Northwest1988
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A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:32 pm

Hello all,

I’m curious about two things. Forgive me if these have been discussed in other forums.

1. Deltas A350 fleet will surpass the size of the 777 fleet before too long. I occasionally see the 777 on the ATL-LAX route. Not sure if there are any other domestic 777 routes for DL, but I wonder, Does DL currently or have plans in the future to fly the A350 on any popular domestic routes such as ATL-LAX? Are there any other routes domestically that they may use the 350 on?

2. The A220 (C-Series) is on the way. According to Wikipedia (I know not the most reliable source) older 717s will be phased out for the A220. Is this accurate? Delta has not flown the 717 for that long in the big picture. Historically DL flies planes for as long as possible and the oldest 717s are only just hitting the 20 year mark. Seems retirement would be at least a few years off still. Will the 717 be consolidated to just a few hubs or could this be the beginning of the entire McDonnell Douglas family phase out?

Thank you all!
 
johns624
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:49 pm

The ATL-LAX is a repositioning flight. The 777 needs to get to LAX, so why not sell tickets?
 
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FA9295
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:56 pm

1. The 777 is on ATL-LAX as an aircraft repositioning flight for LAX-SYD. Once the A359 begins to settle into the overall Delta fleet, I think we'll see them more on intra-U.S. routes on a regular. Every once in awhile I do see it on ATL-DTW as revenue aircraft repositioning flights.

2. Although Delta has not had the 717 for too long, the planes are still aging rather quickly. These planes came from Air Tran, which Southwest Airlines sold to Delta when they bought Air Tran. I too have heard that the A220 will be a direct 717 replacement on this sote, but I'm not exactly sure how reliable that source of information is. Yes, Delta does like to fly their planes for as long as possible, hence why they gave up their Boeing 787 orders to keep on flying their 767s instrad, so its highey possible that the A220 will just be a supplement to the route network alongside the 717s.
No, "FA" in my username does not stand for "flight attendant"...
 
Dfthu
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:07 pm

Regarding the 717s, Delta loves them. They most likely won’t be retired for a while. I think the A220 is going to replace RJ flying. Bigger plane but will reduce frequencies.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:07 pm

I would think the C-Series/A220 would be a better A319 replacement. I've had two airline employees who worked in fleet management tell me that the operating costs between the A320 and A319 were very similar and that it was almost always better to utilize the A320. Why did the airlines order so many of the smaller A319 back then? We know the A319neo is a dog due to incredibly poor sales. I guess airline management has gotten a lot smarter with fleet decisions.
 
global1
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:13 pm

Delta did not buy the 717's from Southwest.
They are leased from Boeing (and at very favorable rates). They can phase them out as leases expire if they choose to do so.
Last edited by global1 on Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:14 pm

1) The domestic 777 flights are primarily for positioning and fleet rotation purposes. If the need to do so arises for A350s they would do the same. They don't need to yet since the domestic gateways TPAC destinations all bridge back to DTW. The 777 destinations don't all bridge back to ATL without some domestic sections.

2) Nothing official, other than someone taking liberty to edit wikipedia. Unofficially the writing is on the wall that eventually this fleet type will replace much of this flying, but right now its the MD88s and MD90 fleets coming down. 717s aren't going anywhere in the near-term, especially as DL still continues to pull down 50 seat flying and backfill with 2-class RJs, which are being backfilled by 717 flying.
 
michman
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:37 pm

global1 wrote:
Delta did not buy the 717's from Southwest.
They are leased from Boeing (and at very favorable rates). They can phase them out as leases expire if they choose to do so.


It's a combination of subleases and leases from WN. 8 of the 717's were owned by WN and are leased to DL on a 7 year term with an option to purchase. The remainder are subleases with remaining lease terms ranging from 6 to 12 years (from 2012 deal). This info is from WN SEC filings.
 
MO11
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:01 pm

michman wrote:
global1 wrote:
Delta did not buy the 717's from Southwest.
They are leased from Boeing (and at very favorable rates). They can phase them out as leases expire if they choose to do so.


It's a combination of subleases and leases from WN. 8 of the 717's were owned by WN and are leased to DL on a 7 year term with an option to purchase. The remainder are subleases with remaining lease terms ranging from 6 to 12 years (from 2012 deal). This info is from WN SEC filings.


And three of the Southwest leases recently expired, so those are now leased from Boeing Capital.
 
burnsie28
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:02 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
Hello all,

I’m curious about two things. Forgive me if these have been discussed in other forums.

1. Deltas A350 fleet will surpass the size of the 777 fleet before too long. I occasionally see the 777 on the ATL-LAX route. Not sure if there are any other domestic 777 routes for DL, but I wonder, Does DL currently or have plans in the future to fly the A350 on any popular domestic routes such as ATL-LAX? Are there any other routes domestically that they may use the 350 on?

2. The A220 (C-Series) is on the way. According to Wikipedia (I know not the most reliable source) older 717s will be phased out for the A220. Is this accurate? Delta has not flown the 717 for that long in the big picture. Historically DL flies planes for as long as possible and the oldest 717s are only just hitting the 20 year mark. Seems retirement would be at least a few years off still. Will the 717 be consolidated to just a few hubs or could this be the beginning of the entire McDonnell Douglas family phase out?

Thank you all!


1. Delta deferred 10 of the 25 A350's. So the A350 fleet will not be larger than the 777 fleet. It will actually be 3 smaller.

2. There was a news article that talked that DL had to fly the 88 longer awaiting A220 deliveries, same article mentioned that they would be replacing RJ flying. So those larger RJ's could be freed up to some of the 50 seat markets.
 
drdisque
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:32 pm

The A220's are going to backfill capacity to allow for accelerated MD-90 retirements due to impending parts shortages.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:42 pm

It has been stated multiple times that many of the A220s will be used to upgauge from 76 RJs.
 
Redwood839
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:07 pm

Was on that 77L flight yesterday from ATL-LAX in J. Wonderful experience.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:18 pm

burnsie28 wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
Hello all,

I’m curious about two things. Forgive me if these have been discussed in other forums.

1. Deltas A350 fleet will surpass the size of the 777 fleet before too long. I occasionally see the 777 on the ATL-LAX route. Not sure if there are any other domestic 777 routes for DL, but I wonder, Does DL currently or have plans in the future to fly the A350 on any popular domestic routes such as ATL-LAX? Are there any other routes domestically that they may use the 350 on?

2. The A220 (C-Series) is on the way. According to Wikipedia (I know not the most reliable source) older 717s will be phased out for the A220. Is this accurate? Delta has not flown the 717 for that long in the big picture. Historically DL flies planes for as long as possible and the oldest 717s are only just hitting the 20 year mark. Seems retirement would be at least a few years off still. Will the 717 be consolidated to just a few hubs or could this be the beginning of the entire McDonnell Douglas family phase out?

Thank you all!


1. Delta deferred 10 of the 25 A350's. So the A350 fleet will not be larger than the 777 fleet. It will actually be 3 smaller.

2. There was a news article that talked that DL had to fly the 88 longer awaiting A220 deliveries, same article mentioned that they would be replacing RJ flying. So those larger RJ's could be freed up to some of the 50 seat markets.


So will two 220 replace one 88 or will seat be reduced on those replacements. Do you see any new markets being added with 220?
 
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compensateme
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:07 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
burnsie28 wrote:
Northwest1988 wrote:
Hello all,

I’m curious about two things. Forgive me if these have been discussed in other forums.

1. Deltas A350 fleet will surpass the size of the 777 fleet before too long. I occasionally see the 777 on the ATL-LAX route. Not sure if there are any other domestic 777 routes for DL, but I wonder, Does DL currently or have plans in the future to fly the A350 on any popular domestic routes such as ATL-LAX? Are there any other routes domestically that they may use the 350 on?

2. The A220 (C-Series) is on the way. According to Wikipedia (I know not the most reliable source) older 717s will be phased out for the A220. Is this accurate? Delta has not flown the 717 for that long in the big picture. Historically DL flies planes for as long as possible and the oldest 717s are only just hitting the 20 year mark. Seems retirement would be at least a few years off still. Will the 717 be consolidated to just a few hubs or could this be the beginning of the entire McDonnell Douglas family phase out?

Thank you all!


1. Delta deferred 10 of the 25 A350's. So the A350 fleet will not be larger than the 777 fleet. It will actually be 3 smaller.

2. There was a news article that talked that DL had to fly the 88 longer awaiting A220 deliveries, same article mentioned that they would be replacing RJ flying. So those larger RJ's could be freed up to some of the 50 seat markets.


So will two 220 replace one 88 or will seat be reduced on those replacements. Do you see any new markets being added with 220?


Aircraft aren’t replaced 1:1. Many routes operated by 320/M88/M90 at ATL have been replaced with 739/321 - sometimes in lower frequency, sometimes for growth. This then enables the M88 to be retired, and frees the 320 and M90 to replace M88 in markets that can’t support a capacity increase.

One can assume the 220 were part of the capacity mix to replace the M88, and slower than anticipated deliveries means some M88 will stick around a few months longer. Ultimately, DL has enough capacity scheduled for delivery within the next 4-5 years to replace all of the M88, M90 and 757 + account for 3% annual growth, so it isn’t likely the M88 will live on that much longer (and it’s probable more retirements will be announced soon).
I liked beer. I still like beer.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:38 pm

I bet the 717 retirements start as soon as it's the last t-tail in the fleet. No insider info just my guess. It will be too much of an oddball once the MD88/90 fleet is gone. The airframe support will really dry up at that point.
 
xdlx
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:36 pm

The issue is with the supply chain to keep them flying, it is my understanding only one MRO holds the line to OH the engines, and DL has the largest fleet of them, so they have maximized their utility and created the bridge to Mainline with 110-130 seaters. It may cost a lot for "D checks" so use them and replace them with A220 or CSeries like my northern friends like to call them!
 
mackdad
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:55 pm

Yeah the writing is on the wall for the MD-90’s Sending engines to the sole MRO in New Zealand isn’t good in keeping costs down. Delta is forced to write them a blank check since fighting with the MRO on price can cause them to close shop and would ground the MD90 fleet.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:09 pm

xdlx wrote:
The issue is with the supply chain to keep them flying, it is my understanding only one MRO holds the line to OH the engines, and DL has the largest fleet of them

Which aircraft is that "them" you're talking about? Cause if it's the B717, its engines (BR715) are currently being worked on at Delta TOC...
 
AAIRLINERS
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:20 pm

I find it amazing that there are only 18 777 in their fleet further broken down by 8 ERs and 10 LRs. No wonder the need for repositioning flights. I understand the need for equipment covering the South
Africa flying but even then it is probably hard to justify. I cant remember how and when the 200ER came about. MD11 replacement I guess. The A350 is really going to streamline the operation in the future
so the deferral seems a bit odd at this point.
 
WN732
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:27 pm

mackdad wrote:
Yeah the writing is on the wall for the MD-90’s Sending engines to the sole MRO in New Zealand isn’t good in keeping costs down. Delta is forced to write them a blank check since fighting with the MRO on price can cause them to close shop and would ground the MD90 fleet.


Do we know the retirement date for the MD90? I have yet to fly one and I'm on the hunt for a flight.
 
SteelChair
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:28 pm

MD88s are mostly being replaced by 321s.

A220 will mostly replace 76 seat RJs.

I say mostly because it isn't one for one as so many erroneously postulate.

Its mostly an upgauge across the board....bigger planes generating lower seat mile costs helping to defray higher employee costs from the raises of the last few years. I believe Delta employees (the ones not yet contracted out) are among the highest paid in the industry.
 
flyabr
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:47 pm

FA9295 wrote:
Yes, Delta does like to fly their planes for as long as possible, hence why they gave up their Boeing 787 orders to keep on flying their 767s instrad, so its highey possible that the A220 will just be a supplement to the route network alongside the 717s.


The 787 order was inherited from NW. Then later lost a campaign against the A339NEO/A359. Once the campaign decision was made, there was no reason to keep the several times deferred 787 order.
 
mackdad
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:04 am

787 canceled order is the reason delta bought 737-900ER. It was the only way Boeing let them off the hook.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:10 am

Yes, say goodbye to routes like IND-CDG, ATL-DUS, JFK-PSA, TPA-AMS, etc once the 767 is retired. The A330 is way too big for many of Delta's TATL flights. Have fun connecting at CDG and AMS to secondary cities.
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:14 am

compensateme wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
burnsie28 wrote:

1. Delta deferred 10 of the 25 A350's. So the A350 fleet will not be larger than the 777 fleet. It will actually be 3 smaller.

2. There was a news article that talked that DL had to fly the 88 longer awaiting A220 deliveries, same article mentioned that they would be replacing RJ flying. So those larger RJ's could be freed up to some of the 50 seat markets.


So will two 220 replace one 88 or will seat be reduced on those replacements. Do you see any new markets being added with 220?


Aircraft aren’t replaced 1:1. Many routes operated by 320/M88/M90 at ATL have been replaced with 739/321 - sometimes in lower frequency, sometimes for growth. This then enables the M88 to be retired, and frees the 320 and M90 to replace M88 in markets that can’t support a capacity increase.

One can assume the 220 were part of the capacity mix to replace the M88, and slower than anticipated deliveries means some M88 will stick around a few months longer. Ultimately, DL has enough capacity scheduled for delivery within the next 4-5 years to replace all of the M88, M90 and 757 + account for 3% annual growth, so it isn’t likely the M88 will live on that much longer (and it’s probable more retirements will be announced soon).


If the 220 which is 100 seats are replace MD88's. Isn't that a lot of seat capacity gone.
 
NW747-400
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:39 am

Atlwarrior wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:

So will two 220 replace one 88 or will seat be reduced on those replacements. Do you see any new markets being added with 220?


Aircraft aren’t replaced 1:1. Many routes operated by 320/M88/M90 at ATL have been replaced with 739/321 - sometimes in lower frequency, sometimes for growth. This then enables the M88 to be retired, and frees the 320 and M90 to replace M88 in markets that can’t support a capacity increase.

One can assume the 220 were part of the capacity mix to replace the M88, and slower than anticipated deliveries means some M88 will stick around a few months longer. Ultimately, DL has enough capacity scheduled for delivery within the next 4-5 years to replace all of the M88, M90 and 757 + account for 3% annual growth, so it isn’t likely the M88 will live on that much longer (and it’s probable more retirements will be announced soon).


If the 220 which is 100 seats are replace MD88's. Isn't that a lot of seat capacity gone.


Its not really a one for one replacement. Delta is growing ASM's by increasing gauge rather than block hours. MD88 routes will largely be flown by A321 / B739 deliveries, some will be up gauged to A320 / B738, and some will be down -gauged to B717 / A319 / A220 depending on demand. A220 deliveries will be used to up gauge large RJ routes and also open new markets, and large RJ's will backfill for retiring 50 seat RJ's. There are lots of puzzle pieces at play with the reshuffling of the fleet.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:44 am

The CSeries will mainly replace 76-seaters, CRJ700/900 and ERJ-170/175. These aircraft will in turn move to CRJ200 routes, effectively ending the 50-seat era at DL.
 
DL757NYC
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:48 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
I bet the 717 retirements start as soon as it's the last t-tail in the fleet. No insider info just my guess. It will be too much of an oddball once the MD88/90 fleet is gone. The airframe support will really dry up at that point.


90 planes is not an oddball. And Delta owns enough spares and can canabalize their own retired fleet for parts. Plus the avionics are from the MD-11 I believe those systems are still being maintained because Fed-Ex and UPS have almost 100 of them between them. Plus HA has a fleet. Those birds will fly for a long long time if not HA will be very happy to take them. There isn’t an aircraft in the world that can take high cycle short hops like a MD aircraft. They way they are joined together is for durability. When was the last time you heard of a DC-9 suffering a decompression due to fatigue in the fuselage. If I was HA I would look for the TWA MD-80 some of those are only 18 years old. What other options do they have island hopping
 
DL757NYC
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:52 am

[quote="mackdad"]Yeah the writing is on the wall for the MD-90’s Sending engines to the sole MRO in New Zealand isn’t good in keeping costs down. Delta is forced to write them a blank check since fighting with the MRO on price can cause them to close shop and would ground

If I was Delta I would lean on one of their other MRO and say help us with these engines please. And if they don’t look for another company. A huge airline like Delta has such a huge fleet there is a company who will help them out to earn business. How different can the V2500 be on the MD-90
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:58 am

Again as many of said, none of these are an exact 1:1 replacement of frames, let alone on a similar gauge aircraft.

As said, DL is increased average gauge size / seats per departure. At peak times/peak departure bank at ATL they can't necessarily add more frequency but instead can increase aircraft size. This means upgauging as much as possible from 738/A320/MD88/MD90 (~160 seaters) to 757/A321/B739 (~190 seaters) as much as feasible, and on the lower end upgauging from 717/A319 (120 seaters) to A320/738 (150 seaters) as much as possible. One of the biggest YOY changes at ATL is reduction in 2-class RJ flying via upgauges, and reduction in 120 seaters via upgauges.

The same can be said in other parts of the network where 76 seater 2-class RJs can be upgauged, and everything pushed on down the line.

Right now the only real firm, officially planned retirements are the following:
MD88s which are coming out of the fleet at a pretty good rate, and indications are they will be gone by late 2020.
MD90s which are coming out at a slower rate, but also a smaller fleet, and are likely to be gone around or shortly thereafter the MD88 fleet exist in the 2020/2021 timeframe.

717 nothing is firm, but wildly speculated, that they will start to go after the MD88/MD90, however DL is still doing overhauls, still acquing parts, and performs engine overhauls in-house.

That said, there are still a lot of other fleet types that start to come into play around that timeframe too including older A320s, some of the 757s, older CR7s, more CRJ-200s, even the 738 fleet too, along with the 717s. A lot is going to depend on the total cost for the next interval of overhauls plus operating costs, the broader economic picture, and beyond.

The thing that favors the 717 for a bit longer longevity is that DL has a boatload of short-stage length / high-volume routes that can be flown with high-cycle / low block hour / lower utilization flying out of ATL, DTW, MSP (like what the DC-9 and now MD-88 is doing) where there is a lot more ground time vs flying time with flight times under <1.5 hours. All the short-hops in the Southeast and Midwest for example.
Last edited by PSU.DTW.SCE on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyboy80
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:59 am

Has DL loaded any A220s into the schedule yet?
 
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compensateme
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:03 am

mackdad wrote:
787 canceled order is the reason delta bought 737-900ER. It was the only way Boeing let them off the hook.


No, the 787 does not meet the performance expectations guaranteed in NW’s contract, therefore DL was not bound to cancellation penalties + was entitled to compensation. DL applies its compensation toward its initial 739 order.
I liked beer. I still like beer.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:04 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
The CSeries will mainly replace 76-seaters, CRJ700/900 and ERJ-170/175. These aircraft will in turn move to CRJ200 routes, effectively ending the 50-seat era at DL.


Again, not true. Delta has only said that they plan on a 50% reduction in 50 seat flying from 2017 to 2022...
From my cold, dead hands
 
DL757NYC
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:09 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Again as many of said, none of these are an exact 1:1 replacement of frames, let alone on a similar gauge aircraft.

As said, DL is increased average gauge size / seats per departure. At peak times/peak departure bank at ATL they can't necessarily add more frequency but instead can increase aircraft size. This means upgauging as much as possible from 738/A320/MD88/MD90 (~160 seaters) to 757/A321/B739 (~190 seaters) as much as feasible, and on the lower end upgauging from 717/A319 (120 seaters) to A320/738 (150 seaters) as much as possible. One of the biggest YOY changes at ATL is reduction in 2-class RJ flying via upgauges, and reduction in 120 seaters via upgauges.

The same can be said in other parts of the network where 76 seater 2-class RJs can be upgauged, and everything pushed on down the line.

Right now the only real firm, officially planned retirements are the following:
MD88s which are coming out of the fleet at a pretty good rate, and indications are they will be gone by late 2020.
MD90s which are coming out at a slower rate, but also a smaller fleet, and are likely to be gone around or shortly thereafter the MD88 fleet exist in the 2020/2021 timeframe.

717 nothing is firm, but wildly speculated, that they will start to go after the MD88/MD90, however DL is still doing overhauls, still acquing parts, and performs engine overhauls in-house.

That said, there are still a lot of other fleet types that start to come into play around that timeframe too including older A320s, some of the 757s, older CR7s, more CRJ-200s, even the 738 fleet too, along with the 717s. A lot is going to depend on the total cost for the next interval of overhauls plus operating costs, the broader economic picture, and beyond.

The thing that favors the 717 for a bit longer longevity is that DL has a boatload of short-stage length / high-volume routes that can be flown with high-cycle / low block hour / lower utilization flying out of ATL, DTW, MSP (like what the DC-9 and now MD-88 is doing) where there is a lot more ground time vs flying time with flight times under <1.5 hours. All the short-hops in the Southeast and Midwest for example.



I found at least 4 companies that MRO THE v2500-D5 and one is in Connecticut. Why go all the way to New Zealand
 
e7plnr
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:16 am

NW747-400 wrote:
Atlwarrior wrote:
compensateme wrote:

Aircraft aren’t replaced 1:1. Many routes operated by 320/M88/M90 at ATL have been replaced with 739/321 - sometimes in lower frequency, sometimes for growth. This then enables the M88 to be retired, and frees the 320 and M90 to replace M88 in markets that can’t support a capacity increase.

One can assume the 220 were part of the capacity mix to replace the M88, and slower than anticipated deliveries means some M88 will stick around a few months longer. Ultimately, DL has enough capacity scheduled for delivery within the next 4-5 years to replace all of the M88, M90 and 757 + account for 3% annual growth, so it isn’t likely the M88 will live on that much longer (and it’s probable more retirements will be announced soon).


If the 220 which is 100 seats are replace MD88's. Isn't that a lot of seat capacity gone.


Its not really a one for one replacement. Delta is growing ASM's by increasing gauge rather than block hours. MD88 routes will largely be flown by A321 / B739 deliveries, some will be up gauged to A320 / B738, and some will be down -gauged to B717 / A319 / A220 depending on demand. A220 deliveries will be used to up gauge large RJ routes and also open new markets, and large RJ's will backfill for retiring 50 seat RJ's. There are lots of puzzle pieces at play with the reshuffling of the fleet.


NW747-400 has the best response to the A220 question. Delta has never stated the A220-100 is replacing MD88 flying, only that it will be used to update large RJ routes. I expect Delta will also start some new routes with the A220 given its economic and passenger comfort advantages of competing operators.
 
lat41
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:20 am

I would be interested to know the typical routing used by the MD-90 back and forth to New Zealand for the overhaul. This engine version IAE V2500 is so peculiar that it's only overhauled in N Z?
Last edited by lat41 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
lat41
Posts: 577
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:20 am

I would be interested to know the typical routing used by the MD-90 back and forth to New Zealand for the overhaul. This engine version IAE V2500 is so peculiar that it's only overhauled in N Z?
Last edited by lat41 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:24 am

lat41 wrote:
I would be interested to know the typical routing used by the MD-90 back and forth to New Zealand for the overhaul. This engine version IAE V2500 is so peculiar that it's only overhauled in N Z?


The engines are shipped to NZ for the overhaul.
 
airtechy
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:26 am

lat41 wrote:
I would be interested to know the typical routing used by the MD-90 back and forth to New Zealand for the overhaul. This engine version IAE V2500 is so peculiar that it's only overhauled in N Z?


Engines are not welded onto airframes. They can be removed and shipped. ;)
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:28 am

There is a lot that’s been posted about the MD90 engine overhaul issues of late. They don’t fly the aircraft to NZ, they ship the engine there for overhaul.

DL is the lone operator of an low volume orphan fleet type. The MD90 V2500-D5 engine in the most simplistic manor is different than the A5 since it’s side-mount versus wing pylon mount, this there are differences in parts, fixtures, and procedures thus a completely different overhaul certification requirement.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:31 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes, say goodbye to routes like IND-CDG, ATL-DUS, JFK-PSA, TPA-AMS, etc once the 767 is retired. The A330 is way too big for many of Delta's TATL flights. Have fun connecting at CDG and AMS to secondary cities.


You are talking many years in the future my friend, lots could happen in that timeframe
DL DM, AA Gold 2018: AMS, ATL, AUS, BOS, BWI, CDG, CLT, CMN, DCA, DFW, DTW, DXB, EWR, FLL, FRA, HAV, HPN, JFK, JNB, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, LOS, MAD, MCO, MIA, MSP, ORD, PBI, PHL, PVD, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, STL, TPA, TXL, ZRH....Loading....
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:40 am

There are enough 76Ws that are likely to be around until late 2020s that it’s not worth discussing yet.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:01 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
I bet the 717 retirements start as soon as it's the last t-tail in the fleet. No insider info just my guess. It will be too much of an oddball once the MD88/90 fleet is gone. The airframe support will really dry up at that point.


90 planes is not an oddball.
And Delta owns enough spares and can canabalize their own retired fleet for parts. Plus the avionics are from the MD-11 I believe those systems are still being maintained because Fed-Ex and UPS have almost 100 of them between them. Plus HA has a fleet. Those birds will fly for a long long time if not HA will be very happy to take them. There isn’t an aircraft in the world that can take high cycle short hops like a MD aircraft. They way they are joined together is for durability. When was the last time you heard of a DC-9 suffering a decompression due to fatigue in the fuselage. If I was HA I would look for the TWA MD-80 some of those are only 18 years old. What other options do they have island hopping

90 planes when there are less than 150 world wide is an odd ball.

And the 717 does share some part with the MD11 but not enough that FX/5X will keep them in the air.

DL757NYC wrote:


I found at least 4 companies that MRO THE v2500-D5 and one is in Connecticut. Why go all the way to New Zealand

because there isn't a company in Connecticut that overhauls the D5. I'm assuming you are talking about ACMT, which overhauls parts of the D5.

Delta was sending the V2500s to MTU but MTU lost the last contract bid to Pratt in Christchurch. Once that happened MTU, AFAIK, stopped offering D5 overhauls and are focused on the more popular A models.

LHT was also offering D5 work (for a stupid high price from the rumor mill) and has also basically stopped offering D5 work.

Thus Pratt is the last option. They want out as well.

lat41 wrote:
I would be interested to know the typical routing used by the MD-90 back and forth to New Zealand for the overhaul. This engine version IAE V2500 is so peculiar that it's only overhauled in N Z?

Because that is where Pratt decided they want to do the work and they offered the best deal to Delta.

The problem isn't that Delta is sending the engines so far away, they do that will several other engine types. The issue is the costs are going up because the MRO market has no competition.

FWIW Delta sends its Trent 800s to Singapore for overhaul. Before bringing the CF6-80C2B8F work in house they went to TPE. The GE90s and CFM56-5As all go to Europe.
I can't remember for sure but I think the PW4168s also go to a shop in Asia.

DL757NYC wrote:
mackdad wrote:
Yeah the writing is on the wall for the MD-90’s Sending engines to the sole MRO in New Zealand isn’t good in keeping costs down. Delta is forced to write them a blank check since fighting with the MRO on price can cause them to close shop and would ground

If I was Delta I would lean on one of their other MRO and say help us with these engines please.
And if they don’t look for another company. A huge airline like Delta has such a huge fleet there is a company who will help them out to earn business. How different can the V2500 be on the MD-90

thats not how this world works.

MROs aren't going to add the tooling, parts, employees etc for a dying engine.
OEMs aren't going to give out MRO licenses for dying engines for an airline that has mostly supported the competition.

Economically it doesn't make sense. It certainly doesn't make sense when the demand for engine overhaul spots are in such high demand as they are now. Why would an MRO go after limited D5 work when they can use that space/employees/capital for new engines with thousands of orders like the LEAP, GTF and even CFM56-5B/7 and V2500-A5. Economically it doesn't make sense.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:04 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
The CSeries will mainly replace 76-seaters, CRJ700/900 and ERJ-170/175. These aircraft will in turn move to CRJ200 routes, effectively ending the 50-seat era at DL.


Again, not true. Delta has only said that they plan on a 50% reduction in 50 seat flying from 2017 to 2022...


But this was the original plan. However, a 50% reduction is significant because UA is gobbling up all of the CRJ200s Delta discarded and AA is reactivating up to 50 ERJ-140s.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:10 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I would think the C-Series/A220 would be a better A319 replacement. I've had two airline employees who worked in fleet management tell me that the operating costs between the A320 and A319 were very similar and that it was almost always better to utilize the A320. Why did the airlines order so many of the smaller A319 back then? We know the A319neo is a dog due to incredibly poor sales. I guess airline management has gotten a lot smarter with fleet decisions.


The A319s can go a bit longer. There are some old A320s that need to be replaced (some were sent to the breakers before the merger with NW). Ultimately, I expect that DL will go with the A220-300 to replace them.

Also, given that DL has deferred its A339s to take 251t versions, they would be 777-200ER replacements (no replacements for the 777-200LR though). I suspect that the A359 will eventually make its way to LAX, and the 77L would be only out of ATL (unless also is needed for JFK-BOM). Then a rotation might be one ATL-JFK trip as positioning. Also, keep in mind that. would be next up for replacement after the MD80/90 frames are gone...the newer A320s, the A319s, and 737-800s, and the 757-200s (199-seaters; the 168-seaters with Delta One don't have any available replacement yet).

michman wrote:
global1 wrote:
Delta did not buy the 717's from Southwest.
They are leased from Boeing (and at very favorable rates). They can phase them out as leases expire if they choose to do so.


It's a combination of subleases and leases from WN. 8 of the 717's were owned by WN and are leased to DL on a 7 year term with an option to purchase. The remainder are subleases with remaining lease terms ranging from 6 to 12 years (from 2012 deal). This info is from WN SEC filings.


An additional 5 are leased from Standard Chartered Bank (the ex-Blue1 frames). The ones with a -BD infix were originally ordered by J7 before the Flight 592 crash.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
peterj324
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:11 am

Don't forget Delta still has a lot of old A320s and A319s to retire. Many are approaching, or have reached 30 years old. The A220 will be able to replace at least the A319s 1:1 and can definitely help retire the A320s. My guess is that we will see a significant retirement of the older A320 series before the 717s start to go.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:44 am

The A319s are much younger than the A320s and in the same age/cycle range as the 738s (and near the same vintage as many of the 717s); the oldest being from 1999.

About 1/2 of the A320 fleet is more than 25 years old, the youngest 1/3 of the fleet is similar in age to the A319s (15-19 years old).
The downside of the A319 being its operating costs in proportion to the larger variants.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:51 am

I would guess by 2030 the fleet would look something like this:

A220
A320neo
A321/A321neo/A321LR
A322(?)
A330/A330neo
A350

The 739 might still be around as they are relatively young but then they might sell them off to standardize the fleet.
 
jplatts
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Re: A few Delta fleet questions.

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:51 am

peterj324 wrote:
Don't forget Delta still has a lot of old A320s and A319s to retire. Many are approaching, or have reached 30 years old. The A220 will be able to replace at least the A319s 1:1 and can definitely help retire the A320s. My guess is that we will see a significant retirement of the older A320 series before the 717s start to go.


While DL already does have A321ceo and A321neo planes on order, there are some DL routes currently operated on A320's that really need more capacity than the A319, A220, and 737-700 planes. DL will likely need to order either the A320neo or the 737 MAX 8 in order to replace the older A320's in its fleet.

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