910A
Topic Author
Posts: 1773
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:01 am

As part of the reauthorization of the Federal Aviation Administration that was passed through the US Congress last week.

U.S. Senator Debbie Stabenow today announced the five-year extension of the Essential Air Service program as part of the reauthorization of the Federal Aviation Administration.

Funded through the U.S Department of Transportation, the program provides critical air service that connects rural and remote areas to major hubs, helping to grow area businesses and support economic growth.


https://www.uppermichiganssource.com/co ... 09641.html
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:23 am

Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
MavyWavyATR
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:30 am

So they're keeping this going huh? I would've cut it years ago (with the exception of Alaska and certain western states).
 
DGVT
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 12:27 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:31 am

EAS is nothing but a socialist leftover from the times before deregulation. Definitely not worthy for a capitalist country.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13904
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:34 am

stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


You think places like PAH or VEL would get HSR in a pro-HSR country?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
joeblow10
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:40 am

I must admit I’m generally a limited government limited involvement kinda guy but EAS is the only reasonable way to get into a lot of cities I’ve been to and will need to go in the future. I have no issue with it other than the subsidy levels shouldn’t encourage “stupidity” in terms of service levels (I.e: 2x daily into EAS communities when they can barely fill 20% of one flight).

It’s nice to see that in a lot of EAS markets they are now capping fares (whether mandated or not I don’t know) but no matter when you purchase, making it a lot more reasonable to fly them. DEN-CNY is a great example - super cheap even 2 days in advance. I think the program overall is pretty beneficial, there could just be some fine tuning
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:40 am

Cubsrule wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


You think places like PAH or VEL would get HSR in a pro-HSR country?

Vel is right on the way between SLC and DEN so yes.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:48 am

joeblow10 wrote:
I must admit I’m generally a limited government limited involvement kinda guy but EAS is the only reasonable way to get into a lot of cities I’ve been to and will need to go in the future. I have no issue with it other than the subsidy levels shouldn’t encourage “stupidity” in terms of service levels (I.e: 2x daily into EAS communities when they can barely fill 20% of one flight).

It’s nice to see that in a lot of EAS markets they are now capping fares (whether mandated or not I don’t know) but no matter when you purchase, making it a lot more reasonable to fly them. DEN-CNY is a great example - super cheap even 2 days in advance. I think the program overall is pretty beneficial, there could just be some fine tuning

Such as no subsidy to DEC, which has TWO commercial serviced airports right next to it, not to mention STL isn't very far either
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
joeblow10
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:57 am

stl07 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
I must admit I’m generally a limited government limited involvement kinda guy but EAS is the only reasonable way to get into a lot of cities I’ve been to and will need to go in the future. I have no issue with it other than the subsidy levels shouldn’t encourage “stupidity” in terms of service levels (I.e: 2x daily into EAS communities when they can barely fill 20% of one flight).

It’s nice to see that in a lot of EAS markets they are now capping fares (whether mandated or not I don’t know) but no matter when you purchase, making it a lot more reasonable to fly them. DEN-CNY is a great example - super cheap even 2 days in advance. I think the program overall is pretty beneficial, there could just be some fine tuning

Such as no subsidy to DEC, which has TWO commercial serviced airports right next to it, not to mention STL isn't very far either


Agreed. As somebody mentioned above, this really is only beneficial in the West, Alaska, and/or the very few isolated regions in the East.

In fairness to the DOT, the list of eligible communities has dwindled significantly since the program first started. A few more could be removed for sure, but they've trimmed it a decent amount.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2212
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:00 am

DGVT wrote:
EAS is nothing but a socialist leftover from the times before deregulation. Definitely not worthy for a capitalist country.


Socialist? In that case, why aren't all interstates/highways user pay toll roads?
 
michman
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:51 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:34 am

Dominion301 wrote:
DGVT wrote:
EAS is nothing but a socialist leftover from the times before deregulation. Definitely not worthy for a capitalist country.


Socialist? In that case, why aren't all interstates/highways user pay toll roads?


Strawman alert. Nobody is saying that road connectivity is not crucial to communities. Also, the roads are largely paid for with gas taxes -- aka the users and not a true "subsidy" unlike EAS. Other than some very remote communities, air service is definitely not crucial. The vast majority of people have no problem with government providing and subsidizing services that are truly "essential". The argument here is whether the air service to many of these communities are in fact truly "essential". Flew into the UP of Michigan a few weeks ago and noticed that IMT, ESC, and MQT all have air service despite being within 1.5 hours of each other. Sorry, but's it absolutely silly to claim that it's "essential" that every one of these communities have their own air service. I wonder if anyone who is favor of the current program can provide something more than cutesy one-liners and strawman comparisons.
Last edited by michman on Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:41 am

joeblow10 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
I must admit I’m generally a limited government limited involvement kinda guy but EAS is the only reasonable way to get into a lot of cities I’ve been to and will need to go in the future. I have no issue with it other than the subsidy levels shouldn’t encourage “stupidity” in terms of service levels (I.e: 2x daily into EAS communities when they can barely fill 20% of one flight).

It’s nice to see that in a lot of EAS markets they are now capping fares (whether mandated or not I don’t know) but no matter when you purchase, making it a lot more reasonable to fly them. DEN-CNY is a great example - super cheap even 2 days in advance. I think the program overall is pretty beneficial, there could just be some fine tuning

Such as no subsidy to DEC, which has TWO commercial serviced airports right next to it, not to mention STL isn't very far either


Agreed. As somebody mentioned above, this really is only beneficial in the West, Alaska, and/or the very few isolated regions in the East.

In fairness to the DOT, the list of eligible communities has dwindled significantly since the program first started. A few more could be removed for sure, but they've trimmed it a decent amount.

That's good to hear. One other refinement I would suggest is freeriding, in which someone flies (most famously) LAX-eas city-OAK on boutique for very cheap with a government subsidy.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
WN732
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:44 am

stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


Look to California if you want a glimpse of how HSR goes. Not very well.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:49 am

WN732 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


Look to California if you want a glimpse of how HSR goes. Not very well.

Yea, the US can't figure it out for some reason
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
joeblow10
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:57 am

michman wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
DGVT wrote:
EAS is nothing but a socialist leftover from the times before deregulation. Definitely not worthy for a capitalist country.


Socialist? In that case, why aren't all interstates/highways user pay toll roads?


Strawman alert. Nobody is saying that road connectivity is not crucial to communities. Also, the roads are largely paid for with gas taxes -- aka the users and not a true "subsidy" unlike EAS. Other than some very remote communities, air service is definitely not crucial. The vast majority of people have no problem with government providing and subsidizing services that are truly "essential". The argument here is whether the air service to many of these communities are in fact truly "essential". Flew into the UP of Michigan a few weeks ago and noticed that IMT, ESC, and MQT all have air service despite being within 1.5 hours of each other. Sorry, but's it absolutely silly to claim that it's "essential" that every one of these communities have their own air service. I wonder if anyone who is favor of the current program can provide something more than cutesy one-liners and strawman comparisons.


Not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but my first thought about those Northern MI communities would be during the winter. Those 1.5 hours apart can suddenly turn to 2-3 if not more when snow hits and roads close.

During the summer there is so much tourist traffic that OO goes well beyond the subsidy into at risk flying, but I would agree a subsidy is not necessary or practical during those times of year. But during the winter? Absolutely. Northern MI and the UP can turn into a wintry mess very quickly and the cold doesn’t let up for months.
 
WN732
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:02 am

stl07 wrote:
WN732 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


Look to California if you want a glimpse of how HSR goes. Not very well.

Yea, the US can't figure it out for some reason


Unfortunately not, but there is a ton of political BS associated with CA's problem train. That is for a different forum. I looked at how much EAS costs per year vs the cost of the CA HSR and EAS could be funded for YEARS just on what CA spent on Moonbeams train. It's quite amazing really.
 
c933103
Posts: 3804
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:58 am

stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel

HSR is NOT going to help any small communities that can't even sustain a single regional jet flight by itself. It need at least thousand of passenger per day to make sense
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
c933103
Posts: 3804
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:24 am

WN732 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


Look to California if you want a glimpse of how HSR goes. Not very well.

Problem with the California train is the way they build them. That have zero implication on the train itself.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
User avatar
piedmontf284000
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:00 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:41 am

The EAS program is more then just getting air service to remote communities, which is essential for places like PIR, DIK, PDT, LWB, IWD, IWT, BJI, MSL, to name a few. Obviously these places, as well as Alaska, are dependent on air service because they are very isolated from the rest of their states/country. However, it is also about growing area businesses and supporting economic growth in smaller communities.

The problem for cities like MKG, PUB, ALO, MCW, HOT, MAC, to name a few, is that they don't have Amtrak service and thus are dependent on air service to get people into their region. Yes, some are an hour drive from a major airport or medium sized airport. However, what happens if someone wants to get there for business meeting or has a family emergency? It is not always conducive to drive. This gives these smaller communities the ability to have air service which will allow a transportation alternative to driving. It also gives jobs to the community related to these flights, which we all know, no major commuter airline would fly into without an incentive. Finally, the EAS program keeps flight prices reasonable to these cities so that they are not being taken advantage of for having a smaller airport/community.

Is it a waste of tax dollars? No more then some of the crap the US government gives money to, that is related to transportation... like the HART (Honolulu Area Rapid Transit) which has already cost US taxpayers 810 million dollars for a half built above ground metro system for a city that is 68 sq miles.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1867
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:47 am

stl07 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Such as no subsidy to DEC, which has TWO commercial serviced airports right next to it, not to mention STL isn't very far either


Agreed. As somebody mentioned above, this really is only beneficial in the West, Alaska, and/or the very few isolated regions in the East.

In fairness to the DOT, the list of eligible communities has dwindled significantly since the program first started. A few more could be removed for sure, but they've trimmed it a decent amount.

That's good to hear. One other refinement I would suggest is freeriding, in which someone flies (most famously) LAX-eas city-OAK on boutique for very cheap with a government subsidy.



I don't see the freeriding. I don't think many people are willing to pay the prices I looked at on Boutique roundtrip, like $268 and for OAK-Merced-LAX.

Plenty of nonstops from OAK-LAS starting at $103 with Spirit . Why not fill a few extra seats in between., and eventually wean off the subsidy.
 
pdt2f
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:18 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:19 am

stl07 wrote:
WN732 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


Look to California if you want a glimpse of how HSR goes. Not very well.

Yea, the US can't figure it out for some reason


Because we don’t need it? Perhaps due to the relative inexpense of flying here? I don’t think we need to spend hundreds of billions on a train system that we don’t need simply to try and win a d*** measuring contest with Europe and China.
“The sky peoclaims God’s glory - the vault of heaven, the Hand of Him who made it.”

BNA based.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2212
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:10 pm

michman wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
DGVT wrote:
EAS is nothing but a socialist leftover from the times before deregulation. Definitely not worthy for a capitalist country.


Socialist? In that case, why aren't all interstates/highways user pay toll roads?


Strawman alert. Nobody is saying that road connectivity is not crucial to communities. Also, the roads are largely paid for with gas taxes -- aka the users and not a true "subsidy" unlike EAS. Other than some very remote communities, air service is definitely not crucial. The vast majority of people have no problem with government providing and subsidizing services that are truly "essential". The argument here is whether the air service to many of these communities are in fact truly "essential". Flew into the UP of Michigan a few weeks ago and noticed that IMT, ESC, and MQT all have air service despite being within 1.5 hours of each other. Sorry, but's it absolutely silly to claim that it's "essential" that every one of these communities have their own air service. I wonder if anyone who is favor of the current program can provide something more than cutesy one-liners and strawman comparisons.


Seriously. I was honing in on the "socialist leftover" statement. Do you honestly think a grant program that represents 0.0001% of the federal government's total expenditures represents the socialist boogeyman?

Also, where did I ever say in my statement above that I was in favour of the program as-is?
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:58 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:25 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
The EAS program is more then just getting air service to remote communities, which is essential for places like PIR, DIK, PDT, LWB, IWD, IWT, BJI, MSL, to name a few. Obviously these places, as well as Alaska, are dependent on air service because they are very isolated from the rest of their states/country. However, it is also about growing area businesses and supporting economic growth in smaller communities.

The problem for cities like MKG, PUB, ALO, MCW, HOT, MAC, to name a few, is that they don't have Amtrak service and thus are dependent on air service to get people into their region. Yes, some are an hour drive from a major airport or medium sized airport. However, what happens if someone wants to get there for business meeting or has a family emergency? It is not always conducive to drive. This gives these smaller communities the ability to have air service which will allow a transportation alternative to driving. It also gives jobs to the community related to these flights, which we all know, no major commuter airline would fly into without an incentive. Finally, the EAS program keeps flight prices reasonable to these cities so that they are not being taken advantage of for having a smaller airport/community.

Is it a waste of tax dollars? No more then some of the crap the US government gives money to, that is related to transportation... like the HART (Honolulu Area Rapid Transit) which has already cost US taxpayers 810 million dollars for a half built above ground metro system for a city that is 68 sq miles.


MSL is hardly remote. It’s a little over an hour from HSV and about two hours from BHM.
 
DakotaFlyer
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:19 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:35 pm

I recently moved to Bemidji, MN and over 2 hours away from any non-EAS airport. Throw in a winter snow storm and it can easily be 4 hours if at all. It's very vital that BJI keeps reasonable priced commercial air service for the community.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:36 pm

pdt2f wrote:
stl07 wrote:
WN732 wrote:

Look to California if you want a glimpse of how HSR goes. Not very well.

Yea, the US can't figure it out for some reason


Because we don’t need it? Perhaps due to the relative inexpense of flying here? I don’t think we need to spend hundreds of billions on a train system that we don’t need simply to try and win a d*** measuring contest with Europe and China.
Baloney. HSR would work quite well in certain areas. Just look how much market share Amtrack has in the northeast, and that isn't even real HSR. My impression is flying is even cheaper intra Europe and HSR seems to do fine there.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3064
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:05 pm

The subsidy should be for transportation, not exclusively air. A higher quality bus/van service to nearest larger cities, medical facilities, and airports would be a more efficient use of limited resources. And regulations that made it easier to provide safe services would help.

ps - the Interstate Road system is currently dependent on regular subsidies, gas taxes are not covering maintenance costs.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3064
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:06 pm

The subsidy should be for transportation, not exclusively air. A higher quality bus/van service to nearest larger cities, medical facilities, and airports would be a more efficient use of limited resources. And regulations that made it easier to provide safe services would help.

ps - the Interstate Road system is currently dependent on regular subsidies, gas taxes are not covering maintenance costs.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
pdt2f
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:18 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:14 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
pdt2f wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Yea, the US can't figure it out for some reason


Because we don’t need it? Perhaps due to the relative inexpense of flying here? I don’t think we need to spend hundreds of billions on a train system that we don’t need simply to try and win a d*** measuring contest with Europe and China.
Baloney. HSR would work quite well in certain areas. Just look how much market share Amtrack has in the northeast, and that isn't even real HSR. My impression is flying is even cheaper intra Europe and HSR seems to do fine there.


Ok, maybe it would work. Again, why do we need to undertake such an expensive endeavor when there’s existing rail and flight options that currently work? Is it really something that we should be nationally ashamed of that we don’t have HSR between Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, to go along with the massive amount of existing rail, bus, and air options?
“The sky peoclaims God’s glory - the vault of heaven, the Hand of Him who made it.”

BNA based.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:18 pm

spinkid wrote:
stl07 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Agreed. As somebody mentioned above, this really is only beneficial in the West, Alaska, and/or the very few isolated regions in the East.

In fairness to the DOT, the list of eligible communities has dwindled significantly since the program first started. A few more could be removed for sure, but they've trimmed it a decent amount.

That's good to hear. One other refinement I would suggest is freeriding, in which someone flies (most famously) LAX-eas city-OAK on boutique for very cheap with a government subsidy.



I don't see the freeriding. I don't think many people are willing to pay the prices I looked at on Boutique roundtrip, like $268 and for OAK-Merced-LAX.

Plenty of nonstops from OAK-LAS starting at $103 with Spirit . Why not fill a few extra seats in between., and eventually wean off the subsidy.

It used to be in the $80, maybe they have already cracked down on it then.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
evank516
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:25 pm

If OO bids on more EAS cities I think the subsidies are still worth it. OO will operate the flights at risk under the brand of one of the US3, and sometimes the service becomes profitable enough to discontinue EAS funds. I think that's happened in quite a few of the cities where OO went in. If the EAS funds aren't needed anymore then we have successful air service generating its own revenue and the government is spending less money.
Last edited by evank516 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 801
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:25 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
pdt2f wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Yea, the US can't figure it out for some reason


Because we don’t need it? Perhaps due to the relative inexpense of flying here? I don’t think we need to spend hundreds of billions on a train system that we don’t need simply to try and win a d*** measuring contest with Europe and China.
Baloney. HSR would work quite well in certain areas. Just look how much market share Amtrack has in the northeast, and that isn't even real HSR. My impression is flying is even cheaper intra Europe and HSR seems to do fine there.


HSR in california is crazy expensive, but it's not really for the Central Valley (though that is a benefit) It's future proofing for service between LA Basin and the Bay Area. If California wants to keep business connectivity growing, eventually it would need either an airport expansion or a new airport to keep up the capacity and that would easily be just as expensive and also completely unfeasible politically.

I live in Spain and between Madrid and Barcelona, the fares for the train tend to be highest followed by flying as the second option and it's a similar distance to LA-SF. And the Train fares probably aren't high enough since it can often be difficult to get a seat on a 16 car train at a busy time. While yes, it can be overdone, I just don't see how connecting two of the most economically productive areas of the country via a reasonable HSR link is crazy.

And yes, the costs ballooned but unfortunately that's the nature of infrastructure as you can't sell it politically with the real costs, but that's not just trains, pretty much any public project is massively optimistic.
 
RamblinMan
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:14 pm

stl07 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Surprise surprise, the US excuse of not having HSR passes again.

Except for Alaska and a few other remote cities, EAS is simply a byproduct of not having reliable longer distance train travel


You think places like PAH or VEL would get HSR in a pro-HSR country?

Vel is right on the way between SLC and DEN so yes.


Has it occurred to you that if the HSR stops in every one-horse town along the route, it's no longer "HS"?
 
drdisque
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:15 pm

The program has actually improved greatly. The elimination of 19 seaters and split of markets into ones that can support 50 seaters (usually with a relatively small subsidy) and those that can only support 9 seaters flown Part 135, but on a better schedule and with lower fares, has really improved the efficiency of the program.

Now that there's finally some stability in carriers (getting Great Lakes and Silver out of the program as well as the end of PenAir's lower 48 experiment), markets that don't perform can finally be cut from the program (cities that are above the max subsidy per pax or minimum pax per day are granted exemptions if they experienced a change of service).
 
c933103
Posts: 3804
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:33 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
The problem for cities like MKG, PUB, ALO, MCW, HOT, MAC, to name a few, is that they don't have Amtrak service and thus are dependent on air service to get people into their region. Yes, some are an hour drive from a major airport or medium sized airport. However, what happens if someone wants to get there for business meeting or has a family emergency? It is not always conducive to drive. This gives these smaller communities the ability to have air service which will allow a transportation alternative to driving. It also gives jobs to the community related to these flights, which we all know, no major commuter airline would fly into without an incentive. Finally, the EAS program keeps flight prices reasonable to these cities so that they are not being taken advantage of for having a smaller airport/community.

If we are talking about "alternative to train" then buses should be the closest thing. Buses are also much more financially sustainable than planes. Or, in really low demand area, public ride-share taxi service
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
c933103
Posts: 3804
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:34 pm

pdt2f wrote:
stl07 wrote:
WN732 wrote:

Look to California if you want a glimpse of how HSR goes. Not very well.

Yea, the US can't figure it out for some reason


Because we don’t need it? Perhaps due to the relative inexpense of flying here? I don’t think we need to spend hundreds of billions on a train system that we don’t need simply to try and win a d*** measuring contest with Europe and China.

Globally, HSR work well even when they cost more than LCC.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:34 pm

I mean EAS is the difference between some companies able to stay in those communities and being forced to relocate. It's overall a good program, people just point out the few bad eggs here frequently. If we had higher not even high speed rail this wouldn't be needed, but we don't so its needed. This is pennys on the overall budget, not even actually. Its a very cheap band aid fix for overall larger and more expensive transportation issues. This program is actually getting better for people who have been here a while!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13904
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:42 pm

drdisque wrote:
The program has actually improved greatly. The elimination of 19 seaters and split of markets into ones that can support 50 seaters (usually with a relatively small subsidy) and those that can only support 9 seaters flown Part 135, but on a better schedule and with lower fares, has really improved the efficiency of the program.

Now that there's finally some stability in carriers (getting Great Lakes and Silver out of the program as well as the end of PenAir's lower 48 experiment), markets that don't perform can finally be cut from the program (cities that are above the max subsidy per pax or minimum pax per day are granted exemptions if they experienced a change of service).


Some stability, yes. Some success stories (places like COU and MHK), yes. But still lots of waste. Why do places like MWA and PAH, which are easy drives to large airports, need subsidy?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
c933103
Posts: 3804
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:48 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I mean EAS is the difference between some companies able to stay in those communities and being forced to relocate. It's overall a good program, people just point out the few bad eggs here frequently. If we had higher not even high speed rail this wouldn't be needed, but we don't so its needed. This is pennys on the overall budget, not even actually. Its a very cheap band aid fix for overall larger and more expensive transportation issues. This program is actually getting better for people who have been here a while!

Then again, those fast trains need thousands of passengers per day to be economically viable. Unless those EAS cities are conveniently located between two large cities with such demand that they simply need to make a few minutes stop to serve those cities, there are no way any fast trains can help the problem.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:56 pm

The closest unsubsidized airport to PAH is EVV, 142 miles away. It is also now operating with almost no subsidy.

Ideally, EAS service for PAH, MWA, and CGI would be consolidated at one central airport that would not require a subsidy.

Same goes for Ogdensburg, Massena, and Watertown NY. They're all very close together, However, ART is the strongest market and is unfortunately not the most central. At least there's been talks of consolidating the Ogdensburg and Massena service at one airport.

Similarly I feel that IMT and ESC should be consolidated at ESC and may not need a subsidy.

DDC and GCK have been coordinating their service (making it so they currently both have major airline service, but operated to different hubs on different airlines), but it might make sense at this point to consolidate it.

I'll be interested to see PUB's FY2018 numbers - it has been a long-time target and this is the best service it has ever had. If it can't perform now, it needs to be gone immediately.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:58 pm

pdt2f wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
pdt2f wrote:

Because we don’t need it? Perhaps due to the relative inexpense of flying here? I don’t think we need to spend hundreds of billions on a train system that we don’t need simply to try and win a d*** measuring contest with Europe and China.
Baloney. HSR would work quite well in certain areas. Just look how much market share Amtrack has in the northeast, and that isn't even real HSR. My impression is flying is even cheaper intra Europe and HSR seems to do fine there.


Ok, maybe it would work. Again, why do we need to undertake such an expensive endeavor when there’s existing rail and flight options that currently work? Is it really something that we should be nationally ashamed of that we don’t have HSR between Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, to go along with the massive amount of existing rail, bus, and air options?
Because the existing infrastructure is already overburdened in that part of the country and it won't be getting any less crowded anytime soon and movement of people and goods is essential for economic growth and prosperity? No, its not anything to be nationally ashamed of, but plenty of other developed countries seem to make it work and it is quite popular. It don't see why the US should be any different.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
adam47150
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:37 pm

drdisque wrote:
The closest unsubsidized airport to PAH is EVV, 142 miles away. It is also now operating with almost no subsidy.


Don't forget OWB. They have daily EAS service to STL and they are less than 50 miles from EVV.
 
910A
Topic Author
Posts: 1773
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:51 pm

michman wrote:
[
Flew into the UP of Michigan a few weeks ago and noticed that IMT, ESC, and MQT all have air service despite being within 1.5 hours of each other. Sorry, but's it absolutely silly to claim that it's "essential" that every one of these communities have their own air service. I wonder if anyone who is favor of the current program can provide something more than cutesy one-liners and strawman comparisons.


Are you aware MQT is not an EAS airport, although under EAS guidelines they would qualify? Apparently they are able to support service to three hubs, ORD, DTW and MSP.
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:02 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Is it a waste of tax dollars? No more then some of the crap the US government gives money to, that is related to transportation... like the HART (Honolulu Area Rapid Transit) which has already cost US taxpayers 810 million dollars for a half built above ground metro system for a city that is 68 sq miles.


You're comparing capital investment in infrastructure with an ongoing subsidy. The HART line could potentially serve generations. To give you an idea, if I hop onto my local metro system and head into the city centre, I will be travelling on a line surveyed by no less than George Stephenson in 1830, and opened 10 years later, before taking a tunnel under the river completed in 1886. $810m federal subsidy out of a total cost of $9bn seems like a good use of money. Better than $300m a year for the convenience of very few, and with nothing to show at the end of it.

Of course, when Boutique Air are shuttling people from Muscle Shoals to Atlanta, I expect some will be connecting on to Delta flights. Nice little earner. Strange that I didn't see mention of that in the Open and Fair Skies publication on subsidies.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:10 pm

drdisque wrote:
Same goes for Ogdensburg, Massena, and Watertown NY. They're all very close together, However, ART is the strongest market and is unfortunately not the most central. At least there's been talks of consolidating the Ogdensburg and Massena service at one airport.


True that ART is the strongest, they have AA. I have heard about them consolidating Ogdensburg and Massena, and if they do they would probably choose Ogdensburg as they have just extended their runway to handle larger jets. Ogdensburg has Allegiant to Florida and Cape Air to Albany, Boutique Air has had problems with maintenance and cancelling flights out of Massena. Their EAS is up for renewal and already 3 airlines have put in bids; Boutique, Cape Air, and Silver. Silver has the largest planes of the three current bidders and reps from the airline have already visited Massena.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:58 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
DakotaFlyer wrote:
I recently moved to Bemidji, MN and over 2 hours away from any non-EAS airport. Throw in a winter snow storm and it can easily be 4 hours if at all. It's very vital that BJI keeps reasonable priced commercial air service for the community.


Why move there in the first place? Knowing what the remoteness and bad weather is, I find it hard to see why someone who depends on airline service would locate there. Reminds me of those who move near an existing airport and then complain about the noise. People need to do due diligence when moving to a new area. Living in a rural area has its advantages, low taxes, wide open spaces, no traffic jams, etc, but to expect what other larger cities offer is not reasonable. Years back I had to drive 2 hours to get to JFK but I knew that's the way it was.
 
cheapgreek
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:18 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
The EAS program is more then just getting air service to remote communities, which is essential for places like PIR, DIK, PDT, LWB, IWD, IWT, BJI, MSL, to name a few. Obviously these places, as well as Alaska, are dependent on air service because they are very isolated from the rest of their states/country. However, it is also about growing area businesses and supporting economic growth in smaller communities.

The problem for cities like MKG, PUB, ALO, MCW, HOT, MAC, to name a few, is that they don't have Amtrak service and thus are dependent on air service to get people into their region. Yes, some are an hour drive from a major airport or medium sized airport. However, what happens if someone wants to get there for business meeting or has a family emergency? It is not always conducive to drive. This gives these smaller communities the ability to have air service which will allow a transportation alternative to driving. It also gives jobs to the community related to these flights, which we all know, no major commuter airline would fly into without an incentive. Finally, the EAS program keeps flight prices reasonable to these cities so that they are not being taken advantage of for having a smaller airport/community.

Is it a waste of tax dollars? No more then some of the crap the US government gives money to, that is related to transportation... like the HART (Honolulu Area Rapid Transit) which has already cost US taxpayers 810 million dollars for a half built above ground metro system for a city that is 68 sq miles.


Again, why move to such a remote place knowing full well there is no air service. Some act like air service is an unalienable right, its not. Ferrying 4-8 or so passengers is also a waste of pilots and given the pilot shortage, moving 50 passengers is a better use of resources than 10 or less. Along with no air service small towns also lack large hospitals, entertainment venues, etc, but that's the trade off for country living. They enjoy low taxes, light traffic, less crime, and a less stressful way of life. This country has a gimme attitude or an entitlement attitude that has spread to many areas of life, thinking someone will have to pay for me, its my right as a citizen.
 
slider
Posts: 7403
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: EAS program extended for another 5 years.

Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:51 pm

More porkbarrel horseshit that makes no sense.

Nevermind doing an actual market-based review.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos