Dieuwer
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:06 pm

heavymetal wrote:
It's a balancing act. To date, JetBlue has found out the hard way that less seats does not necessarily = more $$$, so they have changed that slightly. By all public communications, Mint appears to be paying for the floor space it takes up. I wouldn't expect JetBlue to say otherwise, but until we have better data to go off, it appears to be doing fine.


I don't understand this claim that JetBlue has less seats in their planes than the US3.
I just checked SeatGuru. JetBlue has 150 seats in their A320 version and so does Delta in A320-V1. The JetBlue A321 all core has 200 seats while the Delta A321 has 192 seats!
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:13 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
heavymetal wrote:
It's a balancing act. To date, JetBlue has found out the hard way that less seats does not necessarily = more $$$, so they have changed that slightly. By all public communications, Mint appears to be paying for the floor space it takes up. I wouldn't expect JetBlue to say otherwise, but until we have better data to go off, it appears to be doing fine.


I don't understand this claim that JetBlue has less seats in their planes than the US3.
I just checked SeatGuru. JetBlue has 150 seats in their A320 version and so does Delta in A320-V1. The JetBlue A319 all core has 200 seats while the Delta A321 has 192 seats!

Delta has 157 seats in their A320s. Delta also has a premium cabin on their narrow bodies that they can sell for more than B6 can with Even More Space, plus the Y+ cabin.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:19 pm

airliner371 wrote:
These decisions are really helping Southwest solidify their own position in the market. Southwest went from the original no-frills airline to the airline that won't sacrifice comfort or flexibility for price. It's really fascinating.

In the end, I think there is a case for an airline like Southwest to charge slightly more for every customer to know exactly what they're getting: a solid, flexible, comfortable and friendly experience. If you're not an elite member on these other carriers, you can trust that no matter what, your experience on Southwest is nearly guaranteed. It's nothing over-the-moon, but it's solid and reliable, and if I can be just slightly hyperbolic to make the point, it's humane.



It is fascinating if not a bit ironic. The problem is I don't think a new airline could duplicate SW. They would be dead in the water in a few years due to pricing. SW has the advantage of 4 generations of Americans assuming they are the low cost leader. That advantage buys them a lot of leeway in pricing as we have seen but it will diminish over time. A new entry would get crushed right off the bat.
 
heavymetal
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:21 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
heavymetal wrote:
It's a balancing act. To date, JetBlue has found out the hard way that less seats does not necessarily = more $$$, so they have changed that slightly. By all public communications, Mint appears to be paying for the floor space it takes up. I wouldn't expect JetBlue to say otherwise, but until we have better data to go off, it appears to be doing fine.


I don't understand this claim that JetBlue has less seats in their planes than the US3.
I just checked SeatGuru. JetBlue has 150 seats in their A320 version and so does Delta in A320-V1.


I never made the claim they had less seats than the US3, I was merely responding to your post that claimed the logic was simply "more seats = $$$". That's not necessarily true, it's about finding the right balance.

However, to respond to your point about seat counts, your comparison is not accurate because those seat counts you reference are not an apples-to-apples comparison. Delta's V1 has 150 seats with 12 first class seats, whereas JetBlue has 150 seats (soon to be 162) with an all-coach cabin. Delta's A320 V2 cabin has 160-seats, which I believe will eventually be the standard for all of their A320's. So not only will they have more seats than JetBlue, but they will do so while retaining a first-class cabin. If you converted first-class in the V2 layout to coach, that would yield at least 8 more-seats by simply converting doubles to triples (4 rows x 2 add'l seats per row), and then you would gain an additional 20-24 inches by re-pitching from 36 inches down to 30-31 inches. That, combined with other possible efficiencies in the cabin, would probably help get you +1 row of coach, so you would be looking at 170-175 seats.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:30 pm

heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I expected them to do this, but it's still sad. And bowing to wall street really has very little to do with market share. AA/DL tows the line, whereas Kirby just went ahead with his expansion plan anyway and succeeded. We will see how this works out. I would more concerned if they start cutting routes like AS.


The Street has beaten down AAL for their heavy debtload, even while they toe the party line of capacity discipline. Delta can do nearly as they please because they deliver superior results in just about every metric imaginable: operational performance, financial performance, reinvesting in the business and employees, and returning capital to shareholders.

It remains to be seen whether or not the UAL expansion plan succeeds, so to say it has "succeeded" already is a tad premature. One good quarter, 2Q 2018, does not make a definitive case, especially when the year-over-year comps for United had such a low barrier that things would be much worse if they hadn't beaten them.

It will take a solid 2-3 years, minimum, to really understand if Kirby's strategy at UAL is paying off. I'm not saying it won't pay off, but to declare success already is premature.

tphuang wrote:
That's the thing. They are very competitive. Their RASM performance has been good all year. The've been hurt by fuel price going up more than most airlines since they don't do any hedging. They run some routes that are loosing too much money (like Cuba and LGB) and Q2 was a bad quarter. But Q1 they were definitely above average.

Having the most legroom in Y and Y+ helps them generate revenue premium in BOS and JFK. They'd risk loosing that revenue premium if they back away from it.


Having the most legroom in Y and Y+ helps them generate a revenue premium, perhaps, but it also is a huge contributing factor to their higher cost per seat mile vs. relative peers like Alaska and Southwest. Based on margins alone, historically, JetBlue has not been appropriately compensated for that generous legroom. Alaska and Southwest have generally had better margins, which clearly shows that either a) JetBlue cannot control its costs, b) JetBlue isn't being paid enough of a premium for the extra legroom, or c) a combination of both.


B6 did better than AS for the 2 quarters prior to last quarter. And their fall last quarter is directly due to the facing a much higher fuel cost jump than their peers. Their revenue performance has been pretty good as I said. And is expected to be better than AS/WN in Q3. Also AS and WN have achieved their margin in large part due to network advantages they've built up through decades. B6 doesn't have any focus cities with the kind of dominance that are like ANC/SEA for AS or what WN has. The fact that they can still achieve revenue premium at BOS and JFK with no network advantage of any kind should show you how much revenue boost they get based on their reputation. Just think about how many routes that they've chased AA off in BOS/JFK.

They have to be careful to not loose that.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:33 pm

B752OS wrote:
If they cut the pitch on Even More Space seats (already one of the best values in the US airline business) this will really hurt them in my eyes.


What B6 could do is add more of those on the A321s but then add some 31" rows that are basic economy. (The idea is to not add a 5th FA.) I expect that to be done on the transcon ones as well...add a row and cut a few rows to 31".

An alternative is a larger buy on board programme on domestic US flights excluding flights to LAX and SFO.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:44 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
B752OS wrote:
If they cut the pitch on Even More Space seats (already one of the best values in the US airline business) this will really hurt them in my eyes.


What B6 could do is add more of those on the A321s but then add some 31" rows that are basic economy. (The idea is to not add a 5th FA.) I expect that to be done on the transcon ones as well...add a row and cut a few rows to 31".

An alternative is a larger buy on board programme on domestic US flights excluding flights to LAX and SFO.


I don't think they can add more to the 200 seaters. They'd have to add at least 2 rows and maybe 3 to make it worth the RASM decline and the cost of extra FA. And if they do that, they won't be able to claim to have more legroom anymore, which is part of their pitch.

But I do think on mint, they can easily add another row. There is no reason they need 7 rows of EMS when there is already mint cabin. And they also have 33 inch y seat which can be reduced to 32 inch. The margin on that would be unbeatable in the transcon market.
 
heavymetal
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:55 pm

tphuang wrote:
heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I expected them to do this, but it's still sad. And bowing to wall street really has very little to do with market share. AA/DL tows the line, whereas Kirby just went ahead with his expansion plan anyway and succeeded. We will see how this works out. I would more concerned if they start cutting routes like AS.


The Street has beaten down AAL for their heavy debtload, even while they toe the party line of capacity discipline. Delta can do nearly as they please because they deliver superior results in just about every metric imaginable: operational performance, financial performance, reinvesting in the business and employees, and returning capital to shareholders.

It remains to be seen whether or not the UAL expansion plan succeeds, so to say it has "succeeded" already is a tad premature. One good quarter, 2Q 2018, does not make a definitive case, especially when the year-over-year comps for United had such a low barrier that things would be much worse if they hadn't beaten them.

It will take a solid 2-3 years, minimum, to really understand if Kirby's strategy at UAL is paying off. I'm not saying it won't pay off, but to declare success already is premature.

tphuang wrote:
That's the thing. They are very competitive. Their RASM performance has been good all year. The've been hurt by fuel price going up more than most airlines since they don't do any hedging. They run some routes that are loosing too much money (like Cuba and LGB) and Q2 was a bad quarter. But Q1 they were definitely above average.

Having the most legroom in Y and Y+ helps them generate revenue premium in BOS and JFK. They'd risk loosing that revenue premium if they back away from it.


Having the most legroom in Y and Y+ helps them generate a revenue premium, perhaps, but it also is a huge contributing factor to their higher cost per seat mile vs. relative peers like Alaska and Southwest. Based on margins alone, historically, JetBlue has not been appropriately compensated for that generous legroom. Alaska and Southwest have generally had better margins, which clearly shows that either a) JetBlue cannot control its costs, b) JetBlue isn't being paid enough of a premium for the extra legroom, or c) a combination of both.


B6 did better than AS for the 2 quarters prior to last quarter. And their fall last quarter is directly due to the facing a much higher fuel cost jump than their peers. Their revenue performance has been pretty good as I said. And is expected to be better than AS/WN in Q3. Also AS and WN have achieved their margin in large part due to network advantages they've built up through decades. B6 doesn't have any focus cities with the kind of dominance that are like ANC/SEA for AS or what WN has. The fact that they can still achieve revenue premium at BOS and JFK with no network advantage of any kind should show you how much revenue boost they get based on their reputation. Just think about how many routes that they've chased AA off in BOS/JFK.

They have to be careful to not loose that.


2 quarters does not remotely make enough of a trend. I would respond to that with 10+ years of under performance vs. AS and WN. But, let's see if the 2-quarter trend will continue, I'm willing to be proven wrong going forward. If the fall was simply due to higher fuel costs, due to them being less-hedged as you referenced in a previous post, then one can equally argue that the only reason for outperformance in the prior 2 quarters was because they weren't paying the hedging expenses like AS and WN. Can't have it both ways.

Also, you should not be giving JetBlue a pass for not "having any focus cities with the kind of dominance...", that is a decision JetBlue has strategically made that has yet to materialize in a payoff. Perhaps they should be seeking those types of markets to consistently generate superior margins.

I haven't contested that JetBlue doesn't get a marginal revenue premium, as you note in BOS/JFK. All I am saying is that it hasn't translated into superior margins, which means that the revenue premium isn't offsetting the same cost premium.

Lastly, it's "lose", not "loose" ;)
 
jplatts
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:57 pm

bob75013 wrote:
My guess is Southwest will need to follow suit. Right now it's Wanna Get Away prices are nowhere near competitive with deep discount carriers (for example, I can fly from Dallas to Chicago on United for $51 (plus fees) or Southwest for $141).There are other examples, but one is enough. Heck United is now frequently significantly cheaper to fly than Spirit.

The traveling public isn't absolutely stupid I expect Southwest load factors to take a hit in the near future -- then what does Southwest do? Answer: lower fares to be competitive.

I won't fly Spirit to save money, but I will United, American and Delta. Their low fares. will start to hurt Southwest soon.


There are still many existing nonstop routes with in the contiguous U.S. in the WN network that do not have any nonstop competition on ULCC's. WN also will not face any nonstop competition from AA, DL, or any ULCC's on its initial nonstop routes to Hawaii out of OAK, SJC, SMF, and SAN.

There are very few markets with WN service that have never been served by any ULCC's such as AMA, CRP, LBB, MAF, and ECP. In addition, DAL and MHT have never been served by any ULCC's, even though both DAL and MHT are located near airports that are served by ULCC's.

WN can actually do well in at least some of its markets without instituting basic economy fares, and WN still has competitive advantages over US3 carriers and ULCC's that stimulate demand for WN service on routes where WN competes against US3 carriers or ULCC's.
 
Austin787
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:07 pm

Ben Baldanza (Spirit's former CEO) is now in JetBlue's board. Starting Basic Economy may be the first step towards transforming JetBlue into another ULCC. Time will tell.
 
airzona11
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:16 pm

LuxuryTravelled wrote:
The only way JetBlue could be a disrupter again would be to attack premium transatantic.


Premium transatlantic is not underserved.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:20 pm

airzona11 wrote:
LuxuryTravelled wrote:
The only way JetBlue could be a disrupter again would be to attack premium transatantic.


Premium transatlantic is not underserved.



But it’s massively overpriced.
 
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neomax
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:22 pm

Austin787 wrote:
Ben Baldanza (Spirit's former CEO) is now in JetBlue's board. Starting Basic Economy may be the first step towards transforming JetBlue into another ULCC. Time will tell.


Funny to look back at when he first joined the board, people actually thought he was just going to sit back and observe with a hands off approach. Lmao, of course he was brought in to change things by slashing pax ex and increase profits, what else would the former CEO of ULCC be doing on the board of B6!? People forget that Spirit actually used to be on the upper end of airlines in terms of the experience, kind of like AirTran. It’s not entirely ridiculous to imagine B6 slowly go the ULCC route.
 
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:30 pm

Folks, keep the thread civil. Flamebait posts will be deleted per forum rules.

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IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:32 pm

heavymetal wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
heavymetal wrote:
It's a balancing act. To date, JetBlue has found out the hard way that less seats does not necessarily = more $$$, so they have changed that slightly. By all public communications, Mint appears to be paying for the floor space it takes up. I wouldn't expect JetBlue to say otherwise, but until we have better data to go off, it appears to be doing fine.


I don't understand this claim that JetBlue has less seats in their planes than the US3.
I just checked SeatGuru. JetBlue has 150 seats in their A320 version and so does Delta in A320-V1.


I never made the claim they had less seats than the US3, I was merely responding to your post that claimed the logic was simply "more seats = $$$". That's not necessarily true, it's about finding the right balance.

However, to respond to your point about seat counts, your comparison is not accurate because those seat counts you reference are not an apples-to-apples comparison. Delta's V1 has 150 seats with 12 first class seats, whereas JetBlue has 150 seats (soon to be 162) with an all-coach cabin. Delta's A320 V2 cabin has 160-seats, which I believe will eventually be the standard for all of their A320's. So not only will they have more seats than JetBlue, but they will do so while retaining a first-class cabin. If you converted first-class in the V2 layout to coach, that would yield at least 8 more-seats by simply converting doubles to triples (4 rows x 2 add'l seats per row), and then you would gain an additional 20-24 inches by re-pitching from 36 inches down to 30-31 inches. That, combined with other possible efficiencies in the cabin, would probably help get you +1 row of coach, so you would be looking at 170-175 seats.


Delta's F cabin has little of no extra pitch over exit row seats. It's a joke to call it "First Class".
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:34 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Answer: because Wanna Get Away fares WERE competitive until about two months ago. They no longer are.

We don't know yet if this trend will stick, or what form of it will stick.
https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... c-economy/
Airlines are not charging less because they want to. They are charging less because they need to. They are making less profit on these fares. The end result will be more and steeper ancillary fees.
Dieuwer wrote:
Then perhaps millennials should pay off their debts first and not fly at all.

Sure, stick your head in the sand and ignore the market. Sounds like a solid long term business plan.
https://www.travelagentcentral.com/runn ... ng-to-mmgy
 
xdlx
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:53 pm

Why is this so difficult! PREMIUM class tickets enjoy all inclusive service, bags, seats,priority boarding etc. ECONOMY class tickets includes, 1 checked bag, seat selection, 50% Refundable/Changeable fares, BASIC FARE tickets includes, NO BAG, 1CARRY ON ONLY, NO SEAT SELECTION, 100% NON REFUNDABLE
People are sensitive to price, but care less if B6 A320 has 160 seats while NK has 186.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:53 pm

heavymetal wrote:
tphuang wrote:
heavymetal wrote:

The Street has beaten down AAL for their heavy debtload, even while they toe the party line of capacity discipline. Delta can do nearly as they please because they deliver superior results in just about every metric imaginable: operational performance, financial performance, reinvesting in the business and employees, and returning capital to shareholders.

It remains to be seen whether or not the UAL expansion plan succeeds, so to say it has "succeeded" already is a tad premature. One good quarter, 2Q 2018, does not make a definitive case, especially when the year-over-year comps for United had such a low barrier that things would be much worse if they hadn't beaten them.

It will take a solid 2-3 years, minimum, to really understand if Kirby's strategy at UAL is paying off. I'm not saying it won't pay off, but to declare success already is premature.



Having the most legroom in Y and Y+ helps them generate a revenue premium, perhaps, but it also is a huge contributing factor to their higher cost per seat mile vs. relative peers like Alaska and Southwest. Based on margins alone, historically, JetBlue has not been appropriately compensated for that generous legroom. Alaska and Southwest have generally had better margins, which clearly shows that either a) JetBlue cannot control its costs, b) JetBlue isn't being paid enough of a premium for the extra legroom, or c) a combination of both.


B6 did better than AS for the 2 quarters prior to last quarter. And their fall last quarter is directly due to the facing a much higher fuel cost jump than their peers. Their revenue performance has been pretty good as I said. And is expected to be better than AS/WN in Q3. Also AS and WN have achieved their margin in large part due to network advantages they've built up through decades. B6 doesn't have any focus cities with the kind of dominance that are like ANC/SEA for AS or what WN has. The fact that they can still achieve revenue premium at BOS and JFK with no network advantage of any kind should show you how much revenue boost they get based on their reputation. Just think about how many routes that they've chased AA off in BOS/JFK.

They have to be careful to not loose that.


2 quarters does not remotely make enough of a trend. I would respond to that with 10+ years of under performance vs. AS and WN. But, let's see if the 2-quarter trend will continue, I'm willing to be proven wrong going forward. If the fall was simply due to higher fuel costs, due to them being less-hedged as you referenced in a previous post, then one can equally argue that the only reason for outperformance in the prior 2 quarters was because they weren't paying the hedging expenses like AS and WN. Can't have it both ways.

Also, you should not be giving JetBlue a pass for not "having any focus cities with the kind of dominance...", that is a decision JetBlue has strategically made that has yet to materialize in a payoff. Perhaps they should be seeking those types of markets to consistently generate superior margins.

I haven't contested that JetBlue doesn't get a marginal revenue premium, as you note in BOS/JFK. All I am saying is that it hasn't translated into superior margins, which means that the revenue premium isn't offsetting the same cost premium.

Lastly, it's "lose", not "loose" ;)


Note I only mentioned as, not wn. Wn is clearly outperforming b6 for a variety of reason.

As for not having network advantage, that’s going to be their reality of being a relatively young airline. The question should be whether or not they can get the same margin running their airline like as or wn with their current setup. They simply can’t have 50% of a large city like Seattle. That takes years to build up. And that’s something we just don’t know.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:10 pm

xdlx wrote:
Why is this so difficult! PREMIUM class tickets enjoy all inclusive service, bags, seats,priority boarding etc. ECONOMY class tickets includes, 1 checked bag, seat selection, 50% Refundable/Changeable fares, BASIC FARE tickets includes, NO BAG, 1CARRY ON ONLY, NO SEAT SELECTION, 100% NON REFUNDABLE
People are sensitive to price, but care less if B6 A320 has 160 seats while NK has 186.



This is exactly correct. They are not changing seat pitch or adding more seats.
 
airzona11
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:27 pm

fastmover wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Why is this so difficult! PREMIUM class tickets enjoy all inclusive service, bags, seats,priority boarding etc. ECONOMY class tickets includes, 1 checked bag, seat selection, 50% Refundable/Changeable fares, BASIC FARE tickets includes, NO BAG, 1CARRY ON ONLY, NO SEAT SELECTION, 100% NON REFUNDABLE
People are sensitive to price, but care less if B6 A320 has 160 seats while NK has 186.



This is exactly correct. They are not changing seat pitch or adding more seats.


It all shows up as the economy when searching for flights. Airlines need to figure that out. An everyday traveler searches for a flight on an airline, it says $100, it is not up to the consumer to then go find out all nomenclature and restrictions of the actual version of economy they might be buying. NK brands them self as the ULCC. That is why consumers who get the ULCC product on a nonULCC airline confused.
 
heavymetal
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:40 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
heavymetal wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

I don't understand this claim that JetBlue has less seats in their planes than the US3.
I just checked SeatGuru. JetBlue has 150 seats in their A320 version and so does Delta in A320-V1.


I never made the claim they had less seats than the US3, I was merely responding to your post that claimed the logic was simply "more seats = $$$". That's not necessarily true, it's about finding the right balance.

However, to respond to your point about seat counts, your comparison is not accurate because those seat counts you reference are not an apples-to-apples comparison. Delta's V1 has 150 seats with 12 first class seats, whereas JetBlue has 150 seats (soon to be 162) with an all-coach cabin. Delta's A320 V2 cabin has 160-seats, which I believe will eventually be the standard for all of their A320's. So not only will they have more seats than JetBlue, but they will do so while retaining a first-class cabin. If you converted first-class in the V2 layout to coach, that would yield at least 8 more-seats by simply converting doubles to triples (4 rows x 2 add'l seats per row), and then you would gain an additional 20-24 inches by re-pitching from 36 inches down to 30-31 inches. That, combined with other possible efficiencies in the cabin, would probably help get you +1 row of coach, so you would be looking at 170-175 seats.


Delta's F cabin has little of no extra pitch over exit row seats. It's a joke to call it "First Class".


Name aside, I'm not sure what exit row seats have to do with it. Doesn't change the fact that with 4 rows of exit seats (if you prefer that name) up front, at only 2-rows per seat, Delta has about the same number of seats as JetBlue.
 
twinotter
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:52 pm

flymia wrote:
As for removing leg room I saw that coming. So long as they are 32-inches that is all you can ask for. It is better than anyone else. Though I suspect the A220 will have 31/30 inches.


The article referenced says nothing about changing seat pitch.
 
joeblow10
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:53 pm

B6's 320s are relatively comparable in terms of seat numbers to the rest of the industry...BUT, two big things

1. The 320s don't have First Class, the legacies do - and yet B6 has the same number of seats. That means that DL/UA/AA can sell 134-138 seats just like B6, but 12-16 First Class seats at a much higher price... I would guess that this leads to fairly consistently higher yields than B6. Don't get me wrong, a number of FC seats go to upgrades - but the ones that do get sold in addition to the coach seats go for a much higher price.

2. The 321s have MANY fewer seats than the others - both in Mint and All-economy config. DL for example has 192 with First, B6 has 159 with Mint. 33 more seats, and DL still has first class? (obviously not lie-flat) - big deal when it comes to total flight yields. Especially because DL's First Class Monetization still rakes in the dough for that real estate.
Continuing...F9's A321 has 230, B6's all economy A321 has 200. Am I suggesting 28" pitch is good? Heck no... but having the ability to sell 30 more seats makes a world of difference.

These sorts of factors are why B6 is going to continue to struggle - and the continual tug between ULCC minds like Boldanza and the "luxury-low-cost" history of B6 is only going to worsen the symptoms.
Last edited by joeblow10 on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
heavymetal
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:56 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
B6's 320s are relatively comparable in terms of seat numbers to the rest of the industry...BUT, two big things

1. The 320s don't have First Class, the legacies do - and yet B6 has the same number of seats. That means that DL/UA/AA can sell 134-138 seats just like B6, but 12-16 First Class seats at a much higher price... I would guess that this leads to fairly consistently higher yields than B6. Don't get me wrong, a number of FC seats go to upgrades - but the ones that do get sold in addition to the coach seats go for a much higher price.

2. The 321s have MANY fewer seats than the others - both in Mint and All-economy config. DL for example has 192 with First, B6 has 159 with Mint. 33 more seats, and DL still has first class? (obviously not lie-flat) - big deal when it comes to total flight yields. Continuing...F9 has 230, B6's all economy has 200. Am I suggesting 28" pitch is good? Heck no... but having the ability to sell 30 more seats makes a world of difference.

These sorts of factors are why B6 is going to continue to struggle - and the continual tug between ULCC minds like Boldanza and the "luxury-low-cost" history of B6 is only going to worsen the symptoms.


This, exactly.
 
michman
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:38 pm

airzona11 wrote:
fastmover wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Why is this so difficult! PREMIUM class tickets enjoy all inclusive service, bags, seats,priority boarding etc. ECONOMY class tickets includes, 1 checked bag, seat selection, 50% Refundable/Changeable fares, BASIC FARE tickets includes, NO BAG, 1CARRY ON ONLY, NO SEAT SELECTION, 100% NON REFUNDABLE
People are sensitive to price, but care less if B6 A320 has 160 seats while NK has 186.



This is exactly correct. They are not changing seat pitch or adding more seats.


It all shows up as the economy when searching for flights. Airlines need to figure that out. An everyday traveler searches for a flight on an airline, it says $100, it is not up to the consumer to then go find out all nomenclature and restrictions of the actual version of economy they might be buying. NK brands them self as the ULCC. That is why consumers who get the ULCC product on a nonULCC airline confused.


All the major fare search sites now call out Basic Economy tickets and give you the option to upfare at checkout. A year ago, the situation was largely what you described. But that is no longer the case today.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:44 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
B6's 320s are relatively comparable in terms of seat numbers to the rest of the industry...BUT, two big things

1. The 320s don't have First Class, the legacies do - and yet B6 has the same number of seats. That means that DL/UA/AA can sell 134-138 seats just like B6, but 12-16 First Class seats at a much higher price... I would guess that this leads to fairly consistently higher yields than B6. Don't get me wrong, a number of FC seats go to upgrades - but the ones that do get sold in addition to the coach seats go for a much higher price.

2. The 321s have MANY fewer seats than the others - both in Mint and All-economy config. DL for example has 192 with First, B6 has 159 with Mint. 33 more seats, and DL still has first class? (obviously not lie-flat) - big deal when it comes to total flight yields. Especially because DL's First Class Monetization still rakes in the dough for that real estate.
Continuing...F9's A321 has 230, B6's all economy A321 has 200. Am I suggesting 28" pitch is good? Heck no... but having the ability to sell 30 more seats makes a world of difference.

These sorts of factors are why B6 is going to continue to struggle - and the continual tug between ULCC minds like Boldanza and the "luxury-low-cost" history of B6 is only going to worsen the symptoms.


1. Are you suggesting B6 immediately install First Class? Because without it, they will never get the higher yields of US3 as you claim.
2. A321 has fewer seats, but Mint is obviously more valuable than First. Only in “idiot markets” like BOS-SEA is Mint often priced BELOW F.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:00 am

Dieuwer wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The basic economy fares are being driven by millennials who on average make 20% less money than the babyboomer generation at the same age while carrying significantly more debt. As a result they can't afford the fares that older generations can afford but they are the future market. So basic economy is the way airlines are finding to attract the future generation. One survey I saw said that 27% of millennials would fly while standing if it was cheaper. Just be glad we're not there yet.


Then perhaps millennials should pay off their debts first and not fly at all.


Wow, never thought about it this way! Problem solved!
@DadCelo
 
joeblow10
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:11 am

Dieuwer wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
B6's 320s are relatively comparable in terms of seat numbers to the rest of the industry...BUT, two big things

1. The 320s don't have First Class, the legacies do - and yet B6 has the same number of seats. That means that DL/UA/AA can sell 134-138 seats just like B6, but 12-16 First Class seats at a much higher price... I would guess that this leads to fairly consistently higher yields than B6. Don't get me wrong, a number of FC seats go to upgrades - but the ones that do get sold in addition to the coach seats go for a much higher price.

2. The 321s have MANY fewer seats than the others - both in Mint and All-economy config. DL for example has 192 with First, B6 has 159 with Mint. 33 more seats, and DL still has first class? (obviously not lie-flat) - big deal when it comes to total flight yields. Especially because DL's First Class Monetization still rakes in the dough for that real estate.
Continuing...F9's A321 has 230, B6's all economy A321 has 200. Am I suggesting 28" pitch is good? Heck no... but having the ability to sell 30 more seats makes a world of difference.

These sorts of factors are why B6 is going to continue to struggle - and the continual tug between ULCC minds like Boldanza and the "luxury-low-cost" history of B6 is only going to worsen the symptoms.


1. Are you suggesting B6 immediately install First Class? Because without it, they will never get the higher yields of US3 as you claim.
2. A321 has fewer seats, but Mint is obviously more valuable than First. Only in “idiot markets” like BOS-SEA is Mint often priced BELOW F.


I guess I have a couple larger points/suggestions.

1. Not first class, but I do believe a reduction in seat pitch is probably necessary. 12 more seats might not seem like a lot, but at least that slightly narrows the yield gap created by the FC product on the legacies. Even if they added just one row, that’s still better than nothing imo.

2. Mint is no doubt more valuable, but FC isn’t selling for cheap either - what that creates is a much smaller yield value creation for B6 based on Mint. 33 less seats to have a space consuming premium product isn’t worth it on most all routes. I have little doubt 192 seats with 20 FC on DL’s 321 is much better yielding than 159 w 16 Mint on JBLU

In the long run, I’d expect B6 to wake up and smell the coffee. 33-34 standard pitch unfortunately won’t cut it in today’s price driven industry. That could at least reduce both problems I see: they keep Mint but add a row or two of extra seats (or 2-3 on non mint confirms) - it still creates a gap, but it at least narrows it. They’re a great company to fly on, but I for one would doubt it remains status quo for much longer
 
Dieuwer
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:18 am

United was forced by JetBlue to introduce flatbeds at SFO TCONs. Their yields must thus have plummeted too, as they had to rip out a row or two to do so...
I mean, you can’t have it both ways. Either you have a luxurious front cabin taking up valuable real estate, or you don’t.
 
joeblow10
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:28 am

Totally agree...

But B6 tries to have it about 4 different ways :lol:

From Even More Space, to Mint, to B6 Economy with equal or better legroom to the legacies' "premium domestic economy"... they can't make up their mind. And then they've got two very different forces pulling on them: Boldanza and Wall Street, and the loyal and amenity-demanding customers.

You're right, they're going to have to pick one side or another... not 4 at once
 
Dieuwer
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:32 am

An easy start would be to start charging extra for the Mint “Throne Seats”.
 
KentB27
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:55 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
SW has the advantage of 4 generations of Americans assuming they are the low cost leader. That advantage buys them a lot of leeway in pricing as we have seen but it will diminish over time. A new entry would get crushed right off the bat.


There is a lot of truth to that. I know so many people who just "assume" that Southwest is the cheapest option and don't even bother shopping around and comparing fares with other carriers. More often than not these days I find that Southwest is not the cheapest option anymore.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:16 am

B6 has no advantage and will either be bought out or will need to merge. F9, G4, NK, AS, and HA all have their niche products with niche markets and do just fine while WN, AA, DL, and UA all have large networks, large fleets, and a product that works for them. B6 is the ugly duckling, their product, fleet, routes, and pricing is all over the place. It worked when they were that nice little airline with free TV, free blue chips, 34 inches of legroom, free checked bag, and low fares. Now they are growing without a plan for the future and it's showing with their aging fleet, no pattern route network, and "acting like an ULCC while offering full service amenities".
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
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flyer1225
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:49 am

janders wrote:
JetBlue Airways Corp. will offer its own version of a basic economy fare, saying its “success is at risk” if it doesn’t match the discounted, no-extras tickets being sold by larger rivals.

The change will be part of a broader shakeup of JetBlue’s fare system that will debut next year, President Joanna Geraghty told airline employees in a message Friday.

“At JetBlue, we never liked the ‘no frills’ approach,” Geraghty said. But “customer behavior suggests our success is at risk if we do not disrupt this market by lowering fares without sacrificing the experience.”


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... fare-class

Yet again another example that price trumps service in eyes of bulk of consumers.


B6 does earn some respect points for itself by being frank about the necessity about doing this in the face of harsh competition, and not spewing BS about "improving the passenger experience" as the primary reason for the switch. No doubt they'll have to do that for the official PR rollout of the program, but it's nice to see some accountability about their rationale.
6E/9W/AA/AF/AI/AS/B6/BA/DJ/DL/EK/FL/HA/IC/IT/JQ/LH/LX/OS/QF/S2/SG/UA/US/VS/VX/WN
 
Chemist
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:58 am

Jet Boo
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:06 am

One of those “die a hero or live as the villain” moments. If introducing basic economy won’t save JetBlue, what will make their product more appealing?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:19 am

tphuang wrote:
Having the most legroom in Y and Y+ helps them generate revenue premium in BOS and JFK. They'd risk loosing that revenue premium if they back away from it.


They may generate a revenue premium on some routes but they certainly don't systemwide.

B6 PRASM, 2Q18, $.1227

U.S. industry, $.1467 (and that's including the bottom-feeders)

https://seekingalpha.com/article/420860 ... ine?page=2
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:26 am

This is why I said in the FAA re-authorization bill thread that the government needed to step in and limit seat size. If you have no building codes, you end up with a nasty dangerous uncomfortable ghetto. This race to the bottom won't stop without a bottom.

I like that idea of charging extra for the solo mint cubicles. I would also say they have far too many EMS seats in the cabins. Half of them could be removed to make room for a extra row. Too many people just don't pick a seat and hope to score a EMS seat for free anyways on full flights.

The new refurbished 320's don't even have a window in the last row (maybe even the two last rows, I forget). Perfect for this new frontier style class.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:39 am

Southwest I think can hold out. They have such a fan base and people know they get more for the fares. It's hard for any other airline to do that. I know so many people who will only fly Southwest , they are just sick of the us3 and lcc way of being treated. Southwest gets higher fares on alot of routes is rarely see them being the lowest. You just know your getting alot more for the price.
 
bpat777
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:08 am

airliner371 wrote:
dbo861 wrote:
I love Southwest's "Transfarency" policy, but I really don't think it's going to last forever.

People have been saying this for over a decade now and bags (<- plural) still fly free. Not saying it won't happen, but there's no indication it will at the moment, the airline is producing near-record profits.

JetBlue's issue is they aren't doing so hot. They're profitable, quite profitable, but they have plenty of room to do better. At the end of the day, JetBlue is a leisure-centric airline whether they like it or not, and leisure travelers are price sensitive. And yes, Southwest is leisure-centric too, but I think you'd be surprised how many business travelers fly Southwest... particularly small and "hipster" businesses.


Your last sentence is very accurate. A lot of media businesses in particular take advantage of the free bags and no chg fees.
 
planecane
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:44 am

dbo861 wrote:
enilria wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

My guess is Southwest will need to follow suit. Right now it's Wanna Get Away prices are nowhere near competitive with deep discount carriers (for example, I can fly from Dallas to Chicago on United for $51 (plus fees) or Southwest for $141).There are other examples, but one is enough. Heck United is now frequently significantly cheaper to fly than Spirit.

The traveling public isn't absolutely stupid I expect Southwest load factors to take a hit in the near future -- then what does Southwest do? Answer: lower fares to be competitive.

I won't fly Spirit to save money, but I will United, American and Delta. Their low fares. will start to hurt Southwest soon.

Very hard for WN to match as there is no seat assignment to begin with. This puts WN in quite a hole.


I've thought about this. Not that I'm advocating it, but Southwest could add their own version of Basic Economy. I could see them adding a D boarding group for those who purchase the Basic economy ticket. Get rid of free bags, no change fees, and free cancelation for those in this fare group.

I love Southwest's "Transfarency" policy, but I really don't think it's going to last forever.


Why does Southwest need to do any of this. From a wall street perspective they have the 2nd highest earnings per share to UAL and 2nd highest market cap to DAL. They don't provide their fares to the travel search engines so they don't have to worry about the "sort by price" comparison. Their entire brand is based on 2 free checked bags and no change fees. If they remove that differentiator, they are likely to lose more revenue than they gain. I put up with no assigned seat because I don't get nickel and dimed. Even if the fare is a little higher, I have the freedom to bring 2 checked bags without adding to my cost. If my plans change after booking I don't have to worry about getting gouged.

Why would somebody like me continue to pay more to fly southwest if they start charging for those things? Some kind of "D" group makes no sense. The legacies adding basic economy are doing it because the search engines were displaying their economy fare along side Spirit's fare which barely includes a seat cushion. The search and click the lowest price customer isn't going to southwest.com to check their fare separately. If southwest starts adding bag/change fees, they'd better go to assigned seating also. At that point, they'd be "just another airline" offering the same thing on a plane with a different livery.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:55 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Southwest I think can hold out. They have such a fan base and people know they get more for the fares. It's hard for any other airline to do that. I know so many people who will only fly Southwest , they are just sick of the us3 and lcc way of being treated. Southwest gets higher fares on alot of routes is rarely see them being the lowest. You just know your getting alot more for the price.


Agreed, while there are plenty of time I've gotten the cheapest flight available from WN I've also booked them at time when they're more expensive based on the fact I know what I'm getting with them. B6 is fine when everything is going well but when it isn't it is probably the worst airline you could find.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:15 am

I’m not really sure this is that big of a deal. Like all carriers, they aren’t operating in a vacuum so need to evolve with the market. Some of the comments, though come off a bit like the kid who used to go to the rich kid school but now is at the other school. He’s looking around lamenting that he has to hang with the commoners - newsflash: you ARE one of the commoners now.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Chemist
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:00 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Southwest I think can hold out. They have such a fan base and people know they get more for the fares. It's hard for any other airline to do that. I know so many people who will only fly Southwest , they are just sick of the us3 and lcc way of being treated. Southwest gets higher fares on alot of routes is rarely see them being the lowest. You just know your getting alot more for the price.


Absolutely. I just did a cross country rt this week and chose WN with a connection over AA nonstop. And I'm a lifetime AA gold.
I had really exemplary WN crews on all 4 flights. Really service-oriented FAs. I get points that actually can be redeemed. I had a long connection and walked over to a random WN gate and asked the agent for a standby on an earlier flight and within 10 seconds I got an earlier flight boarding pass with a smile. I like to reward service instead of nickel-and-diming.

When I search for flights, the two airlines that I immediately rule out are Spirit and Frontier. They are not in cosideration at any price.
 
Chemist
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:02 am

Chemist wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Southwest I think can hold out. They have such a fan base and people know they get more for the fares. It's hard for any other airline to do that. I know so many people who will only fly Southwest , they are just sick of the us3 and lcc way of being treated. Southwest gets higher fares on alot of routes is rarely see them being the lowest. You just know your getting alot more for the price.


Absolutely. I just did a cross country rt this week and chose WN with a connection over AA nonstop. And I'm a lifetime AA gold.
I had really exemplary WN crews on all 4 flights. Really service-oriented FAs. I get points that actually can be redeemed. I had a long connection and walked over to a random WN gate and asked the agent for a standby on an earlier flight and within 10 seconds I got an earlier flight boarding pass with a smile. I like to reward service instead of nickel-and-diming.

When I search for flights, the two airlines that I immediately rule out are Spirit and Frontier. They are not in consideration at any price.
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:31 am

I think you guys are freaking out over nothing, actually I know you are. I’m sitting here looking at the memo. It doesn’t say we are changing seat pitch, it doesn’t say we are making people sit in a bad section of the plane, it doesn’t say we are adding more seats. It literally says it’s just a different fare bucket with a few less options, like picking a seat or being able to cancel. You still get all of the jetblue inflight service. They mention a few times about not making people feel like second class passangers. They are pretty much changing the fare options. You want more you pay more you want less you pay less or there is the middle ground. A few years ago when fare options came out it was the end of jetblue, yet it wasn’t, mint was introduced it will never work, yet it did. Times change and you must adapt to the market, they would be stupid not to.

The route structure is fine for what jetblue is, an airline that was built around flying New Yorkers to some vacation spot, that is still what they do. They don’t try to fly to every city or have tons of flights between city’s. The fleet is fine with literally two airplane types, one will be retired and replaced with a much better platform. While the fares maybe different outside once you are in the plane everyone gets free snacks, drinks, Internet and TV so the product is not a mess. I’m sorry I grow tired of the never ending jetblue must merge or they will die, or the little airline will be gone soon. That has been said for many years yet here we are.

Look they see they can do better so they admit it and are trying to fix it. They might have to trim underperforming city’s but what airline doesn’t. I guess this is just something else they can do to remain competitive which is what any company should do.
 
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adambrau
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:53 am

Dieuwer wrote:
United was forced by JetBlue to introduce flatbeds at SFO TCONs. Their yields must thus have plummeted too, as they had to rip out a row or two to do so...
I mean, you can’t have it both ways. Either you have a luxurious front cabin taking up valuable real estate, or you don’t.


Just a quick fact check:

UA had finished installing flat bed domestic business seats from JFK to SFO and LAX in 2013, before Mint was even installed on one operational aircraft.

I believe UA's yields to SFO and LAX are higher than all carriers NYC-SFO because they gave up JFK and moved everything to EWR where they face little transcon competition. As opposed to AA/DL/JB fighting against each other at JFK. Yes UA lost corporate contracts by leaving JFK but its business fares are higher. UA also has approximately 13 flight EWR-SFO while JetBlue has 6 (checking a random day in October).

Am I wrong?

Adam
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
questions
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:50 am

flymia wrote:
There are no longer much choice in airlines. It is all the same garbage at this point other than Southwest.


Hence, along with business flyers who have no choice, why people choose the lowest fare. Airlines blame the customer for wanting lowest fare over anything else. In reality, airlines treat their customers like the enemy and have poor product/service offerings thereby driving the customer to select based on price... why pay any more for “garbage”?

Airlines negotiate corporate contracts. C suite executives receive perks, e.g., UA Global Services status, as part of the deal. CFO is happy for the negotiated rates. Employees have to fly the cheapest coach fare per policy. Airlines have no incentive to offer anything better... or to treat the customer better. The “customer”, i.e., corporate executive who signs the contract, demands the lowest price.
 
questions
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:55 am

fastmover wrote:
I think you guys are freaking out over nothing, actually I know you are. I’m sitting here looking at the memo...


Does it say anything about acquiring Alaska?
 
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adambrau
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:09 am

flymia wrote:
There are no longer much choice in airlines. It is all the same garbage at this point other than Southwest.


I would happily take any of the US3, or Jetblue, NYC to SFO or LAX than Southwest. While they are all safe, I'd prefer a nonstop. And while I might not be looking for the least expensive option, and Southwest may stand out on many fronts, we all pretty much enjoy wifi, entertainment, and competitive fares where competition still exists. Our aviation infrastructure is garbage, will agree there!
Let's keep the skies friendly.

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