Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Interflug and their A310s

Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:21 pm

How come Interflug got their A310s even before the wall fell down? I mean, it was still communist East Germany when they were ordered and received.

https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic

 
dcajet
Posts: 4732
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:53 pm

Towards the end of 80s the GDR was pretty much bankrupt and the Federal Republic of Germany was assisting with loans, etc. I believe those planes were part of that help package. In any case they ended up with the Luftwaffe, so money well spent after all.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
User avatar
Melbourne
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:57 pm

Well it wasn't totally out of the ordinary as LOT and Malev had ordered Boeing aircraft before the end of Communist rule and not to mention TAROM operated 707s for a number of years.
 
User avatar
ClipperYankee
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:51 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:35 pm

Depending on how you factor them in, behind the Iron Curtain or not, would JAT count as the biggest Western aircraft operator in Eastern Europe? They flew everything from Convairs to Caravelles to DC3s, DC6s, DC9s and 10s as well as 707s, 727s and 737s.
707/717/727/737-100,200,300,400,500,700,800/747-200,300,400/757-200,300/767-300,400
772/788&9/DC3/DC6/DC8/DC9/DC10/MD80s/L1011/A300/A319,320,321/A332&3/A343/A359/A388/
BAE146/ATP/ATR42/DHC2,3,7,8/S340B/CRJ200,700,900/E140,145,175,190/F70,100/B1900
 
dcajet
Posts: 4732
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:05 am

Melbourne wrote:
Well it wasn't totally out of the ordinary as LOT and Malev had ordered Boeing aircraft before the end of Communist rule and not to mention TAROM operated 707s for a number of years.


Very true. Towards the mid-80s, Gorby's perestroika had given COMECON members additional freedoms, such as procuring aircraft from the west. As I said earlier on here, the GDR, once communism's showcase to the world in the 60s and 70s was pretty much broke in the 80s and the Federal Republic stepped in with loans to assist and Interflug turned to Airbus to replace those ageing IL-62Ms.

ClipperYankee wrote:
Depending on how you factor them in, behind the Iron Curtain or not, would JAT count as the biggest Western aircraft operator in Eastern Europe? They flew everything from Convairs to Caravelles to DC3s, DC6s, DC9s and 10s as well as 707s, 727s and 737s.


The former Yugoslavia, under Tito had always marched to its own drummer, more a part of the non aligned countries movement back in the 70s. Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu also broke with the Moscow mothership when he criticized the 1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. While Romania remained a brutal communist dictatorship, it pursued a more independent course from Moscow. TAROM, the national airline, procured BAC 1-11s and 707s.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
User avatar
northstardc4m
Posts: 3412
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 11:23 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:08 am

ClipperYankee wrote:
Depending on how you factor them in, behind the Iron Curtain or not, would JAT count as the biggest Western aircraft operator in Eastern Europe? They flew everything from Convairs to Caravelles to DC3s, DC6s, DC9s and 10s as well as 707s, 727s and 737s.


Yugoslavia wasnt really part of the Soviet bloc... it was more neutral. They had a access to soviet types as well though not with JAT... Aviogenex's Tu134 springs to mind.

Now to the original point... didn't a group of student pilots defect during A310 training in France or GDR? I seem to remember that coming up somewhere.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
bakestar
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:35 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:29 am

Would be amazing to see an Interflug retrojet for Lufthansa!
fly'nhi
 
dcajet
Posts: 4732
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:44 am

bakestar wrote:
Would be amazing to see an Interflug retrojet for Lufthansa!


Technically that would not be possible as Interflug was liquidated and never a part of Lufthansa AG.

Now... when the two German states were formed, in the GDR they took the name "Deutsche Lufthansa" for their national airline in the 50s, flying the IL-14s. Around the same time, and in the Federal Republic, Lufthansa AG was formed by acquiring the rights to the name Deutsche Luft Hansa used prior to the war. Thus, there were 2 Luftys for a few years, until the East Germans realized they had no legal basis to usurp the name and changed the airline's name to Interflug... or closed their version of LH and came up with Interflug. One of the two...can't remember with exactitude now...
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
JoKeR
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:56 am

northstardc4m wrote:
ClipperYankee wrote:
Depending on how you factor them in, behind the Iron Curtain or not, would JAT count as the biggest Western aircraft operator in Eastern Europe? They flew everything from Convairs to Caravelles to DC3s, DC6s, DC9s and 10s as well as 707s, 727s and 737s.


Yugoslavia wasnt really part of the Soviet bloc... it was more neutral. They had a access to soviet types as well though not with JAT... Aviogenex's Tu134 springs to mind.

Now to the original point... didn't a group of student pilots defect during A310 training in France or GDR? I seem to remember that coming up somewhere.


You’re right-Yugoslavia was not part of the Iron Curtain and the country’s airlines such as JAT, Aviogenex and Adria operated predominantly Western types, though JAT had a few IL-14s as a gift from the Soviets but got rid of them after only 2-3 years. Aviogenx operated the TU-134 but these too were replaced by 737-200. Adria was a loyal Douglas operator before switching to Airbus.
 
SpaceshipDC10
Topic Author
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:28 am

Melbourne wrote:
Well it wasn't totally out of the ordinary as LOT and Malev had ordered Boeing aircraft before the end of Communist rule and not to mention TAROM operated 707s for a number of years.


Yes, but it was East Germany, the place where idealized communist proaganda was displayed, hence my surprise regarding western-built aircraft acquisition. Of course, as mentionned, East Germany was bankrupt anf Gorbatchev chnaged the rules so it make sense.

Regrding Malev, they only had three second hand B737s before the end of the Communist rule, and Hungary was a bit different politicaly speaking than East Germany. As fot LOT, they indeed took delivery of brand new Boeings in Spring 1989, but Poland wasn't East Germany with West Berlin in the middle of a red zone.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2061
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:44 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Melbourne wrote:
Well it wasn't totally out of the ordinary as LOT and Malev had ordered Boeing aircraft before the end of Communist rule and not to mention TAROM operated 707s for a number of years.


Yes, but it was East Germany, the place where idealized communist proaganda was displayed, hence my surprise regarding western-built aircraft acquisition. Of course, as mentionned, East Germany was bankrupt anf Gorbatchev chnaged the rules so it make sense.

Regrding Malev, they only had three second hand B737s before the end of the Communist rule, and Hungary was a bit different politicaly speaking than East Germany. As fot LOT, they indeed took delivery of brand new Boeings in Spring 1989, but Poland wasn't East Germany with West Berlin in the middle of a red zone.

It's not just East Germany but also Interflug who had massive economical problems. They were burning lots of subsidies by flying those old Il-62 and the soviet block didn't really have anything competitive to offer. Most other carriers had retired the 707 and DC-8, which were of comparable technology, by the early 80s. The Il-96 and Tu-204 came too late.
It also wasn't just that Eastern Germany didn't want western aircraft but the export to the soviet bloc of advanced tech like jets was not permitted
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 566
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:19 am

mxaxai wrote:
It also wasn't just that Eastern Germany didn't want western aircraft but the export to the soviet bloc of advanced tech like jets was not permitted


This :checkmark:

I remember when the Interflug A310 deal was done the FADECs on the CF6s had to have tamper-proof seals applied and be returned to the West for servicing etc. as the Soviet bloc at the time had no digital engine controls and it was classed as "dual-use" technology
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:22 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
How come Interflug got their A310s even before the wall fell down? I mean, it was still communist East Germany when they were ordered and received.


Quite extensive trade had been going on between West Germany and East Germany.
an wide range of items ( plastics, furniture, household appliances, electronics )
sold by IKEA, Otto, Neckermann, ... were "Made in DDR".
Large industrial sites and Highways (A24) were built with western help.
At least a decade before the wall was taken down.

At the time Interflug found themselfes unable to fly competitively to western destinations
with COMECON airframes. So they bartered for Airbus frames. :-)

Reagan came as visitor for the final show.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Melbourne
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:45 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Melbourne wrote:
Well it wasn't totally out of the ordinary as LOT and Malev had ordered Boeing aircraft before the end of Communist rule and not to mention TAROM operated 707s for a number of years.


Yes, but it was East Germany, the place where idealized communist proaganda was displayed, hence my surprise regarding western-built aircraft acquisition. Of course, as mentionned, East Germany was bankrupt anf Gorbatchev chnaged the rules so it make sense.

Regrding Malev, they only had three second hand B737s before the end of the Communist rule, and Hungary was a bit different politicaly speaking than East Germany. As fot LOT, they indeed took delivery of brand new Boeings in Spring 1989, but Poland wasn't East Germany with West Berlin in the middle of a red zone.


Yes Poland wasn't East Germany is was only one of the most loyal "Warsaw" pact members, I mean the proof is in the pudding with the name right? Romania may have been quasi neutral but it was an active Warsaw pact member state with a ruthless Communist dictatorship. The Hungarians were none the less no less close to Moscow than East Germany. I don't know if you would know but the USSR was quite close to acquiring Lockheed L1011 aircraft for Aeroflot and even for rights to produce them in Russia.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:16 am

Melbourne wrote:
Yes Poland wasn't East Germany is was only one of the most loyal "Warsaw" pact members, I mean the proof is in the pudding with the name right? Romania may have been quasi neutral but it was an active Warsaw pact member state with a ruthless Communist dictatorship. The Hungarians were none the less no less close to Moscow than East Germany. I don't know if you would know but the USSR was quite close to acquiring Lockheed L1011 aircraft for Aeroflot and even for rights to produce them in Russia.


Always interesting to read the misconceptions about all those
"Communist Dictatorships" reigning with iron fists over a hapless population.

Back, beginning in the late 70ties a constantly rising stream of polish Polsky Fiat 126 and some 125 traveled into the west
for work and back home filled to the window line with goodies thumbing their noses at the DDR population.
Same for the Soviet fleet of tractor/trailer combos exchanging goods.
The iron curtain was about as impenetrable as a big pored sieve.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Noshow
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:43 pm

Coming back to the original question:
How come Interflug got their A310s even before the wall fell down?

Interflug urgently wanted airplanes that could go to Cuba nonstop. So no passengers could escape anymore like when they refueled in Canada with the Il-62.

West german politician Franz Josef Strauß long time governor of the state of Bavaria and board member at Airbus provided the east germans with west german funding guarantees to lease those three A310 and their GE engines. East Germany never owned them, West Germany did. It was a tricky business back then with the COCOM list of dual use military stuff forbidden to enter the east. So all black box maintenance was done at Lufthansa Technik in Hamburg. The A310-300 got additional belly tanks to make Cuba nonstop.

After the wall came down unified Germany used those airplanes at Luftwaffe as transports and VIP transports.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24611
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:07 pm

bakestar wrote:
Would be amazing to see an Interflug retrojet for Lufthansa!


It certainly would but might not be a good move politically. Many look back on those times with negative ideas.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9959
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:24 pm

They nearly had a very nasty accident with one of those A310s near Moscow, back in (I think) 1992. They were attempting a GA, which occurred at quite a high pitch and the flight crew, used to the IL62 (which had a rather more laid back climb rate) tried to disconnect the AP, which led to the aircraft going into a very scary series of high pitch/stall maneouvres, before finally landing at SVO.

Legend has it that one of the crew, frustrated at the aircraft's manoeuvres, referred to "scheisse" capitalist technology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJViilcDTyw
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:08 pm

OA260 wrote:
bakestar wrote:
Would be amazing to see an Interflug retrojet for Lufthansa!


It certainly would but might not be a good move politically. Many look back on those times with negative ideas.


Right.
The West trashed all our hard working Volkseigene Betriebe to float their Wessi Boat.
Quite a lot of DDR Folklore ( some not unfounded ) around.

Interflug had an aging fleet of Soviet aircraft. Fuel guzzling and loud and thus expensive to operate.
They had a reasonably extensive network that had to compete on a range of routes with western airlines.

To increase the hurt LOT had gotten their hands on some B767.

Obviously the A310 were a gift from Bavarian heaven.


If you ever feel bored out there is a GDR TV series around: "Treffpunkt Flughafen".
Murphy is an optimist
 
Noshow
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:07 am

In a country that would shoot you for trying to flee, an airline, the only one, became some sort of a dream environment.
Below the line Interflug had some old fleet, a strange route structure, lost their main market, was not ready for competition or set up to make profits while being controlled by military staff (their CEO was an air force general, all pilots where reserve officers), communist party and Stasi secret police. There was zero hope to keep it alive. Who should have paid for it? The taxpayer?
However many of their more aviation related and technical and trade staff ended up in other companies and continue to do so successfully.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2154
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:39 am

WIederling wrote:
If you ever feel bored out there is a GDR TV series around: "Treffpunkt Flughafen".


You mean this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwsQdkcCrtk

Interesting series, but since there's no English subtitle I couldn't understand a thing...
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
Noshow
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:58 am

It's like a cheapo soap opera with quite a bit of propanda between the lines about the sinister west and the friendship inside the east. The airplane and airport scenes are nice. It feels like they wanted to make the outside world not to look overly attractive for their state TV viewers that were not permitted to travel anywhere else than Czechoslovakia. Most east germans never ever flew on an airplane back then.
That link looks like being blocked for german sites.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:58 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
WIederling wrote:
If you ever feel bored out there is a GDR TV series around: "Treffpunkt Flughafen".


You mean this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwsQdkcCrtk

Interesting series, but since there's no English subtitle I couldn't understand a thing...


Looks like, Though there is a copyright "visible beep" from my ( German ) IP .
Language skills are a boon on occasion. For tech porn you get the gist even with a language barrier in place.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:03 pm

Noshow wrote:
It's like a cheapo soap opera with quite a bit of propanda between the lines about the sinister west and the friendship inside the east.


That level of polarization ( only in the reverse) afaics was below the level of what you get in US productions.
( always surprised how simplistic black and white views are generated and the target audience gobbles it down
as a view into the real world. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
clipperlondon
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:43 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:18 pm

dcajet wrote:
Melbourne wrote:
Well it wasn't totally out of the ordinary as LOT and Malev had ordered Boeing aircraft before the end of Communist rule and not to mention TAROM operated 707s for a number of years.


Very true. Towards the mid-80s, Gorby's perestroika had given COMECON members additional freedoms, such as procuring aircraft from the west. As I said earlier on here, the GDR, once communism's showcase to the world in the 60s and 70s was pretty much broke in the 80s and the Federal Republic stepped in with loans to assist and Interflug turned to Airbus to replace those ageing IL-62Ms.

ClipperYankee wrote:
Depending on how you factor them in, behind the Iron Curtain or not, would JAT count as the biggest Western aircraft operator in Eastern Europe? They flew everything from Convairs to Caravelles to DC3s, DC6s, DC9s and 10s as well as 707s, 727s and 737s.


The former Yugoslavia, under Tito had always marched to its own drummer, more a part of the non aligned countries movement back in the 70s. Romania's Nicolae Ceausescu also broke with the Moscow mothership when he criticized the 1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. While Romania remained a brutal communist dictatorship, it pursued a more independent course from Moscow. TAROM, the national airline, procured BAC 1-11s and 707s.


Let's not forget the Romanian BAC1-11s manufactured in Romania. They were called Rombac 1-11 IIRC. I think the deal was finalised as part of the State visit to the UK of Ceausescu & his ghastly wife, The Queen gave them gongs too!
 
Noshow
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:19 pm

That level of polarization ( only in the reverse) afaics was below the level of what you get in US productions.


I remember from that series some black and white characters like "good" people from developing communist countries in Africa and some "bad" capitalist imperialist westerners trying to lure the brave moralist crew into something bad all the time. It was heavy handed on the propaganda message.

PS: I lived in West-Berlin at that time. We could watch east german tv back then. Since being some aviation nut for quite some time I watched it back then.
There was a famous spotter hill next to the wall at the southernmost edge of west Berlin where you could visually watch and hear the traffic at Schönefeld airport back then. All those Ils and Tus. And Schönefeld airport had some nice spotters terrace itself. But you needed paperwork and money to go to the east.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4732
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:06 pm

clipperlondon wrote:
Let's not forget the Romanian BAC1-11s manufactured in Romania. They were called Rombac 1-11 IIRC. I think the deal was finalised as part of the State visit to the UK of Ceausescu & his ghastly wife, The Queen gave them gongs too!


Certainly. Didn't some of those ROMBAC 1-11s eventually find their way to the UK after the fall of the Ceausescus?
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9959
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:34 pm

dcajet wrote:
clipperlondon wrote:
Let's not forget the Romanian BAC1-11s manufactured in Romania. They were called Rombac 1-11 IIRC. I think the deal was finalised as part of the State visit to the UK of Ceausescu & his ghastly wife, The Queen gave them gongs too!


Certainly. Didn't some of those ROMBAC 1-11s eventually find their way to the UK after the fall of the Ceausescus?


Yes, some of them went to an odd sounding Irish company, which set up a British subsidiary, London European, which didn't last long. The One Elevens then went back to the Irish company, which later replaced them with 737s. Not sure what happened next, but I think they disappeared; no one ever heard of them again. The One Elevens went back to Romania.

I'm not sure how many Rombac One Elevens were actually produced entirely there, but not many.

All of the East European flag carriers operated western types. Malev introduced 737-200s, then the next generation of 737s. Balkan was a relatively early operator of A320s and later also operated 767s. I'm always curious to learn about the culture shock to those carriers - and particularly their flight crews - of moving from 4 or 5 person-crew Tu-154s/IL62s, to two crew 767s, A320s (imagine moving from a Tu-154 to an A320 in a single step; even crews flying from existing western types had issues!). Thankfully, all of this happened with very little loss of life; Tarom lost an A310 back in 1995, but that was about it. (Aeroflot lost an A310, but for a completely different reason).
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:48 pm

Since this thread has come back to life...
dcajet wrote:
Very true. Towards the mid-80s, Gorby's perestroika had given COMECON members additional freedoms, such as procuring aircraft from the west. As I said earlier on here, the GDR, once communism's showcase to the world in the 60s and 70s was pretty much broke in the 80s and the Federal Republic stepped in with loans to assist and Interflug turned to Airbus to replace those ageing IL-62Ms.

Ageing Il-62Ms? What?
Interflug received it's first A310 in mid 1989.

Regarding the Il-62M fleet; at that point DM-SEL was 10 years old, DM-SEI a tad younger (?), DDR-SEN arrived in 1982,
DDR-SEO & -SEP in 1984, DDR-SER in 1985, DDR-SES & -SET in 1986,
DDR-SEU & SEV in 1987, DDR-SEW in 1988, and you can probably see where this is going now....

The last two Il-62Ms, DDR-SEY and DDR-SEZ were only delivered in 1989 just as the first A310 arrived. :spin:

I guess what you might have been trying to say was that the design was old. :scratchchin:

Except the Il-62 was amongst the very last of the original jet airliners, introduced in 1967, entering into service just ahead of the other dinosaur of that age, the Boeing 737. :rotfl:

Obviously I have to agree that in many respects it wasn't as advanced as later western airliners, and that by 1989 it was even further behind the curve (despite the major update and new engines in 1974)
But there really is no need to exaggerate the facts.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4732
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:01 pm

You must be rather bored on this Saturday if the word "ageing" elicits such a response, emoticons and all... Really?

They may have been "newish" chronologically, but those IL-62Ms were obsolete by the time the A310s made it to Interflug. They hadn't aged well. The rest is just semantics.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4971
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:11 pm

dcajet wrote:
You must be rather bored on this Saturday if the word "ageing" elicits such a response, emoticons and all... Really?

They may have been "newish" chronologically, but those IL-62Ms were obsolete by the time the A310s made it to Interflug. They hadn't aged well. The rest is just semantics.


Well, to be fair, I'm glad it was pointed out. Saying that they were "replacing aging IL-62Ms" gave me the impression that those aircraft in the fleet were old.

The fact is, they were not.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
FCOTSTW
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:18 pm

ClipperYankee wrote:
Depending on how you factor them in, behind the Iron Curtain or not, would JAT count as the biggest Western aircraft operator in Eastern Europe? They flew everything from Convairs to Caravelles to DC3s, DC6s, DC9s and 10s as well as 707s, 727s and 737s.


Correct, but Tito' s Yugoslavia, although socialist, was a non-aligned country (neither pro-Nato, not Warsaw Pact). This gave them some space in terms of aircraft choices. As a matter of fact, JAT was offering solid discounted tickets Western Europe to JFK, where it would fly people to BEG (it even paid for overnight accommodations) and then flew them to JFK on their DC10s. In the 80s, those tickets were 30% to 50% cheaper than PA, TW, or any of the European main (flag) carriers.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4732
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:22 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
dcajet wrote:
You must be rather bored on this Saturday if the word "ageing" elicits such a response, emoticons and all... Really?

They may have been "newish" chronologically, but those IL-62Ms were obsolete by the time the A310s made it to Interflug. They hadn't aged well. The rest is just semantics.


Well, to be fair, I'm glad it was pointed out. Saying that they were "replacing aging IL-62Ms" gave me the impression that those aircraft in the fleet were old.

The fact is, they were not.


But as I am sure you well know, airlines just don't replace aircraft because they are old chronologically but for a multitude of reasons, from economics to availabilty of support to... age. By 1989-1990, those IL-62s were obsolete, regardless of when they had been manufactured.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:28 pm

Where did the IL-62Ms go after leaving Interflug? SU or one of the new airlines started with the break up SU,at one point HY had IL-62Ms as well as A310-300. Tashkent had a major repair facility for IL-62's.
 
LH707330
Posts: 2377
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:45 pm

WIederling wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
WIederling wrote:
If you ever feel bored out there is a GDR TV series around: "Treffpunkt Flughafen".


You mean this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwsQdkcCrtk

Interesting series, but since there's no English subtitle I couldn't understand a thing...


Looks like, Though there is a copyright "visible beep" from my ( German ) IP .
Language skills are a boon on occasion. For tech porn you get the gist even with a language barrier in place.

Ha ha that's classic! I didn't realize they used km/h and meters while flying in the DDR.
 
shankly
Posts: 1404
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:53 pm

The first Western aircraft operated behind the curtain were a pair of Bristol Britannias which CSA leased from Cubana (61-69).

One aircraft operated for 6 years (63-69) in CSA colours and was a regular visitor to the UK for maintenance at Marshalls Cambridge
L1011 - P F M
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:53 pm

LH707330 wrote:
Ha ha that's classic! I didn't realize they used km/h and meters while flying in the DDR.


Metric was pretty standard in Europe ( beyond the UK ) from first days of airships on. i.e. 1905+
This changed for the West after WWII. Soviets and COMECON stayed metric.

How did Japan handle this? For tech they seem to have mostly looked to Europe/Germany?
Murphy is an optimist
 
LH707330
Posts: 2377
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:06 pm

WIederling wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
Ha ha that's classic! I didn't realize they used km/h and meters while flying in the DDR.


Metric was pretty standard in Europe ( beyond the UK ) from first days of airships on. i.e. 1905+
This changed for the West after WWII. Soviets and COMECON stayed metric.

How did Japan handle this? For tech they seem to have mostly looked to Europe/Germany?

Good question. I know Japan had a strong UK influence, especially visible in their naval hardware, so I wonder if they used nautical units and transferred those into aviation as well. After WWII, I wager they went nm/feet, as they were more closely aligned with the US moving forward.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:13 pm

georgiabill wrote:
Where did the IL-62Ms go after leaving Interflug? SU or one of the new airlines started with the break up SU,at one point HY had IL-62Ms as well as A310-300. Tashkent had a major repair facility for IL-62's.

Ask, and ye shall receive...
A very "obsolete" RA-86562 (ex DM-SEK), still looking good in 2008, and the equally "obsolete" RA-86564 (ex DM-SEL) being wiped out by HL7414 at ANC in 1998. :cry:


UK-86573 (ex DDR-SEM) at LHR in 1996, filling in for the usual A310 :rotfl: , and SU-ZDA (ex DDR-SEP) ending its days in a sandpit in Cairo.


Basically confirming what you said; all back to SU, and then passed on to outfits such as Uzbekistan Airways.

I'll leave you with a fine sight from 2007; RA-86579 (ex DDR-SEZ) climbing out of Sochi.

Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Kilopond
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:48 pm

WIederling wrote:
[...]Metric was pretty standard in Europe ( beyond the UK ) from first days of airships on. i.e. 1905+
This changed for the West after WWII. Soviets and COMECON stayed metric.

How did Japan handle this?[...]


This problem never existed because Japanese aviation had been completely grounded in 1945. Only in 1951 Japanese nationals had been allowed to engage in aviation again. (By the way, for the Germanies the no-fly-zone period lasted four years longer).
 
Noshow
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:22 pm

That is for commercial flying by german civil airplanes. The east german police "Aero Club" startet it's own flying as early as 1952 including on the "general aviation aircraft" Mig-15.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:37 pm

Noshow wrote:
That level of polarization ( only in the reverse) afaics was below the level of what you get in US productions.


I remember from that series some black and white characters like "good" people from developing communist countries in Africa and some "bad" capitalist imperialist westerners trying to lure the brave moralist crew into something bad all the time. It was heavy handed on the propaganda message.

PS: I lived in West-Berlin at that time. We could watch east german tv back then. Since being some aviation nut for quite some time I watched it back then.
There was a famous spotter hill next to the wall at the southernmost edge of west Berlin where you could visually watch and hear the traffic at Schönefeld airport back then. All those Ils and Tus. And Schönefeld airport had some nice spotters terrace itself. But you needed paperwork and money to go to the east.


I have always wished I had been able to follow up my college years with a year of study of the German language (I still am quite good at it) in West Berlin. Had I known about it, I'd have been the geeky 23-year old photographing everything at Tegel, Templehof, and Schönefeld from the park you describe.

After November 9, 1989, it became "Inter-who?"

I have been to Berlin, and it is an amazing city - my next trip I plan on driving out the Lady Agnes Interflug IL-62 west of the city. Its registry of DDR-SEG matches my initials (Scott Emerick Grant).
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:44 pm

shankly wrote:
The first Western aircraft operated behind the curtain were a pair of Bristol Britannias which CSA leased from Cubana (61-69).

One aircraft operated for 6 years (63-69) in CSA colours and was a regular visitor to the UK for maintenance at Marshalls Cambridge

Whilst I would love that to be true, I have the following LOT to offer that disagrees.
Approximate entry dates are 1946, 1957 and 1962 respectively.


LOT also purchased five French SE.161 Languedoc in 1947, grounded them in 1948, and scrapped them in 1950. :scratchchin:
Those were the days, eh?
Naturally photographs are somewhat scarce, so here is an Air France example because I'm betting most people have no idea what I'm talking about.
Image

Apparently the problem was unreliable engines...
On 31 May 1948 Languedoc SP-LDA made a gear-up landing after three engines failed in flight. The aircraft was repaired and returned to Poland but did not re-enter service.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19480531-1
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Lapplander800
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:56 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:45 pm

An interesting article about aircraft sales to the Eastern Block in the 1980s

https://www.joc.com/airbus-wins-order-u ... 00124.html
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:47 pm

shankly wrote:
The first Western aircraft operated behind the curtain were a pair of Bristol Britannias which CSA leased from Cubana (61-69).

One aircraft operated for 6 years (63-69) in CSA colours and was a regular visitor to the UK for maintenance at Marshalls Cambridge


And there's more.... CSA also operated C-47s (they got everywhere :lol: )
Wikipedia wrote:
In 1950, ČSA became the world's first victim of a mass {triple} hijacking.

Three Douglas Dakota airliners landed in the morning of 24 March near Munich instead of at Prague: the first from Brno, at 08:20, the second from Moravská Ostrava at 08:40, and the third one from Bratislava at 09:20

What Wikipedia omits to add is that 26 of the 85 people on these C-47s were part of the hijack, including seven of the aircrew who were ex RAF pilots. The remainder were family members travelling as passengers, who in each case had to fly on different a/c from the pilot who was their relative (husband/father).

Photos of OK-WDR, OK-WDS and especially OK-WAR are difficult to find.

Later that same year (1950) C-47 OK-WAA with a crew of ex RAF pilots, along with their wives and children, filled up with extra fuel and made it all the way to RAF Manston in Kent.
Image

Strange times indeed.
And hugely off-topic, except....in a curious twist of fate, OK-WAA came back to life as … would you believe it... a CSA A310. :rotfl:
I wonder if it carried a small plaque somewhere on board, acknowledging those brave people from 60 years before.


And just to round things off; here is one of those beautiful Britannias, at LHR in 1967 :cry:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:32 am

Ty SheikhDjbouti for the info. Surprised that those relativity young IL's did not find homes with CU or JS
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:40 am

georgiabill wrote:
Ty SheikhDjbouti for the info. Surprised that those relativity young IL's did not find homes with CU or JS

They already had their own...
 
User avatar
Melbourne
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:40 am

georgiabill wrote:
Ty SheikhDjbouti for the info. Surprised that those relativity young IL's did not find homes with CU or JS


Maybe the fact that CU has Il-62Ms that were basically the same age as the Interflug frames.

JS Il-62Ms were at the exact time basically new with the eldest being 9 years old by 1989 and the newest being delivered in January of 1989.
 
debonair
Posts: 3909
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:42 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You mean this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwsQdkcCrtk

Interesting series, but since there's no English subtitle I couldn't understand a thing...


It was pure propaganda - believe, it is much better NOT to understand a word of this political bull :tapedshut: ! E.g. in one part, the crew is having an medical emergency on-board and needs to divert. But guess what - the airspace is closed by the Westerners for military missile tests, so the Copilot can start a discussion of arming forces in the West compared to the East/Soviet part of the world. Luckily, in the end the plane is reaching Berlin-Schönefeld, the capital of beautiful, modern Eastern Germany(GDR), with the best medical care anywhere seen (yeah right!)...
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Interflug and their A310s

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:24 pm

debonair wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
You mean this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwsQdkcCrtk

Interesting series, but since there's no English subtitle I couldn't understand a thing...


It was pure propaganda - believe, it is much better NOT to understand a word of this political bull :tapedshut: ! E.g. in one part, the crew is having an medical emergency on-board and needs to divert. But guess what - the airspace is closed by the Westerners for military missile tests, so the Copilot can start a discussion of arming forces in the West compared to the East/Soviet part of the world. Luckily, in the end the plane is reaching Berlin-Schönefeld, the capital of beautiful, modern Eastern Germany(GDR), with the best medical care anywhere seen (yeah right!)...


And in what way is that different from US productions ( with parties reversed ).
People see the splinter in other peoples eyes but do not notice the beam in their own.
Murphy is an optimist

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos