Overthecascades
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Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:22 am

Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX and SLC. Or better location for domestic transfers than PHX. How come it never became one? I know National tried but 9/11 hit. And allegiant currently serves it as its base but I don’t know if it adopts a hub-and-spoke model.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:27 am

Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX and SLC. Or better location for domestic transfers than PHX. How come it never became one? I know National tried but 9/11 hit. And allegiant currently serves it as its base but I don’t know if it adopts a hub-and-spoke model.


WN has a pseudo hub in LAS, although you could argue it more resembles a large O&D station.

Keep in mind LAS isn't known as a primarily leisure destination, which is not attractive for UA, AA, or DL to place a hub.
Last edited by Midwestindy on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fraspotter
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:27 am

WN has one of their largest hubs in LAS. According to WN's June 2018 media page LAS had 217 daily departures from 24 gates to 56 cities non-stop. That's 3rd only behind MDW and BWI as far as number of departures. I would definitely consider them a US major. The others may not have much of a presence there because of regional hubs close by. AA has PHX, DL has SLC, UA has SFO and pretty much everybody has one at LAX.
Last edited by fraspotter on Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:28 am

Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF
 
thegov2k2
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:29 am

America West, before being acquired by US Airways, maintained a hub at LAS. Not sure where your info is coming from.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:31 am

Las Vegas is the low-cost carrier capital of the country. Allegiant, Spirit, Frontier and Southwest (if you want to call them a low-cost carrier) all have very large operations there. The US3 are already struggling enough in keeping up with these airlines by offering basic economy fares, so establishing a hub there would only be asking for more trouble.

Also, unless if you're counting AS as a "US major", PDX does not have this type of hub.
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TUSDawg23
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:39 am

Hi there,

To make a hub work, you need more than just a big metro area. In the case of LAS, it had trouble for many years attracting anything more than low-yield tourists who wanted to save their $ for the gambling and activities on the strip.

Now, LAS is becoming a more diversified economy I would argue and drives more higher-yielding business traffic than it has in years past. That being said, it is close to PHX which is AA territory, SLC which is DL territory, and relatively close to DEN which is UA territory so I don't think any of the big 3 would want to steer away traffic from one of those mountain region hubs just to make LAS work.

Remember that for a short period, US Airways had a focus city in LAS so the traditional carriers haven't completely ignored the potential of LAS as a hub.

LAS has some really intense competition right now going on between WN and the ULCCs and I don't know if it would be prudent for one of the big three to start a hub there. Out of the three mountain hubs I mentioned previously, PHX is probably the most vulnerable, but I think AA would be in for a bloodbath if they closed up shop at PHX in order to start a hub at LAS.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:42 am

To add to the WN comments... It seems like anytime I fly west and have to take a connection I almost always end up going through Vegas on WN. I usually want DEN but the LAS times are better or (more often) cheaper than Denver. So they push a lot of people through there.
Last edited by Jshank83 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:43 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF



I think you mean HP, America West and no, they were not based there
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:45 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF


SEA-SFO-NYC 3250 miles
SEA-LAS-NYC 3100 miles
SEA-PHX-NYC 3260 miles
SEA-SLC-NYC 2691 miles

LAX-SFO-NYC 2910 miles
LAX-LAS-NYC 2450 miles
LAX-PHX-NYC 2500 miles
LAX-SLC-NYC 2580 miles

SFO average 3080 miles
LAS average 2775 miles
PHX average 2880 miles
SLC average 2635 miles

SFO - UA hub
LAS - WN hub
PHX - AA hub
SLC - DL hub

Considering that SoCal has many more people and airports than the PNW, I'd say LAS is quite nicely positioned for a hub relative to it's nearby peers. Obviously there's DEN etc but I'm just keeping it simple to show that LAS isn't all that bad.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:09 am

Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX

......huh? :confused:

2017 Greater Portland MSA: 2,453,168
Portland CSA: 3,201,058

2017 Greater Las Vegas MSA: 2,204,079
Las Vegas CSA: 2,455,481
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
flyguy89
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:24 am

A couple things to consider:
- The catchment area for LAS is very decent, but at this point the O&D market is too fragmented for any one carrier to swoop in an build a successful hub without bleeding a lot of money to battle for market share.
- Las Vegas is a major tourist destination, which drives great volume, but not always the best yields. While the stereotype of Las Vegas being categorically low yield is a bit overplayed, the local economy beyond gaming and hospitality really isn't too spectacular...it's growing to be sure, but still isn't quite there to be substantial driver in decent-yielding local traffic.
 
GoSharks
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:27 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF


SEA-SFO-NYC 3250 miles
SEA-LAS-NYC 3100 miles
SEA-PHX-NYC 3260 miles
SEA-SLC-NYC 2691 miles

LAX-SFO-NYC 2910 miles
LAX-LAS-NYC 2450 miles
LAX-PHX-NYC 2500 miles
LAX-SLC-NYC 2580 miles

SFO average 3080 miles
LAS average 2775 miles
PHX average 2880 miles
SLC average 2635 miles

SFO - UA hub
LAS - WN hub
PHX - AA hub
SLC - DL hub

Considering that SoCal has many more people and airports than the PNW, I'd say LAS is quite nicely positioned for a hub relative to it's nearby peers. Obviously there's DEN etc but I'm just keeping it simple to show that LAS isn't all that bad.


If you're going to bring in cities to try to force connections, at least pick ones that don't have non-stops on all the majors already.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:31 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX

......huh? :confused:

2017 Greater Portland MSA: 2,453,168
Portland CSA: 3,201,058

2017 Greater Las Vegas MSA: 2,204,079
Las Vegas CSA: 2,455,481

...and PDX doesn't even have a legacy hub (some would argue that it could be a Delta focus city).
No, "FA" in my username does not stand for "flight attendant"...
 
Max Q
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:43 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX and SLC. Or better location for domestic transfers than PHX. How come it never became one? I know National tried but 9/11 hit. And allegiant currently serves it as its base but I don’t know if it adopts a hub-and-spoke model.


WN has a pseudo hub in LAS, although you could argue it more resembles a large O&D station.

Keep in mind LAS isn't known as a primarily leisure destination, which is not attractive for UA, AA, or DL to place a hub.


Did you mean to say ‘IS known as a
primary leisure destination’ ?
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Midwestindy
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:46 am

Max Q wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX and SLC. Or better location for domestic transfers than PHX. How come it never became one? I know National tried but 9/11 hit. And allegiant currently serves it as its base but I don’t know if it adopts a hub-and-spoke model.


WN has a pseudo hub in LAS, although you could argue it more resembles a large O&D station.

Keep in mind LAS isn't known as a primarily leisure destination, which is not attractive for UA, AA, or DL to place a hub.


Did you mean to say ‘IS known as a
primary leisure destination’ ?


correct, my mistake
DL DM, AA Gold in 2018, Visited 2018:AMS, ATL, AUS, BOS, BWI, CDG, CLT, CMN, DCA, DFW, DTW, DXB, EWR, FLL, FRA, HAV, HPN, JFK, JNB, IAD, IAH, IND, LAX, LGA, LHR, LOS, MAD, MCO, MIA, MSP, ORD, PBI, PHL, PVD, SAN, SEA, SJD, SLC, SFO, STL, TPA, TXL, YYZ, ZRH
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:49 am

GoSharks wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF


SEA-SFO-NYC 3250 miles
SEA-LAS-NYC 3100 miles
SEA-PHX-NYC 3260 miles
SEA-SLC-NYC 2691 miles

LAX-SFO-NYC 2910 miles
LAX-LAS-NYC 2450 miles
LAX-PHX-NYC 2500 miles
LAX-SLC-NYC 2580 miles

SFO average 3080 miles
LAS average 2775 miles
PHX average 2880 miles
SLC average 2635 miles

SFO - UA hub
LAS - WN hub
PHX - AA hub
SLC - DL hub

Considering that SoCal has many more people and airports than the PNW, I'd say LAS is quite nicely positioned for a hub relative to it's nearby peers. Obviously there's DEN etc but I'm just keeping it simple to show that LAS isn't all that bad.


If you're going to bring in cities to try to force connections, at least pick ones that don't have non-stops on all the majors already.


You miss the point. It wasn’t to define SEA or LAX viability - it was to illustrate LAS’ geographic position relative to some of its peers for the purposes of discussing a hub.

But - to respond - if you’re gonna bash my example, feel free to put a little effort in and provide your own numbers.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
AirFiero
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:50 am

fraspotter wrote:
WN has one of their largest hubs in LAS. According to WN's June 2018 media page LAS had 217 daily departures from 24 gates to 56 cities non-stop. That's 3rd only behind MDW and BWI as far as number of departures. I would definitely consider them a US major. The others may not have much of a presence there because of regional hubs close by. AA has PHX, DL has SLC, UA has SFO and pretty much everybody has one at LAX.


But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:06 am

The legacy hubs are firmly in place at this point thru so much trial and error. I don't see any looking for a drastic change

Delta has a small focus city to a few cities they see opportunity like SNA. Can't see anything more than that from a legacy.

Southwest basically has a hub in LAS. They use it very efficiently. On High O&D days they rake in the destination people and connect people on the off days. I don't think LAS has consistent enough O&D for a legacy it's way too seasonal and day if week crazy for them.

Delta is investing alot of their own money in the SLC rebuild for things they want. Don't see them leaving. They print money and have been successful chasing others out.

AA has hubs in LAX And PHX. Las is way too close.

UA is showing an increase in brining LAX back to full force. They have never really shown that much interest in LAS. Between SFO, LAX and DEN they have the west VERY well covered.
Last edited by slcdeltarumd11 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:12 am

It is one in every sense
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
GoSharks
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:23 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

SEA-SFO-NYC 3250 miles
SEA-LAS-NYC 3100 miles
SEA-PHX-NYC 3260 miles
SEA-SLC-NYC 2691 miles

LAX-SFO-NYC 2910 miles
LAX-LAS-NYC 2450 miles
LAX-PHX-NYC 2500 miles
LAX-SLC-NYC 2580 miles

SFO average 3080 miles
LAS average 2775 miles
PHX average 2880 miles
SLC average 2635 miles

SFO - UA hub
LAS - WN hub
PHX - AA hub
SLC - DL hub

Considering that SoCal has many more people and airports than the PNW, I'd say LAS is quite nicely positioned for a hub relative to it's nearby peers. Obviously there's DEN etc but I'm just keeping it simple to show that LAS isn't all that bad.


If you're going to bring in cities to try to force connections, at least pick ones that don't have non-stops on all the majors already.


You miss the point. It wasn’t to define SEA or LAX viability - it was to illustrate LAS’ geographic position relative to some of its peers for the purposes of discussing a hub.

But - to respond - if you’re gonna bash my example, feel free to put a little effort in and provide your own numbers.

Nobody is bashing anyone. I'm pointing out an area for improvement in your analysis. I have no stake here.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:36 am

GoSharks wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
GoSharks wrote:

If you're going to bring in cities to try to force connections, at least pick ones that don't have non-stops on all the majors already.


You miss the point. It wasn’t to define SEA or LAX viability - it was to illustrate LAS’ geographic position relative to some of its peers for the purposes of discussing a hub.

But - to respond - if you’re gonna bash my example, feel free to put a little effort in and provide your own numbers.

Nobody is bashing anyone. I'm pointing out an area for improvement in your analysis. I have no stake here.


It was a criticism, which is fine, but then please provide the better analysis. Honestly, I should have just saved the effort of googling all those city pairs, adding them up, and typing them when I could have just told the other guy his analysis was off.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:35 am

AirFiero wrote:
fraspotter wrote:
WN has one of their largest hubs in LAS. According to WN's June 2018 media page LAS had 217 daily departures from 24 gates to 56 cities non-stop. That's 3rd only behind MDW and BWI as far as number of departures. I would definitely consider them a US major. The others may not have much of a presence there because of regional hubs close by. AA has PHX, DL has SLC, UA has SFO and pretty much everybody has one at LAX.


But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.


They may not promote a city as a connections point, but they have plenty of connections in their largest cities.

As well, it's time to put WN into the "big 3" giving us the "big 4"
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:03 am

AirFiero wrote:
But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.



Who "promotes" connections? The promote being a huge national carrier who will take you where you want to go. That means connectivity.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:50 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX

......huh? :confused:

2017 Greater Portland MSA: 2,453,168
Portland CSA: 3,201,058

2017 Greater Las Vegas MSA: 2,204,079
Las Vegas CSA: 2,455,481


2017 Salt Lake CSA: 2,559,350

Wrong about both. Las Vegas has the smallest of the 3.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:32 pm

Delta tried a small hub in Portland

America West had a hub in Vegas

The latest national airlines had a hub in Vegas
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:43 pm

AirFiero wrote:

But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.

They absolutely have connecting banks. A look at any of their hub cities reveals such. Matter of fact they are almost identically timed to AA/DL/UA in cities where they overlap.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:59 pm

Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX and SLC.


Not true.

LAS CSA: 2,455,481
SLC CSA: 2,559,350
PDX CSA: 3,201,058

Source: List of Combined Statistical Areas on Wikipedia.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:42 pm

Southwest very much uses LAS for connections on the lower travel days. They connect alot of people thru LAS. It works out really well for them to funnel people thru when they would be flying emptier planes on less busy days. If they didn't connect so much they would need a schedule much more like Allegiant to maximize demand which is so one directional. WN has LAS figured out and basically has a major hub there.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:52 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
fraspotter wrote:
WN has one of their largest hubs in LAS. According to WN's June 2018 media page LAS had 217 daily departures from 24 gates to 56 cities non-stop. That's 3rd only behind MDW and BWI as far as number of departures. I would definitely consider them a US major. The others may not have much of a presence there because of regional hubs close by. AA has PHX, DL has SLC, UA has SFO and pretty much everybody has one at LAX.


But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.


They may not promote a city as a connections point, but they have plenty of connections in their largest cities.

As well, it's time to put WN into the "big 3" giving us the "big 4"


I haven’t flown WN for many years, and never connected flights. How well do connections work on WN?

The point I was making and I think this may go to the original posters thinking is we’re talking about a full banked hub with connections in mind.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:57 pm

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.



Who "promotes" connections? The promote being a huge national carrier who will take you where you want to go. That means connectivity.


Maybe a better word would be intent or “large number of flights timed to facilitate connections versus point to point with incidental connections”. I didn’t think I’d have to type all that, but I guess not.
 
cschleic
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:58 pm

For some reason, the site isn't letting me quote prior posts.

To comment on GoSharks' point, yes, LAS is located such that it isn't positioned as far out of the geographic area as some might think, at least in terms of being a hub for certain routes, and total trip time probably is comparable to other routings. And I like it as a hub...good weather so infrequent delays, there are flights to LAS from just about everywhere, and it's easy to get around in the airport. The only issue in terms of it being a hub for southern California, with its numerous airports, is that Socal has a significant amount of non-stop service to many U.S. cities. However, as we know, the flying public generally buys based on price so total trip time isn't a deciding factor. The bigger issue probably is that the entrenched carriers already have established hubs and aren't going to make costly operational changes unless there are transformational industry changes.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:04 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.

They absolutely have connecting banks. A look at any of their hub cities reveals such. Matter of fact they are almost identically timed to AA/DL/UA in cities where they overlap.


The may have a LOT of flights arriving at the same time, and even a constant flow of arrivals and departures, but my understanding is they don’t put much effort into timing many of those flights to optimize connections as opposed to minimizing aircraft time of the ground and gate utilization. Maybe someone who knows WN better or from the inside can offer good information on this.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:11 pm

AirFiero wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.

They absolutely have connecting banks. A look at any of their hub cities reveals such. Matter of fact they are almost identically timed to AA/DL/UA in cities where they overlap.


The may have a LOT of flights arriving at the same time, and even a constant flow of arrivals and departures, but my understanding is they don’t put much effort into timing many of those flights to optimize connections as opposed to minimizing aircraft time of the ground and gate utilization. Maybe someone who knows WN better or from the inside can offer good information on this.


STL as much a banked "hub/focus city/whatever you want to call it" as one can be in my opinion. All the planes come in and land one after another. Then they all leave one after another and you have an hour or two (with basically no flights except maybe a MDW or other large hub one off) before it all happens again. 7 or 8 times a day-ish. With legs like DSM/ICT/OKC/LIT/TUL/OMA (some are 2x a day with PDEW to STL in the 30s) and one bank with all east coast flights arriving to feed into a pretty much all west coast departing flights (1:45 pm), they have plenty of connections planned in the schedule.

Whenever I have a connection somewhere else it rarely is over an hour. So there has to be some connection thinking in mind or there would be a ton of longer connecting options.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:20 pm

If US3 wish to build a new hub in LAS , there is 30-50 mpax gap between demand and capacity.

A new large terminal and new runways / Ivanpah Valley Airport is needed
 
hz747300
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:21 pm

thegov2k2 wrote:
America West, before being acquired by US Airways, maintained a hub at LAS. Not sure where your info is coming from.


This. I recall HP had a decent operation here for some time. It can work--though much harder than 20 years ago because of WN's strength.
Keep on truckin'...
 
AirFiero
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:22 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
They absolutely have connecting banks. A look at any of their hub cities reveals such. Matter of fact they are almost identically timed to AA/DL/UA in cities where they overlap.


The may have a LOT of flights arriving at the same time, and even a constant flow of arrivals and departures, but my understanding is they don’t put much effort into timing many of those flights to optimize connections as opposed to minimizing aircraft time of the ground and gate utilization. Maybe someone who knows WN better or from the inside can offer good information on this.


STL as much a banked "hub/focus city/whatever you want to call it" as one can be in my opinion. All the planes come in and land one after another. Then they all leave one after another and you have an hour or two (with basically no flights except maybe a MDW or other large hub one off) before it all happens again. 7 or 8 times a day-ish. With legs like DSM/ICT/OKC/LIT/TUL/OMA (some are 2x a day with PDEW to STL in the 30s) and one bank with all east coast flights arriving to feed into a pretty much all west coast departing flights (1:45 pm), they have plenty of connections planned in the schedule.

Whenever I have a connection somewhere else it rarely is over an hour. So there has to be some connection thinking in mind or there would be a ton of longer connecting options.


Interesting, thanks. Would you say that is the rule or exception at WN?
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:22 pm

AirFiero wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.

They absolutely have connecting banks. A look at any of their hub cities reveals such. Matter of fact they are almost identically timed to AA/DL/UA in cities where they overlap.


The may have a LOT of flights arriving at the same time, and even a constant flow of arrivals and departures, but my understanding is they don’t put much effort into timing many of those flights to optimize connections as opposed to minimizing aircraft time of the ground and gate utilization. Maybe someone who knows WN better or from the inside can offer good information on this.


Actually, if you read through the debates on building the new MCI terminal, one point WN made is that they could utilize the airport more for connections. They don't talk about it much overtly but if you look at any city they serve, especially new one, they focus on MDW, BNA, HOU, BWI flights initially...and often LAS depending on location. It's because those are their defacto hubs. They don't call them that but you can find plenty of comments from their CEO talking about connections. Yes they still have cities like MCI that serve a hodge podge of destinations but they definitely operate banked structures that focus on connecting people.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:23 pm

TWFlyGuy wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
They absolutely have connecting banks. A look at any of their hub cities reveals such. Matter of fact they are almost identically timed to AA/DL/UA in cities where they overlap.


The may have a LOT of flights arriving at the same time, and even a constant flow of arrivals and departures, but my understanding is they don’t put much effort into timing many of those flights to optimize connections as opposed to minimizing aircraft time of the ground and gate utilization. Maybe someone who knows WN better or from the inside can offer good information on this.


Actually, if you read through the debates on building the new MCI terminal, one point WN made is that they could utilize the airport more for connections. They don't talk about it much overtly but if you look at any city they serve, especially new one, they focus on MDW, BNA, HOU, BWI flights initially...and often LAS depending on location. It's because those are their defacto hubs. They don't call them that but you can find plenty of comments from their CEO talking about connections. Yes they still have cities like MCI that serve a hodge podge of destinations but they definitely operate banked structures that focus on connecting people.


Ok, good info, thanks.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 314
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:28 pm

One problem that LAS suffers from as a hub for carriers is similar to MCO...the leisure demand has traditionally been so huge that they could never price effectively for business demand. From a revenue management perspective, when you look at probabilities, the chance a leisure passenger shows up is higher so the $300 ticket with 100% of the passenger showing up is better than the $1,000 with 25% chance of showing up. As a result, seat would always fall to lower price ticket buckets. Things have changed some as ticket restriction have gotten tighter, businesses have had more focus on buying advanced purchase tickets, etc.

It's also a driver as to why both cities have seen their economies diversified. Businesses, especially ones that have a travel component, know they can get cheap tickets. Disney in MCO and casinos in LAS pay a lot of the taxes, etc.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2164
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:59 pm

AirFiero wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

The may have a LOT of flights arriving at the same time, and even a constant flow of arrivals and departures, but my understanding is they don’t put much effort into timing many of those flights to optimize connections as opposed to minimizing aircraft time of the ground and gate utilization. Maybe someone who knows WN better or from the inside can offer good information on this.


STL as much a banked "hub/focus city/whatever you want to call it" as one can be in my opinion. All the planes come in and land one after another. Then they all leave one after another and you have an hour or two (with basically no flights except maybe a MDW or other large hub one off) before it all happens again. 7 or 8 times a day-ish. With legs like DSM/ICT/OKC/LIT/TUL/OMA (some are 2x a day with PDEW to STL in the 30s) and one bank with all east coast flights arriving to feed into a pretty much all west coast departing flights (1:45 pm), they have plenty of connections planned in the schedule.

Whenever I have a connection somewhere else it rarely is over an hour. So there has to be some connection thinking in mind or there would be a ton of longer connecting options.


Interesting, thanks. Would you say that is the rule or exception at WN?


Depends on the airport. They still fly a lot of point to point with connections not factored in as much (but available) at smaller stations. I would guess any with 90+ flights a day (especially if they have smaller legs coming of off them) are going to have connections factored in. LAX might be an exception. If you look up any route between two cities it is mostly the larger stations that are available for connections, as you would expect. I would guess that is because they are timed the best as well as have the most options to continue onto your next stop. I rarely see a smaller station as a connection spot unless its a direct flight or one stop, no plane change option. Being at a larger station (STL) and flying west a lot I see a lot of LAS/DEN/DAL/PHX pop up as my connections. To a lesser extent SAN/LAX/OAK/MDW. But that is about it. Most are under 90 minutes. I don't fly east often enough with a connection to see what is that way (I would guess BNA/BWI/ATL/MDW). Although, I did have BOS pop up as a connection from STL-AUS recently, which seemed really weird.
 
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BN727227Ultra
Posts: 530
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:47 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
As well, it's time to put WN into the "big 3" giving us the "big 4"


Agree totally.

I've never flown them, for various reasons but whenever I've priced them they've always been higher than any legacy, no matter where I was flying.
 
klm617
Posts: 3409
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:38 pm

One could argue that LAS is a hub for Allegiant.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 4236
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:50 pm

thegov2k2 wrote:
America West, before being acquired by US Airways, maintained a hub at LAS. Not sure where your info is coming from.


America West had a hub in LAS before it recognized the stupidity of having two hubs so close (PHX).

LAS gets more domestic O&D than ORD or DEN. It's a great base for an O&D carrier like Southwest.
 
777PHX
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:10 pm

klm617 wrote:
One could argue that LAS is a hub for Allegiant.


Not really.

G4 doesn't offer connections so the only way to do it would be to book two separate flights, which G4 doesn't offer any protection on if you misconnect.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4887
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
thegov2k2 wrote:
America West, before being acquired by US Airways, maintained a hub at LAS. Not sure where your info is coming from.


America West had a hub in LAS before it recognized the stupidity of having two hubs so close (PHX).

LAS gets more domestic O&D than ORD or DEN. It's a great base for an O&D carrier like Southwest.


LAS was never really utilized as a connecting hub like PHX was - it functioned more like an oversized focus city based on the LAS O&D and "also" handled some connections. About 75% of LAS-bound pax were deplaning there. For connections, HP used it mostly for the redeye bank after PHX shut down for the night (which I found absurd at the time).

LAS was "dehubbed" more like 4-5 years after the US buyout, by which time the new airline had realized that to support its (newly) much more expensive operations, they couldn't afford to pour assets into one of the lowest-yield airports in the country.
 
Caspian27
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:48 am

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:33 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
thegov2k2 wrote:
America West, before being acquired by US Airways, maintained a hub at LAS. Not sure where your info is coming from.


America West had a hub in LAS before it recognized the stupidity of having two hubs so close (PHX).

LAS gets more domestic O&D than ORD or DEN. It's a great base for an O&D carrier like Southwest.


If my memory serves me, LAS for HP was more about capitalizing on aircraft utilization late at night; I seem to remember LAS being more of a nighttime operation for them so aircraft would be flying more instead of RONing.
Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
 
gregn21
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:17 pm

It would be pretty interesting if B6 were to set up a sizable operation out of LAS. They could basically parallel the west coast routes they serve out of LGB, add LAX/SAN, and throw some major Midwest routes a la ORD, DTW, MSP, BNA, etc.

Other than B6 and maybe some AS additions, I don't know who would open a hub at LAS based on geography. Maybe Moxy or whatever Neeleman's new thing is called?
Last edited by gregn21 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:17 pm

HPRamper wrote:
LAS was never really utilized as a connecting hub like PHX was - it functioned more like an oversized focus city based on the LAS O&D and "also" handled some connections. About 75% of LAS-bound pax were deplaning there. For connections, HP used it mostly for the redeye bank after PHX shut down for the night (which I found absurd at the time).

LAS was "dehubbed" more like 4-5 years after the US buyout, by which time the new airline had realized that to support its (newly) much more expensive operations, they couldn't afford to pour assets into one of the lowest-yield airports in the country.


HP touted its late night LAS operation as an ingenious way to boost aircraft utilization while capitalizing on Las Vegas's unique 24/7 demand. While redeye services to markets like JFK and ORD were nothing out of the ordinary, the shorter haul flights departing LAS around midnight raised eyebrows due to their extremely unusual arrival times. I'll never forget when my friend who was probably about 12 or 13 was trying to check in for his HP flight to TUS via LAS with a United agent. She was so shocked by the ~2 AM arrival in TUS that we were told something along the lines of "this doesn't seem right, that's an *awfully* late arrival...let me call them and make sure this is correct" and left waiting for several minutes.

US, on the other hand, was not afraid to try "flex" flights from PHX at similar hours to the LAS operation. As they slowly but steadily wound down the LAS hub, PHX started seeing very late night flights that I believe AA may still operate today.

Caspian27 wrote:
If my memory serves me, LAS for HP was more about capitalizing on aircraft utilization late at night; I seem to remember LAS being more of a nighttime operation for them so aircraft would be flying more instead of RONing.


Correct. In general, the latest arrival from PHX to an outstation would turn back to LAS and arrive there in the late evening, around 10 or 11 PM. These flights would then leave LAS around midnight, in more than a few cases arriving between 2 and 4 AM. Those planes arriving from LAS would then handle the first departure of the day back to PHX. Some larger markets had daytime frequencies to LAS catering almost exclusively to O&D travelers, while many smaller markets only had the once daily evening flights that fed into the hub.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
gregn21
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:18 pm

It would be pretty interesting if B6 were to set up a sizable operation out of LAS. They could basically parallel the west coast routes they serve out of LGB, add LAX/SAN, and throw some major Midwest routes a la ORD, DTW, MSP, BNA, etc.

Other than B6 and maybe some AS additions, I don't know who would open a hub at LAS based on geography. Maybe Moxy or whatever Neeleman's new thing is called?

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