DeltaXNA
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:26 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF



I think you mean HP, America West and no, they were not based there



America West was based in PHX. They had a LAS hub that was primarily focused on night ops.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:42 pm

Also let's not forget most importantly: LAS is a very well served city and airport. There are already flights to almost everywhere.

It's not really a great opportunity. I would say somewhere like AUS is much more attractive to a legacy. More business travel, much more consistent flows, and it doesn't have the flights that LAS already has in place. LAS is well served and affordable ie the problem American West faced.

LAS has no hub in the traditional sense, but WN really has a hub there and connects alot of people on the off days. It's how they make those flights all work on a random Tuesday in the fall.
 
ScottB
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:33 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
HP touted its late night LAS operation as an ingenious way to boost aircraft utilization while capitalizing on Las Vegas's unique 24/7 demand. While redeye services to markets like JFK and ORD were nothing out of the ordinary, the shorter haul flights departing LAS around midnight raised eyebrows due to their extremely unusual arrival times.


HP's LAS night hub was somewhat infamous back in the day of Priceline offering name-your-own-price deals on airline tickets. You could get a screaming deal but you might also end up with a crazy out-of-the-way connection like JFK-LAS-IAH arriving IAH at 4 AM.

gregn21 wrote:
It would be pretty interesting if B6 were to set up a sizable operation out of LAS. They could basically parallel the west coast routes they serve out of LGB, add LAX/SAN, and throw some major Midwest routes a la ORD, DTW, MSP, BNA, etc.


It'd be a good way for them to burn money. Pretty much every market west of the Mississippi B6 serves from LGB (apart from seasonal HDN/BZN) has anywhere from three to ten daily WN round-trips -- so they'd be up against a competitor with comparable or better unit costs.

PlanesNTrains wrote:
You miss the point. It wasn’t to define SEA or LAX viability - it was to illustrate LAS’ geographic position relative to some of its peers for the purposes of discussing a hub.


The problem with that comparison was the use of ill-suited peers within networks having far more suitable connecting hubs (i.e. DEN/IAH/ORD for UA) in transcon markets. Yes, UA will connect some transcon routes at SFO but that's not really a primary source of traffic for that hub. AA probably carries more SEA-NYC traffic over either of ORD or DFW than PHX. LAS (like PHX) is in a good location for connecting Southern California to most of the rest of the U.S. and that's an appreciable traffic flow, but it's weak for high-yielding local business traffic (conventions tend to allow for long lead times when booking flights) and much of the high-yielding traffic from California will try to go non-stop if possible.
 
jfern022
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:35 pm

I know DL does flow some connections over LAS To SAN, SJC for people wanting to avoid other mega hubs.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:58 pm

[quote="fraspotter"

But WN doesn’t really promote connections or do timed connecting banks.[/quote]

"Promote" being they key word. I live in STL, a WN "hub-not-a-hub" but we certainly have connecting banks. As do most of WN's larger stations.
Next up: STL-DAL-ABQ-DAL-STL. 'Cause what the Hell! ;)
 
Overthecascades
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:48 am

If 9/11 didn’t hit how much longer would National have survived? Did it coexist with the HP LAS hub?
 
kimimm19
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:11 am

I would say because AA has PHX closeby, DL has SLC closeby, and UA has DEN closeby. WN has a reasonable presence there, so unless a Jetblue or Alaska wants to get into that area, there's not a whole lot of point I would say.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:37 am

FA9295 wrote:
Las Vegas is the low-cost carrier capital of the country. Allegiant, Spirit, Frontier and Southwest (if you want to call them a low-cost carrier) all have very large operations there. The US3 are already struggling enough in keeping up with these airlines by offering basic economy fares, so establishing a hub there would only be asking for more trouble.

Also, unless if you're counting AS as a "US major", PDX does not have this type of hub.


Per the US governments spec for a Major Airline both Alaska & Hawaiian have been majors for years.

According to FY2018 revenues, there were 17 major carriers who meet the requirement for Group III status.

Mainline passenger:
Alaska Airlines
Allegiant Air
American Airlines
Delta Air Lines
Frontier Airlines
Hawaiian Airlines
JetBlue
Southwest Airlines
Spirit Airlines
United Airlines

Regional passenger:
Envoy Air (subsidiary of American Airlines Group)
Republic Airlines (subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings)
SkyWest Airlines (subsidiary of SkyWest, Inc.)

Freight:
Atlas Air
FedEx Express
Polar Air Cargo
UPS Airlines
 
rbavfan
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:46 am

BobbyPSP wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF



I think you mean HP, America West and no, they were not based there


America West was based & started in Phoenix. I lived throughout it from Day 1. They had a second hub in Vegas for years. It was who the new terminal was built for.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:50 am

FA9295 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:
Las Vegas is a much bigger metropolitan area than than some of existing hubs that majors serve like PDX

......huh? :confused:

2017 Greater Portland MSA: 2,453,168
Portland CSA: 3,201,058

2017 Greater Las Vegas MSA: 2,204,079
Las Vegas CSA: 2,455,481

...and PDX doesn't even have a legacy hub (some would argue that it could be a Delta focus city).


Alaska is a legacy Carrier and a US Major carrier. They have had a PDX hub operation for years.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:07 am

rbavfan wrote:
Alaska is a legacy Carrier

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I always find it interesting how many AvGeeks don't seem to know that AS is, by definition, a Legacy carrier.... one of the only 4 (mainline eqp pax) such operators remaining.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tphuang
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:18 pm

gregn21 wrote:
It would be pretty interesting if B6 were to set up a sizable operation out of LAS. They could basically parallel the west coast routes they serve out of LGB, add LAX/SAN, and throw some major Midwest routes a la ORD, DTW, MSP, BNA, etc.

Other than B6 and maybe some AS additions, I don't know who would open a hub at LAS based on geography. Maybe Moxy or whatever Neeleman's new thing is called?

general rule of thumb is for B6 to avoid setting up focus cities in dominant WN cities. LAS works for WN because they have large focus cities everywhere which provides the O&D and they can fill the off peak days with connection. Nobody else really can do that.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:57 pm

I would love to see another HP-style night hub in LAS, but times have changed so much and so many new LCCs have moved in (NK was almost non-existent in LAS during the height of HP's hub, with just a few flights to hubs, and G4 was just getting started, with a much smaller hub than they have now...even WN was smaller back then), I just don't see a legacy operating a hub there right now (this could change though if the area keeps growing like crazy).
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:38 pm

ScottB wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
HP touted its late night LAS operation as an ingenious way to boost aircraft utilization while capitalizing on Las Vegas's unique 24/7 demand. While redeye services to markets like JFK and ORD were nothing out of the ordinary, the shorter haul flights departing LAS around midnight raised eyebrows due to their extremely unusual arrival times.


HP's LAS night hub was somewhat infamous back in the day of Priceline offering name-your-own-price deals on airline tickets. You could get a screaming deal but you might also end up with a crazy out-of-the-way connection like JFK-LAS-IAH arriving IAH at 4 AM.

gregn21 wrote:
It would be pretty interesting if B6 were to set up a sizable operation out of LAS. They could basically parallel the west coast routes they serve out of LGB, add LAX/SAN, and throw some major Midwest routes a la ORD, DTW, MSP, BNA, etc.


It'd be a good way for them to burn money. Pretty much every market west of the Mississippi B6 serves from LGB (apart from seasonal HDN/BZN) has anywhere from three to ten daily WN round-trips -- so they'd be up against a competitor with comparable or better unit costs.

PlanesNTrains wrote:
You miss the point. It wasn’t to define SEA or LAX viability - it was to illustrate LAS’ geographic position relative to some of its peers for the purposes of discussing a hub.


The problem with that comparison was the use of ill-suited peers within networks having far more suitable connecting hubs (i.e. DEN/IAH/ORD for UA) in transcon markets. Yes, UA will connect some transcon routes at SFO but that's not really a primary source of traffic for that hub. AA probably carries more SEA-NYC traffic over either of ORD or DFW than PHX. LAS (like PHX) is in a good location for connecting Southern California to most of the rest of the U.S. and that's an appreciable traffic flow, but it's weak for high-yielding local business traffic (conventions tend to allow for long lead times when booking flights) and much of the high-yielding traffic from California will try to go non-stop if possible.


My one and only point was made in response to someone saying LAS could never work geographically. I simply was illustrating that, compared to connections over other western hubs, it’s not as bad as you’d think. Apparently I’m mistaken and apparently PHX doesn’t exist as a hub.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:15 pm

Don't fly much but when I do I prefer WN. They seem to rely on frequency to make connections work. They also seem to have a computer system that looks after each connecting passenger. It is not unusual for them to change a routing for a particular passenger (or couple) every several minutes. Fortunately their public announcement system is easy to hear even for my old ears.
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Veigar
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:21 pm

Doubt that'd be a good idea. They'd just get incinerated by WN's ridiculously dominant presence in LAS. Like literally every time I go outside to take out the trash I see at least one Southwest plane take off. It's insane!
 
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malaysia
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:51 pm

HP was once big in LAS and when it was dehubbed after the US merger, practically all the HP employees were furloughed, only existing staff left was pretty much US workers who had a lot of seniority and some were former PSA staff. I think the HP hub downsized very fast over a short period in like 2008 or so during the recession.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
Tango-Bravo
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:23 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF



I think you mean HP, America West and no, they were not based there


America West/HP was indeed based at PHX; headquarters were in Tempe ~5 miles from PHX Sky Harbor, to say nothing of their main maintenance base located at the northeast corner of PHX to their flight operations that utilized the entire north half of Terminal 4 (with the exception of a few international arrivals gates) - a large airport in itself.

To the subject of whether (or not) WN operates LAS as a hub it is, for WN, at the least what could be termed an incidental hub...not unlike ATL for DL in the pre-mega hub days; so many flights arriving and departing at frequent intervals throughout the day and much of the night that connections happened whether by design or by chance due to the sheer volume of flights arriving and departing in all directions.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:16 am

Tango-Bravo wrote:
BobbyPSP wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF



I think you mean HP, America West and no, they were not based there


America West/HP was indeed based at PHX; headquarters were in Tempe ~5 miles from PHX Sky Harbor, to say nothing of their main maintenance base located at the northeast corner of PHX to their flight operations that utilized the entire north half of Terminal 4 (with the exception of a few international arrivals gates) - a large airport in itself.

To the subject of whether (or not) WN operates LAS as a hub it is, for WN, at the least what could be termed an incidental hub...not unlike ATL for DL in the pre-mega hub days; so many flights arriving and departing at frequent intervals throughout the day and much of the night that connections happened whether by design or by chance due to the sheer volume of flights arriving and departing in all directions.


My apologies to all!! I read The post too fast and thought it was implied that HP was based at LAS.

My bad. I was a CSR for HP at SFO ‘96-97 and remember the Vegas flights well.

Bobby
 
olddominion727
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:32 am

just so we're straight, USAir never acquired America West. America West acquired USAirwys, kept the name USAirways, and then acquired American and kept their name, AA. Amazing to me to think that Doug Parker, CEO of HP, is now the CEO of the largest airline in the world. If they get him out, they can turn it around the way DL did with NW merger, and the way CO did after Frank Lorenzo left!
 
olddominion727
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:33 am

just so we're straight, USAir never acquired America West. America West acquired USAirwys, kept the name USAirways, and then acquired American and kept their name, AA. Amazing to me to think that Doug Parker, CEO of HP, is now the CEO of the largest airline in the world. If they get him out, they can turn it around the way DL did with NW merger, and the way CO did after Frank Lorenzo left!
 
n562wn
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:46 am

LAX772LR wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Alaska is a legacy Carrier

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I always find it interesting how many AvGeeks don't seem to know that AS is, by definition, a Legacy carrier.... one of the only 4 (mainline eqp pax) such operators remaining.


Ahem. If you want to get technical, don't you mean 5 legacy carriers? I find it interesting that 'AvGeeks' such as yourself don't seem to remember Hawaiian.


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LAX772LR
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:01 am

n562wn wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
I always find it interesting how many AvGeeks don't seem to know that AS is, by definition, a Legacy carrier.... one of the only 4 (mainline eqp pax) such operators remaining.

Ahem. If you want to get technical, don't you mean 5 legacy carriers? I find it interesting that 'AvGeeks' such as yourself don't seem to remember Hawaiian.

Since when is HA a Legacy carrier?

Their first interstate route was, IINM, 1984....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
777PHX
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Alaska is a legacy Carrier

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I always find it interesting how many AvGeeks don't seem to know that AS is, by definition, a Legacy carrier.... one of the only 4 (mainline eqp pax) such operators remaining.


Or what the term "low cost carrier" actually means....
 
Coexstud
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:52 am

S-UAl has a FA based in Vegas or they did
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:57 am

My understanding is LAS officials do not want a hub as it could impact on their high O&D pax count. A late night HP style hub is OK as these flights were outside peak times and the existing WN connections are somewhat by chance.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:01 pm

I have seen a ton of airlines come and go out of LAS. Tristar had a hub, if that's what you wanna call an airline with 4 aircraft in its fleet. Grand Airways is another.

Sadly, I dont think the airport holds alot in terms of hopefuls as a hub unless you look at WN or the ULCC models. America West had a good sized hub, mainly running red eye flights. Would love to see an airline like America West or Reno Air again. Reno Air also had a nice sized operation out of LAS before AA came in.
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compensateme
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:57 pm

jfern022 wrote:
I know DL does flow some connections over LAS To SAN, SJC for people wanting to avoid other mega hubs.


DL has integrated their point-to-point flying as valid connections on most tariffs. For example, I’ve flown DTW-BNA-LAX and SNA-LAS-DTW, the latter several times. I’m usually the only one connecting.
I liked beer. I still like beer.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:54 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF


SEA-SFO-NYC 3250 miles
SEA-LAS-NYC 3100 miles
SEA-PHX-NYC 3260 miles
SEA-SLC-NYC 2691 miles

LAX-SFO-NYC 2910 miles
LAX-LAS-NYC 2450 miles
LAX-PHX-NYC 2500 miles
LAX-SLC-NYC 2580 miles

SFO average 3080 miles
LAS average 2775 miles
PHX average 2880 miles
SLC average 2635 miles

SFO - UA hub
LAS - WN hub
PHX - AA hub
SLC - DL hub

Considering that SoCal has many more people and airports than the PNW, I'd say LAS is quite nicely positioned for a hub relative to it's nearby peers. Obviously there's DEN etc but I'm just keeping it simple to show that LAS isn't all that bad.


I don't think your examples make sense. To go from SEA or LAX to NYC everyone goes direct. Mostly no one goes thru a hub.

A more reasonable example would be (smaller city west of LAS) to (smaller city east of LAS). Santa Barbara to Waco, or Long Beach to San Antonio. LAS would be well positioned for flights like those. But as was said above, LAS is the king of low cost carriers, and they just don't do the hub-and-spoke thing very much.
 
Overthecascades
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:07 am

Can someone please use data to show how “well served” LAS is?
 
michman
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:27 am

compensateme wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
I know DL does flow some connections over LAS To SAN, SJC for people wanting to avoid other mega hubs.


DL has integrated their point-to-point flying as valid connections on most tariffs. For example, I’ve flown DTW-BNA-LAX and SNA-LAS-DTW, the latter several times. I’m usually the only one connecting.


While LAS is a valid connecting pointing for SNA-DTW fares, a DTW-BNA-LAX routing is definitely going to be a broken fare. Bottomline, any route with a decent amount of non-stop flights (typically 4 or more) will have a non-stop routing requirement in the fare rules.

PUBLISHED RTG SNA-DTT/DL158 /TAR-DRG1 EF-02OCT18 DIS-INDEF

MAP CONSTRUCTED LEFT TO RIGHT AND RIGHT TO LEFT
1. SNA-SLC/SEA/MSP/MEM/LAX/LAS/DTT/CVG/ATL-DTT

PUBLISHED RTG DTT-LAX/DL501 /TAR-DRG1 EF-05OCT18 DIS-INDEF

TRAVEL MUST BE NONSTOP OR DIRECT
 
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compensateme
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:39 am

michman wrote:
Bottomline, any route with a decent amount of non-stop flights (typically 4 or more) will have a non-stop routing requirement in the fare rules.


For the lowest fare buckets, sure. But that’s not always an option ;). Higher fare buckets generally allow more connecting opportunities.
I liked beer. I still like beer.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:56 am

I don’t think the relative geographical isolation of LAS makes for an ideal hub location.
A313 343 B703 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:13 am

kitplane01 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF


SEA-SFO-NYC 3250 miles
SEA-LAS-NYC 3100 miles
SEA-PHX-NYC 3260 miles
SEA-SLC-NYC 2691 miles

LAX-SFO-NYC 2910 miles
LAX-LAS-NYC 2450 miles
LAX-PHX-NYC 2500 miles
LAX-SLC-NYC 2580 miles

SFO average 3080 miles
LAS average 2775 miles
PHX average 2880 miles
SLC average 2635 miles

SFO - UA hub
LAS - WN hub
PHX - AA hub
SLC - DL hub

Considering that SoCal has many more people and airports than the PNW, I'd say LAS is quite nicely positioned for a hub relative to it's nearby peers. Obviously there's DEN etc but I'm just keeping it simple to show that LAS isn't all that bad.


I don't think your examples make sense. To go from SEA or LAX to NYC everyone goes direct. Mostly no one goes thru a hub.

A more reasonable example would be (smaller city west of LAS) to (smaller city east of LAS). Santa Barbara to Waco, or Long Beach to San Antonio. LAS would be well positioned for flights like those. But as was said above, LAS is the king of low cost carriers, and they just don't do the hub-and-spoke thing very much.


All I was trying to do was to reply to someone's comment about LAS not being geographically positioned for use as a hub. I was just showing that from the PNW or SoCal (as simple examples), LAS isn't all that bad compared to PHX (current hub) or SLC (current hub), and I included SFO because when I lived in Seattle UA offered connections over SFO, though DEN was more common.

It wasn't to reflect anything regarding LAX NYC or SEA - they were just points in three geographic regions I used for reference. Feel free to replace SEA with PAE, NYC with ABE, and LAX with SBA. Makes no difference to me.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:22 am

US dismantled the old HP hub at LAS even before the AA merger, because PHX was more profitable. By the end it wasn't so much a "hub" as a single bank in each direction, eastbound on redeyes, westbound on morning flights.

There were often very cheap fares available and I flew SEA-LAS-DCA more than once despite the indirectness.
 
Overthecascades
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:29 am

Anyone know the background why HP set up LAS and PHX as its hubs despite the geo closeness?
 
mga707
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:11 am

Overthecascades wrote:
Anyone know the background why HP set up LAS and PHX as its hubs despite the geo closeness?


The LAS hub was set up as a 'back of the clock' operation, when the aircraft would otherwise be idle. Las Vegas being a 24-hour city made it viable. While there were some daytime flights, the majority of the flights arrived and left LAS between the hours of 9PM and 4AM.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:17 am

F9Animal wrote:
I have seen a ton of airlines come and go out of LAS. Tristar had a hub, if that's what you wanna call an airline with 4 aircraft in its fleet. Grand Airways is another.

Don't forget National (the 757 iteration).

Miss them!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
michman
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Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:37 pm

compensateme wrote:
michman wrote:
Bottomline, any route with a decent amount of non-stop flights (typically 4 or more) will have a non-stop routing requirement in the fare rules.


For the lowest fare buckets, sure. But that’s not always an option ;). Higher fare buckets generally allow more connecting opportunities.


Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. In the case of DTW-LAX, I checked every DL fare filing on EF and they all required non-stop/direct flights. Just because an agent might agree to re-route you doesn't mean the routing is actually valid according to the fare rules. If you did not use SDC, if you check the Fare Details: section in your email receipt, I'm willing to bet you had a broken fare.
 
Overthecascades
Topic Author
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:12 pm

Interesting to learn today that LAS is only the third largest airport for G4 by passenger count even though it’s based in LAS!
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4057
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:18 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
I have seen a ton of airlines come and go out of LAS. Tristar had a hub, if that's what you wanna call an airline with 4 aircraft in its fleet. Grand Airways is another.

Don't forget National (the 757 iteration).

Miss them!


I miss them too!!! They would have been successful in today's market.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Swadian
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:56 am

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:39 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Too far west to be east-west hub, too far south to be western north-south hub and disconnected from the eastern half of the country. Simple look at a map tells. AW built PHX because it was based there.

GF


SEA-SFO-NYC 3250 miles
SEA-LAS-NYC 3100 miles
SEA-PHX-NYC 3260 miles
SEA-SLC-NYC 2691 miles

LAX-SFO-NYC 2910 miles
LAX-LAS-NYC 2450 miles
LAX-PHX-NYC 2500 miles
LAX-SLC-NYC 2580 miles

SFO average 3080 miles
LAS average 2775 miles
PHX average 2880 miles
SLC average 2635 miles

SFO - UA hub
LAS - WN hub
PHX - AA hub
SLC - DL hub

Considering that SoCal has many more people and airports than the PNW, I'd say LAS is quite nicely positioned for a hub relative to it's nearby peers. Obviously there's DEN etc but I'm just keeping it simple to show that LAS isn't all that bad.


You forgot about ORD (UA and AA hub), MSP (DL hub), and MDW (WN hub). There's the rub.
Inland Streamliner
 
formeraa
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:27 am

Re: Las Vegas as a hub for current US majors

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:57 pm

mga707 wrote:
Overthecascades wrote:
Anyone know the background why HP set up LAS and PHX as its hubs despite the geo closeness?


The LAS hub was set up as a 'back of the clock' operation, when the aircraft would otherwise be idle. Las Vegas being a 24-hour city made it viable. While there were some daytime flights, the majority of the flights arrived and left LAS between the hours of 9PM and 4AM.


Correct. It was designed to increase aircraft utilization. The aircraft that would arrive in Western cities around 7 or 8pm (from PHX) would then turn as a night flight to LAS around 8 or 9pm. Likewse, for the Eastern cities, arrivals between 6 and 8pm would turn as a night flight to LAS. This created the so-called "night hub" at LAS. The flights would arrive at their destinations either in the middle of the night or early in the morning depending on location. Then, the planes would resume the regular flights in the morning.

HP did have other departures to/from LAS from certain major cities (e.g. SEA), but I don't recall them being scheduled as hub and spoke.

In 1999, I interviewed with HP for a job. At the time, PHX was solidly profitable, LAS was only marginally profitable (marginal revenue was only slightly higher than marginal cost), and the CMH mini-hub was losing money.

Someone mentioned that US had a flex-hub at PHX at night (essentially mimicking what they used to do at LAS). US did it during summer and holiday peak periods and AA still does it during peak periods. They just add an extra late night bank at PHX when necessary to capture peak traffic. It's very popular with passengers who don't want to waste a whole day traveling.

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