Roots1
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Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:39 pm

I saw this mentioned in the Upstate New York thread but didn't see its own thread.

Air Canada appears to be ending three Beech 1900 routes to the U.S. Harrisburg, Rochester and Syracuse are all gone from the schedule after October 31.

I didn't check the domestic Canada Beech 1900 routes. Are those aircraft being retired or are these routes performing that poorly?
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:43 pm

Roots1 wrote:
I saw this mentioned in the Upstate New York thread but didn't see its own thread.

Air Canada appears to be ending three Beech 1900 routes to the U.S. Harrisburg, Rochester and Syracuse are all gone from the schedule after October 31.

I didn't check the domestic Canada Beech 1900 routes. Are those aircraft being retired or are these routes performing that poorly?


Looks like the B1900 at YYZ is dead. They pulled all the domestic routes this summer, Sarnia was the last one.
 
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United_fan
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:12 pm

The Beech's have no markings on them,either.
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
Noise
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:18 pm

Are they retiring the B1900? They also just ended YYC-YQF with the B1900.
 
BenTheGreat97
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:28 pm

The Beech 1900s are operated by Air Georgian. According to a Georgian pilot I know who flies the Beech, they're mostly getting them moved to fly out of Calgary (where he's based) and they're in basic talks about getting rid of them and replacing them with new airplanes, but he doesn't know what they will be. Air Georgian also flies the CRJ-100s that Jazz used to operate, but there seem to be no talks about replacing those at the moment.

And about the 1900s, they are not painted in the Air Canada Express colours. They used to be, but AC seems to want to distance themselves away from that type of plane all together.
 
csweet
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:29 pm

So they are retiring the routes completely? Would it not make sense to just replace with CRJ 200s?
 
sbaflyer
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:32 pm

csweet wrote:
So they are retiring the routes completely? Would it not make sense to just replace with CRJ 200s?


Guess these markets won't support the upgauge to CRJ or even DH8. Right now, they have about 60-80 seats per day. It would have been nice to keep 1-2x CRJ or DH8. It was a nice option out of SYR to connect to a ton of markets out of YYZ.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:35 pm

BDL-YUL was also a B1900 route but it looks like it was spared and upgraded to a Dash 8.

AC used to have quite a robust network of B1900 flights ex Canada to the Northeastern US. In addition to these routes, YYZ-ALB/HPN/RIC were also flown, as was YUL-ALB.


I would argue that there is a market for these flights, especially as AC continues to build YYZ into a megahub. However, the B1900 is the wrong aircraft in today's environment, and it is hard to convince travellers to fly on such an aircraft, especially considering that some of the hops these birds were doing (ALB-YYZ comes to mind) had a block time of over 90 minutes.
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United_fan
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:39 pm

Well there goes ROC's distinction of 'international'
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
TucsonDave
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:51 pm

sbaflyer wrote:
csweet wrote:
So they are retiring the routes completely? Would it not make sense to just replace with CRJ 200s?


Guess these markets won't support the upgauge to CRJ or even DH8. Right now, they have about 60-80 seats per day. It would have been nice to keep 1-2x CRJ or DH8. It was a nice option out of SYR to connect to a ton of markets out of YYZ.

Good news is Gate 14 in South Concourse will soon be available, and seldom used 12 is nearby. Southwest, anyone??
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:02 pm

USAirALB wrote:
BDL-YUL was also a B1900 route but it looks like it was spared and upgraded to a Dash 8.

AC used to have quite a robust network of B1900 flights ex Canada to the Northeastern US. In addition to these routes, YYZ-ALB/HPN/RIC were also flown, as was YUL-ALB.


They got into the Midwest, too. YYZ-DAY was always B1900.
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Buddys747
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:26 pm

United_fan wrote:
Well there goes ROC's distinction of 'international'

And Harrisburg too. They have been heavily promoting this service lately for international connections, with service actually increasing to 4x daily flights. Oh well...
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:42 pm

Wow, I didn't even realize these services still operated. These are the types of markets that are easily and dare I say best served via UA codeshare. Who in their right mind wants to fly a tiny prop with no bathroom when at least a regional jet if not mainline is available?
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:43 pm

Buddys747 wrote:
United_fan wrote:
Well there goes ROC's distinction of 'international'

And Harrisburg too. They have been heavily promoting this service lately for international connections, with service actually increasing to 4x daily flights. Oh well...


Same thing goes for SYR, we will loose international distinction. The problem with the YYZ, is the flight on Beech-1900 are on average only at 42% capacity , and that’s average, some flights better some are a lot worse. That means that their are only around 7-8 people per/flight, although that’s with 4x daily, who knows if they had 2x daily with a Dash or CRJ it might be better. Most people that fly the route know that those flights are also constantly being delayed severely or cancelled. Of the ~120 monthly flights (at 4x daily) on average only around 68 of them ever fly.
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SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:43 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Wow, I didn't even realize these services still operated. These are the types of markets that are easily and dare I say best served via UA codeshare. Who in their right mind wants to fly a tiny prop with no bathroom when at least a regional jet if not mainline is available?


It has a bathroom, not a great one, but it has one
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SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:55 pm

For argument sake, In the possibility of restarting service here are my thoughts onif someday the flights will return;

Harrisburg is ~2hrs from a place where AC flys (PHL) so I doubt that they will regain service.

Rochester is a bit of a stretch, as they are around 2.5hrs (not counting border crossing times) from a destination where AC flys which is Hamilton, Canada and add on another hour if they drive right to YYZ.

Syracuse is the only one I see a possibility of restarting service on a larger plane someday, not a large possibility but more than MDT or ROC. It is in the center of a vast area that lacks Canadian non-stops, if they were to restart service to only SYR I could see that working as they could grab passengers from all directions. It is in the center of the state where two main highways intersect. If you combine ROC and SYR capacity totals into just SYR flights then it might work.

Thoughts?
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MIflyer12
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:56 pm

Avg. fares need to be pretty high to justify paying a Canadian or U.S. pilot to fly 19 or fewer people. Other than subsidized (like EAS) routes, or no-option far north routes, this kind of service is dead, dead, dead.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:58 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Wow, I didn't even realize these services still operated. These are the types of markets that are easily and dare I say best served via UA codeshare. Who in their right mind wants to fly a tiny prop with no bathroom when at least a regional jet if not mainline is available?


People who want to fly non-stop. Flying to YYZ from those places via DTW or EWR or whatever is likely to take nearly as long as driving.

I'm a bit surprised they've been able to make these flights work for years, and now that AC has a huge global hub operation, they decide to fold.
Last edited by YYZLGA on Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Flaps
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:59 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Wow, I didn't even realize these services still operated. These are the types of markets that are easily and dare I say best served via UA codeshare. Who in their right mind wants to fly a tiny prop with no bathroom when at least a regional jet if not mainline is available?


Well, me for one.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:08 pm

YYZ-PVD started out on the Dash 8 on Air Ontario circa 1998. It eventually became a Beechcraft 1900 before being cut in 2013. The route was restarted this year seasonally on the CRJ.
 
ScottB
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:40 pm

USAirALB wrote:
AC used to have quite a robust network of B1900 flights ex Canada to the Northeastern US. In addition to these routes, YYZ-ALB/HPN/RIC were also flown, as was YUL-ALB.


That old remote holdroom for the transborder flights was awful, though. Then again, the old "temporary" Terminal 2 was pretty wretched itself.

YYZLGA wrote:
I'm a bit surprised they've been able to make these flights work for years, and now that AC has a huge global hub operation, they decide to fold.


The B1900s aren't getting any younger and I'd guess Air Georgian must have the same sort of difficulties experienced by the U.S. regionals in attracting and keeping pilots at wages which are economically sustainable for these markets. If they're concentrating the B1900s at YYC to keep services to smaller domestic markets, these routes suffer the fate we're seeing.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:53 pm

They're ending YYZ-PVD in just a few days on 10/6 as well.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:26 pm

YYZ is simply so congested that a few less flight operations per day (around 8 daily flights?) for these 3 cities makes sense unfortunately for those few that actually use the services.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:30 pm

The terminal where these flights arrive in YYZ is a nightmare. No wonder people don’t make international connections there.
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Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:45 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
Buddys747 wrote:
United_fan wrote:
Well there goes ROC's distinction of 'international'

And Harrisburg too. They have been heavily promoting this service lately for international connections, with service actually increasing to 4x daily flights. Oh well...


Same thing goes for SYR, we will loose international distinction. The problem with the YYZ, is the flight on Beech-1900 are on average only at 42% capacity , and that’s average, some flights better some are a lot worse. That means that their are only around 7-8 people per/flight, although that’s with 4x daily, who knows if they had 2x daily with a Dash or CRJ it might be better. Most people that fly the route know that those flights are also constantly being delayed severely or cancelled. Of the ~120 monthly flights (at 4x daily) on average only around 68 of them ever fly.


Ironically back in the days of regulation, SYR had a bunch of international (transborder) service. YOW alone had 4x daily to SYR on PI/US D9S/732s and US was forced to stop at SYR before going to the places they really wanted to fly to.

whywhyzee wrote:
Roots1 wrote:
I saw this mentioned in the Upstate New York thread but didn't see its own thread.

Air Canada appears to be ending three Beech 1900 routes to the U.S. Harrisburg, Rochester and Syracuse are all gone from the schedule after October 31.

I didn't check the domestic Canada Beech 1900 routes. Are those aircraft being retired or are these routes performing that poorly?


Looks like the B1900 at YYZ is dead. They pulled all the domestic routes this summer, Sarnia was the last one.


The BEH is still on 3/4 daily YYZ-YZR until sometime in November and then it goes to 2x DH1.

WeatherPilot wrote:
They're ending YYZ-PVD in just a few days on 10/6 as well.


I believe that will be coming back next spring though as it was re-launched as a seasonal route.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:49 pm

An airport with international in the name just means they have the customs services to handle any international arrivals whether they be airlines or private. There's no requirement for an airport to have scheduled international service to be an international airport.
 
bridge29
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:32 pm

Unfortunate for MDT. I wonder if AC will be back. They were just upgraded to 4x daily, and although the load factors did take a hit, they moved the most amount of passengers to YYZ in years this summer.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:04 pm

Kind of sad. Provided a nice alternative for international travel to avoid the crowded and delay-prone NYC/BOS/PHL airports on connections. These were connecting flights unless Air Canada gets a new plane, no airline is going to cover them.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:06 pm

PVD was announced as seasonal, service resumes in the spring.
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Buddys747
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:26 pm

bridge29 wrote:
Unfortunate for MDT. I wonder if AC will be back. They were just upgraded to 4x daily, and although the load factors did take a hit, they moved the most amount of passengers to YYZ in years this summer.

The only other good option without back tracking to Europe is PHL, hence why I think they were doing better. There were some days a CRJ was sitting st the terminal, though probably just a substitution.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:30 pm

What cities get service depends on whether they sell enough tickets at sufficient yield, not raw load factors. Most of the people using these flights are likely using legacy-priced transborder and international connecting itineraries.

Given that ROC and SYR supported four B1900's in summer, I would not be surprised to see both of these markets operated seasonally with DH8's. Especially if oil prices don't stay as unusually high as they are now.

Jim
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WeatherPilot
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:40 pm

The problem I see with AC possibly returning service to SYR is that anything larger than the B1900 or the CRJ200 won't fit in the corner where they currently park.
 
9252fly
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:44 pm

I think the Beech 1900s will all be gone soon. Some routes will remain out of YYC until a replacement type of aircraft is decided upon due to the entry of WS Link entering those markets. It would not surprise me to see Air Georgian replace the Beech 1900s with Dash 8-100s as it may offer sustainable economics . There is an existing Bombardier airframe extension program for that type.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:01 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
What cities get service depends on whether they sell enough tickets at sufficient yield, not raw load factors. Most of the people using these flights are likely using legacy-priced transborder and international connecting itineraries.

Given that ROC and SYR supported four B1900's in summer, I would not be surprised to see both of these markets operated seasonally with DH8's. Especially if oil prices don't stay as unusually high as they are now.

Jim



I wouldn’t say they ‘supported’ 4x daily, I would say they were dragged. I don’t know about ROC, but SYR load factors on average are around 42%, the lowest monthly I saw was 33% and highest of 52% I wouldn’t imagine ROC would be much better if at all.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:03 pm

Stinks that the SYR service is ending the day before the new renovations open.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
PVD757
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:33 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
They're ending YYZ-PVD in just a few days on 10/6 as well.


Yes, hence being seasonal service.
 
bridge29
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:34 pm

MDT hasn't released July stats yet but AC had a 55% load factor in June when the 4x daily started. YTD load factor up to June was 45%. Don't know yields obviously but those numbers aren't great.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:48 pm

Are the B1900s in Halifax also closing down routes?
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:28 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
The terminal where these flights arrive in YYZ is a nightmare. No wonder people don’t make international connections there.


It would be nice if the regional terminal weren’t at ground level, but the rest of the US to international connection experience at YYZ is really quite nice. On the whole, it’s probably a better experience than places like PHL or EWR.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
hz747300
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:13 am

I was going to book this to go to a cousin's graduation outside of ROC next May. I had checked the FlightRadar and loved that the flights were on average less than 30 minutes. Anyways, the fares were awfully expensive. Perhaps a bigger plane with lower fares hitting the connection banks at YYZ would be better off. We'll see now--seems a real pain in the rear to hire a car across the border.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:49 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
Are the B1900s in Halifax also closing down routes?


Nope as those aren’t operated by Air Georgian. In Atlantic Canada, AC can charge high fares to fly pax on the likes of YYG-YSJ or YYT-YQX that are short plane hops, but rather long drives.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/S

Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:56 am

hz747300 wrote:
I was going to book this to go to a cousin's graduation outside of ROC next May. I had checked the FlightRadar and loved that the flights were on average less than 30 minutes. Anyways, the fares were awfully expensive. Perhaps a bigger plane with lower fares hitting the connection banks at YYZ would be better off. We'll see now--seems a real pain in the rear to hire a car across the border.


I think a big problem too is that the DH1 fleet is down to only 15 frames. Until AC order more Q400s to displace DH3s to in-turn displace/free up DH1 capacity, these low LF transborder routes have no hope of returning...remember Americans are also prop-averse. It’s an easy decision for AC to convert YZR to 100% DH1 when you’re the only game in town vs competing with the US3’s RJs to their hubs and international connections.
 
derian
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:23 am

Re: retirement of 1900s, The 1900s are still workhorses here in the Maritimes/Newfoundland, flying with EVAS on behalf of AC Express (albeit with no AC markings- I would love to see them in the new livery) handling YHZ-YFC/YSJ/YQM/YYG and YYT-YDF/YQX and even going all the way up to YYR and YWK. I can't see them going anywhere, and honestly, I really hope they don't leave- always a very interesting flight experience with an excellent view of the cockpit.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:47 am

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
The terminal where these flights arrive in YYZ is a nightmare. No wonder people don’t make international connections there.


That part of the terminal was just heavily renovated, so it's a lot less crowded than it used to be.

hz747300 wrote:
I was going to book this to go to a cousin's graduation outside of ROC next May. I had checked the FlightRadar and loved that the flights were on average less than 30 minutes. Anyways, the fares were awfully expensive. Perhaps a bigger plane with lower fares hitting the connection banks at YYZ would be better off. We'll see now--seems a real pain in the rear to hire a car across the border.


AC has always adopted the approach of charging ultra-high fares on its monopoly transborder routes so that they can get as much from the few business travelers who have no other option, while filling the plane up with connecting traffic. It seems to be working for them, but it would be interesting to see whether a lower-fare model might work even better. I'm sure there are lots of people in Pittsburgh or Cleveland who might be interested in a weekend in Toronto--maybe fly up for a baseball game or something--but they're not going to make the trip if it's $900.

On the other hand, you shouldn't have any problem taking a rental car across the border.
 
Beatyair
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:01 am

What is the replacement plane? There is no question that B1900, SAAB’s, and Dash 8-100 and -200 are getting old. That is the replacement in a propeller plane. Everyone is going bigger, what about the small plane that is still needed.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 pm

Beatyair wrote:
What is the replacement plane? There is no question that B1900, SAAB’s, and Dash 8-100 and -200 are getting old. That is the replacement in a propeller plane. Everyone is going bigger, what about the small plane that is still needed.


For AC the DH3 with the life extension program is the replacement aircraft.

No doubt more Q400s will replace the displaced DH3s.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:57 pm

I wonder if AC has given the Cessna Sky Courier any thought as a replacement for the B1900. It's still a twin turboprop with 19 seats but it might be more efficient.

https://cessna.txtav.com/en/turboprop/skycourier
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:39 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
I wonder if AC has given the Cessna Sky Courier any thought as a replacement for the B1900. It's still a twin turboprop with 19 seats but it might be more efficient.

https://cessna.txtav.com/en/turboprop/skycourier


Not pressurized and slower than the 1900... They could just as easily look at the Do228NG and Viking Twin Otter 400 in the same performance range if they were interested... and indications are that they have don't have any real interest in any investment in marginal markets of that size... a Dash 8-100 replacement even seems to be off the radar, the sub-50 seat market will be slowly abandoned for AC.
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MO11
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:41 pm

I don't think Air Canada is interested in branding the 19-seat market anymore.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Air Canada Ending YYZ-MDT/ROC/SYR

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:50 pm

ScottB wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
The B1900s aren't getting any younger and I'd guess Air Georgian must have the same sort of difficulties experienced by the U.S. regionals in attracting and keeping pilots at wages which are economically sustainable for these markets.


Didn't Canada waive the maximum age for airline pilots? So, could an operator employ retired pilots (from the U.S. or Canada, for example) who aren't really ready to retire?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.

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