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2175301
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:22 am

KentB27 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
SW has the advantage of 4 generations of Americans assuming they are the low cost leader. That advantage buys them a lot of leeway in pricing as we have seen but it will diminish over time. A new entry would get crushed right off the bat.


There is a lot of truth to that. I know so many people who just "assume" that Southwest is the cheapest option and don't even bother shopping around and comparing fares with other carriers. More often than not these days I find that Southwest is not the cheapest option anymore.


I believe that you are wrong.

I fly Southwest almost exclusively now (80 % or so of my travel). If they are going where I want and have a schedule that is OK - I don't even look at anyone else. I only have a frequent flyer number with SW now.

Neither I nor any of the people I talk to on my SW flights believe that SW is the cheapest option. In general we believe that SW provides decent consistent service at a reasonable price. I almost always have 2 checked bags as my carry-on is full of medical equipment and supplies (and some food).

Prior to SW my preferred airline was Midwest. Sad to see it go... and I gladly paid for its service (which would be considered business class on some of the majors).

Have a great day,
 
Etheereal
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:24 am

lightsaber wrote:
Unfortunately, the search engines for coach only highlight basic economy. Until the airlines start offering a comparison with amenities, the search have become worthless for anyone looking for more than Y- but not business.

Sadly, they must put more seats (reduce pitch) as that is what the market demands.

Lightsaber

Indeed, as long as pax pay to be treated as cattle, it shall continue.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:49 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Having the most legroom in Y and Y+ helps them generate revenue premium in BOS and JFK. They'd risk loosing that revenue premium if they back away from it.


They may generate a revenue premium on some routes but they certainly don't systemwide.

B6 PRASM, 2Q18, $.1227

U.S. industry, $.1467 (and that's including the bottom-feeders)

https://seekingalpha.com/article/420860 ... ine?page=2


US3 will always have a revenue advantage over B6 due to their network advantages. It's more relevant to compare routes where they have similar network situation. Being a young airline, they are left with the network that they have. They don't have a choice of getting fortress hub at CLT. Also, their domestic stage length is longer than most airlines, which reduces PRASM numbers.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Southwest I think can hold out. They have such a fan base and people know they get more for the fares. It's hard for any other airline to do that. I know so many people who will only fly Southwest , they are just sick of the us3 and lcc way of being treated. Southwest gets higher fares on alot of routes is rarely see them being the lowest. You just know your getting alot more for the price.

i think so too. Being the only airline that doesn't charge for bag fees, change fees and basic economy allows you to stand out. If there are 2 or 3 airlines like that, the less well known one looses out.

joeblow10 wrote:
Totally agree...

But B6 tries to have it about 4 different ways :lol:

From Even More Space, to Mint, to B6 Economy with equal or better legroom to the legacies' "premium domestic economy"... they can't make up their mind. And then they've got two very different forces pulling on them: Boldanza and Wall Street, and the loyal and amenity-demanding customers.

You're right, they're going to have to pick one side or another... not 4 at once


The influence of Ben is overrated again. They were going to go this way regardless. They talked about how they are studying it for several quarters now. And then AS said they were introducing BE also. Unfortunately, the writing was on the wall. Remember, this is the same management that started baggage fees and cabin densification project. They introduce one major customer unfriendly movement per investor day.

As for the rest, their goal is pretty clear. To have a better experience than legacies while having lower cost. That's why mint is printing money. That's why they do well at competitive places like BOS/JFK/FLL. They don't have the low cost to try to match ULCC despite what people are saying here. They can't go ULCC route. They'd die that way.

joeblow10 wrote:
1. Not first class, but I do believe a reduction in seat pitch is probably necessary. 12 more seats might not seem like a lot, but at least that slightly narrows the yield gap created by the FC product on the legacies. Even if they added just one row, that’s still better than nothing imo.

they are adding 12 to A320, which keeps their pitch as industry leading while improves the cabin quite a bit. Pretty good way to go.

2. Mint is no doubt more valuable, but FC isn’t selling for cheap either - what that creates is a much smaller yield value creation for B6 based on Mint. 33 less seats to have a space consuming premium product isn’t worth it on most all routes. I have little doubt 192 seats with 20 FC on DL’s 321 is much better yielding than 159 w 16 Mint on JBLU

In the long run, I’d expect B6 to wake up and smell the coffee. 33-34 standard pitch unfortunately won’t cut it in today’s price driven industry. That could at least reduce both problems I see: they keep Mint but add a row or two of extra seats (or 2-3 on non mint confirms) - it still creates a gap, but it at least narrows it. They’re a great company to fly on, but I for one would doubt it remains status quo for much longer


Mint is making boat load of money. They are generating yield premium on routes where legacies have huge network advantage over B6. Remember, one of the reason mint has 159 seat is because they can get away with just 4 FAs. On similar premium configured flight like DL B757, DL has 5 FAs.

Why do you want to kill the golden goose?
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:18 am

From what I've seen, JetBlue are shrinking pitch to 32" in the standard seats. That's still the best legroom amongst all US carriers in standard seats, and so I don't think its reasonable to think "OMG JETBLUE WILL BECOME SPIRIT WE'RE ALL DOOOOOMED" as a result. The Even More Space seats still have more legroom than the legacy carriers' main cabin plus/extra/etc, and some even have more legroom than domestic first class on at least some planes.

Not to mention, pretty much every airline is unbundling fares and creating tiered economy fares so that you can only pay for what you actually use. I don't see this as necessarily a ULCC move, because its not changing the onboard part of things. They're still keeping their passenger experience better than the competition.

When they lose their legroom advantage and start charging for basic snacks and drinks, it will be fair to say that JetBlue Is Dead. But right now? Its a few modest changes that don't sacrifice their key competitive advantage.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:45 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
People say one thing about airlines and services when you ask them, but they do book a very different way.

CONGRATS, you figured out what airlines have known for the last few decades.

Now if only a few thousand more AvGeeks could recognize reality in similar fashion......


Dieuwer wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The basic economy fares are being driven by millennials who on average make 20% less money than the babyboomer generation at the same age while carrying significantly more debt. As a result they can't afford the fares that older generations can afford but they are the future market. So basic economy is the way airlines are finding to attract the future generation. One survey I saw said that 27% of millennials would fly while standing if it was cheaper. Just be glad we're not there yet.

Then perhaps millennials should pay off their debts first and not fly at all.

Or perhaps Baby Boomers shouldn't have left them, and the last of the Gen-Xers, with such a shitty society that they have to acquire such debt just to meet even entry-level requirements for most high-paying occupations.

Despite morons' perception that the stock market is a depiction of economic health; compensation hasn't matched productivity in the USA since 1973..... and that engineering/law/medical/journalism/masters degree ain't going to be paid by working a side-hustle like granddad did back in the day.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
many321
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:03 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
airbazar wrote:
The basic economy fares are being driven by millennials who on average make 20% less money than the babyboomer generation at the same age while carrying significantly more debt. As a result they can't afford the fares that older generations can afford but they are the future market. So basic economy is the way airlines are finding to attract the future generation. One survey I saw said that 27% of millennials would fly while standing if it was cheaper. Just be glad we're not there yet.

Then perhaps millennials should pay off their debts first and not fly at all.

Or perhaps Baby Boomers shouldn't have left them, and the last of the Gen-Xers, with such a shitty society that they have to acquire such debt just to meet even entry-level requirements for most high-paying occupations.

Despite morons' perception that the stock market is a depiction of economic health; compensation hasn't matched productivity in the USA since 1973..... and that engineering/law/medical/journalism/masters degree ain't going to be paid by working a side-hustle like granddad did back in the day.


Well said. As a millennial and having experienced this first hand, I totally agree with your statement.
 
SteelChair
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:05 pm

A sign of weakness by JetBlue. IMO they will not survive as an independent carrier in the long term.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:03 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
One of those “die a hero or live as the villain” moments. If introducing basic economy won’t save JetBlue, what will make their product more appealing?


It doesn't help that they waited to long to start refreshing their a320 interiors. Their hard product on a majority of their routes is looking extremely tired. Especially when other legacy airlines like DL are doubling down on cabin refreshes.
A:320/21, 333, 343, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 763, 772 || MD80, MD90 || E:145, 170, 175, 190, 195 || CR200, 700, 900
 
fastmover
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:18 pm

questions wrote:
fastmover wrote:
I think you guys are freaking out over nothing, actually I know you are. I’m sitting here looking at the memo...


Does it say anything about acquiring Alaska?




Oh yeah I forgot that part......no not a word about that. :)
 
MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:38 pm

SteelChair wrote:
A sign of weakness by JetBlue. IMO they will not survive as an independent carrier in the long term.


JetBlue certainly hasn't been able to get enough people to pay a premium for the product (free wifi, AVOD, seat pitch). Whether that's a sign of weakness (marketing, the wrong product bundle) or simply of the market (LAX772LR's argument that people just won't pay for a premium product) is a question that's not answered.

Maybe you would like to offer an expansive fact-and-reason-based argument?
 
airzona11
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:27 pm

questions wrote:
flymia wrote:
There are no longer much choice in airlines. It is all the same garbage at this point other than Southwest.


Hence, along with business flyers who have no choice, why people choose the lowest fare. Airlines blame the customer for wanting lowest fare over anything else. In reality, airlines treat their customers like the enemy and have poor product/service offerings thereby driving the customer to select based on price... why pay any more for “garbage”?

Airlines negotiate corporate contracts. C suite executives receive perks, e.g., UA Global Services status, as part of the deal. CFO is happy for the negotiated rates. Employees have to fly the cheapest coach fare per policy. Airlines have no incentive to offer anything better... or to treat the customer better. The “customer”, i.e., corporate executive who signs the contract, demands the lowest price.


Great points. "We used to just bundle the garbage, now we need you to pay for it"
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
A sign of weakness by JetBlue. IMO they will not survive as an independent carrier in the long term.


What a bold prediction.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Bradin
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:21 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
A sign of weakness by JetBlue. IMO they will not survive as an independent carrier in the long term.


What a bold prediction.


Bold - perhaps, but not without merit. From a business case study standpoint, I am asking myself "what differentiates Jetblue's product vs United/American/Delta's product"? At this point, I'm not finding a whole lot that separates them. The business strategy is starting to closely align to what United/American/Delta has to offer - and that hurts the Jetblue brand and viability in the long run.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:27 pm

Turnhouse1 wrote:
The other downside of this is that many corporate policies mandate 'cheapest' over any other criteria. Therefore people flying on business will have to book this. Which is bad for the passenger stuck in a middle seat, and potentially bad for JetBlue as they might have paid a bit more, though I suppose if they just flew another carrier basic economy because it was cheaper then JetBlue are benefiting.


No, corporate travellers will not. Many corporate booking policies have these fares barred and not available to be displayed for employees on business travel. My company does not allow us to book these type no frill fares and we are not even allowed to travel in business class for any trip of any length.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:37 pm

Bradin wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
A sign of weakness by JetBlue. IMO they will not survive as an independent carrier in the long term.


What a bold prediction.


Bold - perhaps, but not without merit. From a business case study standpoint, I am asking myself "what differentiates Jetblue's product vs United/American/Delta's product"? At this point, I'm not finding a whole lot that separates them. The business strategy is starting to closely align to what United/American/Delta has to offer - and that hurts the Jetblue brand and viability in the long run.


I was being sarcastic.

This is all just the normal evolution in the industry. I hope JetBlue can hold the line on morphing into something else because we need options and variety. But margins rule the day - so be it.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:20 pm

So if they are gonna offer same pitch as regular coach, same free drinks/snacks, wifi/tv on these cheaper tickets, why are people going to bother with the higher priced tickets at all?? where is the savings or opportunity to up-sell the customer that buys the bottom basement ticket? Saying you are going to offer the same ticket price as Spirit, but give the customer more room/food/drink/tv/wifi/service , yeah sure the customer is going to pick you. But HOW are you going to stay in business giving the farm away to ULCC customers at ULCC prices????

They just need to merge already and realize economy of scale for their stock holders.
 
Bradin
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:00 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
So if they are gonna offer same pitch as regular coach, same free drinks/snacks, wifi/tv on these cheaper tickets, why are people going to bother with the higher priced tickets at all?? where is the savings or opportunity to up-sell the customer that buys the bottom basement ticket? Saying you are going to offer the same ticket price as Spirit, but give the customer more room/food/drink/tv/wifi/service , yeah sure the customer is going to pick you. But HOW are you going to stay in business giving the farm away to ULCC customers at ULCC prices????

They just need to merge already and realize economy of scale for their stock holders.


In MBA strategy classes, they typically teach you about business strategy. It isn't always about price. It isn't always about hardware specs. It is sometimes about value proposition.

Good examples of value proposition would be is Apple and Southwest. They don't play the price game, but they do price their products and services competitively.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:16 pm

I don't see how this will help Jetblue financials.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:32 pm

Bradin wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
A sign of weakness by JetBlue. IMO they will not survive as an independent carrier in the long term.


What a bold prediction.


Bold - perhaps, but not without merit. From a business case study standpoint, I am asking myself "what differentiates Jetblue's product vs United/American/Delta's product"? At this point, I'm not finding a whole lot that separates them. The business strategy is starting to closely align to what United/American/Delta has to offer - and that hurts the Jetblue brand and viability in the long run.

Let’s see,

Free high speed WiFi.
More leg room at every class.
100 channels of satellite tv on every seat
Widest seats in economy class

And more importantly, they offer it at far lower cost than legacy airlines. If they get same yield as a legacy airline, then they are making boatload of money.
 
Bradin
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:17 pm

tphuang wrote:
Bradin wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

What a bold prediction.


Bold - perhaps, but not without merit. From a business case study standpoint, I am asking myself "what differentiates Jetblue's product vs United/American/Delta's product"? At this point, I'm not finding a whole lot that separates them. The business strategy is starting to closely align to what United/American/Delta has to offer - and that hurts the Jetblue brand and viability in the long run.

Let’s see,

Free high speed WiFi.
More leg room at every class.
100 channels of satellite tv on every seat
Widest seats in economy class

And more importantly, they offer it at far lower cost than legacy airlines. If they get same yield as a legacy airline, then they are making boatload of money.


At present, I am thinking that A.netters would know about the leg room and seat width. The average traveller may or may not even notice however there is evidence to suggest people are gaining awareness of it.

As for entertainment, I do believe American, Delta and United all have either GogoInflight Entertainment or DirecTV being offered.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/exp ... inment.jsp?
https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US ... eo/tv.html
https://www.united.com/CMS/en-US/travel ... RECTV.aspx

The only real consumer grade differentiation is the complementary WiFi - and that benefit is diluted depending if the customer has a way to get complementary WiFi through elite status or similar rewards program like an AMEX platinum card. Factor in considerations such as business/consultants who travel - we don't mind paying for WiFi because we expense it to our employers.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:08 pm

tphuang wrote:
Bradin wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

What a bold prediction.


Bold - perhaps, but not without merit. From a business case study standpoint, I am asking myself "what differentiates Jetblue's product vs United/American/Delta's product"? At this point, I'm not finding a whole lot that separates them. The business strategy is starting to closely align to what United/American/Delta has to offer - and that hurts the Jetblue brand and viability in the long run.

Let’s see,

Free high speed WiFi.
More leg room at every class.
100 channels of satellite tv on every seat
Widest seats in economy class

And more importantly, they offer it at far lower cost than legacy airlines. If they get same yield as a legacy airline, then they are making boatload of money.


I don’t think there’s any question that JetBlue offers a great onboard product. The point is that as they continue to do things such as reduce pitch, add fees, and devalue the product (referencing your comments about quarterly announcements), and as they face both mounting cost pressures from the normal maturing of their operation alongside strengthened competition from the big 4 carriers, will JetBlue continue to stand out or will they gradually morph into a smaller, slightly better version of everyone else?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Turnhouse1
Posts: 195
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:17 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:
The other downside of this is that many corporate policies mandate 'cheapest' over any other criteria. Therefore people flying on business will have to book this. Which is bad for the passenger stuck in a middle seat, and potentially bad for JetBlue as they might have paid a bit more, though I suppose if they just flew another carrier basic economy because it was cheaper then JetBlue are benefiting.


No, corporate travellers will not. Many corporate booking policies have these fares barred and not available to be displayed for employees on business travel. My company does not allow us to book these type no frill fares and we are not even allowed to travel in business class for any trip of any length.


I can assure you my (a large FTSE company) employer did the maths a few years back and worked out that it was cheaper to throw a few non-flex tickets in the bin than for everyone to book full Y (or J for long haul) ergo we now book cheapest available or face the spanish inquisition. Most people can actually get on their booked plane if you push them.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:54 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Bradin wrote:

Bold - perhaps, but not without merit. From a business case study standpoint, I am asking myself "what differentiates Jetblue's product vs United/American/Delta's product"? At this point, I'm not finding a whole lot that separates them. The business strategy is starting to closely align to what United/American/Delta has to offer - and that hurts the Jetblue brand and viability in the long run.

Let’s see,

Free high speed WiFi.
More leg room at every class.
100 channels of satellite tv on every seat
Widest seats in economy class

And more importantly, they offer it at far lower cost than legacy airlines. If they get same yield as a legacy airline, then they are making boatload of money.


I don’t think there’s any question that JetBlue offers a great onboard product. The point is that as they continue to do things such as reduce pitch, add fees, and devalue the product (referencing your comments about quarterly announcements), and as they face both mounting cost pressures from the normal maturing of their operation alongside strengthened competition from the big 4 carriers, will JetBlue continue to stand out or will they gradually morph into a smaller, slightly better version of everyone else?

That's certainly something we will have to see. I think what we've seen so far is that they are willing to lower their product to just being better than US3, but not lower than that. You are kind of seeing the same moves by AS. They need to have some pluses in this products in order to maintain revenue advantages vs Delta at SEA/BOS. B6 has tremendous loyalty in NYC. Just to give an example, they generate higher yield on JFK-CLT than AA. And they get this due to the reputation they have as offering superior product to legacies. So they have managed to dominate leisure routes out of NYC. If they had more slots at LGA and flew to London, I think they'd be able to get a large share of the corporate pie too. This is in spite of all the network and OTP issues they have.

Now if they loose that advantage, they are going to loose that revenue advantage. And they don't have the cost structure of NK/F9 to compete against ULCC. That would be insanity. But I do see them keep finding ways to cut costs. Reality is they don't have fortress hubs like ATL/CLT to make loads of money while burning them in JFK. They have to keep cost 25% lower than DL/AA, while get similar or better yield out of JFK on non-legacy hub routes. You see that with AS also, they get similar or better yield than DL on so many routes out of SEA. If you have yield advantage over legacies, then you can't cheapen your product too much or else you will loose your primary hubs.
 
Jerseyguy
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:34 am

My preferred carrier is Southwest but I'm not one who doesn't check fares on other carriers, but I also make sure that I add in the value of the stuff that other carriers charge for 1 checked bag (which the way things are going wouldn't surprise me if it became $75-$100 RT soon), the no change fee I value at $35-45RT, there is always the factor of the difference in basic economy vs regular economy). Also when I make my decision who to fly I always make the US3 my last choice because without meaningful competition they would dramatically raise fares. When Scott Kirby says he thinks fares should double I believe him and wonder what he isn't saying publicly.

I work for a major big box store and I understand how corporate provides incentives to provide the least amount of customer service necessary while making the maximum profit. In my store the floors are chronically understaffed because Assistant Managers get bonuses for coming under the budget for payroll. Things were so bad one night a department head was the only person in 4 departments and its not unusual for there to be at least 1-2 departments without coverage. BUT, the customers don't have much of a choice, internet ordering is not as big of a thing in my segment of retail. So in my mind competition is vital.

Recently I've had to fly American because I was spending a VDB voucher and trying not to spend way to much while using my voucher has been painful with the $50 differences in BE vs RE and the seat selection fees in regular economy if I didn't want a middle seat in the last 3 rows of the plane another reason to fly Southwest, even with no assigned seating I'm still likely to get a decent seat even without paying extra for EB.
 
Bradin
Posts: 362
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:38 am

Adding fuel to the fire that Jetblue may be lacking product differentiation

Delta CEO Declares Free In-Flight Wi-Fi Is Coming
https://skift.com/2018/09/28/delta-ceo- ... is-coming/

Cross Link to A.net discussion: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405087
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:08 am

AEROFAN wrote:
Turnhouse1 wrote:
The other downside of this is that many corporate policies mandate 'cheapest' over any other criteria. Therefore people flying on business will have to book this. Which is bad for the passenger stuck in a middle seat, and potentially bad for JetBlue as they might have paid a bit more, though I suppose if they just flew another carrier basic economy because it was cheaper then JetBlue are benefiting.


No, corporate travellers will not. Many corporate booking policies have these fares barred and not available to be displayed for employees on business travel. My company does not allow us to book these type no frill fares and we are not even allowed to travel in business class for any trip of any length.


Your company should be pissed at basic economy then. Your company is now paying a premium $15-$30 ore more per flight for its employees to board in a reasonable group and pick a seat!

Two things that cost the airlines nothing, now have a fee.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:38 am

A service doesn't have to cost the provider something in order to have value.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2523
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:54 pm

flymia wrote:
Two things that cost the airlines nothing, now have a fee.

PlanesNTrains wrote:
A service doesn't have to cost the provider something in order to have value


There are quite a few things airlines charge for, that don't cost them anything
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:04 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
A service doesn't have to cost the provider something in order to have value.


Picking a seat? The ticket holder will be on a seat regardless, this is about picking one.

Bordering in a normal time with others in your rows. The ticket holder will need to get on the airplane regardless.

These two things a sham, and its a fee being added onto the normal economy ticket. They will add a few things here and there like a small change fee or what not. At the end of the day tickets prices will remain the same with a premium to select a seat and board normally for 95% of the passengers.

Race to the bottom. That is all it is.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1726
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:22 pm

Bradin wrote:
Adding fuel to the fire that Jetblue may be lacking product differentiation

Delta CEO Declares Free In-Flight Wi-Fi Is Coming
https://skift.com/2018/09/28/delta-ceo- ... is-coming/

Cross Link to A.net discussion: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405087
Intersting. DL has been the most aggressive in BOS. If DL is able to match B6's product, will they be able to make more inroads in BOS considering their large network advantage?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:25 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Adding fuel to the fire that Jetblue may be lacking product differentiation

Delta CEO Declares Free In-Flight Wi-Fi Is Coming
https://skift.com/2018/09/28/delta-ceo- ... is-coming/

Cross Link to A.net discussion: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405087
Intersting. DL has been the most aggressive in BOS. If DL is able to match B6's product, will they be able to make more inroads in BOS considering their large network advantage?


B6 has more than just free WiFi. It also has satellite tv on every seat, more pitch at every seat and wider seats. This is even after cabin reconfigure on a320.

The normal y seat on a321 mint has as much pitch as y+ on legacy airlines. Normal y+ seat on a321 mint has more leg room than fc seat on delta.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:01 pm

flymia wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
A service doesn't have to cost the provider something in order to have value.


Picking a seat? The ticket holder will be on a seat regardless, this is about picking one.

Bordering in a normal time with others in your rows. The ticket holder will need to get on the airplane regardless.

These two things a sham, and its a fee being added onto the normal economy ticket. They will add a few things here and there like a small change fee or what not. At the end of the day tickets prices will remain the same with a premium to select a seat and board normally for 95% of the passengers.

Race to the bottom. That is all it is.


I'm not sure you understand what you are arguing...
If a passenger does not see the value in pre-selecting a seat or boarding early they can save the additional money and purchase a Basic Economy ticket.
Only those passengers that believe there is extra value in pre-selecting their seat and boarding early would be subject to additional costs.
Choices. Why would providing customers choices to pay for those things they value or not pay extra for those things they do not value be a bad thing?

(I don't want to be presumptous but it sounds like you find value in pre-selecting your seat and boarding early, but are insensed you should pay for that perk. You feel entiltled to that becasue it used to be free. Well, those who do not find value in those perks are very happy paying $20-$30 less than you. But you have that option as well. But it sounds like while you are arguing there is no added value to those perks your words seem to say otherwise. If there is value, a business should charge for it - Economics 101)
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:07 pm

Low hanging cost-cutting fruit is moving their expensive NYC headquarters out of state.
What are they waiting for?
 
stlgph
Posts: 11224
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:08 pm

SteelChair wrote:
A sign of weakness by JetBlue. IMO they will not survive as an independent carrier in the long term.


Pretty much.

So funny how every time in the past I said JetBlue had to do more than just one trick pony it with "MINT" service on every route possible, I was told I was an idiot.
But hey, what do I know?
Enjoy basic economy, kiddies.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
KICT
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:09 pm

Aligning themselves with United to prepare the customer base for the eventual merger. The play for B6 will be made, and soon.
Quote me.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 547
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:30 pm

Time to become part of Alaska or United.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:39 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Time to become part of Alaska or United.



This would be a good thing.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:51 pm

A.net is so funny.

Anytime there is any news about to JetBlue, it's going to get taken over by XX, YY, ZZ.
 
KICT
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:03 pm

tphuang wrote:
A.net is so funny.

Anytime there is any news about to JetBlue, it's going to get taken over by XX, YY, ZZ.


This is neither a joke or A.net avgeek pipe dream.
JetBlue is done.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:13 pm

KICT wrote:
Aligning themselves with United to prepare the customer base for the eventual merger. The play for B6 will be made, and soon.
Quote me.


If the DOJ allows that merger, then it's official: we might as well repeal the Sherman Act, because there is no antitrust enforcement anyway.

UA/B6 would be an utter disaster for consumers in New York.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:28 pm

KICT wrote:
tphuang wrote:
A.net is so funny.

Anytime there is any news about to JetBlue, it's going to get taken over by XX, YY, ZZ.


This is neither a joke or A.net avgeek pipe dream.
JetBlue is done.


That I have heard many times too. Why don’t you give us a time frame? If it doesn’t happen by then, are you then going to apologize for saying this?

I don’t have any info clearly nor do I think it’s impossible. But this same message has been repeated countless times. As I said many times, wn is the carrier that makes the most sense to me.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:31 pm

Everyone has their own motives. Some people suggesting it’d be good for an AS takeover of B6 also trash AS in those threads. #WantBiggerPaychecks
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
adtall
Posts: 77
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:15 am

This may just be me, but why would UA want B6? UA doesn't need 200 JFK slots, only 16-20. They have EWR and don't need JFK (except maybe for some transcons). BOS also doesn't fit UA's public plans right now, which is building up their contested hub markets and growing marketshare in them. FLL may be nice to have for UA, but is it enough to justify the purchase price for B6 AND sinking money into a fight with AA on AA's turf, not to mention WN and NK? UA doesn't really even benefit from gaining transcon marketshare too much since they don't run from JFK.

I can easily see DL's case (BOS, JFK, transcon consolidation, and mayyyyybe bolster a decent FLL presence as a tertiary reason) and slightly less so AA's case (NYC, consolidate some in S Florida, regain Caribbean marketshare, transcon consolidation, and BOS if they care since they still have a good presence there), not that either would get by the DOJ. UA's case is not nearly as good and doesn't seem to justify either the expense or the integration headache.

Edited for punctuation
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6005
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Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:27 am

Jetblue is in a freefall.

It’s disgusting to see what is happening to them.

Adrift with a management team that doesnt seem to know what to do.
 
fastmover
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:37 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:27 am

KICT wrote:
Aligning themselves with United to prepare the customer base for the eventual merger. The play for B6 will be made, and soon.
Quote me.



Do you have some kind of inside knowledge or is this some educated guess.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:34 am

Today was the first day that UA/CO crew started flying together since their merger. That whole mess is all behind them now. Perhaps UA is ready for desert.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5332
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:34 am

fastmover wrote:
KICT wrote:
Aligning themselves with United to prepare the customer base for the eventual merger. The play for B6 will be made, and soon.
Quote me.



Do you have some kind of inside knowledge or is this some educated guess.

He has been saying this since b6 lost the bid for vx. Which imo, is the best thing that could have happened to them.

The real issue for me is that ua and b6 just aren’t a good fit. They don’t have the cost to make jfk work against a much larger delta slot portfolio. They would get crushed at fll with their cost against a much larger aa presence. They would be the largest carrier at bos, but is that worth $10 billion? Especially when they have ewr as their primary northeastern hub already.
 
greendot
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:33 am

Dieuwer wrote:
One way or the other, if JetBlue is going to cheapen its product/brand image, I bet that it will be Delta who will be laughing all the way to the bank in BOS and JFK.


Well, Delta's new interiors include inflight entertainment systems that always work. JetBlue's IFEs are pretty much always broken in one way or another. Now Delta is saying they will be giving free WiFi on flights. I don't know if it'll be WiFi at 1G speeds but even JetBlue's WiFi is slow (now), when it works. JB's comfort factor puts it above airlines for the price but if they start attacking comfort, they will lose to Delta.
 
KICT
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Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:19 am

adtall wrote:
This may just be me, but why would UA want B6?

For starters, United would gain a significant SE US presence overnight, plus the ability to re-enter JFK and in a big way, even with the usual merger-related concessions. The situation is unique as B6 pilots *want* to be bought out.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
zippy
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 9:46 pm

Re: JetBlue to add Basic Economy product. Company “success is at risk” if not matches others

Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:12 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
It is fascinating if not a bit ironic. The problem is I don't think a new airline could duplicate SW. They would be dead in the water in a few years due to pricing. SW has the advantage of 4 generations of Americans assuming they are the low cost leader. That advantage buys them a lot of leeway in pricing as we have seen but it will diminish over time. A new entry would get crushed right off the bat.


I remember when Southwest WAS a cheap airline, sure. I also booked OAK-PDX recently on Southwest knowing full well that: 1.) flying out of Oakland costs (me) more due to that stupid half-billion dollar BART cable car and 2.) Southwest was not the cheapest fare. and 3.) I'm not going to check any bags. I wanted the flexibility to change my travel dates, and Southwest gives me that. They came pretty close to the lowest economy fare and fly the route non-stop. I think it was about $60 each way versus about $50 each way on Alaska. The US3 had some basic economy fares that were close, obviously I didn't even consider those.

As for search engines, why would you use something that doesn't let you filter out the basic economy fares? There are only a handful of vendors that operate all the different travel sites. Typically I'll use Kayak which makes it trivial to filter out the basic economy garbage. And if memory serves, Southwest doesn't allow search engines access to their fares.

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