720B
Topic Author
Posts: 233
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Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:32 am

As per Airline routes, Avianca is planning a second daily flight to Buenos Aires as of March 2019. Flight to be operated by Airbus A320 aircraft.


https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... arch-2019/

AV217 BOG1336 – 2158EZE 320 D
AV087 BOG2112 – 0524+1EZE 330 D

AV218 EZE0024 – 0455BOG 320 D
AV088 EZE0709 – 1130BOG 330 D
 
Caribbean007
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:03 pm

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:29 pm

720B wrote:
As per Airline routes, Avianca is planning a second daily flight to Buenos Aires as of March 2019. Flight to be operated by Airbus A320 aircraft.


https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... arch-2019/

AV217 BOG1336 – 2158EZE 320 D
AV087 BOG2112 – 0524+1EZE 330 D

AV218 EZE0024 – 0455BOG 320 D
AV088 EZE0709 – 1130BOG 330 D


Great, more options, and I hope prices drop too.
 
LatinAirliner
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:28 pm

Finally after many years, the Argentinian government open the possibility to have more frequencies with Colombia. For sure this is not going to be the only frequency increase in this market, 2019 will bring a lot of new possibilities between Colombia and Argentina.
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
dcajet
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:12 pm

LatinAirliner wrote:
Finally after many years, the Argentinian government open the possibility to have more frequencies with Colombia. For sure this is not going to be the only frequency increase in this market, 2019 will bring a lot of new possibilities between Colombia and Argentina.


The above statement is not true. As you know, air transport between two countries is governed by a bilateral agreement. In this case, the impasse had to do with the Colombian part not wishing to grant Argentina fifth freedom rights for points beyond Colombia. As a response to that, Argentina refused giving Colombia further frequencies on the route. A temporary solution was reached first that allowed AV to serve EZE daily until the new bilateral was signed, one that increases frequencies for both sides (new airlines in Argentina such as Flybondi and Norwegian have route authority to serve between the 2 countries) as well as 5th freedom rights beyond points in both countries e.g. EZE-BOG-LAX.

BTW, the topic was already being discussed on here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405461/. Please do a search before posting.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
LatinAirliner
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:47 pm

dcajet wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
Finally after many years, the Argentinian government open the possibility to have more frequencies with Colombia. For sure this is not going to be the only frequency increase in this market, 2019 will bring a lot of new possibilities between Colombia and Argentina.


The above statement is not true. As you know, air transport between two countries is governed by a bilateral agreement. In this case, the impasse had to do with the Colombian part not wishing to grant Argentina fifth freedom rights for points beyond Colombia. As a response to that, Argentina refused giving Colombia further frequencies on the route. A temporary solution was reached first that allowed AV to serve EZE daily until the new bilateral was signed, one that increases frequencies for both sides (new airlines in Argentina such as Flybondi and Norwegian have route authority to serve between the 2 countries) as well as 5th freedom rights beyond points in both countries e.g. EZE-BOG-LAX.

BTW, the topic was already being discussed on here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405461/. Please do a search before posting.


You just told what I post before. Argentina's government decided to no approve more frequencies. It's completely unfair for Colombia to have to authorize fifth freedom just for having flights between the two countries. So the real originator of the problem was Argentinian government, its completely understandable why Colombia would not want to have fifth freedom, they are on an strategic geographical location for Argentinian airlines to take advantage of that fifth freedom, for Colombian airlines to have fifth freedom with Argentina doesn't make sense, and is completely unusable.
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3750
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Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:08 pm

Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon. The A320NEO will finally let AV fly 6-7 hour sectors from BOG on narrowbodies and increase capacity on other medium-haul sectors formerly flown by the A319 (JFK, GIG, SCL, etc) profitably. Watch out PTY!
 
Etheereal
Posts: 144
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Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:25 pm

Dear God, can AV please stop shoving 320s in these "long" haul routes please? I dont want to spend 7* hours on a single aisle.
 
RCS763AV
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Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:40 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Dear God, can AV please stop shoving 320s in these "long" haul routes please? I dont want to spend 7* hours on a single aisle.


BOG-EZE is 6:10 at most. In order to make the BOG hub more competitive they need to increase frequency with these narrowbodies. The capital/financing cost of widebodies is too much and they're only going to be put in the most premium medium haul markets/frequencies. You're going to be seeing plenty of those especially to secondary cities. I do expect this second EZE frequency to become an A330/787 at some point in the next three years though.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:43 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon. The A320NEO will finally let AV fly 6-7 hour sectors from BOG on narrowbodies and increase capacity on other medium-haul sectors formerly flown by the A319 (JFK, GIG, SCL, etc) profitably. Watch out PTY!


Does Avianca actively sale connections between Argentina and Europe via BOG? I checked MAD-BOG-EZE is 26.3% longer than MAD-EZE non-stop. Quite a detour but I guess a few people will make it if the fare is right.

As for ROS or COR, things would be more equal flying via BOG than non-stop to EZE and then another flight or land transportation to Rosario or Cordoba.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 144
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Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:43 pm

They are already doing this on SCL, and its tiresome. Then again AV is on a bad spot so i guess the have to do that.
 
RCS763AV
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Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:05 pm

Etheereal wrote:
They are already doing this on SCL, and its tiresome. Then again AV is on a bad spot so i guess the have to do that.


CM exclusively uses narrow bodies on routes like PTY-SFO, MVD, EZE, GRU, GIG and SCL itself and is very successful at it. LATAM also does this one one of its two BOG-GRU. The usage of narrowbodies is not related to AV being in a bad spot (and I wouldn't call it a bad spot just some necessary restructuring).

SCL has 1 widebody and two narrowbody frequencies to BOG on AV. That means 3x the frequency and 3x the connection possibilities they had at the BOG hub when they only had one daily widebody a couple of years ago. When SCL warrants it, like GRU does, it will probably go all wide body, but the market still has to mature and the airline can better spend its resources on using widebodies on routes with higher yield/volume.

Anyhow, all the increased connectivity to Buenos Aires is great. Let's see how long it takes the LCCs to hop on the route and lower the prices!
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:09 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon. The A320NEO will finally let AV fly 6-7 hour sectors from BOG on narrowbodies and increase capacity on other medium-haul sectors formerly flown by the A319 (JFK, GIG, SCL, etc) profitably. Watch out PTY!


Does Avianca actively sale connections between Argentina and Europe via BOG? I checked MAD-BOG-EZE is 26.3% longer than MAD-EZE non-stop. Quite a detour but I guess a few people will make it if the fare is right.

As for ROS or COR, things would be more equal flying via BOG than non-stop to EZE and then another flight or land transportation to Rosario or Cordoba.


I don't this AV is focusing so much on Buenos Aires - Europe traffic but more on Buenos Aires-Caribbean/USA/Central America traffic which is still a big chunk and perfectly served by BOG's location.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:13 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon. The A320NEO will finally let AV fly 6-7 hour sectors from BOG on narrowbodies and increase capacity on other medium-haul sectors formerly flown by the A319 (JFK, GIG, SCL, etc) profitably. Watch out PTY!


Does Avianca actively sale connections between Argentina and Europe via BOG? I checked MAD-BOG-EZE is 26.3% longer than MAD-EZE non-stop. Quite a detour but I guess a few people will make it if the fare is right.

As for ROS or COR, things would be more equal flying via BOG than non-stop to EZE and then another flight or land transportation to Rosario or Cordoba.


I don't think they focus much on BA-Europe traffic as BOG is quite the detour. I guess AV will be focusing on BA-Central America/Caribbean/USA traffic which is perfectly served via BOG. Plus the large, severely unattended local O/D market which is flying via LIM, PTY, GRU and SCL mostly.

As you point out, BOG might be an interesting option for COR and ROS originating passengers due to their more limited options and cumbersome change of airports in Buenos Aires (although AR has been keeping a fuller domestic schedule out of EZE lately).
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:13 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon. The A320NEO will finally let AV fly 6-7 hour sectors from BOG on narrowbodies and increase capacity on other medium-haul sectors formerly flown by the A319 (JFK, GIG, SCL, etc) profitably. Watch out PTY!


Does Avianca actively sale connections between Argentina and Europe via BOG? I checked MAD-BOG-EZE is 26.3% longer than MAD-EZE non-stop. Quite a detour but I guess a few people will make it if the fare is right.

As for ROS or COR, things would be more equal flying via BOG than non-stop to EZE and then another flight or land transportation to Rosario or Cordoba.


I don't think they focus much on BA-Europe traffic as BOG is quite the detour. I guess AV will be focusing on BA-Central America/Caribbean/USA traffic which is perfectly served via BOG. Plus the large, severely unattended local O/D market which is flying via LIM, PTY, GRU and SCL mostly.

As you point out, BOG might be an interesting option for COR and ROS originating passengers due to their more limited options and cumbersome change of airports in Buenos Aires (although AR has been keeping a fuller domestic schedule out of EZE lately).
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:16 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon. The A320NEO will finally let AV fly 6-7 hour sectors from BOG on narrowbodies and increase capacity on other medium-haul sectors formerly flown by the A319 (JFK, GIG, SCL, etc) profitably. Watch out PTY!


Does Avianca actively sale connections between Argentina and Europe via BOG? I checked MAD-BOG-EZE is 26.3% longer than MAD-EZE non-stop. Quite a detour but I guess a few people will make it if the fare is right.

As for ROS or COR, things would be more equal flying via BOG than non-stop to EZE and then another flight or land transportation to Rosario or Cordoba.


I don't think they focus much on BA-Europe traffic as BOG is quite the detour. I guess AV will be focusing on BA-Central America/Caribbean/USA traffic which is perfectly served via BOG. Plus the large, severely unattended local O/D market which is flying via LIM, PTY, GRU and SCL mostly.

As you point out, BOG might be an interesting option for COR and ROS originating passengers due to their more limited options and cumbersome change of airports in Buenos Aires (although AR has been keeping a fuller domestic schedule out of EZE lately).
 
pipeafcr
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:17 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon.


My bet for next route would be EZE-CTG-EZE
Felipe Carrillo
 
dcajet
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:49 am

LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
Finally after many years, the Argentinian government open the possibility to have more frequencies with Colombia. For sure this is not going to be the only frequency increase in this market, 2019 will bring a lot of new possibilities between Colombia and Argentina.


The above statement is not true. As you know, air transport between two countries is governed by a bilateral agreement. In this case, the impasse had to do with the Colombian part not wishing to grant Argentina fifth freedom rights for points beyond Colombia. As a response to that, Argentina refused giving Colombia further frequencies on the route. A temporary solution was reached first that allowed AV to serve EZE daily until the new bilateral was signed, one that increases frequencies for both sides (new airlines in Argentina such as Flybondi and Norwegian have route authority to serve between the 2 countries) as well as 5th freedom rights beyond points in both countries e.g. EZE-BOG-LAX.

BTW, the topic was already being discussed on here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405461/. Please do a search before posting.


You just told what I post before. Argentina's government decided to no approve more frequencies. It's completely unfair for Colombia to have to authorize fifth freedom just for having flights between the two countries. So the real originator of the problem was Argentinian government, its completely understandable why Colombia would not want to have fifth freedom, they are on an strategic geographical location for Argentinian airlines to take advantage of that fifth freedom, for Colombian airlines to have fifth freedom with Argentina doesn't make sense, and is completely unusable.


I don't think so. I told you how negotiations went, If you want to put your own spin on then, be my guest. Business is business.

SCQ83 wrote:
Does Avianca actively sale connections between Argentina and Europe via BOG? I checked MAD-BOG-EZE is 26.3% longer than MAD-EZE non-stop. Quite a detour but I guess a few people will make it if the fare is right.

As for ROS or COR, things would be more equal flying via BOG than non-stop to EZE and then another flight or land transportation to Rosario or Cordoba.


No they do not. Argentina is extremely well connected to Europe and with fares falling every day, LH LCC like LEVEL and Norwegian, etc., it'd be almost lunacy to do that route.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
dcajet
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:56 am

RCS763AV wrote:

As you point out, BOG might be an interesting option for COR and ROS originating passengers due to their more limited options and cumbersome change of airports in Buenos Aires (although AR has been keeping a fuller domestic schedule out of EZE lately).


Well, COR has its own daily connection to MAD on UX, and is well connected to GRU and SCL with LATAM, and to EZE with AR. as well as to GIG with G3. Effective next April, COR will have its own direct connection to MIA on AA.

ROS,TUC and MDZ all have connections to GRU & SCL on LATAM, as well as GIG on G3 and EZE on AR.

CM also provides great connections from ROS, MDZ, COR and SLA via PTY. A slice of that market is what, IMO, AV should go after, both via LIM and BOG.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
LatinAirliner
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:39 pm

dcajet wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:

The above statement is not true. As you know, air transport between two countries is governed by a bilateral agreement. In this case, the impasse had to do with the Colombian part not wishing to grant Argentina fifth freedom rights for points beyond Colombia. As a response to that, Argentina refused giving Colombia further frequencies on the route. A temporary solution was reached first that allowed AV to serve EZE daily until the new bilateral was signed, one that increases frequencies for both sides (new airlines in Argentina such as Flybondi and Norwegian have route authority to serve between the 2 countries) as well as 5th freedom rights beyond points in both countries e.g. EZE-BOG-LAX.

BTW, the topic was already being discussed on here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405461/. Please do a search before posting.


You just told what I post before. Argentina's government decided to no approve more frequencies. It's completely unfair for Colombia to have to authorize fifth freedom just for having flights between the two countries. So the real originator of the problem was Argentinian government, its completely understandable why Colombia would not want to have fifth freedom, they are on an strategic geographical location for Argentinian airlines to take advantage of that fifth freedom, for Colombian airlines to have fifth freedom with Argentina doesn't make sense, and is completely unusable.


I don't think so. I told you how negotiations went, If you want to put your own spin on then, be my guest. Business is business.


Yes I know how negotiations came, we already got the results out of them. Fortunately Avianca was the first to take advantage out of them, that's the way it should be.
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
dcajet
Posts: 2985
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:01 pm

LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:

You just told what I post before. Argentina's government decided to no approve more frequencies. It's completely unfair for Colombia to have to authorize fifth freedom just for having flights between the two countries. So the real originator of the problem was Argentinian government, its completely understandable why Colombia would not want to have fifth freedom, they are on an strategic geographical location for Argentinian airlines to take advantage of that fifth freedom, for Colombian airlines to have fifth freedom with Argentina doesn't make sense, and is completely unusable.


I don't think so. I told you how negotiations went, If you want to put your own spin on then, be my guest. Business is business.


Yes I know how negotiations came, we already got the results out of them. Fortunately Avianca was the first to take advantage out of them, that's the way it should be.


With all due respect, how old are you? Because if that is the best answer an adult can come up with... Jeez.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:08 pm

pipeafcr wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon.


My bet for next route would be EZE-CTG-EZE


I only see charters on AR for that route or something on Norwegian, but in the medium term. LIM and PTY are taking good care of the traffic until it garners enough volume to warrant a direct flight. CTG airport authorities have stated they are focusing on a flight to GRU at the moment.

AV has already declared they want to fly to secondary cities in Argentina from BOG.
 
dcajet
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Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:20 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Nice increase. Let's wait for COR and ROS to come online soon.


My bet for next route would be EZE-CTG-EZE


I only see charters on AR for that route or something on Norwegian, but in the medium term. LIM and PTY are taking good care of the traffic until it garners enough volume to warrant a direct flight. CTG airport authorities have stated they are focusing on a flight to GRU at the moment.

AV has already declared they want to fly to secondary cities in Argentina from BOG.


I would be surprised if we see any new services from secondary cities in Argentina for the next 6-12 mos. With the current economic blues there, the focus is more on internal travel rather than foreign trips and for the most part, these cities are more about outbound travel than inbound, with the exception of MDZ and SLA. The good news is that none of the existing services has been cancelled, save for SKY's ROS-SCL and the outlook for Brazil, the big draw for the Argentinian vacationer, is still positive, with quite a few new services from EZE, TUC, MDZ, ROS & COR.

CM is also upgauging one of the 2 COR dailies to the MAX 9; EZE will get it too on selected days, on of the 3 daily flights, beginning Dec. 9.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Aeropostale
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:49 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:14 pm

LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
Finally after many years, the Argentinian government open the possibility to have more frequencies with Colombia. For sure this is not going to be the only frequency increase in this market, 2019 will bring a lot of new possibilities between Colombia and Argentina.


The above statement is not true. As you know, air transport between two countries is governed by a bilateral agreement. In this case, the impasse had to do with the Colombian part not wishing to grant Argentina fifth freedom rights for points beyond Colombia. As a response to that, Argentina refused giving Colombia further frequencies on the route. A temporary solution was reached first that allowed AV to serve EZE daily until the new bilateral was signed, one that increases frequencies for both sides (new airlines in Argentina such as Flybondi and Norwegian have route authority to serve between the 2 countries) as well as 5th freedom rights beyond points in both countries e.g. EZE-BOG-LAX.

BTW, the topic was already being discussed on here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405461/. Please do a search before posting.


You just told what I post before. Argentina's government decided to no approve more frequencies. It's completely unfair for Colombia to have to authorize fifth freedom just for having flights between the two countries. So the real originator of the problem was Argentinian government, its completely understandable why Colombia would not want to have fifth freedom, they are on an strategic geographical location for Argentinian airlines to take advantage of that fifth freedom, for Colombian airlines to have fifth freedom with Argentina doesn't make sense, and is completely unusable.


There is nothing “unfair” about it. These agreements seek to offer equal or at least similar conditions for companies from both countries to compete against each other. Evidently Colombia wants these additional frequencies not only to carry more passengers between both countries, but also beyond Colombia to third countries. At least that’s the main goal of Avianca, the only Colombian carrier currently flying to Argentina.

It is therefore understandable (and fair) that Argentina seeks for its carriers the possibility to pick up passengers in Colombia and fly them from there to third countries just as Colombian carriers get the possibility to carry passengers from Argentina via Colombia to third countries. Luckily for Colombia, the current Argentine government is much more eager to increase capacity to Argentina than to safeguard conditions for its own carriers to compete internationally.

In any case Colombia’s year-long reluctance to negotiate fifth freedom rights for Argentine carriers just shows that they haven’t been any more interested than Argentina in promoting competition between both countries.
 
LatinAirliner
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:36 pm

dcajet wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:

I don't think so. I told you how negotiations went, If you want to put your own spin on then, be my guest. Business is business.


Yes I know how negotiations came, we already got the results out of them. Fortunately Avianca was the first to take advantage out of them, that's the way it should be.


With all due respect, how old are you? Because if that is the best answer an adult can come up with... Jeez.


The age that your statement "business is business" answer needs. You get the answers from what you ask and how you ask. But at least I don't need to ask your age in a public forum, I already got the answer.

Aeropostale wrote:
There is nothing “unfair” about it. These agreements seek to offer equal or at least similar conditions for companies from both countries to compete against each other. Evidently Colombia wants these additional frequencies not only to carry more passengers between both countries, but also beyond Colombia to third countries. At least that’s the main goal of Avianca, the only Colombian carrier currently flying to Argentina.

It is therefore understandable (and fair) that Argentina seeks for its carriers the possibility to pick up passengers in Colombia and fly them from there to third countries just as Colombian carriers get the possibility to carry passengers from Argentina via Colombia to third countries. Luckily for Colombia, the current Argentine government is much more eager to increase capacity to Argentina than to safeguard conditions for its own carriers to compete internationally.

In any case Colombia’s year-long reluctance to negotiate fifth freedom rights for Argentine carriers just shows that they haven’t been any more interested than Argentina in promoting competition between both countries.


You have a really good statement here. Thanks for your time to give a good explanation.

I will still consider unfair to see a not national airline, in this case could be AR for example, be flying lets say from EZE-BOG and then BOG-MIA, selling and carrying Colombian passengers in the BOG-MIA leg, that will be making money from Colombians and taking out Colombias economy to make profitable an Argentinian airline.

We got the best example recently in a huge debate between Emirates, Aeromexico and the Mexican authorities. Why should Emirates will be selling tickets between Mexico and Barcelona, that's something that corresponds to the Mexican airlines. If the flight came to be directly to Dubai, I will completely understand and then Emirates is in all their right to operate the flight and sell what ever they want. But that was not the case.

I know Avianca takes Argentinian passengers from EZE to BOG and probably from BOG to JFK, MIA, BOS, FLL, etc... That's how their hub works, lucky them they had an airline in such a good geographical location to be able to do that, but they still carry more Colombian passengers, they still have the majority of Colombian work force and they are still a Colombian airline, they need to be protected by the Colombian authority such as Mexico did with Aeromexico.

And the best way to look at it is comparing it with the flights from BOG to SCL, why does Avianca has 3 daily flights between Bogota and Santiago, and Latam has also 2 daily flights between Santiago and Bogota? Yes I know, Latam has an airline in Colombia and they can feed their flights, but still before Latam was the owner of Aires in Colombia, Avianca didn't had any restriction to fly to Santiago. Colombia and Chile have had for several years fifth freedom agreements, but only 3x a week, that Latam used to operate, but now they don't.

Finally the negotiation came and we got the result we got. I still don't think is fair, and that is why from my point of view, I hope that Avianca takes the most advantage out of it.
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
mig21uti
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:30 pm

This is very simple. When negotiating a bilateral agreement, the advantages and disadvantages of the two parties are taken into consideration. Geography is an advantage or disadvantage. From there it seeks to compensate or not those advantages and disadvantages. The 5th freedom is a way to compensate for these disadvantages. Any Argentine company in its flights to Colombia only transports passengers between 2 points, any Colombian company for its geographical advantage can use this advantage to transport passengers beyond generating an economic benefit that can not generate Argentine companies. That is why, with the 5th freedom, we try to equate this disadvantage.


If you do not seek to compensate for these disadvantages you are negotiating an agreement that only benefits the companies of a country, and does not generate any benefit to the other party.
If there is no compensation for Argentine companies, you only generate unfair competition that uses its geographical advantages vs. your geographical disadvantages.


an example outside of aviation is when 2 countries do business, and one country has a low cost of manufacturing and the other country compensates with rates so as not to destroy its own industry.
 
pipeafcr
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:30 pm

mig21uti wrote:
This is very simple. When negotiating a bilateral agreement, the advantages and disadvantages of the two parties are taken into consideration. Geography is an advantage or disadvantage. From there it seeks to compensate or not those advantages and disadvantages. The 5th freedom is a way to compensate for these disadvantages. Any Argentine company in its flights to Colombia only transports passengers between 2 points, any Colombian company for its geographical advantage can use this advantage to transport passengers beyond generating an economic benefit that can not generate Argentine companies. That is why, with the 5th freedom, we try to equate this disadvantage.


If you do not seek to compensate for these disadvantages you are negotiating an agreement that only benefits the companies of a country, and does not generate any benefit to the other party.
If there is no compensation for Argentine companies, you only generate unfair competition that uses its geographical advantages vs. your geographical disadvantages.


an example outside of aviation is when 2 countries do business, and one country has a low cost of manufacturing and the other country compensates with rates so as not to destroy its own industry.


From an economist perspective, this statement cannot be any more erroneous for the world’s economy. Simply AV has the advantage of geography and they exploit it, therefore BOG has specialized in the connections market (BTW AV now let’s you pick the option of spending 48 hrs in Bogota before catching your next connection flight), something that EZE can’t as it’s way out of way for most LatAm cities. Economics is anything but “fair” (due to its open market ideals) and it would be best for Argentinian carriers to find their markets and focus in offering a quality service instead.
Felipe Carrillo
 
mig21uti
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:20 pm

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:15 pm

The bilateral agreements are not only based on the mathematics but have to take into account the scope of them. And the geographical location is a component to take into account for the companies of your country. In this case a quite good agreement was reached, contemplating the Argentine companies.
 
Aeropostale
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:49 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:15 am

LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:

Yes I know how negotiations came, we already got the results out of them. Fortunately Avianca was the first to take advantage out of them, that's the way it should be.


With all due respect, how old are you? Because if that is the best answer an adult can come up with... Jeez.


The age that your statement "business is business" answer needs. You get the answers from what you ask and how you ask. But at least I don't need to ask your age in a public forum, I already got the answer.

Aeropostale wrote:
There is nothing “unfair” about it. These agreements seek to offer equal or at least similar conditions for companies from both countries to compete against each other. Evidently Colombia wants these additional frequencies not only to carry more passengers between both countries, but also beyond Colombia to third countries. At least that’s the main goal of Avianca, the only Colombian carrier currently flying to Argentina.

It is therefore understandable (and fair) that Argentina seeks for its carriers the possibility to pick up passengers in Colombia and fly them from there to third countries just as Colombian carriers get the possibility to carry passengers from Argentina via Colombia to third countries. Luckily for Colombia, the current Argentine government is much more eager to increase capacity to Argentina than to safeguard conditions for its own carriers to compete internationally.

In any case Colombia’s year-long reluctance to negotiate fifth freedom rights for Argentine carriers just shows that they haven’t been any more interested than Argentina in promoting competition between both countries.


You have a really good statement here. Thanks for your time to give a good explanation.

I will still consider unfair to see a not national airline, in this case could be AR for example, be flying lets say from EZE-BOG and then BOG-MIA, selling and carrying Colombian passengers in the BOG-MIA leg, that will be making money from Colombians and taking out Colombias economy to make profitable an Argentinian airline.

We got the best example recently in a huge debate between Emirates, Aeromexico and the Mexican authorities. Why should Emirates will be selling tickets between Mexico and Barcelona, that's something that corresponds to the Mexican airlines. If the flight came to be directly to Dubai, I will completely understand and then Emirates is in all their right to operate the flight and sell what ever they want. But that was not the case.

I know Avianca takes Argentinian passengers from EZE to BOG and probably from BOG to JFK, MIA, BOS, FLL, etc... That's how their hub works, lucky them they had an airline in such a good geographical location to be able to do that, but they still carry more Colombian passengers, they still have the majority of Colombian work force and they are still a Colombian airline, they need to be protected by the Colombian authority such as Mexico did with Aeromexico.

And the best way to look at it is comparing it with the flights from BOG to SCL, why does Avianca has 3 daily flights between Bogota and Santiago, and Latam has also 2 daily flights between Santiago and Bogota? Yes I know, Latam has an airline in Colombia and they can feed their flights, but still before Latam was the owner of Aires in Colombia, Avianca didn't had any restriction to fly to Santiago. Colombia and Chile have had for several years fifth freedom agreements, but only 3x a week, that Latam used to operate, but now they don't.

Finally the negotiation came and we got the result we got. I still don't think is fair, and that is why from my point of view, I hope that Avianca takes the most advantage out of it.


Sorry, you fail to explain how Aerolineas taking a Colombian (i.e. fifth freedom) passenger from Bogotá to Miami would be any more “unfair” than Avianca taking an Argentine (i.e. connecting) passenger on the same route.

Your LAN Chile example actually proves my point rather than yours: the former bilateral was not what made the route profitable and competitive for LAN; buying a Colombian airline to feed it (and therefore circumvent the agreement) was.

In any case, had Colombia really had a sincere interest in promoting competition, they would have never had a problem granting Argentine carriers fifth freedom (just as Argentina was always willing to grant the same to Colombian carriers in return).

pipeafcr wrote:
mig21uti wrote:
This is very simple. When negotiating a bilateral agreement, the advantages and disadvantages of the two parties are taken into consideration. Geography is an advantage or disadvantage. From there it seeks to compensate or not those advantages and disadvantages. The 5th freedom is a way to compensate for these disadvantages. Any Argentine company in its flights to Colombia only transports passengers between 2 points, any Colombian company for its geographical advantage can use this advantage to transport passengers beyond generating an economic benefit that can not generate Argentine companies. That is why, with the 5th freedom, we try to equate this disadvantage.


If you do not seek to compensate for these disadvantages you are negotiating an agreement that only benefits the companies of a country, and does not generate any benefit to the other party.
If there is no compensation for Argentine companies, you only generate unfair competition that uses its geographical advantages vs. your geographical disadvantages.


an example outside of aviation is when 2 countries do business, and one country has a low cost of manufacturing and the other country compensates with rates so as not to destroy its own industry.


From an economist perspective, this statement cannot be any more erroneous for the world’s economy. Simply AV has the advantage of geography and they exploit it, therefore BOG has specialized in the connections market (BTW AV now let’s you pick the option of spending 48 hrs in Bogota before catching your next connection flight), something that EZE can’t as it’s way out of way for most LatAm cities. Economics is anything but “fair” (due to its open market ideals) and it would be best for Argentinian carriers to find their markets and focus in offering a quality service instead.


You do know that the world economy is not based on a principle of free global trade at any cost to any country, but rather one based on mostly bilateral and regional trade agreements which -in one way or the other- seek to offer equal benefits to all parties to them?
 
OGLOBAL
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:43 am

Aeropostale wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:

With all due respect, how old are you? Because if that is the best answer an adult can come up with... Jeez.


The age that your statement "business is business" answer needs. You get the answers from what you ask and how you ask. But at least I don't need to ask your age in a public forum, I already got the answer.

Aeropostale wrote:
There is nothing “unfair” about it. These agreements seek to offer equal or at least similar conditions for companies from both countries to compete against each other. Evidently Colombia wants these additional frequencies not only to carry more passengers between both countries, but also beyond Colombia to third countries. At least that’s the main goal of Avianca, the only Colombian carrier currently flying to Argentina.

It is therefore understandable (and fair) that Argentina seeks for its carriers the possibility to pick up passengers in Colombia and fly them from there to third countries just as Colombian carriers get the possibility to carry passengers from Argentina via Colombia to third countries. Luckily for Colombia, the current Argentine government is much more eager to increase capacity to Argentina than to safeguard conditions for its own carriers to compete internationally.

In any case Colombia’s year-long reluctance to negotiate fifth freedom rights for Argentine carriers just shows that they haven’t been any more interested than Argentina in promoting competition between both countries.


You have a really good statement here. Thanks for your time to give a good explanation.

I will still consider unfair to see a not national airline, in this case could be AR for example, be flying lets say from EZE-BOG and then BOG-MIA, selling and carrying Colombian passengers in the BOG-MIA leg, that will be making money from Colombians and taking out Colombias economy to make profitable an Argentinian airline.

We got the best example recently in a huge debate between Emirates, Aeromexico and the Mexican authorities. Why should Emirates will be selling tickets between Mexico and Barcelona, that's something that corresponds to the Mexican airlines. If the flight came to be directly to Dubai, I will completely understand and then Emirates is in all their right to operate the flight and sell what ever they want. But that was not the case.

I know Avianca takes Argentinian passengers from EZE to BOG and probably from BOG to JFK, MIA, BOS, FLL, etc... That's how their hub works, lucky them they had an airline in such a good geographical location to be able to do that, but they still carry more Colombian passengers, they still have the majority of Colombian work force and they are still a Colombian airline, they need to be protected by the Colombian authority such as Mexico did with Aeromexico.

And the best way to look at it is comparing it with the flights from BOG to SCL, why does Avianca has 3 daily flights between Bogota and Santiago, and Latam has also 2 daily flights between Santiago and Bogota? Yes I know, Latam has an airline in Colombia and they can feed their flights, but still before Latam was the owner of Aires in Colombia, Avianca didn't had any restriction to fly to Santiago. Colombia and Chile have had for several years fifth freedom agreements, but only 3x a week, that Latam used to operate, but now they don't.

Finally the negotiation came and we got the result we got. I still don't think is fair, and that is why from my point of view, I hope that Avianca takes the most advantage out of it.


Sorry, you fail to explain how Aerolineas taking a Colombian (i.e. fifth freedom) passenger from Bogotá to Miami would be any more “unfair” than Avianca taking an Argentine (i.e. connecting) passenger on the same route.

Your LAN Chile example actually proves my point rather than yours: the former bilateral was not what made the route profitable and competitive for LAN; buying a Colombian airline to feed it (and therefore circumvent the agreement) was.

In any case, had Colombia really had a sincere interest in promoting competition, they would have never had a problem granting Argentine carriers fifth freedom (just as Argentina was always willing to grant the same to Colombian carriers in return).

pipeafcr wrote:
mig21uti wrote:
This is very simple. When negotiating a bilateral agreement, the advantages and disadvantages of the two parties are taken into consideration. Geography is an advantage or disadvantage. From there it seeks to compensate or not those advantages and disadvantages. The 5th freedom is a way to compensate for these disadvantages. Any Argentine company in its flights to Colombia only transports passengers between 2 points, any Colombian company for its geographical advantage can use this advantage to transport passengers beyond generating an economic benefit that can not generate Argentine companies. That is why, with the 5th freedom, we try to equate this disadvantage.


If you do not seek to compensate for these disadvantages you are negotiating an agreement that only benefits the companies of a country, and does not generate any benefit to the other party.
If there is no compensation for Argentine companies, you only generate unfair competition that uses its geographical advantages vs. your geographical disadvantages.


an example outside of aviation is when 2 countries do business, and one country has a low cost of manufacturing and the other country compensates with rates so as not to destroy its own industry.


From an economist perspective, this statement cannot be any more erroneous for the world’s economy. Simply AV has the advantage of geography and they exploit it, therefore BOG has specialized in the connections market (BTW AV now let’s you pick the option of spending 48 hrs in Bogota before catching your next connection flight), something that EZE can’t as it’s way out of way for most LatAm cities. Economics is anything but “fair” (due to its open market ideals) and it would be best for Argentinian carriers to find their markets and focus in offering a quality service instead.


You do know that the world economy is not based on a principle of free global trade at any cost to any country, but rather one based on mostly bilateral and regional trade agreements which -in one way or the other- seek to offer equal benefits to all parties to them?



If that's the case why do they grant Panama and Copa so many frequencies i mean Panama also has a good geographical position . i think it's unfair that the bilateral with Colombia is very strict while with Panama it's very open
 
Aeropostale
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:49 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:19 am

OGLOBAL wrote:
If that's the case why do they grant Panama and Copa so many frequencies i mean Panama also has a good geographical position . i think it's unfair that the bilateral with Colombia is very strict while with Panama it's very open


Absolutely. Regarding Air Services Agreements, I can’t think of anything more questionable than what the former government “negotiated” with Panama. It’s the best example of what shouldn’t be done. While some may point out that it allowed places like Rosario and Córdoba to get new international connections, the price paid is just to high.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2074
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:15 pm

this is really great. More options to EZE. Maybe i will try them out.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2507
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:26 pm

OGLOBAL wrote:
If that's the case why do they grant Panama and Copa so many frequencies i mean Panama also has a good geographical position . i think it's unfair that the bilateral with Colombia is very strict while with Panama it's very open


Actually that's quite the opposite. It's still very restrictive. The bilateral was recently re-negotiated and was strengthened for both countries, both having equal opportunities in either countries. Argentina used to base it's foreign policy on reciprocity which is exactly why the bilateral agreement with Colombia stands where it is. Clearly AV is pulling the strings on the Colombian negotiating side as it is the one who would be really affected if any foreign carrier is allowed to fly flights from Colombia to anywhere else with 5th freedom rights.

That said, Panama has granted 5th freedom rights to Argentine carriers that may wish to fly there and continue onwards to another destination. Finally, as no argentine carrier has expressed interest in flying to Panama, Copa Airlines is allowed to use the frequencies for both flags.

Kudos to AV on the new service. I do wish that the Airbus A330 is swapped soon again for the 787.

Saludos.
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
LatinAirliner
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:43 am

Aeropostale wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
dcajet wrote:

With all due respect, how old are you? Because if that is the best answer an adult can come up with... Jeez.


The age that your statement "business is business" answer needs. You get the answers from what you ask and how you ask. But at least I don't need to ask your age in a public forum, I already got the answer.

Aeropostale wrote:
There is nothing “unfair” about it. These agreements seek to offer equal or at least similar conditions for companies from both countries to compete against each other. Evidently Colombia wants these additional frequencies not only to carry more passengers between both countries, but also beyond Colombia to third countries. At least that’s the main goal of Avianca, the only Colombian carrier currently flying to Argentina.

It is therefore understandable (and fair) that Argentina seeks for its carriers the possibility to pick up passengers in Colombia and fly them from there to third countries just as Colombian carriers get the possibility to carry passengers from Argentina via Colombia to third countries. Luckily for Colombia, the current Argentine government is much more eager to increase capacity to Argentina than to safeguard conditions for its own carriers to compete internationally.

In any case Colombia’s year-long reluctance to negotiate fifth freedom rights for Argentine carriers just shows that they haven’t been any more interested than Argentina in promoting competition between both countries.


You have a really good statement here. Thanks for your time to give a good explanation.

I will still consider unfair to see a not national airline, in this case could be AR for example, be flying lets say from EZE-BOG and then BOG-MIA, selling and carrying Colombian passengers in the BOG-MIA leg, that will be making money from Colombians and taking out Colombias economy to make profitable an Argentinian airline.

We got the best example recently in a huge debate between Emirates, Aeromexico and the Mexican authorities. Why should Emirates will be selling tickets between Mexico and Barcelona, that's something that corresponds to the Mexican airlines. If the flight came to be directly to Dubai, I will completely understand and then Emirates is in all their right to operate the flight and sell what ever they want. But that was not the case.

I know Avianca takes Argentinian passengers from EZE to BOG and probably from BOG to JFK, MIA, BOS, FLL, etc... That's how their hub works, lucky them they had an airline in such a good geographical location to be able to do that, but they still carry more Colombian passengers, they still have the majority of Colombian work force and they are still a Colombian airline, they need to be protected by the Colombian authority such as Mexico did with Aeromexico.

And the best way to look at it is comparing it with the flights from BOG to SCL, why does Avianca has 3 daily flights between Bogota and Santiago, and Latam has also 2 daily flights between Santiago and Bogota? Yes I know, Latam has an airline in Colombia and they can feed their flights, but still before Latam was the owner of Aires in Colombia, Avianca didn't had any restriction to fly to Santiago. Colombia and Chile have had for several years fifth freedom agreements, but only 3x a week, that Latam used to operate, but now they don't.

Finally the negotiation came and we got the result we got. I still don't think is fair, and that is why from my point of view, I hope that Avianca takes the most advantage out of it.


Sorry, you fail to explain how Aerolineas taking a Colombian (i.e. fifth freedom) passenger from Bogotá to Miami would be any more “unfair” than Avianca taking an Argentine (i.e. connecting) passenger on the same route.

Your LAN Chile example actually proves my point rather than yours: the former bilateral was not what made the route profitable and competitive for LAN; buying a Colombian airline to feed it (and therefore circumvent the agreement) was.

In any case, had Colombia really had a sincere interest in promoting competition, they would have never had a problem granting Argentine carriers fifth freedom (just as Argentina was always willing to grant the same to Colombian carriers in return).

pipeafcr wrote:
mig21uti wrote:
This is very simple. When negotiating a bilateral agreement, the advantages and disadvantages of the two parties are taken into consideration. Geography is an advantage or disadvantage. From there it seeks to compensate or not those advantages and disadvantages. The 5th freedom is a way to compensate for these disadvantages. Any Argentine company in its flights to Colombia only transports passengers between 2 points, any Colombian company for its geographical advantage can use this advantage to transport passengers beyond generating an economic benefit that can not generate Argentine companies. That is why, with the 5th freedom, we try to equate this disadvantage.


If you do not seek to compensate for these disadvantages you are negotiating an agreement that only benefits the companies of a country, and does not generate any benefit to the other party.
If there is no compensation for Argentine companies, you only generate unfair competition that uses its geographical advantages vs. your geographical disadvantages.


an example outside of aviation is when 2 countries do business, and one country has a low cost of manufacturing and the other country compensates with rates so as not to destroy its own industry.


From an economist perspective, this statement cannot be any more erroneous for the world’s economy. Simply AV has the advantage of geography and they exploit it, therefore BOG has specialized in the connections market (BTW AV now let’s you pick the option of spending 48 hrs in Bogota before catching your next connection flight), something that EZE can’t as it’s way out of way for most LatAm cities. Economics is anything but “fair” (due to its open market ideals) and it would be best for Argentinian carriers to find their markets and focus in offering a quality service instead.


You do know that the world economy is not based on a principle of free global trade at any cost to any country, but rather one based on mostly bilateral and regional trade agreements which -in one way or the other- seek to offer equal benefits to all parties to them?


Unfortunately I am not failing to explain, you just don't want to understand. So I will use another example for you to understand. I saw the AeroMexico example didn't work at all, and as I can read, you are probably from Argentina or you are very familiar to the Argentinian airline industry, so I will invent one.

Buenos Aires for example is in a very good geographical location for travelers who maybe want to travel from Santiago to Sao Paulo and want to have more than one option, probably to seek for better fares, or lets say they want to stay one day in Buenos Aires. Aerolineas can perfectly offer the possibility for travelers to connect in Buenos Aires, in a short period of time, with a very good connection service and offer a lower fare than Latam in a direct flight, and for sure with a not so different elapse time. Not saying that is always going to be a lower fare, but depends in demand and supply and all that revenue management stuff. Now, imagine Sky Airlines in Chile, offering a flight SCL-EZE-GRU, with a quick turn around in EZE and selling EZE-GRU, travelling Argentinian passengers in EZE-GRU and affecting Aerolineas load factor/revenue/profitability in the EZE-GRU market.

Sometimes geographical locations, not only locations, but geographical "situations" play a huge role in here. Although Bogota is really well located, it has bad things too, being at 8360ft is a bad card to play with, but Avianca and the other airlines deal with it. Avianca has a lot of weight and balance situations when departing Bogota. Most of their 5-hrs (+) flights have passengers restrictions when using narrow body airplanes, the A320ceo for example, is not able to make it to EZE from BOG without blocking a bunch of seats, and their competitor (Copa), is able to make 7hrs flights in a 737, with for sure no passengers restrictions or very little. But Avianca is not crying because of it, they compete in another way, and in that case they can make use of their wide body airplanes. That is a geographical "situation".

When Avianca is flying BOG-MIA or BOG-EZE, they are flying "localy", they are departing from their home country, where they pay taxes as local airline and they are selling most of the seats to Colombian passengers. If they adapt their flight schedules to be able to take off the airplane that is flying to MIA, just and hour after the airplane that landed from EZE, good for them, probably they need more than one airplane, probably their fleet cost is high, but they do it that way, we don't care. Such as Aerolineas sells the option to travel between Santiago and Sao Paulo, stooping in Buenos Aires, and is someone in Chile telling us that is not fair?. So if Avianca (or any Colombian airline) sells a ticket to a passenger with a connection in Bogota, is still their business. Argentina can perfectly block Avianca's selling of tickets in Argentina, they don't do it because they want Argentinians to have different travel options, and passengers can still decide to fly direct between Buenos Aires and Miami with Aerolineas, that is perfectly fine, Avianca cannot do anything if Aerolineas decide to charge $1usd between Buenos Aires and Miami, probably Avianca's OD EZE-MIA will fall, but there is nothing Avianca (or any Colombian airline) can do.

Take a loot at this PDF (http://clacsec.lima.icao.int/Reuniones/ ... es/005.pdf). Before Chile and Colombia negotiate a fifth freedom agreement, that only came to be 3 flights a week and was a complete different agreement. Chile and Colombia had negotiate an agreement of open skies, and Chile didn't refuse to have it. Only the demand between both countries was already high, they needed several daily flights between Bogota and Santiago, they didn't care if Avianca's strategy was going to sell beyond Colombia to northern destinations, they are fine to have the possibility of having several daily flights. Brazil and Colombia use to have also restrictions, but they still didn't limit to only 4 flights a week, they permitted 21freqs a week.

The demand between Buenos Aires and Bogota I will say is even higher, is a huge OD, and I am not talking about any connections in Bogota, I am talking about the point-to-point demand. So why Argentina refused to permit more flights a week, just because Colombia didn't allows them to have fifth freedom. I still think is out of sense and completely unfair to Colombia to have to sign fifth freedom there. I don't see the Bolivian government restricting Avianca of flying to La Paz, and soon to Santa Cruz, and BoA has flights between Santa Cruz and Miami, and they probably don't like having Avianca in the VVI-BOG flight, but they will deal with it, and will know how to compete.

Why is that Avianca had to open two daily flights between Lima and Buenos Aires? Because the last option they had to be able to serve Buenos Aires was from Lima, and Lima has flights to the northern hemisphere, and why their isn't a frequency restriction then between Argentina and Peru?
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
pipeafcr
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Avianca increases Bogota – Buenos Aires service from March 2019

Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:41 am

It seems like there's a lot of Kirchnerista protectionist rationale into the lessons on "fairness". There's a big difference between an airline using 5th freedoms, and another which just uses its 3rd and 4th freedoms to connect passengers in its home country.
Felipe Carrillo

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