xjetflyer2001
Topic Author
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:20 pm

What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:52 am

I heard the other day that it's been 60 years since jet service had been initiated between North America and Europe across the Atlantic. Feeling nostalgic, that got me thinking, what is the first aircraft type used to cross the Atlantic from North America to Europe non stop with passengers, not including flying boats or airships?

I've been trying to read about it for the past 2 hours and at first saw that in January of 1946 Pan Am used the DC-4 and in June of the same year the Constellation was also being used, so I thought ok, it was those aircraft. Then I got to thinking, what about the Boeing 307 or Boeing 377, those aircraft were around before the DC-4 and Constellation. So which aircraft was it?

Also while on this topic, what were the first aircraft used to cross the pacific non stop without an ANC stop and what year?
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14882
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:11 am

It was a German rigid airship, no? Graf Zeppelin
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:51 am

The first ;andplane to carry at least one passenger across the Atlantic was NX237, a Wright-Bellanca WB-2 that departed Roosevelt Field, NY, on 4 June 1927 and arrived in Eisleben, Germany, 42 hours and 45 minutes later.

Granted this was a one-off, so you have to look a bit further for scheduled service, or indeed for two or more passengers :p
 
hz747300
Posts: 2368
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:35 am

XAM2175 wrote:
The first ;andplane to carry at least one passenger across the Atlantic was NX237, a Wright-Bellanca WB-2 that departed Roosevelt Field, NY, on 4 June 1927 and arrived in Eisleben, Germany, 42 hours and 45 minutes later.

Granted this was a one-off, so you have to look a bit further for scheduled service, or indeed for two or more passengers :p


Cruise speed 91kts... That's a slow journey across the North Atlantic, but it should have been good for whale watching.
Keep on truckin'...
 
User avatar
CARST
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:00 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:09 am

I'll just quote Wikipedia here hoping they are right...

First transatlantic flight
On 8–31 May 1919, the U.S. Navy Curtiss NC-4 flying boat under the command of Albert Read, flew 4,526 statute miles (7,284 km) from Rockaway, New York, to Plymouth (England), via among other stops Trepassey (Newfoundland), Horta and Ponta Delgada (both Azores) and Lisbon (Portugal) in 53h 58m, spread over 23 days. The crossing from Newfoundland to the European mainland had taken 10 days 22 hours, with the total time in flight of 26h 46m. The longest non-stop leg of the journey, from Trepassey, Newfoundland, to Horta in the Azores, was 1,200 statute miles (1,900 km) and lasted 15h 18m.

First non-stop transatlantic flight
On 14–15 June 1919, Capt. John Alcock and Lieut. Arthur Whitten Brown of the United Kingdom in Vickers Vimy bomber, between islands, 1,960 nautical miles (3,630 km), from St. John's, Newfoundland, to Clifden, Ireland, in 16h 12m.

First east-to-west transatlantic flight
On 2 July 1919, Major George Herbert Scott of the Royal Air Force with his crew and passengers flies from RAF East Fortune, Scotland to Mineola, New York (on Long Island) in airship R34, covering a distance of about 3,000 statute miles (4,800 km) in about four and a half days. R34 then made the return trip to England arriving at RNAS Pulham in 75 hours, thus also completing the first double crossing of the Atlantic (east-west-east).

First flight across the South Atlantic
Main article: First aerial crossing of the South Atlantic
On 30 March–17 June 1922, Lieutenant Commander Sacadura Cabral and Commander Gago Coutinho of Portugal, using three Fairey IIID floatplanes (Lusitania, Portugal, and Santa Cruz), after two ditchings, with only internal means of navigation (the Coutinho-invented sextant with artificial horizon) from Lisbon, Portugal, to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.[61]

First non-stop aircraft flight between European and American mainlands
In October 1924, the Zeppelin ZR-3 (LZ-126), flew from Germany to New Jersey with a crew commanded by Dr. Hugo Eckener, covering a distance of about 4,000 statute miles (6,400 km).[62]

First solo transatlantic flight and first non-stop fixed-wing aircraft flight between America and mainland Europe

On 20–21 May 1927, Charles A. Lindbergh flew his Ryan monoplane (named Spirit of St. Louis), 3,600 nautical miles (6,700 km), from Roosevelt Field, New York to Paris–Le Bourget Airport, in 33½ hours.

First transatlantic air passenger
On 4–6 June 1927, the first transatlantic air passenger was Charles A. Levine. He was carried as a passenger by Clarence D. Chamberlin from Roosevelt Field, New York, to Eisleben, Germany, in a Wright-powered Bellanca.

First non-stop fixed-wing aircraft westbound flight over the North Atlantic
On 12–13 April 1928, Ehrenfried Günther von Hünefeld and Capt. Hermann Köhl of Germany and Comdr. James Fitzmaurice of Ireland, flew a Junkers W33 monoplane (named Bremen), 2,070 statute miles (3,330 km), from Baldonnell near Dublin, Ireland, to Labrador, in 36½ hours.[63]

First crossing of the Atlantic by a woman
On 17–18 June 1928, Amelia Earhart was a passenger on an aircraft piloted by Wilmer Stultz. Since most of the flight was on instruments for which Earhart had no training, she did not pilot the aircraft. Interviewed after landing, she said, "Stultz did all the flying — had to. I was just baggage, like a sack of potatoes. Maybe someday I'll try it alone."

Notable flight (around the world)
On 1–8 August 1929, in making the circumnavigation, Dr Hugo Eckener piloted the LZ 127 Graf Zeppelin across the Atlantic three times: from Germany 4,391 statute miles (7,067 km) east to west in four days from 1 August; return 4,391 statute miles (7,067 km) west to east in two days from 8 August; after completing the circumnavigation to Lakehurst, a final 4,391 statute miles (7,067 km) west to east landing 4 September, making three crossings in 34 days.[64]

First scheduled transatlantic passenger flights

From 1931 onwards, LZ 127 Graf Zeppelin operated the world's first scheduled transatlantic passenger flights, mainly between Germany and Brazil (64 such round trips overall) sometimes stopping in Spain, Miami, London, and Berlin.

First nonstop east-to-west fixed-wing aircraft flight between European and American mainlands

On 1–2 September 1930, Dieudonne Costes and Maurice Bellonte flew a Breguet 19 Super Bidon biplane (named Point d'Interrogation, Question Mark), 6,200 km from Paris to New York City.

First large fixed-wing aircraft to cross the Atlantic
10 August 1938: The first non-stop flight from Berlin to New York was with a Focke-Wulf Fw 200 that flew Staaken to Floyd Bennett in 24 hours, 56 minutes and did the return flight three days later in 19 hours, 47 minutes.


Many, many "firsts", read more about them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatla ... ight#1910s

And I guess the answer the OP was searching for is this flight:

First transatlantic passenger service on heavier-than air aircraft
on June 24, 1939, Pan American inaugurated transatlantic passenger service between New York and Marseilles, France, using Boeing 314 flying boats. On 8 July 1939, a service began between New York and Southampton as well. A single fare was US$375. Scheduled landplane flights started in October 1945.


I think it quite clearly shows that WW2 stopped the airlines from starting regular TATL service in 1939 and so we saw these plans going forward not before late 1945...

Also interesting are these ones:

First jet aircraft to make a non-stop transatlantic flight
On 21 February 1951, an RAF English Electric Canberra B Mk 2 (serial number WD932) flown by Squadron Leader A Callard of the A&AEE, flew from Aldergrove Northern Ireland, to Gander, Newfoundland. The flight covered almost 1,800 nautical miles (3,300 km) in 4h 37 m. The aircraft was being flown to the U.S. to act as a pattern aircraft for the Martin B-57 Canberra.

First jet aircraft transatlantic passenger service
On 4 October 1958, British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) flew the first jet airliner service using the de Havilland Comet, when G-APDC initiated the first transatlantic Comet 4 service and the first scheduled transatlantic passenger jet service in history, flying from London to New York with a stopover at Gander.
Last edited by CARST on Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
AndrewJM70
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:08 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:14 am

In terms of regular service, probably the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser from the late 1940s, followed almost immediately by the Constallation. These aircraft had incredible range for their time, and could in theory fly to the West Coast non-stop from London (taking around 18 hours) but often stopped en route. Once the jet aircraft arrived non-stop service became the norm for East Coast Trans Atlantic flights and the turboprops went to domestic operations.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8682
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:15 am

leaving out the regular" qualifier:

Lufthansa Focke-Wulf FW 200 ( 4 engine passenger airliner )
Berlin Staaken to New York Floyd Bennet Field (24h) and back ( 19h), 45h overall.
August 11, 1938. imu the flight was with token payload.
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/arti ... 7sDSh22iK4

Planned as a route proving flight the upcoming War foundered all planning in that respect.
Last edited by WIederling on Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy is an optimist
 
jagraham
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:21 am

hz747300 wrote:
XAM2175 wrote:
The first ;andplane to carry at least one passenger across the Atlantic was NX237, a Wright-Bellanca WB-2 that departed Roosevelt Field, NY, on 4 June 1927 and arrived in Eisleben, Germany, 42 hours and 45 minutes later.

Granted this was a one-off, so you have to look a bit further for scheduled service, or indeed for two or more passengers :p


Cruise speed 91kts... That's a slow journey across the North Atlantic, but it should have been good for whale watching.


Compared to a ship at 25 its (and with iceberg risk) 91 kts was blazing fast
 
User avatar
vhqpa
Posts: 1616
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:21 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:22 am

Having a quick look at propliners I can't find anything conclusive but did find this on the wiki page for DC-7

Since the late 1940s Pan Am and other airlines had scheduled a few non-stop flights from New York to Europe, but westward non-stops against the prevailing wind were rarely possible with an economic payload. The L1049G and DC-7B that appeared in 1955 could occasionally make the westward trip, but in summer 1956 Pan Am's DC-7C finally started doing it fairly reliably.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-7

Again that is wiki so season with salt to taste.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:40 am

Honestly -leaving aside all one-offs and the proving flights- I think it's only fair to quote PAA and its Clippers in 1939 as the first regular service across the pond...
 
stratocruiser
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:41 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:29 am

AndrewJM70 wrote:
In terms of regular service, probably the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser from the late 1940s, followed almost immediately by the Constallation. These aircraft had incredible range for their time, and could in theory fly to the West Coast non-stop from London (taking around 18 hours) but often stopped en route. Once the jet aircraft arrived non-stop service became the norm for East Coast Trans Atlantic flights and the turboprops went to domestic operations.


The Constellation operated transatlantic services from about 1946 if I am correct which was a few years before the Stratocruiser entered service, but I think the earliest regular transatlantic landplane services were operated by DC-4s.
 
User avatar
capshandler
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:45 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:56 am

Interesting topic! I'd like to add another one on top if xjetflyer2001 allows me... At that time how crews managed weather issues? Specially under night conditions. And I'd like to share an experience of mine. Crossing the Atlantic with our SR22 on December 13' was pretty the same situation. The Iridium system was unavailable on those latitutes and no stormscope or wx radar on board. We entered some CBs as we weren't able to identify them (embedded inside a wider frontal front). I'd say that at that time of the year and that north, CB's arent as strong as someone would expect, but still it was a big mess up there. So my question is, how the first jets and even the Super Constellation dit to go over big WX phenomenon such summer embedded CBs that are a not detectable by the naked eye?
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 4711
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:22 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Honestly -leaving aside all one-offs and the proving flights- I think it's only fair to quote PAA and its Clippers in 1939 as the first regular service across the pond...


I'm with you on that, the first fixed wing aircraft on a regular schedule were Pan American from 1939 onwards.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
ELBOB
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:56 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:17 am

capshandler wrote:
So my question is, how the first jets and even the Super Constellation dit to go over big WX phenomenon such summer embedded CBs that are a not detectable by the naked eye?


They used to call ahead to the next ocean weather station ship and determine the best branching route. Like the airships, the propliners practised pressure-pattern flying ( aerologation )where they tried to ride the winds between highs and depressions instead of just ploughing straight ahead. The navigator really earned his pay in those days.

The most northerly ship was the Swedish-Norwegian Station Mike at 66N:

https://www.whoi.edu/cms/images/lstokey ... n_4698.gif

The first ships went on station in 1947 and the USA declared that it was withdrawing in 1953 as it had 'no further use' for the network. Thankfully by 1954 they had been presuaded to continue contributing, though with 11 ships instead of 14, and the other nations provided 15 ships.
Last edited by ELBOB on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8682
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:34 am

ClassicLover wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Honestly -leaving aside all one-offs and the proving flights- I think it's only fair to quote PAA and its Clippers in 1939 as the first regular service across the pond...


I'm with you on that, the first fixed wing aircraft on a regular schedule were Pan American from 1939 onwards.


"
an American’s B-314 Yankee Clipper departed Port Washington, New York for the first scheduled mail service across the Atlantic.
...
The ship flew the southern route across the Atlantic, landing in Lisbon the next afternoon after flight of approximately 27 hours (which included a stop at Horta in the Azores), and then flew to its final destination in Marseilles, France the next day."

That is not really "Non Stop" afaics.
Port Washington, Horta, Lisbon, Marseilles on the easy eastward leg.

Same for the northern route.
Murphy is an optimist
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:56 am

WIederling wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Honestly -leaving aside all one-offs and the proving flights- I think it's only fair to quote PAA and its Clippers in 1939 as the first regular service across the pond...


I'm with you on that, the first fixed wing aircraft on a regular schedule were Pan American from 1939 onwards.


"
an American’s B-314 Yankee Clipper departed Port Washington, New York for the first scheduled mail service across the Atlantic.
...
The ship flew the southern route across the Atlantic, landing in Lisbon the next afternoon after flight of approximately 27 hours (which included a stop at Horta in the Azores), and then flew to its final destination in Marseilles, France the next day."

That is not really "Non Stop" afaics.
Port Washington, Horta, Lisbon, Marseilles on the easy eastward leg.

Same for the northern route.


Please do note that technically speaking "non stop" simply means in fact with no aircraft change en route
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2601
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:12 am

oldannyboy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:

I'm with you on that, the first fixed wing aircraft on a regular schedule were Pan American from 1939 onwards.


"
an American’s B-314 Yankee Clipper departed Port Washington, New York for the first scheduled mail service across the Atlantic.
...
The ship flew the southern route across the Atlantic, landing in Lisbon the next afternoon after flight of approximately 27 hours (which included a stop at Horta in the Azores), and then flew to its final destination in Marseilles, France the next day."

That is not really "Non Stop" afaics.
Port Washington, Horta, Lisbon, Marseilles on the easy eastward leg.

Same for the northern route.


Please do note that technically speaking "non stop" simply means in fact with no aircraft change en route


That is quite peculiar.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3503
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:16 am

Well there are a host of variables, but as far as Non Stop in todays terms from say London to New York the Pan Am DC7B and the TWA L1049G were the first scheduled non stop airliners. The B377 did not have the range initially, and Pan Am had a number of them modified for N Atlantic service to increase the odds of making it without a technical stop in Gander or Shannon depending on direction. The DC7C was a big improvement over the earlier aircraft and along with the L1649 Constellation ruled the North Atlantic for several short years in the mid fifties.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:20 am

ushermittwoch wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
WIederling wrote:

"
an American’s B-314 Yankee Clipper departed Port Washington, New York for the first scheduled mail service across the Atlantic.
...
The ship flew the southern route across the Atlantic, landing in Lisbon the next afternoon after flight of approximately 27 hours (which included a stop at Horta in the Azores), and then flew to its final destination in Marseilles, France the next day."

That is not really "Non Stop" afaics.
Port Washington, Horta, Lisbon, Marseilles on the easy eastward leg.

Same for the northern route.


Please do note that technically speaking "non stop" simply means in fact with no aircraft change en route


That is quite peculiar.


Indeed, but any person with first hand experience with ABC World Airways Guides or real *hard copy* paper timetables experience from times long gone will be able to attest that a non-stop is actually a 'through', one-aircraft service. Lots of non-stops have refueling stops en route.
Back to topic: vast majority of transatlantic services up I'd say the early '60s were multi-stop, but were classed as non stops. Even PAA's initial jet non-stops had to often refuel westbound due to the limited range of the early straight-pipe 707..
 
WIederling
Posts: 8682
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:25 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Please do note that technically speaking "non stop" simply means in fact with no aircraft change en route


playing with goal posts here? :-)

from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-stop_flight
cite:
A non-stop flight is a flight by an aircraft with no intermediate stops.

from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_flight
cite:
A direct flight in the aviation industry is any flight between two points by an airline with no change in flight numbers, which includes one or more stops at an intermediate point(s).[1] A stop may either be to get new passengers (or allow some to disembark) or a technical stop over (i.e., for refuelling).

addendum, cite from the second link:
Direct flights are often confused with non-stop flights, which are flights involving no intermediate stops.[2] When there is a change in flight number, the subsequent flight is referred to as a connecting flight.
Last edited by WIederling on Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy is an optimist
 
prestwick
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:15 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:28 am

I seem to remember my father saying that he had flown on a Lancastrian between Prestwick and Montreal with a stop in Gander. He was stationed in Canada as an instructor for the RAF and later worked for TCA so whether he was on a TCA flight or RAF i'm not sure but it would probably have been 1945.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6309
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:53 pm

prestwick wrote:
I seem to remember my father saying that he had flown on a Lancastrian between Prestwick and Montreal with a stop in Gander. He was stationed in Canada as an instructor for the RAF and later worked for TCA so whether he was on a TCA flight or RAF i'm not sure but it would probably have been 1945.

That sounds correct, a division of TCA, CGTAS Canadian Government Trans-Atlantic Air Service operated 10 passenger Lancastrians across the Atlantic during the mid 1940s for military and cargo (postal) transport.

Eventually, CGTAS operated the newly delivered Canadair DC-4M1s along the same route under the name, Trans-Canada Overseas Services. This evetually merged into TCA with the introduction of the DC-4M2s.

But it wasn't until the introduction of the L1049G that non-stops were planned from London to either Montreal or Toronto.

So it really depends on what one means by "non-stop". You mean London to New York, as London to Gander is non-stop across the Atlantic too? ;)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
xjetflyer2001
Topic Author
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:20 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:34 pm

In terms of regularly scheduled passenger service across the Atlantic East & West non stop's sounds like the DC-7C, not counting seaplanes or air ships. It's very interesting and amazing just in that short of a time period (1956) since we have truly been able to cross the Atlantic both ways with out an intermediate stop as passengers, only 62 years, that's pretty wild in my opinion
 
CairnterriAIR
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:52 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:50 pm

Interesting topic of which I can’t seem to find a definitive answer. But narrowing it down in reference to your keywords of regular nonstop passenger service and no airboats or airships....and looking at aircraft performance, I’m going with either the Douglas DC-7 or later versions of the Lockheed Constellation. Those are the earliest types that would have the range to perform transatlantic operations with a normal payload....mid to late 1950’s.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3064
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:53 pm

A west bound stop at Gander is trans-Atlantic nonstop, but on an Island, not quite the Continent. But then again most flights to New York are not quite to the continent. LOL
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14882
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:56 pm

WIederling wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Please do note that technically speaking "non stop" simply means in fact with no aircraft change en route


playing with goal posts here? :-)

from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-stop_flight
cite:
A non-stop flight is a flight by an aircraft with no intermediate stops.

from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_flight
cite:
A direct flight in the aviation industry is any flight between two points by an airline with no change in flight numbers, which includes one or more stops at an intermediate point(s).[1] A stop may either be to get new passengers (or allow some to disembark) or a technical stop over (i.e., for refuelling).

addendum, cite from the second link:
Direct flights are often confused with non-stop flights, which are flights involving no intermediate stops.[2] When there is a change in flight number, the subsequent flight is referred to as a connecting flight.

I think what they are saying is that despite many of these services claiming nonstop they routinely did stop for fuel but the carriers didn’t see it as a real stop as no passengers were emplaned or deplaned.

It’s kind of like how when I used to drive long distances I considered it “non-stop” if I didn’t stay in a hotel. Leaving at 8am from Ohio and arriving South Florida at 1 am was nonstop even though I obviously had to stop for gas and snacks.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
bob75013
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:20 pm

I seem to remember taking a Constellation from Idelwild (now dates me doesn't it) to Amsterdam as part of a Midway/Idelwild/Amersterdam/Prague journey in the summer of 1959
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:33 pm

"Regular" sustained non-stop service over the Atlantic didn't really exist until Intercontinental versions of the 707 and DC-8 were available. Certainly not trans-Pacific.
The previous piston-powered aircraft were too unreliable and or used too much oil or both. Frequently, especially with the big Pratts on the -377's or the Wright 3350's you would run out of oil before running out of fuel. Even the propeller-turbine engines back in the day were unreliable and suffered lengthy teething troubles in some instances. Westbound was a really iffy process especially during the winter months.

PA's first 707's could not sustain non-stop trans-pacific or trans-Atlantic, and even NW's DC-8's (and PA's) with the JT-4's fell short of range guaranties, trans-Pacific. Oh, Douglas did some tweaking and improved things slightly, however, the shortcomings in range were not cured until the advent of the DC-8 Series 62. The Intercontinental Boeing 707-300 series finally allowed for regularly sustained trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific service without serious weight restriction.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
xjetflyer2001
Topic Author
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:20 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:46 pm

ImperialEagle wrote:
"Regular" sustained non-stop service over the Atlantic didn't really exist until Intercontinental versions of the 707 and DC-8 were available. Certainly not trans-Pacific.
The previous piston-powered aircraft were too unreliable and or used too much oil or both. Frequently, especially with the big Pratts on the -377's or the Wright 3350's you would run out of oil before running out of fuel. Even the propeller-turbine engines back in the day were unreliable and suffered lengthy teething troubles in some instances. Westbound was a really iffy process especially during the winter months.

PA's first 707's could not sustain non-stop trans-pacific or trans-Atlantic, and even NW's DC-8's (and PA's) with the JT-4's fell short of range guaranties, trans-Pacific. Oh, Douglas did some tweaking and improved things slightly, however, the shortcomings in range were not cured until the advent of the DC-8 Series 62. The Intercontinental Boeing 707-300 series finally allowed for regularly sustained trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific service without serious weight restriction.


Very Interesting, thanks for that rundown ImperialEagle
 
B8887
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:47 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:09 pm

I'm also in for the Constellation and/or the Stratocruiser duo, in terms of regular, scheduled, timetabled service..

I saw some timetables of that not long ago..

Regards.

B8887
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3503
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:11 pm

ImperialEagle wrote:
"Regular" sustained non-stop service over the Atlantic didn't really exist until Intercontinental versions of the 707 and DC-8 were available. Certainly not trans-Pacific.
The previous piston-powered aircraft were too unreliable and or used too much oil or both. Frequently, especially with the big Pratts on the -377's or the Wright 3350's you would run out of oil before running out of fuel. Even the propeller-turbine engines back in the day were unreliable and suffered lengthy teething troubles in some instances. Westbound was a really iffy process especially during the winter months.

PA's first 707's could not sustain non-stop trans-pacific or trans-Atlantic, and even NW's DC-8's (and PA's) with the JT-4's fell short of range guaranties, trans-Pacific. Oh, Douglas did some tweaking and improved things slightly, however, the shortcomings in range were not cured until the advent of the DC-8 Series 62. The Intercontinental Boeing 707-300 series finally allowed for regularly sustained trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific service without serious weight restriction.


The L1049G, DC7B and B377 all had aux oil tanks that could xfer oil to the respective engine while in flight, so the oil issue was not as bad as you may think. Pan Am DC7B had additional fuel carried in "saddle tanks" above and just aft of the engines. This was an option that only a few airlines opted for.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4068
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:12 pm

What an era that must have been! My mother’s side of the family was Scottish and with my grandmother’s 13 siblings, half of whom immigrated to NYC in 1917, there were trips every 2 years on the Queen Mary. I had asked my mother numerous times about when the family decided to fly instead of a 4/5 day trip to Liverpool.
She said she could not recall her first flight, however she said it was pretty soon after the war. She did say it took until the mid 1960’s before some family members overcame the fear of flying.
Mine was 1964 from JFK to Prestwick on a VC-10! PanAm 707 on the return.
By that time flying was akin to the internet, if you were in your 20’s or 30’s by 1959- FLY!
I’m sorry if I’m not adding much about the “first” nonstop (and I mean point to point without stopping) but the one thing I am EXTREMELY curious about is without computers- how did an airline sell seats on a flight without double booking seats and WAY over booking a flight if all they used were stickers in a book? How did they know, when did they know a flight was sold out, or if seats 24A, B & C were already taken, if passengers from any side of the Atlantic were simultaneously booking via travel agents?
Apologies for the side bar!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
LovePlanes74
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:30 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:17 pm

Never had the chance to ask anyone, and sorry for going off topic, but VC10er, how was the VC10, the most beautiful plane ever, esp. in BOAC colours
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3503
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:36 pm

I rode the jump seat on East African both ways from Nairobi to Heathrow back in the early seventies. I believe it was a Super VC10? Very interesting airplane for sure.
 
LovePlanes74
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:30 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:53 pm

Wow, would have loved a chance to fly it
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5240
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:51 pm

ikramerica wrote:
It was a German rigid airship, no? Graf Zeppelin

:checkmark:

From 1932 the Graf Zeppelin served on the Germany to South America route, with the Hindenburg joining the fleet in 1936 and operating 17 round trips on the North Atlantic that year.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
timz
Posts: 6567
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:39 pm

Aside from the Hindenburg, the first regularly scheduled nonstops from the US to Europe were Pan Am L749s in late 1947. They started out winter-only, presumably due to the tailwinds. The 12/48 OAG says "Pan American Airways has resumed daily non-stop [eastward] service between New York and London after a discontinuance since last spring."

First nonstops Asia to the US were also eastward only, winter only: PA Tokyo to San Francisco. In 12/59 the schedule was 11 hrs including a fuel stop; in 6/60 PA was all via HNL; in 3/61 one weekly flight took 9 hr 30 min TYO to SFO. In 5/61 the once-weekly schedule was 12 hrs including a stop; in 1/62, the twice-weekly nonstop took 9-35. Back to 12 hrs with a stop in 5/62 (now 3/week).
 
timz
Posts: 6567
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:27 pm

First scheduled nonstop US to Asia was a weekly NW 707 SEA to TYO in 1963-- it's in the 12/63 OAG and not in the 8/63. SFO to Tokyo seems to have been years later, and LA to Tokyo may not have started until the 747SP.
 
User avatar
SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1711
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:09 am

ikramerica wrote:
It’s kind of like how when I used to drive long distances I considered it “non-stop” if I didn’t stay in a hotel. Leaving at 8am from Ohio and arriving South Florida at 1 am was nonstop even though I obviously had to stop for gas and snacks.


When I've done that kind of mammoth drive I still wouldn't describe it as non-stop, but I would say something like "all the way in one go, with just a couple of pit-stops in X & Y". I wouldn't say non-stop since my friends and family would feel like I do; that non-stop means literally no stop(*) between getting in the car (aircraft) and arriving at the destination.

(*) excepting at junctions, of course - in before the pedants get here...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
xdlx
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:51 am

I assume the question was about "scheduled service" and as stated the 337 and the DC-7 had the performance but not the reliability to sustain "nonstop in both directions". However fast forward to today attempts to do it in B757 & A321LXBR*5 or 739ERXZPDQ.... against prevailing winds in the winter and we still see stops short of intended destination REGULARLY.....
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3503
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:51 pm

timz wrote:
Aside from the Hindenburg, the first regularly scheduled nonstops from the US to Europe were Pan Am L749s in late 1947. They started out winter-only, presumably due to the tailwinds. The 12/48 OAG says "Pan American Airways has resumed daily non-stop [eastward] service between New York and London after a discontinuance since last spring."

First nonstops Asia to the US were also eastward only, winter only: PA Tokyo to San Francisco. In 12/59 the schedule was 11 hrs including a fuel stop; in 6/60 PA was all via HNL; in 3/61 one weekly flight took 9 hr 30 min TYO to SFO. In 5/61 the once-weekly schedule was 12 hrs including a stop; in 1/62, the twice-weekly nonstop took 9-35. Back to 12 hrs with a stop in 5/62 (now 3/week).



I don't care what PAA said, the 049/749 Constellation was not capable of a non stop crossing, unless you consider Gander to Shannon a North Atlantic crossing. The 749 would not do LAX-LGA, much less the LGA, IDW, to LHR. Ditto for the Starts until they were modified around 1954.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:06 pm

Maybe not the type of transatlantic service you'd usually be thinking about, but in 1934 KLM flew the Fokker F.XVIII "Snip" from Amsterdam to Curacao. On the way it made stops in Marseilles, Alicante, Casablanca, Porto Praia, Paramaribo, La Guaira (Venuzuela) and finally Curacao. The Porto Praia - Paramaribo leg took 17 hours and given that this does cross the Atlantic it would count as TATL. KLM had the aircraft fitted with 6 extra fuel tanks for this trip.
 
timz
Posts: 6567
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:37 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I don't care what PAA said, the 049/749 Constellation was not capable of a non stop crossing

The 749 was, of course, with winter tailwinds if not with summer. That's why Pan Am showed "Non-Stop" in their winter timetable, starting in 1948. AOA and BOAC were then flying 049s, so Pan Am had no need to lie about flying it nonstop -- they didn't need to worry about keeping up with their competition to London.

(If you want something to disbelieve, try the Panair do Brasil L049 that reportedly flew Lisbon to Rio nonstop -- 1 January 1953 I think it was.)

When KLM was locked out of India, for a few months (?) circa 1949, the ABC Guide shows their 749s nonstop Mauritius to Batavia.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 692
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:48 am

While browsing in a used bookstore years ago I stumbled upon Flight Overseas by Henry B. Lent, published in 1957. Although clearly written for an aviation novice, this 169-page book is nevertheless an airline time machine into the mid-fifties and particularly because the last half is devoted to a TWA 1049 "Super-G" flight from Idlewild to London Heathrow.

From dispatch planning through the long overnight flight of TWA 860 it's clear that even a routine trip via Super Constellation across the Atlantic was still anything but mundane. As N7106C, the Star of Cylon leaves IDL it slowly climbs to an initial altitude of 11,000 feet as the crew navigates first via VORs, then ADF and finally as it heads-out past Nantucket over the north Atlantic, celestial navigation. A TWA navigator stands-up in cockpit and deploys a sextant through the top of the fuselage to get a fix on Vega and Polaris. Surprisingly there is no mention in the book of Loran stations or Loran-C for transatlantic airline flight navigation in the years before Doppler and INS.

Still lumbering along at low blower at 11,000 flight 860 encounters rime ice forcing the relief captain to use the Constellation's rubber-a-go-go leading edge expansion boots and alcohol prop deicers. Finally, hours later nearing Ireland as dawn breaks at 19,000 feet the crew receive an update on Heathrow's ceiling and visibility; not good and forecast to remain below 200 and a half by their arrival time. They loiter for a bit hoping for the London fog to lift before diverting to Shannon to refuel. A nonstop transatlantic flight in the mid-fifties was an endurance test for passengers and crew alike.

Note: This book appears on Amazon ever so once in awhile and well worth the asking price.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3503
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:25 am

Here is an interesting piece regarding NAT crossings in the fifties. Note the comments at the end of the story. Chilling to say the least


http://propspistonsandoldairliners.blog ... annon.html
 
User avatar
fraspotter
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 8:12 pm

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:38 pm

ImperialEagle wrote:
"Regular" sustained non-stop service over the Atlantic didn't really exist until Intercontinental versions of the 707 and DC-8 were available. Certainly not trans-Pacific.
The previous piston-powered aircraft were too unreliable and or used too much oil or both. Frequently, especially with the big Pratts on the -377's or the Wright 3350's you would run out of oil before running out of fuel. Even the propeller-turbine engines back in the day were unreliable and suffered lengthy teething troubles in some instances. Westbound was a really iffy process especially during the winter months.

PA's first 707's could not sustain non-stop trans-pacific or trans-Atlantic, and even NW's DC-8's (and PA's) with the JT-4's fell short of range guaranties, trans-Pacific. Oh, Douglas did some tweaking and improved things slightly, however, the shortcomings in range were not cured until the advent of the DC-8 Series 62. The Intercontinental Boeing 707-300 series finally allowed for regularly sustained trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific service without serious weight restriction.


Interesting. The OP's original question mentioned "regular" which could mean anything from twice a week to twice a month (so long as it was on a set schedule). Is there any way to find out what the first DAILY regular flights across the Atlantic and Pacific were? Surely this must have been after the dawn of the Jet age (Pan Am 747s maybe?) but who knows.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:34 pm

highflier92660 wrote:
While browsing in a used bookstore years ago I stumbled upon Flight Overseas by Henry B. Lent, published in 1957. Although clearly written for an aviation novice, this 169-page book is nevertheless an airline time machine into the mid-fifties and particularly because the last half is devoted to a TWA 1049 "Super-G" flight from Idlewild to London Heathrow.

From dispatch planning through the long overnight flight of TWA 860 it's clear that even a routine trip via Super Constellation across the Atlantic was still anything but mundane. As N7106C, the Star of Cylon leaves IDL it slowly climbs to an initial altitude of 11,000 feet as the crew navigates first via VORs, then ADF and finally as it heads-out past Nantucket over the north Atlantic, celestial navigation. A TWA navigator stands-up in cockpit and deploys a sextant through the top of the fuselage to get a fix on Vega and Polaris. Surprisingly there is no mention in the book of Loran stations or Loran-C for transatlantic airline flight navigation in the years before Doppler and INS.

Still lumbering along at low blower at 11,000 flight 860 encounters rime ice forcing the relief captain to use the Constellation's rubber-a-go-go leading edge expansion boots and alcohol prop deicers. Finally, hours later nearing Ireland as dawn breaks at 19,000 feet the crew receive an update on Heathrow's ceiling and visibility; not good and forecast to remain below 200 and a half by their arrival time. They loiter for a bit hoping for the London fog to lift before diverting to Shannon to refuel. A nonstop transatlantic flight in the mid-fifties was an endurance test for passengers and crew alike.

Note: This book appears on Amazon ever so once in awhile and well worth the asking price.


Thanks highflier, that was fun to read. From a safe place...
 
timz
Posts: 6567
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:23 pm

fraspotter wrote:
Is there any way to find out what the first DAILY regular flights across the Atlantic and Pacific were?

PA's winter-only nonstop LGA to LHR was daily in 1947/48. Daily Tokyo to the US probably started in the early 1960s -- offhand guess is NW to Seattle.
 
timz
Posts: 6567
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:47 pm

NW had daily nonstops TYO to SEA in summer 1964 -- looks like no one beat that.

(No one beat that for daily nonstops Asia to the US, but forgot to check CP Tokyo to Vancouver. Couldn't have been daily then, tho.)
 
fishmeal
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2001 1:40 am

Re: What was 1st type of aircraft to offer regular Non Stop passenger service across the Atlantic?

Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:47 am

I think I've mentioned this in another thread, so forgive me if I'm boring you. As a 10 year old I flew with my mother and two brothers from Oakland to Naha on a Transocean L749 to join my father, who was working for the Air Force on Okinawa. The trip began on the 25th of June, 1958 and ended in the wee hours of June 28th, with stops in Honolulu, Wake and Guam. It took about 39 hours, with about 29 hours of actual flying time. The return trip 3 years later was by DC-8 from Manila to Seattle on Northwest with stops in Naha, Tokyo and Anchorage (where we switched to a DC-6B). That took about 4 or 5 days with stops in Japan and Alaska for sight-seeing. My first Atlantic crossing was in 1967 on Icelandic Airlines from Goteborg to JFK with a change of planes in Reykjavik: it took all night. A DC-6B made the hop from Sweden to Iceland where I boarded the sleek CL-44 for the completion of the trip. There were 3 seats at the front of the cabin facing the rear...I had the window seat looking back at the right wing. I don't mind today's long range jets, but I think you had more personal space on the old prop jobs.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos