TC957 wrote:

B747forever wrote:

Makes me wonder if they went down because of their TATL expansion. They have been flying for a few years on short haul "charter routes", and that seemed to work for them. Always thought their TATL expansion was kind of crazy.

Must have been a major factor no doubt. Their TATL ambitions were a mess from the very beginning - not helped of course by the late A321LR deliveries.

Probably not helped by the Oprah-style "YOU CAN HAVE A TATL ROUTE, AND YOU CAN HAVE A TATL ROUTE".

With any luck B6 or LS will make a decent fist of it. LS Have done it for a while for winter and the market is there.

OA940 wrote:

Primera has announced quite the shakeup for the TATL market and it will benefit passengers greatly

How much shaking could they do with a fleet of 7?

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

MAH4546 correctly predicted this one. He said their transatlantic aspirations may not last a year.

klm617 wrote:

This airline would have been better off setting itself up at LGW or FRA and flying to places like PIT, PHL, CLE, CMH, CVG, DTW, BWI, CLT and the like 3 or 4 times a week rather than trying to break into BOS, YYZ and NYC that are already over crowded

Bankruptcy would have happened in July if they did that.

How so at least they could have gotten a nice return on fares probably triple of what they were charging out of BOS, YYZ and NYC

And Norwegian would have killed them off even earlier than today.

Thibault973 wrote:

TC957 wrote:

Thibault973 wrote:

Well I hope we travellers who booked with them can get our money back because when Air Madrid shut down we, a family of 6, never saw 1 dime of the tickets we had booked with them to buenos aires

That's because you didn't book with a travel company that has a financial protection system in place for it's clients.

Booked directly on the airlines website like I always do

Always pay with a credit card and most probably you will be protected.

concordeforever wrote:

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

MAH4546 correctly predicted this one. He said their transatlantic aspirations may not last a year.




Bankruptcy would have happened in July if they did that.

How so at least they could have gotten a nice return on fares probably triple of what they were charging out of BOS, YYZ and NYC

And Norwegian would have killed them off even earlier than today.

Good news for Norwegain except that it frees up AB slots and could hurt their AB leasing opportunities.

TC957 wrote:

Perhaps this is also a warning to JetBlue to think very carefully with their TATL plans being touted about.

Naw, this is good news for B6. Less competition, and unlike all these others throwing routes across the atlantic like darts, B6 is slow and methodical with the cash flow from a solid domestic network to build the atlantic one. B6 entering this market will spell the doom of several more Primera clones and fares tank more and B6 outlasts them all.

Thibault973 wrote:

Well I hope we travellers who booked with them can get our money back because when Air Madrid shut down we, a family of 6, never saw 1 dime of the tickets we had booked with them to buenos aires

Sorry to say it, but there's little to no chance of getting anything back. They're effectively out of cash and have little in the way of disposable assets. It's the lawyers first, then the employees, then the authorities, then the lessors and banks, and only then other creditors such as customers.

Shame it ended but at least they had the balls to try.

I personally am devastated for all the Primera crew both flight deck and cabin crew who exactly a year ago today lost their jobs with Monarch.

Such a shame. Had a good experience with Primera and was looking forward to S19 with their MAX9’s.

mattyfitzg wrote:

I personally am devastated for all the Primera crew both flight deck and cabin crew who exactly a year ago today lost their jobs with Monarch.

Such a shame. Had a good experience with Primera and was looking forward to S19 with their MAX9’s.

Hopefully LS take-on their 737 crew and U2 their Airbus crew.

Their BHX demise showed the issue they had with the UK, we have the following players in the low-cost VFR market:

• Ryanair
• easyJet
• Wizz Air
• Jet2
• TUI
• Thomas Cook
• Norwegian
• Flybe (sort of)

Add this to the plethora of legacy carriers and they really didn't stand a chance in such a crowded market!

What this does leave is a massive gap for the East Midlands and TATL. The nearest airports to me with regular TATL service are now LHR or MAN... No. I really don't want to have to travel 2h30 on a good day to get to either and I'm about as central as you can get! Stansted was perfect for East Anglia and if they'd made BHX work they should have been able to cash-in.

The reasons Primera air put up for their demise is, I venture to suggest, more than just a tad thin. An aircraft suffering badly from corrosion and a having to lease in replacements for delayed new aircraft, doesn't quite jive.

They were due in court in Denmark, as their practice of calling crew living in Sweden buy flying out of CPH 'MMA based' didn't sit well with the union, who had a date set in labour court to challenge this practice. Chances were very good the union would win, and Primera would have to sign a CLA on Danish conditions to avoid being unable to fly from CPH (they'd be subjected to sympathy actions from other unions, making ground handling impossible). That would have meant a large number of RIX based crews on self-employment would have to get more than double their current salary, plus all the benefits which comes with a direct employment contract. The prospect of that, which would also largely undermine their move to RIX; probably played a part in the decision to shut the airline down.

It's also the age-old story of an ambitious set of owners executing an aggressive businessplan, using 'growth' as the mantra to success. In this, as in many other cases, sticking to their guns - which in Primera's case was shuttling Scandinavian tourists to and from the Med - and accepting the limited growth that market comes with, would likely have saved them.

But that wasn't enough for the Icelandic owner. It used to be banks with the Icelandics, these days it seems to be airlines. And, yes, I'm also in the group who doesn't think WOW will be around for much longer.

B777LRF wrote:

The reasons Primera air put up for their demise is, I venture to suggest, more than just a tad thin. An aircraft suffering badly from corrosion and a having to lease in replacements for delayed new aircraft, doesn't quite jive.

As of about an hour ago it looks like they've removed the corrosion and delivery delay wetlease lines of reasoning from their website announcement.

Looks like they have three A321N on the ground at Stansted

Which aircraft was written off by corrosion?

CobaltScar wrote:

TC957 wrote:

Perhaps this is also a warning to JetBlue to think very carefully with their TATL plans being touted about.

Naw, this is good news for B6. Less competition, and unlike all these others throwing routes across the atlantic like darts, B6 is slow and methodical with the cash flow from a solid domestic network to build the atlantic one. B6 entering this market will spell the doom of several more Primera clones and fares tank more and B6 outlasts them all.

That's the best post yet. Agreed. B6 gains more than DY or WW. The overlap with those other LCCs was minimal. Primera's big city strategy would have been the biggest pain to B6's plans.

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

MAH4546 correctly predicted this one. He said their transatlantic aspirations may not last a year.

klm617 wrote:

This airline would have been better off setting itself up at LGW or FRA and flying to places like PIT, PHL, CLE, CMH, CVG, DTW, BWI, CLT and the like 3 or 4 times a week rather than trying to break into BOS, YYZ and NYC that are already over crowded

Bankruptcy would have happened in July if they did that.

How so at least they could have gotten a nice return on fares probably triple of what they were charging out of BOS, YYZ and NYC

So triple the fare, 10% of the traffic and 0% of European point of sale .... hmmm maybe they would have went bankrupt mid -June

arcticcruiser wrote:

Good riddance. This company jumped from one country to another to find the lowest common denominator regulatory wise. The trail of court suits is long. I have personally known the CEO for a long time, and I know the owners track record. My description of them is not fit for print. I also know several ex Primera pilots. Not one of them has a good word for this company. Pilots working for them can only find better employment. I suspect same goes for most other staff except maybe office staff in Riga.

Care to elaborate?
My feeling from the beginning was that Primera Air was a racket: sell tickets to line the pockets of management while not providing service and declare bankruptcy in due time (as of today in fact).

Three aircraft currently in the air. https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/PRI

Icelandic travel agency HeimTours transferred all of its contracts to Travelservice and will assist Primera Air passengers to ensure that everyone arrives at the destination and to Iceland. In a press release from Heimsferðir, the travel agency will start flying with Travelservice as of tomorrow, 2 October

https://www.mbl.is/frettir/innlent/2018 ... a_islandi/

pdp wrote:

mattyfitzg wrote:

I personally am devastated for all the Primera crew both flight deck and cabin crew who exactly a year ago today lost their jobs with Monarch.

Such a shame. Had a good experience with Primera and was looking forward to S19 with their MAX9’s.

Hopefully LS take-on their 737 crew and U2 their Airbus crew.

Their BHX demise showed the issue they had with the UK, we have the following players in the low-cost VFR market:

• Ryanair
• easyJet
• Wizz Air
• Jet2
• TUI
• Thomas Cook
• Norwegian
• Flybe (sort of)

Add this to the plethora of legacy carriers and they really didn't stand a chance in such a crowded market!

What this does leave is a massive gap for the East Midlands and TATL. The nearest airports to me with regular TATL service are now LHR or MAN... No. I really don't want to have to travel 2h30 on a good day to get to either and I'm about as central as you can get! Stansted was perfect for East Anglia and if they'd made BHX work they should have been able to cash-in.

Why not make use of the EI service out of BHX to the US via DUB and clear US immigration at DUB ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45712063

another STN long hauler bites the dust...

TC957 wrote:

pdp wrote:

mattyfitzg wrote:

I personally am devastated for all the Primera crew both flight deck and cabin crew who exactly a year ago today lost their jobs with Monarch.

Such a shame. Had a good experience with Primera and was looking forward to S19 with their MAX9’s.

Hopefully LS take-on their 737 crew and U2 their Airbus crew.

Their BHX demise showed the issue they had with the UK, we have the following players in the low-cost VFR market:

• Ryanair
• easyJet
• Wizz Air
• Jet2
• TUI
• Thomas Cook
• Norwegian
• Flybe (sort of)

Add this to the plethora of legacy carriers and they really didn't stand a chance in such a crowded market!

What this does leave is a massive gap for the East Midlands and TATL. The nearest airports to me with regular TATL service are now LHR or MAN... No. I really don't want to have to travel 2h30 on a good day to get to either and I'm about as central as you can get! Stansted was perfect for East Anglia and if they'd made BHX work they should have been able to cash-in.

Why not make use of the EI service out of BHX to the US via DUB and clear US immigration at DUB ?

It's 10 hours, so it's no quicker than going down to Heathrow.

This had to happen sooner or later. They were ambitious, but they weren't smart. They made mistake after mistake on these TATL routes, picking the wrong airports and flight times and such. Most of all, they grew too fast. They didn't take the time to build it up slowly, evaluate and improve their operations. All they did was add more, more, more. That's not the way to go.

dotcom wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45712063

another STN long hauler bites the dust...

But not due to Stansted. Out of all the things they did wrong, I think this is one of the few things they actually did right. Well, except for the flight times perhaps. Flying on the most expensive times of the day and thus having the highest slot costs might have been one of the things they could have done better. But I still believe Stansted can sustain a few long haul flights if done right.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

This had to happen sooner or later. They were ambitious, but they weren't smart. They made mistake after mistake on these TATL routes, picking the wrong airports and flight times and such. Most of all, they grew too fast. They didn't take the time to build it up slowly, evaluate and improve their operations. All they did was add more, more, more. That's not the way to go.

The emphasis on their TATL ambitions is, I think, somewhat misplaced. Out of the 400.000 passengers they carried a year, almost 300.000 were out of CPH on a (profitable) contract to a local IT travel agency. In that respect the TATL operation was but a distraction, albeit a costly and poorly executed one. I stand by my assessment, it was mainly their impending loss at the Danish labour court which triggered the decision to shut down.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

dotcom wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45712063

another STN long hauler bites the dust...

But not due to Stansted. Out of all the things they did wrong, I think this is one of the few things they actually did right. Well, except for the flight times perhaps. Flying on the most expensive times of the day and thus having the highest slot costs might have been one of the things they could have done better. But I still believe Stansted can sustain a few long haul flights if done right.

hmmm not sure any of the US routes have lasted long, wonder how long until EK pull out,, can't imagine they're getting good load factors

I feel sorry for the staff affected, but it was clear from its plans for next summer that it is was pursuing growth far too quickly.

pdp wrote:

TC957 wrote:

pdp wrote:

Hopefully LS take-on their 737 crew and U2 their Airbus crew.

Their BHX demise showed the issue they had with the UK, we have the following players in the low-cost VFR market:

• Ryanair
• easyJet
• Wizz Air
• Jet2
• TUI
• Thomas Cook
• Norwegian
• Flybe (sort of)

Add this to the plethora of legacy carriers and they really didn't stand a chance in such a crowded market!

What this does leave is a massive gap for the East Midlands and TATL. The nearest airports to me with regular TATL service are now LHR or MAN... No. I really don't want to have to travel 2h30 on a good day to get to either and I'm about as central as you can get! Stansted was perfect for East Anglia and if they'd made BHX work they should have been able to cash-in.

Why not make use of the EI service out of BHX to the US via DUB and clear US immigration at DUB ?

It's 10 hours, so it's no quicker than going down to Heathrow.

You'll make up time having cleared US customs already in DUB rather than the awful long lines at some US airports, plus less stress and expense getting down to LHR.

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

MAH4546 correctly predicted this one. He said their transatlantic aspirations may not last a year.




Bankruptcy would have happened in July if they did that.

How so at least they could have gotten a nice return on fares probably triple of what they were charging out of BOS, YYZ and NYC

So triple the fare, 10% of the traffic and 0% of European point of sale .... hmmm maybe they would have went bankrupt mid -June

That even makes more sense then as fares from the USA to Europe are higher than those originating in Europe. At a minimum of $250 each way out of the cities I listed loads would have been at or near 90%. The people in these markets are funding all the low fares in the big market by paying $1000+ fares while people in BOS, NYC and YYZ are paying $149 each way to get to London. Bring that low cost service into those markets at half price and watch those full planes depart one after another.

DELTA777 wrote:

Three aircraft currently in the air. https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/PRI

There also PF441 from BLL-CHQ. Not sure why but it landed in VIE earlier.

https://www.flightradar24.com/PRI441

B747forever wrote:

Makes me wonder if they went down because of their TATL expansion. They have been flying for a few years on short haul "charter routes", and that seemed to work for them. Always thought their TATL expansion was kind of crazy.

Almost certainly. The late delivery of the A321neos, the short notice cancellation of flights and the unreliable leased-in National 757 all conspired against Primera and must have created a huge EU261 lability, amongst other costs. Some of this might have been predictable, such as the late delivery and contingencies were not made. The almost frantic announcement of high conception routes for Summer 2020 with the -9MAX did make me wonder how well things were going. They planned to fly longer routes on an aircraft with shorter range. It never made much sense.

A poster mentioned that the Primera story had unfortunate parallels with flyGlobespan. Sadly they both came to a sad end and prove that TATL operations must be operationally rock-solid, otherwise you loose the farm.

crescent wrote:

DELTA777 wrote:

Three aircraft currently in the air. https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/PRI

There also PF441 from BLL-CHQ. Not sure why but it landed in VIE earlier.

https://www.flightradar24.com/PRI441

As if their day wasn't bad enough, the crew had to deal with a medical emergency.

klm617 wrote:

adamh8297 wrote:

klm617 wrote:

How so at least they could have gotten a nice return on fares probably triple of what they were charging out of BOS, YYZ and NYC

So triple the fare, 10% of the traffic and 0% of European point of sale .... hmmm maybe they would have went bankrupt mid -June

That even makes more sense then as fares from the USA to Europe are higher than those originating in Europe. At a minimum of $250 each way out of the cities I listed loads would have been at or near 90%. The people in these markets are funding all the low fares in the big market by paying $1000+ fares while people in BOS, NYC and YYZ are paying $149 each way to get to London. Bring that low cost service into those markets at half price and watch those full planes depart one after another.

Wrong - J and F fund the low fares but the fares on BOS-AMS aren't low in the summer on DL's non-stop. $1300 was the going rate on that route. Primera's average fare was probably above 250 each way too.

European point of sale is very important for a European based-carrier. No one in Europe wants to go to the midwest except for Cook County Illinois and that small rural town Chicago that steals traffic from everywhere else. Maybe FI and WW have found their niche skimming as much US point of sale as they can but hub and spoke helps there. PF needed O+D.

Well, looks like someone is blowing off some steam.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primera_Air

dotcom wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45712063

another STN long hauler bites the dust...

Definitely STN has bad luck when it comes to long-haul. Is there a comprehensive list of all the failed long-haul routes out of STN in the last 10 or 15 years?

PatrickZ80 wrote:

dotcom wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45712063

another STN long hauler bites the dust...

But not due to Stansted. Out of all the things they did wrong, I think this is one of the few things they actually did right. Well, except for the flight times perhaps. Flying on the most expensive times of the day and thus having the highest slot costs might have been one of the things they could have done better. But I still believe Stansted can sustain a few long haul flights if done right.

Now that is a interesting comment coming from you. On one hand you relentlessly argue in every thread about DY, that the whole Norwegian business plan is flawed because their main long haul base is at LGW, in the greatest OD city in the world, due to ADP. But in this case, another LCC was right to be based at STN, with that same ADP. How do you want it?

what kind of slots did they have at JFK? were they even flying there yet or starting in the future?

B747forever wrote:

PatrickZ80 wrote:

dotcom wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45712063

another STN long hauler bites the dust...

But not due to Stansted. Out of all the things they did wrong, I think this is one of the few things they actually did right. Well, except for the flight times perhaps. Flying on the most expensive times of the day and thus having the highest slot costs might have been one of the things they could have done better. But I still believe Stansted can sustain a few long haul flights if done right.

Now that is a interesting comment coming from you. On one hand you relentlessly argue in every thread about DY, that the whole Norwegian business plan is flawed because their main long haul base is at LGW, in the greatest OD city in the world, due to ADP. But in this case, another LCC was right to be based at STN, with that same ADP. How do you want it?

There's a reason Ryanair have overrun Stansted and not Gatwick

AF022 wrote:

what kind of slots did they have at JFK? were they even flying there yet or starting in the future?

They had two daily slots from June 2019 I think for the Berlin/Frankfurt route

dotcom wrote:

hmmm not sure any of the US routes have lasted long, wonder how long until EK pull out,, can't imagine they're getting good load factors

Just on 20.500 passengers carried in August. Or 330 passengers per flight which is 93% full if operating the 3 class 77Ws they announced - at worst, its 77% loads with 2 class 77Ws.

So about that thread about JetBlue interlining with Primera being a “big deal...”

I hope the reports of the crews downroute being left to fight for themselves aren’t true.

At least bow out with some respect for the employees

B747forever wrote:

PatrickZ80 wrote:

dotcom wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45712063

another STN long hauler bites the dust...

But not due to Stansted. Out of all the things they did wrong, I think this is one of the few things they actually did right. Well, except for the flight times perhaps. Flying on the most expensive times of the day and thus having the highest slot costs might have been one of the things they could have done better. But I still believe Stansted can sustain a few long haul flights if done right.

Now that is a interesting comment coming from you. On one hand you relentlessly argue in every thread about DY, that the whole Norwegian business plan is flawed because their main long haul base is at LGW, in the greatest OD city in the world, due to ADP. But in this case, another LCC was right to be based at STN, with that same ADP. How do you want it?

Made a typo, meant APD (air passenger duty).

BrianDromey wrote:

The almost frantic announcement of high conception routes for Summer 2020 with the -9MAX did make me wonder how well things were going. They planned to fly longer routes on an aircraft with shorter range. It never made much sense.

But that is nothing to do with Primera and everything to do with your lack of knowledge. The B39Ms were to have aux tanks fitted, essentially giving them BBJ range which would have made TATL ops a piece of cake. This important detail was always ignored whenever discussion of them buying B39Ms was questioned.

LewisNEO wrote:

I am sure for that. They also have another 737 MAX 9 on order which are/were due soon. I'll guess there are plenty of users who want them from the lessor.
According to wiki there are 18 on order, but I found on the Boeing website an order for 8, up to 20. https://www.boeing.com/commercial/custo ... order.page

Their first B39M (which is on the flight line at Renton right now) was an Air Lease Corp frame fyi, not one of their own. Although probably not as 'in demand' as a B38M, I doubt the lessor will have difficulty finding a new home for it.

The “declaring of bankruptcy” is being somewhat delayed, since all aircraft need to be back at their respective bases. YL-PSD has been on the ground in Chania for nearly 2 hours.

Either it has been seized or a conveniently timed tech.



Crews in Canada and the states paying out of their own pocket for flights home too. Disgusting.

RobK wrote:

BrianDromey wrote:

The almost frantic announcement of high conception routes for Summer 2020 with the -9MAX did make me wonder how well things were going. They planned to fly longer routes on an aircraft with shorter range. It never made much sense.

But that is nothing to do with Primera and everything to do with your lack of knowledge. The B39Ms were to have aux tanks fitted, essentially giving them BBJ range which would have made TATL ops a piece of cake. This important detail was always ignored whenever discussion of them buying B39Ms was questioned.

A 195 seat airliner never gets BBJ range if it carries any worthwhile payload. Useful load is a combination of payload and fuel. One goes to the maximum figure and the other one comes down. Look a payload range graphs.

Who will take max9? Probably Icelandair,Turkish,United,Alaska,Aeromexico or who knows... A321neo will go as hot cakes. They had crazy business plan and they failed miserably. JetBlue will think twice before they start new TATL ops. Who knows what will happened in future with low cost long haul but they were crazy optimistic. There is plenty of market for thin routes on TATL market. Norwegian wasn’t that successful, but maybe real European ultra low cost players will show us what they can do. What is happening with WOW? To me looks like they’re doing great.

GalebG4 wrote:

Who will take max9? Probably Icelandair,Turkish,United,Alaska,Aeromexico or who knows... A321neo will go as hot cakes. They had crazy business plan and they failed miserably. JetBlue will think twice before they start new TATL ops. Who knows what will happened in future with low cost long haul but they were crazy optimistic. There is plenty of market for thin routes on TATL market. Norwegian wasn’t that successful, but maybe real European ultra low cost players will show us what they can do. What is happening with WOW? To me looks like they’re doing great.

WOW air doing great? Then you have not been keeping up. They have been on a ventilator recently and just today announced they are dropping Stockholm, Edinburgh and SFO in one month!

TC957 wrote:

B747forever wrote:

Makes me wonder if they went down because of their TATL expansion. They have been flying for a few years on short haul "charter routes", and that seemed to work for them. Always thought their TATL expansion was kind of crazy.

Must have been a major factor no doubt. Their TATL ambitions were a mess from the very beginning - not helped of course by the late A321LR deliveries.

Not to nitpick but their A321neo aren't LR birds; only standard A321neo (maybe with added fuel tank tho). A321LR was not supposed to be in that door config (it should have no L2 and overwing exits instead)

Sad to see Primera Air goes down but not really surprising. Biggest loss for anyone other than employees and travellers are probably the the beautiful livery.

Michael