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USAirKid
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:31 am

747megatop wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Another solution could be remote checkin/passenger processor terminals at downtown Seattle + Downtown Bellevue & connect those with SeaTac, Boeing Field and Paine Field airfields by dedicated high speed train cars on Seatle Light rail's infrastructure. This way you have a bunch of checkin/passenger processing facilities geographically spread out in the region connected to a bunch of airfields. Then in realtime; depending on various factors - weather, air traffic congestion, type of plane etc etc planes could land on any of the runways in any of the air fields [it is a demand supply matching type of scenario]. Details would obviously have to worked out for example, what about international flights; where would customs happen and would passengers have to recheck luggage to reclaim at their destination remote terminal.
If you really think of it; there is no dearth of runways for the seattle region in general - SEA (3 runways), BFI (1 runway) & PAE (3 runways).

A concept of remote checkin terminal is not unique and already exists in operation at Hong Kong - https://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/en_US/ ... rture.html. The concept just needs to be tweaked and scaled out to match supply & demand in a multiple airfield situation like most US cities. This combined with end around taxiways (ATL style) for Seatac can significantly increase passenger capacity in the SeaTac region.


Are check in facilities really a roadblock anymore? That was a problem in the day of paper tickets when everyone had to physically check in at a desk. The major roadblocks today tend to be around security, gate space, runway capacity, etc.. But check in has to be low on the list nowadays.

Well, if dedicated high speed train cars can whisk passengers between remote processors and gates the concept could still be viable. It is similar to an ATL style setup with people mover between satellites and processor..the only thing here is that the satellites+processors are spread out over multiple air fields and locations ALL being interconnected by dedicated high speed (non stop) train cars running on Seattle Light Rail infrastructure. You could have security check clearance at these remote checkins with baggage drop off & baggage reclaim and other services at these remote processors. Basically a loosely coupled architecture better suited to managing the 7 runways accross greater Seattle region in a cohesive fashion matching supply - demand in real time.


If you're suggesting that people clear security at a remote location, that turns into a whole other ball of wax, because you'd have to have a separate station connecting into Sound Transit's Link Light Rail system, which will cost several hundred million, on each side. That being said Link light rail is already planned to be at headway capacity on the line that serves downtown Seattle to SeaTac.

The other option is to run trains on the freight lines (like Amtrak and Sound Transit's Sounder), in that case you probably could reuse King Street Station, but place extra security around it. You'd still have to build a spur and another station to the airport, plus pay BNSF for the use of their track. Its not really a good use of funds.

ER757 wrote:
BFI is closer, but WN tried that and was rebuffed quickly by the NIMBYs.

747megatop wrote:
Of course, Boeing will have to say yes I guess?


Nope, King County owns Boeing field. (The King County Sheriff's department provides ARFF services. Yes, the sheriff, the county doesn't have a county wide fire department.)

AFAIK, the county rebuffed WN, not NIMBY's. They investigated if the airfield and surrounding infrastructure would be able to serve commercial service (not just WN, but whomever wanted to fly from there.) and they determined that the infrastructure wasn't there, nor was there enough space to do so.

TBH, I'm not sure how serious WN's suggestion for using BFI was, as BFI is pretty constrained from a growth perspective. (It makes MDW look like a cake walk!) I've driven around the area a bit but I just looked around at the map to reinforce my knowledge of the area around BFI. The thing I'm not really sure about adding commercial service to BFI is where does the terminal go? BFI is pretty closely hemmed in by Airport Way to the East, and Marginal Way to the West, Ellis Ave to the North, and Norfolk (or is it Boeing Access Road?) to the South. Then you'd also have to account for parking and good access to the highways. Presuming the terminal goes on the east side of the airport, connecting to I5 is doable, however the Corson Ave exit goes into the Georgetown neighborhood so it won't work, the Boeing Access Road exit might work, but the terminal would need rebuilt. Connecting to 509/99 is another ball of wax. Putting the terminal on the west side of the airport is a different conundrum. You also can't move Airport way to the east because there are rail lines and I5 on that side. You can't move Marginal Way because Boeing and the Museum of Flight likely aren't going to move their buildings. You might be able to convince Boeing to sell some of their buildings/leases, but I'm not sure how much that'd help.
 
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admanager
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:42 am

USAirKid wrote:
747megatop wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:

TBH, I'm not sure how serious WN's suggestion for using BFI was, as BFI is pretty constrained from a growth perspective. (It makes MDW look like a cake walk!) I've driven around the area a bit but I just looked around at the map to reinforce my knowledge of the area around BFI. The thing I'm not really sure about adding commercial service to BFI is where does the terminal go? BFI is pretty closely hemmed in by Airport Way to the East, and Marginal Way to the West, Ellis Ave to the North, and Norfolk (or is it Boeing Access Road?) to the South. Then you'd also have to account for parking and good access to the highways. Presuming the terminal goes on the east side of the airport, connecting to I5 is doable, however the Corson Ave exit goes into the Georgetown neighborhood so it won't work, the Boeing Access Road exit might work, but the terminal would need rebuilt. Connecting to 509/99 is another ball of wax. Putting the terminal on the west side of the airport is a different conundrum. You also can't move Airport way to the east because there are rail lines and I5 on that side. You can't move Marginal Way because Boeing and the Museum of Flight likely aren't going to move their buildings. You might be able to convince Boeing to sell some of their buildings/leases, but I'm not sure how much that'd help.

Well as of this spring the old Unified Grocers warehouse on the south end of Boeing field was vacated (south of Norfolk St.). it's a couple million square feet of empty warehouse space. Other than lack of roadways (Light rail goes right by this property). It would be a decent spot for a greenfield terminal development.
 
evank516
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:35 pm

I mean, BLI is 93 miles from SEA and 62 miles from PAE. Where is the majority of the population of the SeaTac area located? I really don't know much about the area, but if they wanted a third airport, how far fetched would BLI be?
 
WestendRaider
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:02 pm

Here's a link to detailed analysis of options for expanding capacity at SeaTac. The report is very comprehensive and covers everything from runways to cargo facilities. It was prepared for the Port of Seattle by a consortium of architectural firms:
https://www.portseattle.org/sites/defau ... atives.pdf

A key highlight for me are the proposed options for expanding gate capacity at SeaTac:
Image
 
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smithbs
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:56 pm

mict wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Potential options -

1) Open up Paine field and/or Boeing Field to limited domestic flights (regional & short haul maybe [less than 3 hours flying time as an example]?) on 737/318/319/320 & regional jets/turbo props serving O&D traffic headed for the Puget sound region. Of course, Boeing will have to say yes I guess? This will free up valuable slots in SeaTac.


Problem is not Boeing but the Snohomish County. They were already extremely opposed to the 2 gate operation and even appealed the decision in court of appeal (they lost).
So getting more flights out of PAE is going to be a challenge for sure. (But certainly not as challenging as building the airport on an Island :lol: )


I think the door to commercial service has been cracked open at PAE, and it will only open wider once service starts. Local residents may not appreciate it, but "progress" gains a momentum of its own once it finds some traction.
 
ScottB
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:04 pm

747megatop wrote:
It is similar to an ATL style setup with people mover between satellites and processor..the only thing here is that the satellites+processors are spread out over multiple air fields and locations ALL being interconnected by dedicated high speed (non stop) train cars running on Seattle Light Rail infrastructure. You could have security check clearance at these remote checkins with baggage drop off & baggage reclaim and other services at these remote processors.


Sure, good luck running high speed trains on tracks designed for light rail. Not just that, but what do you do about the light rail service already using the tracks? Your proposed high-speed trains can't pass the slower light rail trains without building additional tracks and the light rail runs through downtown Seattle in tunnels, so you'd need to build tunnels. And... high speed trains don't do well on curves; have you actually looked at the route of the Link light rail? Curves galore!

USAirKid wrote:
AFAIK, the county rebuffed WN, not NIMBY's. They investigated if the airfield and surrounding infrastructure would be able to serve commercial service (not just WN, but whomever wanted to fly from there.) and they determined that the infrastructure wasn't there, nor was there enough space to do so.

TBH, I'm not sure how serious WN's suggestion for using BFI was, as BFI is pretty constrained from a growth perspective.


WN's proposal was completely serious. They were offering to fund the terminal themselves and proposed building it off Airport Way next to the current terminal. AS threw a monkey wrench into the process by proposing its own terminal at BFI; combined the two operations would have gone over the service cap of 13 gates and 130 flights. But yeah, the proposal was ultimately killed by NIMBYs as well as political maneuvering by AS.

https://www.aviationpros.com/news/10406 ... eing-field
 
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flyPIT
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:11 pm

WestendRaider wrote:
A key highlight for me are the proposed options for expanding gate capacity at SeaTac:
Image


What a hodgepodge Frankenstein airport SEA is turning in to. Really began when they added the two satellites in the 1970's instead of just extending the existing B and C concourses, and going from there. Something like this seems so much more logical:

Image
FLYi
 
USAirKid
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Re: New airport for Seattle-Tacoma Region

Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:39 pm

ScottB wrote:
WN's proposal was completely serious. They were offering to fund the terminal themselves and proposed building it off Airport Way next to the current terminal. AS threw a monkey wrench into the process by proposing its own terminal at BFI; combined the two operations would have gone over the service cap of 13 gates and 130 flights. But yeah, the proposal was ultimately killed by NIMBYs as well as political maneuvering by AS.

https://www.aviationpros.com/news/10406 ... eing-field


Hrm, I might go look up their plans. I'm curious what they were planning to do to provide enough parking and other things.

Yeah, and you're right about NIMBYs.. From the article "Magnolia and Georgetown residents have complained about the noise that would be generated by 737s." Magnolia residents have raised the art of being NIMBYs to a well oiled machine.
 
YYZORD
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Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:40 am

There's many articies going around that SEA is to hit ultimate capacity in the coming 15 years and a reliever or replacement airport is needed in the area, kinda like an LGA or EWR. I was just curious to know where they can build such a massive facility as the Seattle area is known for having limited land for development as we see housing prices rise and unlike other american cities, they build less suburban sprawl and more going upwards like densification due to limited land.

Here is the article link, but my question is where can they build such a reliever or SEA replacement facility?

https://q13fox.com/2019/01/31/another-a ... sh-for-it/
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:48 am

Soon Paine Field (PAE) in Everett will be opening. United Airlines will be offering I think 6 flights to SFO x 4 and DEN x 2. Alaska will be offering flights to SFO, SJC, LAX, SNA, SAN, PHX, LAS and PDX. I believe for Alaska it is 4 flights a day to SFO and LAX, 3 flights a day to PDX, 2 flights a day to LAS, SJC and SAN, and one flight a day to PHX. Give me a second and I'll get a link to the schedule.
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:49 am

Here is the schedule: https://www.heraldnet.com/business/weve ... r-service/

Alaska was going to start the first flight in less than 2 weeks, but due to the federal government shutdown, that date has been pushed back. United was planning on starting flights at the end of March. Both airlines will be using E175's.
 
HAL
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:51 am

That noise that sounds like rain on a tin roof is actually thousands of Puget Sound residents slapping their foreheads. This has been making the rounds for decades. I came up here to go to college in the early 80s and they were talking about a second airport back then. But as now (as back then), they run into the same major problems - noise and space.

Personally I think the best bet would be striking a deal with the Air Force to use McChord field in Tacoma as a second reliever. Much as Paine Field will do so for the north part of the area, McChord could do it for the south. Pretty much any other location would run up against issues with transporting people to/from the airport, because the area already has the major freeway going full length of the Sound and I don't think there's any appetite to construct a new major highway to get to some remote location just for a new airport. And if you keep the new airport close to I-5, the cost of buying out the required neighborhoods would quickly price that airport out of existence.

In contrast to what the article said, there are many metropolitan areas with just one airport. Seattle will soon have two, and I think that's probably enough.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:52 am

Yes but that is not going to help relieve SEA at all in the future, only 24 daily flights. They can't turn PAE into a completely SEA reliever or replacement cause of limited slots.

SeaDoo wrote:
Soon Paine Field (PAE) in Everett will be opening. United Airlines will be offering I think 6 flights to SFO x 4 and DEN x 2. Alaska will be offering flights to SFO, SJC, LAX, SNA, SAN, PHX, LAS and PDX. I believe for Alaska it is 4 flights a day to SFO and LAX, 3 flights a day to PDX, 2 flights a day to LAS, SJC and SAN, and one flight a day to PHX. Give me a second and I'll get a link to the schedule.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:59 am

Alaska can keep growing by flowing more traffic over pdx. There’s absolutely no reason why all of us in Alaska need to connect in
Seattle
 
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RWA380
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:36 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Alaska can keep growing by flowing more traffic over pdx. There’s absolutely no reason why all of us in Alaska need to connect in
Seattle


My bet is that PAE-PDX will be the first AS route out of PAE to switch over to mainline
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
jplatts
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:42 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Alaska can keep growing by flowing more traffic over pdx. There’s absolutely no reason why all of us in Alaska need to connect in
Seattle


I agree with your point, and AS also already offers connections to and from destinations in Alaska, Hawaii, and Oregon at PDX.
Last edited by jplatts on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:43 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Alaska can keep growing by flowing more traffic over pdx. There’s absolutely no reason why all of us in Alaska need to connect in
Seattle


That's one of the basics from Hub Economics 101 - don't compete with your own hub from a nearby hub. Smaller aircraft are less cost-efficient. You diminish frequencies - and thus connectivity - from the larger hub. You fail to build mass to serve lower-demand destinations, holding down destination count. CVG died for DTW. MEM died for ATL. CLE died for ORD. STL died for DFW and ORD. US killed PIT and BWI for PHL.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Alaska can keep growing by flowing more traffic over pdx. There’s absolutely no reason why all of us in Alaska need to connect in
Seattle


That's one of the basics from Hub Economics 101 - don't compete with your own hub from a nearby hub. Smaller aircraft are less cost-efficient. You diminish frequencies - and thus connectivity - from the larger hub. You fail to build mass to serve lower-demand destinations, holding down destination count. CVG died for DTW. MEM died for ATL. CLE died for ORD. STL died for DFW and ORD. US killed PIT and BWI for PHL.


This is a mis-application of Econ101. If you go on google and look at SeaTac you will see how small the airport is. It is built on a hilltop (no worries with sea level rise!), they had to build a new hilltop, literally, to get a third airstrip in. I suspect it ranks very high on passengers per acre, painfully so. It needs a reliever. There are airports in the vicinity - two in Tacoma, one in Everett, Boeing (actually King County), Moses Lake (long long way away -otherwise perfect - LOL), Bremerton which actually has room to grow (lot of forestry land around it), but inconveniently a ferry ride away. There are potentially fatal political flaws in all of the alternatives. Infrastructure (including freeways/rail/bridges) costs are also deal killers.

I have mentioned before that the state should buy development rights to several square miles of forestry land around Bremerton to enable a decent sized airport. It is a dumb idea, but it would be a backup - and the land could remain productive forestry - not a bad thing. The airport is due west of West Seattle.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
jplatts
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
That's one of the basics from Hub Economics 101 - don't compete with your own hub from a nearby hub. Smaller aircraft are less cost-efficient. You diminish frequencies - and thus connectivity - from the larger hub. You fail to build mass to serve lower-demand destinations, holding down destination count. CVG died for DTW. MEM died for ATL. CLE died for ORD. STL died for DFW and ORD. US killed PIT and BWI for PHL.


AA has hubs at LGA, JFK, PHL, and DCA on the East Coast, and AA can maintain hubs at both PHL and DCA, despite both PHL and DCA being near each other. DCA is a true connecting hub for AA since AA offers connections to many East Coast destinations at DCA. PHL is a major transatlantic gateway for AA

DL has a focus city at BOS and hubs at LGA and JFK, and DL is still expanding its BOS operation. DL is able to maintain its BOS focus city operation and NYC hubs, even with NYC and BOS being near each other.

AA's PHL and DCA hubs are closer to each other than AS's SEA and PDX hubs are. AS is also able to maintain a hub operation at PDX, even with AS having its main SEA hub nearby, even though AS's PDX hub is much smaller than its SEA hub.

In Southern California, AS has a focus city at SAN and a hub at LAX, and AS also has nonstop service out of LAX to destinations other than AS hubs or former VX destinations.
 
Fargo
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:55 pm

Where would they put another airport in Seattle? The area is surrounded by National Parks and forests, good luck trying to get environmental clearance.
 
twaconnie
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:26 pm

Fargo wrote:
Where would they put another airport in Seattle? The area is surrounded by National Parks and forests, good luck trying to get environmental clearance.


Would an off shore location work like they have in Japan and China?
 
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ER757
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:44 pm

twaconnie wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Where would they put another airport in Seattle? The area is surrounded by National Parks and forests, good luck trying to get environmental clearance.


Would an off shore location work like they have in Japan and China?

No - Puget Sound isn't wide enough to build an island and an airport without disrupting the shipping lanes. It's a non-starter.
Bremerton airport could be expanded - would be a pain to get to Seattle from there, but it could serve for folks headed towards Tacoma, Olympia and areas west of The Sound
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:44 pm

HAL wrote:
That noise that sounds like rain on a tin roof is actually thousands of Puget Sound residents slapping their foreheads. This has been making the rounds for decades. I came up here to go to college in the early 80s and they were talking about a second airport back then. But as now (as back then), they run into the same major problems - noise and space.

Personally I think the best bet would be striking a deal with the Air Force to use McChord field in Tacoma as a second reliever. Much as Paine Field will do so for the north part of the area, McChord could do it for the south. Pretty much any other location would run up against issues with transporting people to/from the airport, because the area already has the major freeway going full length of the Sound and I don't think there's any appetite to construct a new major highway to get to some remote location just for a new airport. And if you keep the new airport close to I-5, the cost of buying out the required neighborhoods would quickly price that airport out of existence.

In contrast to what the article said, there are many metropolitan areas with just one airport. Seattle will soon have two, and I think that's probably enough.

HAL


I tend to agree. They could set up McChord like CHS with a commercial terminal on one side and USAF on the other. The runway is plenty long enough for any airplane (except maybe the A380). There would be significant building costs, but not compared to others, with the exception of BFI. But we all know that story.

Theoretically, BFI still has airline service.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:41 pm

McChord is realistically the low hanging fruit option. I have no idea if it’s a viable option though. Proximity to I-5/167 and location on the south side of Tacoma but convenient to Olympia and the Narrows bridge are definite pluses.

A proposal (or drawing) was done back in the late 80’s I believe showing a runway built out in Elliott Bay connecting by road to downtown. As ER757 says, good luck getting that approved.

PAE is of course a good option but I’m not sure how much growth it wold be able to accommodate near term. It really would need to be able to handle at least 100 flights a day to be any sort of reliever.

Ultimately, I think SEA/PAE/McChord would be the perfect trio, but it’ll likely be SEA/PAE for years to come.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:32 pm

I was thinking that the only potential site there is to build an entirely new airport in the Seattle/Tacoma area is the farmland near Enumclaw/Buckley, WA area. It looks all open and seems like there is enough space to build a bigger facility than SEA. Also they could build a small expressway from WA 18 or WA 167 which leads to that farmland area where the future airport will be. What do you guys think?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:42 pm

YYZORD wrote:
I was thinking that the only potential site there is to build an entirely new airport in the Seattle/Tacoma area is the farmland near Enumclaw/Buckley, WA area. It looks all open and seems like there is enough space to build a bigger facility than SEA. Also they could build a small expressway from WA 18 or WA 167 which leads to that farmland area where the future airport will be. What do you guys think?


Knowing many people that live in Bonney Lake, Buckley, Enumclaw, and Maple Valley, I’ll just suggest that it’d be an uphill battle turning their communities from bedroom to flight path ones. I also think it tends to be colder and windier out in that area which wouldn’t be a deal killer but might affect the design process.

One big issue is that the amount of money we’re talking about is massive. As it is, the road situation in that area sucks and there’s not tons of places to build a new freeway, let alone the funds or the political will to expand what’s already there. Up until two years ago I lived in Maple Valley bear Four Corners, north of Enumclaw. Miles of traffic on two lane roads with no plan to even expand it. To get from that to an actual freeway, widened highways and surface streets, land acquisition, construction etc just seems borderline impossible. The regions politicians have very little desire to invest in new highways - they’ve gone all-in on SEA and transit, the latter to the tune of $70B or whatever, and PAE still won’t have light rail until like 2040.

Just my two cents.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:48 pm

I’d just add that the Puget Sound region is packed and the existing available land is going to be needed for residential and commercial development. I think when we have existing “options” - Olympia, McChord, Paine, Bellingham, Bremerton - it’s going to be a hard sell to instead grab more land further away from the I-5 corridor and try to push through an all-new airport.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
7673mech
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:26 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:


You did read that thread, right?
Its laughable.

With the NIMBY set in Mukilteo I seriously doubt there will be much growth at PAE.
They already complain about Boeing and ATS flight ops.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:31 pm

This should be the main thread instead of the one that was linked, I made this thread knowing the other one existed but as there were proposals for a 2nd Seattle airport now, the silly thread should be ignored and we should discuss actual ideas and plans for the proposed airport here.

7673mech wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:


You did read that thread, right?
Its laughable.

With the NIMBY set in Mukilteo I seriously doubt there will be much growth at PAE.
They already complain about Boeing and ATS flight ops.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:46 pm

Just my opinion is that BFI and McChord AFB seem to be the least-cost possibilities. We all know the story behind BFI with WN and AS.

McChord AFB has land on the eastern side of the base, but there would need to be some clean-up. But it does have a long runway. It's at the junction of WA512 and I-5. Tacoma/Olympia/Puyallup are not that far away (but traffic can be horrendous).

There was an article several years ago that G4 was interested in a Kitsap County airport, but that didn't last long.

The only other airports I can think of are Arlington Airport or Olympia's Airport. Didn't Olympia's airport have commercial flights back in the 1970's and 1980's?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:49 pm

7673mech wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:


You did read that thread, right?
Its laughable.

With the NIMBY set in Mukilteo I seriously doubt there will be much growth at PAE.
They already complain about Boeing and ATS flight ops.


I live in Mukilteo. I have mixed feelings about a lot of commercial service out of PAE. On the one hand, I welcome the great convenience. I wish AA and DL would start it too. On the other hand, it’s more noise.

Mukilteo residents don’t have a leg to stand on about Boeing and ATS traffic. Very few of us moved here before it was an airport. You choose to buy a house near an airport, you accept the consequences. I knew full well there is an airport nearby.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:16 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
I was thinking that the only potential site there is to build an entirely new airport in the Seattle/Tacoma area is the farmland near Enumclaw/Buckley, WA area. It looks all open and seems like there is enough space to build a bigger facility than SEA. Also they could build a small expressway from WA 18 or WA 167 which leads to that farmland area where the future airport will be. What do you guys think?


Knowing many people that live in Bonney Lake, Buckley, Enumclaw, and Maple Valley, I’ll just suggest that it’d be an uphill battle turning their communities from bedroom to flight path ones. I also think it tends to be colder and windier out in that area which wouldn’t be a deal killer but might affect the design process.

One big issue is that the amount of money we’re talking about is massive. As it is, the road situation in that area sucks and there’s not tons of places to build a new freeway, let alone the funds or the political will to expand what’s already there. Up until two years ago I lived in Maple Valley bear Four Corners, north of Enumclaw. Miles of traffic on two lane roads with no plan to even expand it. To get from that to an actual freeway, widened highways and surface streets, land acquisition, construction etc just seems borderline impossible. The regions politicians have very little desire to invest in new highways - they’ve gone all-in on SEA and transit, the latter to the tune of $70B or whatever, and PAE still won’t have light rail until like 2040.

Just my two cents.


Even bigger problem is that flat land around Enumclaw is the result of a mudflow 5K years ago. OK for light buildings, but anything bigger needs to be on piles because of it. It is tough pile driving too as there are rocks and boulders in it. In a seismic event it is quite prone to liquefaction. Not good for airports.

McCord has the slight problem of being an important US Air Force and Army Base, they already get chewed out regularly for the C-17 traffic. It is unlikely they would ever give it up.

Capacity could be increased substantially at SEA just by AS upgauging to the 797, 25% more pax with the same number of slots.
 
murchmo
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:06 am

PAE should/could be a huge help for this.

Bremerton/Kitsap - Nah. Better off expanding Tacoma Narrows. A legit option in my mind. But traffic at the bridge toll would get horrible.

Puget sound man made Island airport - Nah. Better off building a bridge to Vashon and building there. Also, Orcas and Salmon would never allow in addition to the aforementioned.

McChord could be perfect. Traffic issues aside. But those C-17s are flying constantly.

I really think Olympia could be an option. Especially with how much the Region is growing.
to strive to seek to find and not to yield
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:46 am

Could another runway at PAE be added (or 34R-16L expanded to a 737-capable runway)? This would double the jet capacity of PAE. Boeing's test aircraft can use 34L-16R, commercial aircraft use 34R-16L. This can essentially make the passenger portion of the terminal its own airport with the same runway capacity of places like SAN.
SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL, FFT | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A20N A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
QXAS
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:59 am

For a completely new airport the best option would likely be east of the Cascades just north of Thorp. Wide open flat area roughly 3 times the footprint of SEA. However that’s probably too far away from the population center so it’d be a nonstarter. In addition with the mountains and prevailing winds approaches would be interesting.

The best options to deal with SEA are the existing facilities. McChord has plenty of space. I’m not sure what the NIMBY situation is like though. If the Kitsap and Olympic Penninsulas continue to grow in population then Bremerton could be a possibility down the road for something similar to what PAE will be getting shortly. Hopefully PAE can be expanded down the road.

Everything below this point in my post is based on a tounge in cheek excercise and not to be taken too seriously as the problems associated with the idea are monumental:

As an experiment I devised a way to create a layout similar to PHX with roughly 1.5X the gate capacity of the current SEA facility (120 gates) with no air cargo facilities. The airport would have to be leveled and completely rebuilt. Capacity would be drastically reduced during the process because only 16R/34L would remain open during the construction process. It would shift 16L/34R and 16C/34C East to where 16L/34R would be where the expressway is north of the facility today. MX would be east of the runways (backed up against SR 99 where the parking garage is today) and the terminal would be between 16R/34L and 16C/34C in a layout similar to T4 at PHX but with 5 11 group 3 gate concourses on each side. And then a TBIT like international facility at either the north or south end with 10 gates. I modified one of the domestic concourses for Group 2 gates to get up to 15 parking stands for QX ops. And then two of the domestic concourses would have class V gates at the end lowering their capacity to 8-9 planes for domestic A330s from HA as well as DLs 767/A330 domestic runs.

It was a fun experiment but in reality it would be a practical impossibility.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:04 am

Why so much talk about a new airport?

Three runways is plenty of capacity. The airport master plan allows for another north terminal where the cargo facilities are. There is space south of the fuel tanks where the displaced cargo ramp can be relocated.

Image

https://www.westsideseattle.com/highlin ... -expansion
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:07 am

BWIAirport wrote:
Could another runway at PAE be added (or 34R-16L expanded to a 737-capable runway)? This would double the jet capacity of PAE. Boeing's test aircraft can use 34L-16R, commercial aircraft use 34R-16L. This can essentially make the passenger portion of the terminal its own airport with the same runway capacity of places like SAN.


Boeing has like 2-3 test airplanes a day at PAE. Maybe a few more on some days, but not enough to warrant a second runway for large airplanes.
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:10 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
Could another runway at PAE be added (or 34R-16L expanded to a 737-capable runway)? This would double the jet capacity of PAE. Boeing's test aircraft can use 34L-16R, commercial aircraft use 34R-16L. This can essentially make the passenger portion of the terminal its own airport with the same runway capacity of places like SAN.


Boeing has like 2-3 test airplanes a day at PAE. Maybe a few more on some days, but not enough to warrant a second runway for large airplanes.

So really the only thing prohibiting PAE being a legitimate SEA reliever is the passenger terminal then?
SWA, UAL, DAL, AWE, ASA, TRS, DLH, CLH, AFR, BAW, EIN, AAL, FFT | E190 DC94 CRJ2 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B753 B762 B77W A319 A320 A20N A321 A333 A343 A388 MD88
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:38 am

BWIAirport wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
BWIAirport wrote:
Could another runway at PAE be added (or 34R-16L expanded to a 737-capable runway)? This would double the jet capacity of PAE. Boeing's test aircraft can use 34L-16R, commercial aircraft use 34R-16L. This can essentially make the passenger portion of the terminal its own airport with the same runway capacity of places like SAN.


Boeing has like 2-3 test airplanes a day at PAE. Maybe a few more on some days, but not enough to warrant a second runway for large airplanes.

So really the only thing prohibiting PAE being a legitimate SEA reliever is the passenger terminal then?


Except that PAE has an "agreement" that flights will be limited to a certain number. The new terminal couldn't handle too many more flights. The airlines would have to pay for an expensive environmental study to add additional "slots."
 
teachpdx
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:40 am

Puget Sound is also wayyyyyy too deep to build an island airport. HKG/KIX/etc. were built on shallow bays but the Sound is hundreds of feet deep.
Not feasible from an engineering perspective, nor an environmental perspective.
Up Next: THIS YEAR IS CANCELLED!!!
 
Airnerd
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:45 am

I think with continued improvements they should be able to get 60+M through SEA. PAE is perfectly situated to be a north side reliever and actually has room to grow into a significant operation over time. Picture a linear terminal a la SNA or SJC along the west side, or continued expansion where the current small terminal is just about to open. I can pretty easily imagine 10M annual passengers at PAE in the future. PAE and SEA should be able to meet the region's needs without adding a third airport.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:44 pm

What about Boeing Field? Currently it only sees very limited service on Kenmore Air plus some cargo airlines but it can sustain much more. It's closer to downtown Seattle and it has a long runway that could support long distance flights if needed.

Of course this would need for the Boeing factories to be relocated, but that can be done. They don't need to be at that location, they can be anywhere.
 
dlphoenix
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:01 pm

YYZORD wrote:
There's many articies going around that SEA is to hit ultimate capacity in the coming 15 years....



SEA has ample runway capacity. It has no curfew and more runways than airports with much higher traffic such as LHR, DXB, EWR, NRT, HKG etc.
There is severe shortage of gates, but adding terminals at an existing airport is much cheaper than building a new airport or adding runways.

A new airport is a fun topic for discussion on A-Net, but there is no real need for one.

Happy travels
DLP
 
cschleic
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:46 pm

dlphoenix wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
There's many articies going around that SEA is to hit ultimate capacity in the coming 15 years....



SEA has ample runway capacity. It has no curfew and more runways than airports with much higher traffic such as LHR, DXB, EWR, NRT, HKG etc.
There is severe shortage of gates, but adding terminals at an existing airport is much cheaper than building a new airport or adding runways.

A new airport is a fun topic for discussion on A-Net, but there is no real need for one.

Happy travels
DLP


:checkmark: The issue is gates, not runways. They addressed the runway issue recently. While adding more fill land, or expanding the current footprint, certainly would be difficult, building a new airport would be more difficult. How about moving the parking garage across Pacific Highway...that would open up a ton of space to reconfigure the main terminal. There are significant geographic limitations to building a new airport. That's why long term options such as PAE as a reliever or McChord make more sense.

YYZORD wrote:
There's many articies going around that SEA is to hit ultimate capacity in the coming 15 years and a reliever or replacement airport is needed in the area, kinda like an LGA or EWR. I was just curious to know where they can build such a massive facility as the Seattle area is known for having limited land for development as we see housing prices rise and unlike other american cities, they build less suburban sprawl and more going upwards like densification due to limited land.

Here is the article link, but my question is where can they build such a reliever or SEA replacement facility?

https://q13fox.com/2019/01/31/another-a ... sh-for-it/


Seattle has plenty of suburban sprawl...Everett all the way to Olympia.

SeaDoo wrote:
Here is the schedule: https://www.heraldnet.com/business/weve ... r-service/

Alaska was going to start the first flight in less than 2 weeks, but due to the federal government shutdown, that date has been pushed back. United was planning on starting flights at the end of March. Both airlines will be using E175's.


Updated AS schedule due to the delay:

https://blog.alaskaair.com/alaska-airli ... d-service/

PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about Boeing Field? Currently it only sees very limited service on Kenmore Air plus some cargo airlines but it can sustain much more. It's closer to downtown Seattle and it has a long runway that could support long distance flights if needed.

Of course this would need for the Boeing factories to be relocated, but that can be done. They don't need to be at that location, they can be anywhere.


BFI has very limited space, Boeing or not, only one runway sufficient for large planes, and more geographic limitations than SEA. Where would Boeing facilities go (they don't actually assemble planes at BFI, it's other completion activities)? Renton...beyond maxed out. Everett...Boeing's space is limited there, too. Or are you thinking Charleston?
 
Jet-lagged
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:38 pm

On a side note, the remodeled North Satellite is coming to life. Last week they had operations out of Gate 20 or thereabouts. Still lots of temporary walls up though, and many gates not yet visible.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:29 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about Boeing Field? Currently it only sees very limited service on Kenmore Air plus some cargo airlines but it can sustain much more. It's closer to downtown Seattle and it has a long runway that could support long distance flights if needed.

Of course this would need for the Boeing factories to be relocated, but that can be done. They don't need to be at that location, they can be anywhere.


I believe there are also air space conflicts between SEA and BFI.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:49 pm

Jet-lagged wrote:
On a side note, the remodeled North Satellite is coming to life. Last week they had operations out of Gate 20 or thereabouts. Still lots of temporary walls up though, and many gates not yet visible.


The rest of the new N-Concourse will open in June. However, the old portion of the N-concourse will close for renovations for at least 2 years.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:05 pm

More of a background post: 50 years ago it was assumed that a bridge would be built somewhere between north Vashon and Bainbridge. That no longer is true. The ferry system now projects that 16 new large or medium large ferries will be needed in the next 20 years. Those ferries largely are carrying only:

passengers
their cars
high value service people with their cars or vans
high value freight in vans or small trucks.

There are very few semis with freight. Semis largely cross the bridge at Tacoma Narrows. I don't ride the ferry late at night or early in the morning. There may be more semis that I don't see. Anyone know?

Very little studies are out there on the impact of autonomous cars here in Washington State, or through the rest of the world. It could have a major impact on our traffic patterns. Who knows? Autonomous cars by 2030 could have a big impact on auto traffic on ferries.

This all has an impact on how people or freight gets to airports, and where airports need to be located. SeaTac could benefit from all this. Alternately reliever airports may function well with SeaTac in the new world of autonomous vehicles.
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Seattle/Tacoma Area 2nd New Airport (SeaTac Reliever/Replacement)

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:14 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
What about Boeing Field? Currently it only sees very limited service on Kenmore Air plus some cargo airlines but it can sustain much more. It's closer to downtown Seattle and it has a long runway that could support long distance flights if needed.

Of course this would need for the Boeing factories to be relocated, but that can be done. They don't need to be at that location, they can be anywhere.


I-5 next to BFI is already a logjam for much of the day, I can't imagine how much worse it would get with any kind of significant commercial operation. On top of that, freeway access is extremely limited and there are existing airspace conflicts with SEA.

There's also the small question of; who the hell puts a reliever airport four miles from the airport you're providing the relief for? Any practical plan for taking some of the regional air traffic off of SEA needs to focus on providing reasonable options for Puget Sound residents who live closer to other airports. We already have PAE opening up, which is a good start, but other options need to be explored. I like the idea of talking to USAF about joint-usage at TCM, I think OLM could reasonably host a level of service comparable to PAE and BLI may still have some underutilized potential for folks on the north end of the region. Building anything new is a non-starter, and if it's anywhere near SEA, it doesn't make much sense anyway.
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