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LAX772LR
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:13 am

alfa164 wrote:
Freedom of travel, per se, is the basic right. It is not the role of the government to make those choices for us.

That's not entirely true, at least for USAmericans:
Freedom of domestic (interstate) travel is indeed a right enshrined in multiple places in the Constitution, most directly via Article IV, Section 2, Clause 1; but freedom of international travel, not so much.

The Supreme Court has made it clear (in several cases, most notably Zemel v. Rusk) that even an implied right to travel internationally, is not without limits from government restriction; even if imposed unilaterally by the Executive branch, should a balancing test lean in the latter's favor.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:05 am

alfa164 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
I think restrictions should be lifted, but a cheap beach vacation is not a “basic right” - that’s getting carried away.


Freedom of travel, per se, is the basic right. It is not the role of the government to make those choices for us.

Bobloblaw wrote:
Turkey is more repressive than ever and China’s human rights record is no better today than it was when they were admitted into the WTO.


When they were admitted into the WTO? Are those your goalposts? Then it is fair to say the USA is more repressive as well; there were no travel restrictions on us at that time.

Bobloblaw wrote:
Only two countries ban personal travel? The USA and North Korea?? I think you should try again.


Please enlighten us, then: which other nations ban personal travel to specific countries?

:roll:

Well that would certainly explain all the demand between Israel and other Middle East nations. When was China admitted to the wto? Why don’t you try looking up information yourself.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Rumor: AA to end CLT-HAV

Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:59 am

N649DL wrote:
B727skyguy wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Very, very possible. Cuba just isn't ready for prime time yet as a tourist destination. Hotels have large waiting lists since there aren't many of them as is.

Considering that US citizen touristic travel to Cuba is still prohibited, the waiting list for hotels must be for Canadian and European travelers. I've always wondered why there was such a rush to have all these flights from the US to Cuba when US citizens cannot yet travel there as tourists.

From the US State Department website:

Tourist travel to Cuba remains prohibited. You must obtain a license from the Department of Treasury or your travel must fall into one of 12 categories of authorized travel.

(source: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel ... /Cuba.html)


Interesting as a buddy of mine has been down there several times and usually does AirBNB. How does he get down there? (Granted, he's part of a large union.)


I do photography for online magazine as well as a local magazine. I qualify as journalistic activity. Thinking about doing a photo essay on the classic cars and how they have kept them running.
 
csavel
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Re: Rumor: AA to end CLT-HAV

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:58 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
B727skyguy wrote:
Considering that US citizen touristic travel to Cuba is still prohibited, the waiting list for hotels must be for Canadian and European travelers. I've always wondered why there was such a rush to have all these flights from the US to Cuba when US citizens cannot yet travel there as tourists.

From the US State Department website:

Tourist travel to Cuba remains prohibited. You must obtain a license from the Department of Treasury or your travel must fall into one of 12 categories of authorized travel.

(source: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel ... /Cuba.html)


Interesting as a buddy of mine has been down there several times and usually does AirBNB. How does he get down there? (Granted, he's part of a large union.)

While tourist travel is prohibited in theory, in practice the rule is very weakly enforced. As such, many people do visit as tourists regardless and most use the "people to people" category for their trips. The larger hindrances to vacation travel to Cuba are:

1. The availability of accommodation (for those who are not familiar with AirBnB
2. The fact that American debit/credit cards don't work in Cuba
3. The 10% fee for converting USD to CUC
4. The cost of a Cuban visa

However, with all of that said if AA is able to move the frequency to Miami, it'll be the highest frequency of any of AA's MIA-Caribbean (and likely international generally) routes. Not bad for a route for which many have been predicting the demise.


Actually people to people travel is now banned again. So if you want to stay legal, you have to go on a group tour where they provide a specific itinerary for you to stay legal, or make sure you are in one of the other categories, have all your paperwork OR take your chances. I understand it is not enforced but the rules against spending money have also been tightened meaning the Air B&B option gets more difficult. People to people was great, you could pretty much say anything and nobody checked.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24964
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:04 pm

Southwest has withdrawn its request for frequencies to operate additional TPA-HAV service.

Carrier says its facing capacity constraints and also has new Hawaii service upcoming in 2019 that requires focus instead.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2540
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:36 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Southwest has withdrawn its request for frequencies to operate additional TPA-HAV service.


Is this an opportunity for AA or is routing TPA based pax through MIA still the only way for AA?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
axiom
Posts: 901
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:14 am

TPA-HAV is pretty well served at 9w 737 service. Don't see another carrier jumping in between Southwest and one of the longstanding charter operators. Given that the latter are still in the game, it must be at least marginally profitable -- but perhaps too marginal for WN to chase.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2088
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:26 am

LAXintl wrote:
Southwest has withdrawn its request for frequencies to operate additional TPA-HAV service.

Carrier says its facing capacity constraints and also has new Hawaii service upcoming in 2019 that requires focus instead.


Man the Hits keep on coming.
I wonder if they will be returning the 2nd Saturday only flight?

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
N415XJ
Posts: 890
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:04 pm

Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:58 am

alfa164 wrote:
Please enlighten us, then: which other nations ban personal travel to specific countries?

:roll:


Several Arab countries ban their citizens from traveling to Israel, some completely and others with very few exceptions.
 
axiom
Posts: 901
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:45 am

wnflyguy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Southwest has withdrawn its request for frequencies to operate additional TPA-HAV service.

Carrier says its facing capacity constraints and also has new Hawaii service upcoming in 2019 that requires focus instead.


Man the Hits keep on coming.
I wonder if they will be returning the 2nd Saturday only flight?

Flyguy


I believe this is what WN is retracting the request for, no? One additional Saturday frequency.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
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Re: Rumor: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:09 am

longhauler wrote:
B727skyguy wrote:

Very, very possible. Cuba just isn't ready for prime time yet as a tourist destination. Hotels have large waiting lists since there aren't many of them as is.
Considering that US citizen touristic travel to Cuba is still prohibited, the waiting list for hotels must be for Canadian and European travelers. I've always wondered why there was such a rush to have all these flights from the US to Cuba when US citizens cannot yet travel there as tourists.

I am not sure what you mean by a waiting list, but the best deals to the Caribbean right now are to Cuba. One would think that indicates a lot of open space.

It is not hard to find a week in an all inclusive resort for about $600 CDN including airfare and taxes out of YYZ. That is about $450 US !!!

But I think you hit on the problem with your second comments. The biggest issue with traffic to Cuba from the US is that the resort destinations cater to the tourist and the US tourist is still restricted. That leaves only HAV for US citizens for VFR and business traffic. When tourist restrictions are lifted, then those destinations outside of HAV will flourish.

It is interesting to look at Air Canada (for example). One HAV daily out of YYZ that is basically business traffic. Then ... dozens of flights daily from all over Canada to the rest of Cuba, flying a very different passenger. In fact during the winter weekends, it is not uncommon to see over a hundred flights a day, from all over Canada, to all over Cuba on all airlines!


Are you looking at different prices than I am?! My whole family is setting up a HAV trip. Fares seem to hover right at $1,000 USD RT. For a US domestic to HAV trip. So that will be uh, $12k. Note: I am talking fare only.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Rumor: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:13 pm

Flighty wrote:
Are you looking at different prices than I am?! My whole family is setting up a HAV trip. Fares seem to hover right at $1,000 USD RT. For a US domestic to HAV trip. So that will be uh, $12k. Note: I am talking fare only.

I suppose so ... for starters, as I said, I was quoting fares from Canada and that was a month ago during low season. Today though, looking at Sunwing.ca (for example) I see a week in Cuba at an all inclusive resort for $705 CDN or $520 USD, including fares, taxes and fees.

But that is really the point I was making. HAV is a very very different market than the rest of Cuba, with a very different customer. That American HAV customer always existed, the "vacation" customer is far more plentiful from Canada, but virtually non-existant from the US. I often wonder if American carriers did not see that.

During high season from Canada, there is still only one HAV flight daily, but almost 100 flights from all of Canada to all of Cuba daily on weekends!

Also note, that during the same week in January, Air Canada's round trip fare YYZ-HAV-YYZ is anywhere between $600 CDN to $1000 CDN.

Interesting that you are looking at HAV and not a beach/resort type vacation. I have always said that is the best way to see Cuba. Fly to HAV, rent a car, rent a house and explore. It is an astounding island full of wonderful people. The police presence is a little initimidating, until you remember that as a Canadian (or American) you have rights the locals do not.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:38 pm

axiom wrote:


I believe this is what WN is retracting the request for, no? One additional Saturday frequency.


SWA was asking DOT for second daily TPA-HAV.
Last edited by LAXintl on Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1176
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:52 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Southwest has withdrawn its request for frequencies to operate additional TPA-HAV service.

Carrier says its facing capacity constraints and also has new Hawaii service upcoming in 2019 that requires focus instead.


Man the Hits keep on coming.
I wonder if they will be returning the 2nd Saturday only flight?

Flyguy

How is that a hit? They were asking for double daily TPA-HAV and just decided not to pursue it any longer.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:43 pm

Not sure if this was posted already, but B6 is applying for an additional FLL-HAV flight starting May 1 on an A320

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0021-1398
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
jayunited
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:42 am

American has filed a response to JetBlue's request for an additional HAV frequency. According to the article American states JetBlue's request for additional frequency should be denied based on the fact that JetBlue's FLL-HAV flights have an over abundance of empty seats. American claims their 5 flights from MIA average about an 83% load factor, whereas JetBlue from FLL is only averaging 52% this is after JetBlue downguaged their flights from an A320 to an E190. According to America their HAV flights have always enjoyed strong demand while JetBlue is suffering from an abundance of empty seats.

How this all came about is because AA originally filed for permission to move CLT-HAV to MIA. AA wanted the flexibility to move this frequency the same flexibility DL currently wants for their HND frequencies the problem is the DOT denied AA's request. According to the article WN originally stated it would bid on the frequency only to withdraw to focus on their future Hawaii service which left AA and B6 as the only two airlines battling it out for this one frequency.

My question is this; Does AA have a valid point that B6 should be denied an additional FLL-HAV frequency because they are basically flying around a bunch of empty seats?

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SurfandSnow
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:06 am

If DL can manage MIA-HAV, no doubt B6 could too. Why doesn't B6 just bite the bullet and serve MIA already? In addition to the obvious BOS/JFK-MIA catering to FFer bases in the Northeast and South Florida (as well as feeding all kinds of international partners), B6 could probably manage popular O&D routes like MIA-DCA/EWR/LGA/SDQ/SJU and probably even MIA-HAV...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
FSDan
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:20 am

jayunited wrote:
My question is this; Does AA have a valid point that B6 should be denied an additional FLL-HAV frequency because they are basically flying around a bunch of empty seats?


In this case their argument makes sense to me. Either proposed flight would be serving the same metro area from HAV, so given the fact that load factor data indicates one route is doing much better than the other, it seems to make sense to add the flight where it will be more likely to succeed. Plus, in this case AA's MIA hub would also provide a lot more connection opportunities than B6's FLL operation.
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LAXintl
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:12 pm

DOT today granted AA request to move the authority from CLT to MIA.


The Department has tentatively decided that it is in the public interest to grant the motion of American to move its daily Charlotte-Havana frequency to the Miami-Havana route, rather than select an alternative use for that frequency.

Only JetBlue proposed an alternative use of the frequency, proposing an additional daily Fort Lauderdale-Havana flight, or alternatively an additional Saturday-only Fort Lauderdale-Havana flight. Having reviewed the record in the proceeding, the Department tentatively finds that American’s proposed Miami-Havana flight would achieve greater public benefits.



Order 2019-3-9
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:24 pm

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
What was AA's reasoning for never requesting JFK/DFW-HAV?


B6 has pretty much killed AA out of JFK on short-haul, especially to the Caribbean. As for DFW, they are probably too far north to do what United has done out of IAH.
 
aacun
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:23 pm

As many flights as CUN from Miami. Wow. Just incredible
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:45 pm

aacun wrote:
As many flights as CUN from Miami. Wow. Just incredible

Yup. HAV went from nothing to tied for the most mainline frequencies on AA to an international destination out of MIA within two years. And I could see them adding more frequencies once permitted.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2443
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:06 pm

It didn’t go from nothing, AA and others ran multiple daily charters from MIA-HAV.
 
flymia
Posts: 7130
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:39 pm

aacun wrote:
As many flights as CUN from Miami. Wow. Just incredible


Before the scheduled service there were a bunch of charters. The only change is its scheduled service instead of charters. There are likely a few more frequencies now, but there have always been a lot of flights between Miami and Havana for years now.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
aacun
Posts: 449
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Re: AA to end CLT-HAV

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:14 pm

Before the scheduled service there were a bunch of charters. The only change is its scheduled service instead of charters. There are likely a few more frequencies now, but there have always been a lot of flights between Miami and Havana for years now.[/quote]

I know that. I used to go on the charters with Eastern back in 1984-85. I’m talking about scheduled flying. That wasn’t around until recently

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