mobile World Conference.
https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisc ... o-ual.html

The article mentions that people want the service year round. Is there that much tech traffic between the two to warrant service, or would Level be enough?
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:56 pm

simpv wrote:
Interesting: UA to add two round trip flights to BCN for the Mobile World Conference.
https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisc ... o-ual.html

The article mentions that people want the service year round. Is there that much tech traffic between the two to warrant service, or would Level be enough?


I would expect UA to launch DUB before BCN due to all the tech companies that are in Dublin.
 
AAflyguy
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:26 pm

simpv wrote:
Interesting: UA to add two round trip flights to BCN for the Mobile World Conference.
https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisc ... o-ual.html

The article mentions that people want the service year round. Is there that much tech traffic between the two to warrant service, or would Level be enough?


Both LEVEL and Norwegian currently serve OAK-BCN year-round. LEVEL is moving its existing operation to SFO next week. People want the service year-round on UA even though there are two airlines currently flying there right from their own backyard?? Hmm. Prior to Norwegian (and IAG jumping in with LEVEL to compete), there was no service between the Bay Area and Spain. The last nearly 18-months of continuous service has proven there is plenty of demand. Between the two of them there are 6-7 frequencies a week depending upon the time of year. Not sure there's enough demand to support a 3rd carrier muscling in, even if it is UA. If so it would likely cause one of the existing two to back out eventually. If UA hasn't responded by now, I don't see that it has much of an interest.
 
simpv
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:45 pm

AAflyguy wrote:
simpv wrote:
Interesting: UA to add two round trip flights to BCN for the Mobile World Conference.
https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisc ... o-ual.html

The article mentions that people want the service year round. Is there that much tech traffic between the two to warrant service, or would Level be enough?


Both LEVEL and Norwegian currently serve OAK-BCN year-round. LEVEL is moving its existing operation to SFO next week. People want the service year-round on UA even though there are two airlines currently flying there right from their own backyard?? Hmm. Prior to Norwegian (and IAG jumping in with LEVEL to compete), there was no service between the Bay Area and Spain. The last nearly 18-months of continuous service has proven there is plenty of demand. Between the two of them there are 6-7 frequencies a week depending upon the time of year. Not sure there's enough demand to support a 3rd carrier muscling in, even if it is UA. If so it would likely cause one of the existing two to back out eventually. If UA hasn't responded by now, I don't see that it has much of an interest.


Agreed. I was wondering how much J demand there was between the Bay Area and BCN, or if it is more seasonal Y.
 
simpv
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:00 pm

So it looks the trend of international growth at SFO is continuing, with the announced expansions/additions of MXP, DEL, MEL, YYZ, AKL, PPT, AMS, ICN, LIS, and LGW.

However, I was looking at recent statistics, and noticed that over last two months domestic growth has been flat/negative, but international has boomed at SFO. In Oct, domestic was down 2.4%, while international was up 7% (https://media.flysfo.com/media/sfo/medi ... 201810.pdf). Are we seeing some of SFO's growth transfer to OAK/SJC, even though international flying at those two airports has decreased?

Also, the UA press release mentions the possibility of using remote stands at SFO. Anybody have an update on that? Otherwise A/G will be very busy next summer.
 
SCQ83
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:16 pm

AAflyguy wrote:
Both LEVEL and Norwegian currently serve OAK-BCN year-round. LEVEL is moving its existing operation to SFO next week. People want the service year-round on UA even though there are two airlines currently flying there right from their own backyard?? Hmm. Prior to Norwegian (and IAG jumping in with LEVEL to compete), there was no service between the Bay Area and Spain. The last nearly 18-months of continuous service has proven there is plenty of demand. Between the two of them there are 6-7 frequencies a week depending upon the time of year. Not sure there's enough demand to support a 3rd carrier muscling in, even if it is UA. If so it would likely cause one of the existing two to back out eventually. If UA hasn't responded by now, I don't see that it has much of an interest.


Also United in Spain is extremely weak. I think it is one daily to EWR from MAD and BCN each and seasonal to IAD (from both airports) and that is about it. Spain is AA/IB territory and, to a lesser extent, Delta/Air Europa.

I think the most feasible new route would be MAD-SFO on Norwegian. Norwegian and Iberia now compete year-round in MAD-LAX (LEVEL dropped BCN-LAX, so now it is again a Norwegian monopoly). So if there are two carriers in LAX, I can't see why MAD-SFO shouldn't be able to sustain also two carriers.
 
mandargb
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:31 pm

TP SFO-LIS is announced now starting June2019.
UA has announced number of destinations in starting in 2019 from SFO.

SJC keeps lagging somehow. (Mostly because of limited connection options ?)
After Reno and American taking away their focus, I think SJC should work more closely with SW/AS for domestic expansion.
And try to get foreign airlines affiliated with star/oneworld/skyteam to come SJC.
May be focus on korea, india, china based airlines, by providing some more incentives.
 
danj555
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:41 pm

What does this thread think of SFO's 4-crossed runways?

It seems kinda pointless, like if the 4 runways were separated they could operate somewhat independently. Right now its always a massive traffic jam with really only 1 or 2 runways in active use at a single time.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:24 am

mandargb wrote:
SJC keeps lagging somehow. (Mostly because of limited connection options ?)
After Reno and American taking away their focus, I think SJC should work more closely with SW/AS for domestic expansion.


They've both been expanding like crazy for years at SJC. Perhaps there is further expansion to come, but it's also maybe more likely one ultimately cries uncle and shrinks back to a more conservative position.
 
as739x
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:32 am

danj555 wrote:
What does this thread think of SFO's 4-crossed runways?

It seems kinda pointless, like if the 4 runways were separated they could operate somewhat independently. Right now its always a massive traffic jam with really only 1 or 2 runways in active use at a single time.


Nothing can be done about it. NIMBY's will never allow any additional runway in the Bay, built on pilling or not!! So the only way to really improve traffic is through technology. Getting planes closer, which as of right now is limited to what they have.

There are still times of the day when the airport is not horribly busy and schedules slowly catch up. However, when winter storms hit or the westerly summer winds, your hands are tied with reduced capacity. Go after the money of SFO or operate more from OAK/SJC, pick your poison.

The biggest issue I see arising is the international expansion and lack of gate space. Until the B swing gates open, it will continue to be a challenge to an airport that gets more and more operators and flights, without additional room.

Side note to the thread: AA has also announced DFW-STS with a E175 (assuming Envoy). Nice add
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
B752OS
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:53 am

as739x wrote:
danj555 wrote:
What does this thread think of SFO's 4-crossed runways?

It seems kinda pointless, like if the 4 runways were separated they could operate somewhat independently. Right now its always a massive traffic jam with really only 1 or 2 runways in active use at a single time.


Nothing can be done about it. NIMBY's will never allow any additional runway in the Bay, built on pilling or not!! So the only way to really improve traffic is through technology. Getting planes closer, which as of right now is limited to what they have.

There are still times of the day when the airport is not horribly busy and schedules slowly catch up. However, when winter storms hit or the westerly summer winds, your hands are tied with reduced capacity. Go after the money of SFO or operate more from OAK/SJC, pick your poison.

The biggest issue I see arising is the international expansion and lack of gate space. Until the B swing gates open, it will continue to be a challenge to an airport that gets more and more operators and flights, without additional room.

Side note to the thread: AA has also announced DFW-STS with a E175 (assuming Envoy). Nice add


I would imagine the sheer cost of moving two full runways into the bay (they'd have to in order to have them meet requirements) would be quite high, easily a 9 figure project. Environmental and local opposition aside, the cost may be another major factor going against it.
 
as739x
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:57 am

Valid point as well. There was a plan years ago when, I was working at SFO, to turn 28R into 28L and add a new 28R in the Bay and do a similar arrangement to the 1/19s, but everyone knew it was a pipe dream. Sure would have been sweet
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
babastud
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:01 am

simpv wrote:
So it looks the trend of international growth at SFO is continuing, with the announced expansions/additions of MXP, DEL, MEL, YYZ, AKL, PPT, AMS, ICN, LIS, and LGW.

However, I was looking at recent statistics, and noticed that over last two months domestic growth has been flat/negative, but international has boomed at SFO. In Oct, domestic was down 2.4%, while international was up 7% (https://media.flysfo.com/media/sfo/medi ... 201810.pdf). Are we seeing some of SFO's growth transfer to OAK/SJC, even though international flying at those two airports has decreased?

Also, the UA press release mentions the possibility of using remote stands at SFO. Anybody have an update on that? Otherwise A/G will be very busy next summer.



Yes they have had a drop of Passengers overall the last few months. I believe this is partially due to some domestic options opening up in SJC and or OAK, STS. The bigger issue though was the cuts that Alaska made to their network from SFO. You have to remember that a lot of the domestic growth was driven by VX over the years, with AS now streamlining there operations in SFO your bound to see less routes which means less passengers. I do believe though this is going to be short lived drop, It should start to even out and may increase again with all this International adds. Especially with United International adds it means a lot more connecting domestic passengers. For example: the DEL flight will pull a lot of people from So Cal and South West connecting through SFO. You may see UA increase or upgage some of their routes to meet the demand.
 
babastud
Posts: 236
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:10 am

simpv wrote:
So it looks the trend of international growth at SFO is continuing, with the announced expansions/additions of MXP, DEL, MEL, YYZ, AKL, PPT, AMS, ICN, LIS, and LGW.

However, I was looking at recent statistics, and noticed that over last two months domestic growth has been flat/negative, but international has boomed at SFO. In Oct, domestic was down 2.4%, while international was up 7% (https://media.flysfo.com/media/sfo/medi ... 201810.pdf). Are we seeing some of SFO's growth transfer to OAK/SJC, even though international flying at those two airports has decreased?

Also, the UA press release mentions the possibility of using remote stands at SFO. Anybody have an update on that? Otherwise A/G will be very busy next summer.



SFO has there work cut out for them. Yes, I have seen there plan for eventually gate adds. But that is years away at best and whenever they do construction they always seem to have to tear down active gates, so it means usually a net drop of gates for some time. Thus they can never get ahead of the growth. In a perfect world they would expand out on the Bay by using a pier construction limiting environmental disruption or damage. This though is mostly a pipe dream as others have stated. The reality is passengers are getting quite fed up with waiting for gates and delays! especially with all these International adds. SFO has to think outside the box and get creative. Use whatever works like hardstands or busing to remote temporary gates on other side of Runway. It's time for SFO to make some moves, there current plans do nothing really to address this level of growth.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:20 pm

babastud wrote:
simpv wrote:
So it looks the trend of international growth at SFO is continuing, with the announced expansions/additions of MXP, DEL, MEL, YYZ, AKL, PPT, AMS, ICN, LIS, and LGW.

However, I was looking at recent statistics, and noticed that over last two months domestic growth has been flat/negative, but international has boomed at SFO. In Oct, domestic was down 2.4%, while international was up 7% (https://media.flysfo.com/media/sfo/medi ... 201810.pdf). Are we seeing some of SFO's growth transfer to OAK/SJC, even though international flying at those two airports has decreased?

Also, the UA press release mentions the possibility of using remote stands at SFO. Anybody have an update on that? Otherwise A/G will be very busy next summer.



Yes they have had a drop of Passengers overall the last few months. I believe this is partially due to some domestic options opening up in SJC and or OAK, STS. The bigger issue though was the cuts that Alaska made to their network from SFO. You have to remember that a lot of the domestic growth was driven by VX over the years, with AS now streamlining there operations in SFO your bound to see less routes which means less passengers. I do believe though this is going to be short lived drop, It should start to even out and may increase again with all this International adds. Especially with United International adds it means a lot more connecting domestic passengers. For example: the DEL flight will pull a lot of people from So Cal and South West connecting through SFO. You may see UA increase or upgage some of their routes to meet the demand.


As I understand it, VX was losing money. So was their operation at SFO really viable?
 
babastud
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:38 am

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:54 pm

AirFiero wrote:
babastud wrote:
simpv wrote:
So it looks the trend of international growth at SFO is continuing, with the announced expansions/additions of MXP, DEL, MEL, YYZ, AKL, PPT, AMS, ICN, LIS, and LGW.

However, I was looking at recent statistics, and noticed that over last two months domestic growth has been flat/negative, but international has boomed at SFO. In Oct, domestic was down 2.4%, while international was up 7% (https://media.flysfo.com/media/sfo/medi ... 201810.pdf). Are we seeing some of SFO's growth transfer to OAK/SJC, even though international flying at those two airports has decreased?

Also, the UA press release mentions the possibility of using remote stands at SFO. Anybody have an update on that? Otherwise A/G will be very busy next summer.



Yes they have had a drop of Passengers overall the last few months. I believe this is partially due to some domestic options opening up in SJC and or OAK, STS. The bigger issue though was the cuts that Alaska made to their network from SFO. You have to remember that a lot of the domestic growth was driven by VX over the years, with AS now streamlining there operations in SFO your bound to see less routes which means less passengers. I do believe though this is going to be short lived drop, It should start to even out and may increase again with all this International adds. Especially with United International adds it means a lot more connecting domestic passengers. For example: the DEL flight will pull a lot of people from So Cal and South West connecting through SFO. You may see UA increase or upgage some of their routes to meet the demand.


As I understand it, VX was losing money. So was their operation at SFO really viable?


Your correct, overall there operation was losing more money then making it. That being said they still grew out at SFO a decent small hub and this increased there passenger numbers overall, maybe not there profits!
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1092
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:58 pm

AirFiero wrote:
babastud wrote:
simpv wrote:
So it looks the trend of international growth at SFO is continuing, with the announced expansions/additions of MXP, DEL, MEL, YYZ, AKL, PPT, AMS, ICN, LIS, and LGW.

However, I was looking at recent statistics, and noticed that over last two months domestic growth has been flat/negative, but international has boomed at SFO. In Oct, domestic was down 2.4%, while international was up 7% (https://media.flysfo.com/media/sfo/medi ... 201810.pdf). Are we seeing some of SFO's growth transfer to OAK/SJC, even though international flying at those two airports has decreased?

Also, the UA press release mentions the possibility of using remote stands at SFO. Anybody have an update on that? Otherwise A/G will be very busy next summer.



Yes they have had a drop of Passengers overall the last few months. I believe this is partially due to some domestic options opening up in SJC and or OAK, STS. The bigger issue though was the cuts that Alaska made to their network from SFO. You have to remember that a lot of the domestic growth was driven by VX over the years, with AS now streamlining there operations in SFO your bound to see less routes which means less passengers. I do believe though this is going to be short lived drop, It should start to even out and may increase again with all this International adds. Especially with United International adds it means a lot more connecting domestic passengers. For example: the DEL flight will pull a lot of people from So Cal and South West connecting through SFO. You may see UA increase or upgage some of their routes to meet the demand.


As I understand it, VX was losing money. So was their operation at SFO really viable?


Or they were making money. But that doesn’t align to the narrative here. And everyone will come tell me how much better AS yield management is and how the Eskimo plane is somehow better. Most rehashed topic ever.

As to the original topic, SFO Intl is bursting at the seams. They need to expand. Also, I suspect when AA moves to T1 that UA will make a play on some T2 gates given how heavily utilized their gates are now.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:06 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
As I understand it, VX was losing money. So was their operation at SFO really viable?


Or they were making money. But that doesn’t align to the narrative here. And everyone will come tell me how much better AS yield management is and how the Eskimo plane is somehow better. Most rehashed topic ever.


I’ve seen it reported here on more than one occasion that VX was losing money. If you have information that disputes that, please present it.

I’ve presented no “narrative”, and said nothing about AS. But we know that AS has been trimming routes from SFO. Without some numbers, we don’t know if VX was losing money because or despite their hub operation at SFO. I’d like to see those numbers if they exist.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:20 am

AirFiero wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
As I understand it, VX was losing money. So was their operation at SFO really viable?


Or they were making money. But that doesn’t align to the narrative here. And everyone will come tell me how much better AS yield management is and how the Eskimo plane is somehow better. Most rehashed topic ever.


I’ve seen it reported here on more than one occasion that VX was losing money. If you have information that disputes that, please present it.

I’ve presented no “narrative”, and said nothing about AS. But we know that AS has been trimming routes from SFO. Without some numbers, we don’t know if VX was losing money because or despite their hub operation at SFO. I’d like to see those numbers if they exist.


The SEC has all the data freely available to the world, but here is an example earnings release.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 22044.html

Feel free to research more. VX did lose money for many years and was profitable in their final years.
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:49 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

Or they were making money. But that doesn’t align to the narrative here. And everyone will come tell me how much better AS yield management is and how the Eskimo plane is somehow better. Most rehashed topic ever.


I’ve seen it reported here on more than one occasion that VX was losing money. If you have information that disputes that, please present it.

I’ve presented no “narrative”, and said nothing about AS. But we know that AS has been trimming routes from SFO. Without some numbers, we don’t know if VX was losing money because or despite their hub operation at SFO. I’d like to see those numbers if they exist.


The SEC has all the data freely available to the world, but here is an example earnings release.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 22044.html

Feel free to research more. VX did lose money for many years and was profitable in their final years.


Excellent link, it answers the big question.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3893
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:23 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
atcpeter wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
SFO need a nonstop flight to South America. I am not expecting UA and hopefully either Latam or Avianca will come to SFO soon.


LAN Peru operated SFO-LIM with a 767 until 2014 (I think). Flying to South America doesn't fit with United's strategy right now, not to mention the lack of gate space. Avianca already flies daily to MSLP and Copa is doing well with PTY, so the availability of connecting options might make competition for a nonstop tough.


SFO-LIM was fairly short lived. The TACA flight (now Avianca) that you mention has been around since the 1980s though.

I wonder if there is any chance of COPA trying SJC.

I would doubt Copa coming to SJC with the tie up with UA coming from South America. and United taking care of their Maintenance in SFO and LAX. United has no crews in SJC. And I'm afraid they're not looking to put any there at the moment without their Own Service to back it up.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:44 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
atcpeter wrote:

LAN Peru operated SFO-LIM with a 767 until 2014 (I think). Flying to South America doesn't fit with United's strategy right now, not to mention the lack of gate space. Avianca already flies daily to MSLP and Copa is doing well with PTY, so the availability of connecting options might make competition for a nonstop tough.


SFO-LIM was fairly short lived. The TACA flight (now Avianca) that you mention has been around since the 1980s though.

I wonder if there is any chance of COPA trying SJC.

I would doubt Copa coming to SJC with the tie up with UA coming from South America. and United taking care of their Maintenance in SFO and LAX. United has no crews in SJC. And I'm afraid they're not looking to put any there at the moment without their Own Service to back it up.


With UA’s major hub just up highway 101, I wouldn’t expect much from UA or its partner airlines at SJC.
 
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intotheair
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:14 pm

I doubt it'll ever happen, but I sorely miss UA at OAK. It's nothing fancy, but I think OAK is an underrated airport that is even more user-friendly now with BART. It would be easier for UA to return to OAK than it would be to go back to JFK, though I doubt either are priorities for the airline.
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BoeingGuy
Posts: 6315
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:00 pm

AirFiero wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

SFO-LIM was fairly short lived. The TACA flight (now Avianca) that you mention has been around since the 1980s though.

I wonder if there is any chance of COPA trying SJC.

I would doubt Copa coming to SJC with the tie up with UA coming from South America. and United taking care of their Maintenance in SFO and LAX. United has no crews in SJC. And I'm afraid they're not looking to put any there at the moment without their Own Service to back it up.


With UA’s major hub just up highway 101, I wouldn’t expect much from UA or its partner airlines at SJC.


You mean like NH serving SJC? ;)
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:39 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
I would doubt Copa coming to SJC with the tie up with UA coming from South America. and United taking care of their Maintenance in SFO and LAX. United has no crews in SJC. And I'm afraid they're not looking to put any there at the moment without their Own Service to back it up.


With UA’s major hub just up highway 101, I wouldn’t expect much from UA or its partner airlines at SJC.


You mean like NH serving SJC? ;)


Ok, so why then does NH serve SJC?
 
crescent
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:09 am

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:14 pm

This is more of a comment on UA's strategy being hub only. They dont think it's worth shunting SJC local customers to NH's NRT hub but NH does, and so does DL in doing routes like PDX-AMS and IND-CDG.
 
theasianguy
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:31 am

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:08 pm

So SFO has seen massive growth in international traffic this decade, but is this much service really sustainable? The expansion has been much more aggressive from the transatlantic side than transpacific. I think several of these services are unprofitable, and there will be service cuts when the next economic downturn hits.

In particular, some overserved routes I see are SFO-SIN (24x weekly from none in 2016) and SFO-DEL (soon to be 16x weekly from none in 2015). On the European side, KLM might pull the second SFO-AMS, and AF/XL/French Bee fight over Paris. There is no way all these Southern European carriers can coexist (Iberia, LEVEL, Air Italy, TAP). Not to mention UA added MUC, ZRH, AMS relatively recently. I'm not saying all these will be cut, but not all can stay for the long term.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15393
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:22 pm

AirFiero wrote:
But we know that AS has been trimming routes from SFO.


Except the number of departures and destinations from SFO is actually up since the acquisition was announced. So I'm not sure how "we know AS has been trimming routes" when the numbers have increased.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
crescent
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:09 am

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:43 pm

AS has dropped numerous routes in the last 12-18 months from SFO.... someone else can list them. If you say it is up since the acquisition was announced, it is because of the acquisition itself or measured from a different point.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:05 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
But we know that AS has been trimming routes from SFO.


Except the number of departures and destinations from SFO is actually up since the acquisition was announced. So I'm not sure how "we know AS has been trimming routes" when the numbers have increased.


The numbers have been declining recently. Maybe someone can list them.
 
simpv
Topic Author
Posts: 164
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Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:09 pm

For the 2018 calendar year (Jan-Oct): Air Carrier landings up 3.7%
For Oct 2018: Air Carrier landings down 2.8%

https://media.flysfo.com/media/sfo/medi ... 201810.pdf

As this shows, Sept and October have shown decreases in total aircraft landings and domestic passengers, but overall international flights are up around 10% (and 7% more passengers). So it does seem that the drawdown of AS/VX has been offset by growth in both domestic carriers (UA) and foreign carriers.
 
babastud
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:38 am

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:18 pm

theasianguy wrote:
So SFO has seen massive growth in international traffic this decade, but is this much service really sustainable? The expansion has been much more aggressive from the transatlantic side than transpacific. I think several of these services are unprofitable, and there will be service cuts when the next economic downturn hits.

In particular, some overserved routes I see are SFO-SIN (24x weekly from none in 2016) and SFO-DEL (soon to be 16x weekly from none in 2015). On the European side, KLM might pull the second SFO-AMS, and AF/XL/French Bee fight over Paris. There is no way all these Southern European carriers can coexist (Iberia, LEVEL, Air Italy, TAP). Not to mention UA added MUC, ZRH, AMS relatively recently. I'm not saying all these will be cut, but not all can stay for the long term.



The Bay Area was undeserved to Europe for many years, this is simply catching up to where it should be. It was also undeserved to Australia and India also. New technology jets like the 787 has made many of these routes not just possible but also profitable. The Bay Area is one of the wealthiest per capita area in the world and is the home to Silicon Valley and many other major industries and business. Of course down turns happen and things go up and down, but the bottom line is that most airlines have been itching to expand or open service to SFO over the last several years do to how important and profitable the flights are. I doubt many routes will go anytime soon if ever.
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:54 pm

Not clear from the numbers in the article but SJC thinks they'll pass OAK in overall passenger numbers this year https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/12/17/ ... lso-jumps/

The difference between having one growing airline (WN) and two (WN, AS)
 
jplatts
Posts: 2715
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: San Francisco Bay Area Aviation 2018

Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:26 pm

While WN already serves BWI nonstop from OAK and SJC, WN could add OAK-IAD and SJC-IAD nonstop service in order to better compete against AS on San Francisco Bay Area to DC service. IAD is almost 60 miles west of BWI, and BWI is too far from the westernmost parts of the DC area (including western Fairfax County and Loudoun County) to be a viable alternative to IAD for those traveling to the westernmost parts of the DC area.

Even though AS doesn't serve DTW nonstop from any of the San Francisco Bay Area airports, WN could add nonstop service to DTW from OAK on at least a seasonal basis since there is a lot of demand to DTW from OAK during the summer travel season.

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