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Mortyman
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British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:14 am

British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

LONDON, Oct 8 (Reuters) - Norwegian Air Shuttle has overtaken British Airways as the biggest non-U.S. airline on transatlantic routes to and from the New York area, in the latest illustration of the low cost carrier's move into British Airways territory.

Norwegian carried 1.67 million passengers to or from airports in the New York area in the 12 months to the end of July, compared with the 1.63 million carried by British Airways, data from the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey showed.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/08/reuters ... egian.html


I think BA has poor service and product also and that it is proabably not helping either against it's rivals. Not even Norwegian.
 
runway23
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:22 am

Mortyman wrote:
I think BA has poor service and product also and that it is proabably not helping either against it's rivals. Not even Norwegian.


BA's focus has always been yield, on a CASM basis you can't compare DY vs BA.

Plus the figures given don't include IAG carriers IB, EI or LV and don't include JV partners AA or AY. Including all of those, BA still carries way more pax than Norwegian.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:27 am

runway23 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I think BA has poor service and product also and that it is proabably not helping either against it's rivals. Not even Norwegian.


BA's focus has always been yield, on a CASM basis you can't compare DY vs BA.

Plus the figures given don't include IAG carriers IB, EI or LV and don't include JV partners AA or AY. Including all of those, BA still carries way more pax than Norwegian.



Sorry but IB, EI, LV , AA, AY is not BA and it is BA and Norwegian we are talking about here.

No reason to argue With me, argue with Reuters
 
eamondzhang
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:32 am

Mortyman wrote:
runway23 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I think BA has poor service and product also and that it is proabably not helping either against it's rivals. Not even Norwegian.


BA's focus has always been yield, on a CASM basis you can't compare DY vs BA.

Plus the figures given don't include IAG carriers IB, EI or LV and don't include JV partners AA or AY. Including all of those, BA still carries way more pax than Norwegian.



Sorry but IB, EI, LV , AA, AY is not BA and it is BA and Norwegian we are talking about here.

No reason to argue With me, argue with Reuters

Indeed I agree that IB/EI/AY/AA/LV is not and should not be included in this conversation - each has their own AOC and in fact AY and AA are not even part of IAG group.

Given Norwegian's ambitious expansion it's not surprising however let's see how long it can last.

Michael
 
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neomax
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:41 am

It's a testament to how far BA has fallen. Even if BA still makes more money, there was a time not that long ago where the thought of somebody outdoing BA at their own game, NYC to LON was ridiculous because it was BA and they were the kings. Even Pan Am had its time, but the future belongs to DY.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:49 am

I would point out that this is not a LON/NYC comparison. It is a Europe/NYC comparison and BA only flies from LON to NYC. so it is not surprising really is it?
By choice BA flies premium heavy ex LHR, then a standard configured 1x daily 777 ex LGW. The A318 doesn't make much impact on pax count!
And again for some context BA passenger count continues to grow steadily on the routes it does fly, so the market is out-growing BA's capacity growth and ability (or desire) to add frequency.
I am pretty certain BA's revenue far outstrips the Norwegian carriers, and profit too. But hey, what does that matter.
Feels like an apples and pears comparison to me but still credit to Norwegian
 
skipness1E
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:54 am

DY doesn’t come close to BA in it’s home market. This is marketing bollocks.
Norwegian have conflated their pan European ops to NYC and compared it to IAG’s BA only. Apples and pears. BA have never seriously flown EU-US outwith the recently closed Open Skies.
 
a350lover
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:56 am

Facts here to me:

Norwegian has a remarkable product which is appealing to many customers. If sustainable and successful, likely to be a good first-choice for every day more and more customers. But only if financially viable.

BA has a super-strong network of its own, plus all the codesharing, agreements, and joint ventures which they are part of. Quite incomparable to the limited amount of Norwegian long-haul flights from LGW, which if you look at the times on the LGW-JFK route, they actually target other profile of pax. They just need to work on how to maximise revenue from there (enlargening premium cabins, etc.)

Despite that, Norwegian market share in the USA hasn't stopped increasing. The issue could be whether Norwegian is targeting the leisure or the business traffics. They operate in some routes which are purely leisure, but some others are a mix of both, or highly business. They have done it all, and that to me isn't great.
Last edited by a350lover on Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
chrisp390
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:57 am

If you are going to split the AA/BA/IB numbers then you should do the same for Norwegian UK, Norwegian Ireland, and Norwegian International, and any other subsidiaries they have flying to NYC.
 
idlewild
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:32 am

I wonder if BA will make a go for Stewart to even the odds. Isn't this how they handled Virgin back in the early '80s when they established EWR to LGW? I wonder if Norwegian will look into ACY to cover the whole PANY/NJ territory.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:49 am

Congratulations to DY! Even if BA covers more of the business traffic, BA's numbers include only London and DY's numbers include multiple European cities, and this was only New York and not the rest of Northern America.

Still, this is remarkable. Note that BA's business model is in part to fly people from Europe to places within North America. DY has taken a dent in that market leadership, when it comes to New York.

Of course BA still leads in the business service and when one considers the entire continent and not just New York.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:58 am

Tesla is very good at selling cars at a loss.Norwegian is also very good at selling airline tickets at a loss.The same fate will befall both of them.
Making money is the tricky bit!
 
LupineChemist
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:01 pm

Mortyman wrote:
runway23 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I think BA has poor service and product also and that it is proabably not helping either against it's rivals. Not even Norwegian.


BA's focus has always been yield, on a CASM basis you can't compare DY vs BA.

Plus the figures given don't include IAG carriers IB, EI or LV and don't include JV partners AA or AY. Including all of those, BA still carries way more pax than Norwegian.



Sorry but IB, EI, LV , AA, AY is not BA and it is BA and Norwegian we are talking about here.

No reason to argue With me, argue with Reuters


Fine, but then you need to split DI, DU and DY.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:08 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
runway23 wrote:

BA's focus has always been yield, on a CASM basis you can't compare DY vs BA.

Plus the figures given don't include IAG carriers IB, EI or LV and don't include JV partners AA or AY. Including all of those, BA still carries way more pax than Norwegian.



Sorry but IB, EI, LV , AA, AY is not BA and it is BA and Norwegian we are talking about here.

No reason to argue With me, argue with Reuters


Fine, but then you need to split DI, DU and DY.



Again, I am simply referring to an article here.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:12 pm

Norwegian have direct flights fron New York area to 15 airport:
Direct flights to European cities


Flights from New York to Barcelona
Flights from New York to London
Flights from New York to Madrid
Flights from New York to Paris (Charles de Gaulle)
Flights from New York to Paris (Orly)
Flights from New York to Rome
Flights from New York to Amsterdam
Flights from New York to Copenhagen

Flights from New York to Copenhagen
Flights from New York to Stockholm
Flights from New York to Oslo
Flights from New York to Dublin
Flights from New York to Edinburgh
Flights from New York to Shannon
Flights from New York to Bergen

I don't see much value in this comparision to BA.
 
yuomi
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:12 pm

Utterly pointless comparison.

ex-London, BA carries more than DY. This is literally the only market that is relevant.

DY have combined passenger numbers from ALL the European markets they fly from to ALL the NYC's ports of entry they use (including SWF).

This is a marketing and PR team contorting itself to try and manufacture headlines where there are none.
 
evomutant
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:13 pm

A much better product at a much better price will do that.

Whether it is sustainable is another question.
 
tonystan
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:18 pm

Ugh, what a stupid article.

Two months ago we learned how the most profitably operated route by any airline in the world was BAs LON-NYC! It far exceeds any hope of competition by Norwegian or anyone else for that matter.

So no, I don’t think BA is quite shaking in its boots just yet. Especially considering this is more about Norwegians general EU-NYC market and not just London.
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:24 pm

Commentary from Norwegian:

Norwegian, has become the largest non-U.S. airline on transatlantic routes to and from the New York area based on passenger numbers. The airline carried 1.67 million international passengers to and from three of New York City’s airports according to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey’s most recent traffic report, surpassing British Airways, which carried 1.63 million, to reach the top spot.

Since the beginning of 2018, Norwegian’s passenger numbers to and from New York City have continued to increase, the airline has now also overtaken Lufthansa and Emirates to reach the top spot in July. Norwegian operates 16 routes from three airports in the New York City area – John F. Kennedy International Airport, Newark Liberty International and Stewart International Airport to: Amsterdam; Barcelona; Belfast; Bergen; Copenhagen; Dublin; Edinburgh; Guadeloupe; London; Madrid; Martinique; Oslo; Paris; Rome; Shannon; and Stockholm. Norwegian launched its first route to New York on May 30, 2013 from Oslo and Stockholm on May 31, 2013.

Bjørn Kjos, Norwegian CEO and Founder, said: ““Passenger numbers by the NY/NJ Port Authority further endorses the strong demand for lower fares on lucrative transatlantic routes as we flew more customers to and from New York than any other international airline in the 12 months to July 2018.

“Fares have been too high for too long as transatlantic routes have been long dominated by carriers with outdated legacies running on fumes.



Numbers from New York Port Authority here:

http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traf ... Y_2018.pdf

Norwegian:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressrel ... rk-2750705
 
yuomi
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:29 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Commentary from Norwegian:

Norwegian, has become the largest non-U.S. airline on transatlantic routes to and from the New York area based on passenger numbers. The airline carried 1.67 million international passengers to and from three of New York City’s airports according to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey’s most recent traffic report, surpassing British Airways, which carried 1.63 million, to reach the top spot.

Since the beginning of 2018, Norwegian’s passenger numbers to and from New York City have continued to increase, the airline has now also overtaken Lufthansa and Emirates to reach the top spot in July. Norwegian operates 16 routes from three airports in the New York City area – John F. Kennedy International Airport, Newark Liberty International and Stewart International Airport to: Amsterdam; Barcelona; Belfast; Bergen; Copenhagen; Dublin; Edinburgh; Guadeloupe; London; Madrid; Martinique; Oslo; Paris; Rome; Shannon; and Stockholm. Norwegian launched its first route to New York on May 30, 2013 from Oslo and Stockholm on May 31, 2013.

Bjørn Kjos, Norwegian CEO and Founder, said: ““Passenger numbers by the NY/NJ Port Authority further endorses the strong demand for lower fares on lucrative transatlantic routes as we flew more customers to and from New York than any other international airline in the 12 months to July 2018.

“Fares have been too high for too long as transatlantic routes have been long dominated by carriers with outdated legacies running on fumes.


The thing is this is actually MORE impressive WITHOUT the BA comparison, which makes it seem like they're grasping at self-congratulatory straws by comparing apples with oranges.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:37 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Commentary from Norwegian:

Norwegian, has become the largest non-U.S. airline on transatlantic routes to and from the New York area based on passenger numbers. The airline carried 1.67 million international passengers to and from three of New York City’s airports according to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey’s most recent traffic report, surpassing British Airways, which carried 1.63 million, to reach the top spot.

Since the beginning of 2018, Norwegian’s passenger numbers to and from New York City have continued to increase, the airline has now also overtaken Lufthansa and Emirates to reach the top spot in July. Norwegian operates 16 routes from three airports in the New York City area – John F. Kennedy International Airport, Newark Liberty International and Stewart International Airport to: Amsterdam; Barcelona; Belfast; Bergen; Copenhagen; Dublin; Edinburgh; Guadeloupe; London; Madrid; Martinique; Oslo; Paris; Rome; Shannon; and Stockholm. Norwegian launched its first route to New York on May 30, 2013 from Oslo and Stockholm on May 31, 2013.

Bjørn Kjos, Norwegian CEO and Founder, said: ““Passenger numbers by the NY/NJ Port Authority further endorses the strong demand for lower fares on lucrative transatlantic routes as we flew more customers to and from New York than any other international airline in the 12 months to July 2018.

“Fares have been too high for too long as transatlantic routes have been long dominated by carriers with outdated legacies running on fumes.



Numbers from New York Port Authority here:

http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traf ... Y_2018.pdf

Norwegian:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressrel ... rk-2750705


That’s a lot of bollocked data you are using. To lump all of the various Norwegian alias Airlines together to get that headline and not allow BA to include its other carries of IAG is a bad comparison.

You keep citing the Reuter’s article but journalists are wrong very often. How many times after an air crash will they cite “the 4 engined B737” or some other totally wrong information. I suspect Norwegian is pushing this theory and some chump at Reuter’s took the bait.

Just so we are taking about the correct time period isn’t this when NO was using the ultra high density A380 to NYC? Comparing sardine cane operation s of a LCC like Norwegian to a premium class carrier like BA is ridiculous. Let’s see who made the most $$ during that time frame. The Y cabins tend to not cover the bills and that is the customer Norwegian is seeking. Can we just get to the point where they go the path of Primera? If I was a cheap flyer and held tickets on Norwegian for the holidays I would be very nervous.

One final note isn’t Norwegian shuttering the EDI routes to the US? Doesnt look like they will hold this dubious title very long
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:38 pm

I bet BA still produces double the revenue of Norwegian...
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:41 pm

I think what Norwegian has done is quite impressive. Number one foreign airline in capacity is quite an accomplishment for an airline that only started flights to New York 5 years ago. Now whether or not they make money and can sustain it is a different question

Mortyman wrote:
I think BA has poor service and product also and that it is proabably not helping either against it's rivals. Not even Norwegian.


I don’t think Norwegian has better service or a better product in economy. Norwegian is up front about all the fees and what their product is so expectations match reality. BA has steadily dropped the quality of its economy product so while they actually still have some offerings that are superior to Norwegian such free food, expectations are higher.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:56 pm

Always wondered when Brexit is done, how will Norwegian still operate US-UK? The way they do it now is based on the EU regs. Those fly out the window when the exit is done. Why would UK allow those ops at that point. They will not have to.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:56 pm

BA has those dreadful tired 747s on its NYC routes, should have got rid of years ago ..
 
Boof02671
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:03 pm

Capacity doesn’t equal profits.
 
B747forever
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:14 pm

Why are people taking this so personal? So what if Norwegian is the largest foreign airline in NYC? I dont get the anger in this thread.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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vhtje
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:19 pm

Mortyman wrote:

Sorry but IB, EI, LV , AA, AY is not BA and it is BA and Norwegian we are talking about here.

No reason to argue With me, argue with Reuters


I will argue with you: the DY figures are not just LON - NYC. BA is only LON - NYC. Therefore, it is valid to include BA's JV partners IB, AY, AA - hell, even LEVEL and EI should be included.

That would then be an apples-to-apples comparison.

But it remains true that the growth of DY on TATL routes is remarkable.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
B747forever
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:31 pm

vhtje wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

Sorry but IB, EI, LV , AA, AY is not BA and it is BA and Norwegian we are talking about here.

No reason to argue With me, argue with Reuters


I will argue with you: the DY figures are not just LON - NYC. BA is only LON - NYC. Therefore, it is valid to include BA's JV partners IB, AY, AA - hell, even LEVEL and EI should be included.

That would then be an apples-to-apples comparison.



Well yeah, they dont compare specific markets, but largest foreign carrier in NYC. As a foreign carrier, Norwegian is larger than BA in NYC. AA/IB/AY are separate carriers, thus you can't add their numbers to compare them to Norwegian.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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Channex757
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:33 pm

Utter nonsense. If we want a like for like comparison, then add in all the numbers for Aer Lingus and Iberia.

Both are part of the same company, IAG. Just taking BA on its own is total crap when a proper comparison would be IAG. Norwegian has different operating divisions too with aircraft registered in the UK, Norway and Ireland.

This story is worthy of all the scorn being poured on it.
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:39 pm

mcdu wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Commentary from Norwegian:

Norwegian, has become the largest non-U.S. airline on transatlantic routes to and from the New York area based on passenger numbers. The airline carried 1.67 million international passengers to and from three of New York City’s airports according to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey’s most recent traffic report, surpassing British Airways, which carried 1.63 million, to reach the top spot.

Since the beginning of 2018, Norwegian’s passenger numbers to and from New York City have continued to increase, the airline has now also overtaken Lufthansa and Emirates to reach the top spot in July. Norwegian operates 16 routes from three airports in the New York City area – John F. Kennedy International Airport, Newark Liberty International and Stewart International Airport to: Amsterdam; Barcelona; Belfast; Bergen; Copenhagen; Dublin; Edinburgh; Guadeloupe; London; Madrid; Martinique; Oslo; Paris; Rome; Shannon; and Stockholm. Norwegian launched its first route to New York on May 30, 2013 from Oslo and Stockholm on May 31, 2013.

Bjørn Kjos, Norwegian CEO and Founder, said: ““Passenger numbers by the NY/NJ Port Authority further endorses the strong demand for lower fares on lucrative transatlantic routes as we flew more customers to and from New York than any other international airline in the 12 months to July 2018.

“Fares have been too high for too long as transatlantic routes have been long dominated by carriers with outdated legacies running on fumes.



Numbers from New York Port Authority here:

http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traf ... Y_2018.pdf

Norwegian:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressrel ... rk-2750705


That’s a lot of bollocked data you are using. To lump all of the various Norwegian alias Airlines together to get that headline and not allow BA to include its other carries of IAG is a bad comparison.



I am not using anything. New York Port authority is presenting the airlines this way. How you read their pdf, is is a different matter.


Why are you taking this out on me ?

Glad to see you are still here mcdu …. I have almost missed you … :-)
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:41 pm

Mortyman wrote:
British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

LONDON, Oct 8 (Reuters) - Norwegian Air Shuttle has overtaken British Airways as the biggest non-U.S. airline on transatlantic routes to and from the New York area, in the latest illustration of the low cost carrier's move into British Airways territory.

Norwegian carried 1.67 million passengers to or from airports in the New York area in the 12 months to the end of July, compared with the 1.63 million carried by British Airways, data from the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey showed.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/08/reuters ... egian.html


I think BA has poor service and product also and that it is proabably not helping either against it's rivals. Not even Norwegian.

Including SWF is a little iffy, but OK. I'm still shocked that's the case.

They don't say they are including SWF, but it seems to me they would have to be to get to those numbers...?
 
LupineChemist
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:48 pm

Mortyman wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:
Mortyman wrote:


Sorry but IB, EI, LV , AA, AY is not BA and it is BA and Norwegian we are talking about here.

No reason to argue With me, argue with Reuters


Fine, but then you need to split DI, DU and DY.



Again, I am simply referring to an article here.



We know how well the press gets nuance in aviation. The thing is it's either multiple AOCs operating as one business or a per AOC basis. Norwegian is just a brand that operates multiple airlines so while the TATL JV operates as separate brands, it's still the same business. So it's just not an apples to apples comparison to compare just BA to all of the Norwegian brand. It's either AA/BA/IB/AY against DI/DU/DY together or just one of them. That the press doesn't get that Norwegian isn't a single airline isn't the truth's fault.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:49 pm

British Airways only flies to London from New York. Which airline carries more passengers to London? That would be a better comparison.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:54 pm

NYPECO wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
mcdu wrote:

That’s a lot of bollocked data you are using. To lump all of the various Norwegian alias Airlines together to get that headline and not allow BA to include its other carries of IAG is a bad comparison.


I am not using anything. New York Port authority is presenting the airlines this way. How you read their pdf, is is a different matter.


Why are you taking this out on me ?

Glad to see you are still here mcdu …. I have almost missed you … :-)

If I'm reading the pdf correctly, IAG carries more passengers than Norwegian when Aer Lingus is included (which doesn't include all the other IAG airlines that didn't make the top 12).
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:55 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
LupineChemist wrote:

Fine, but then you need to split DI, DU and DY.



Again, I am simply referring to an article here.



We know how well the press gets nuance in aviation. The thing is it's either multiple AOCs operating as one business or a per AOC basis. Norwegian is just a brand that operates multiple airlines so while the TATL JV operates as separate brands, it's still the same business. So it's just not an apples to apples comparison to compare just BA to all of the Norwegian brand. It's either AA/BA/IB/AY against DI/DU/DY together or just one of them. That the press doesn't get that Norwegian isn't a single airline isn't the truth's fault.


Americans LOVE playing word games.
I have another one: name an "airline" that flies between every continent on the planet? "VIRGIN"!!!
 
airfrnt
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:43 pm

A couple of things here:
1) The title here is about foreign flags into New York, not into London. BA folks, there is lift outside of Heathrow ;-)
2) The problem with DY has never been their product. They have great brand new planes, with low prices and great customer service. The question is, is this approach sustainable. The airline industry likes to take a dump on anyone who is a upstart and constantly question them for no other reason then they are disruptive. I still remember the hostile questioning of B6 and F9 on this forum. This is nothing new. There can be a new entrant with a intriguing business model without it being a affront to your carrier.
3) None of that says that DY is sustainable. Their bull case is that they are building market, and the market will hold when they have to raise their fares and the next downturn occurs. Their bear case is that if they can't be profitable now, why do we think they will be in the future?
 
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:08 pm

Norwegian is becoming a PR company with an airline attached. Being the largest NYC area airline outside of North America is indeed an achievement of sorts but how they got there, in what form and how sustainable it all is has become questionable. Comparisons with British Airways are unnecessary and unfair, it paints of a picture of huge Norwegian success when the reality is very different at the moment.

Simply adding Aer Lingus to the British Airways figures in NYC and you overtake Norwegian again, add the entire IAG group of airlines and it becomes dwarfed!

B747forever wrote:
Why are people taking this so personal? So what if Norwegian is the largest foreign airline in NYC? I dont get the anger in this thread.

I think people are becoming bored of the regular marketing bluff in relation to Norwegian. It's the financials that count and even they appear swamped with faux achievement, self appointed titles and spin.

Galwayman wrote:
BA has those dreadful tired 747s on its NYC routes, should have got rid of years ago ..

It has has nothing to do with that, reading the thread would have told you that.

The 747s are old but it's a complete myth that they are knackered, 18 of the 38 were retrofitted just two years ago and are now in a "Super High J" layout and regulars on the JFK route. Suggesting they should have got rid of them years ago is madness.
 
chrisp390
Posts: 689
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:11 pm

Hi Fly better start dusting off the A380 and picking up a few more, because if the Norwegian operation goes under that will be a lot of stranded passengers.
 
hooverman
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:04 pm

The fierce reactions are a surprise.
 
GalebG4
Posts: 193
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:18 pm

Freddie Laker would be proud on Norwegian. Nearly 30 years later when British dumped Laker in the pages of history. Hopefully long haul works out for them.
 
Brickell305
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:37 pm

hooverman wrote:
The fierce reactions are a surprise.


Not really. People on this site are very attached to their favorite and/or employer airline so it's understandable even when it's irrational.

The article is saying that Norwegian is now the largest foreign transatlantic carrier. BA previously held that spot. Who else would they compare them to?
 
Brickell305
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Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:38 pm

The funniest part is people saying that AA's numbers should be added to BA's total. Last I checked, AA was not a non-US carrier.
 
LupineChemist
Posts: 801
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:40 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
hooverman wrote:
The fierce reactions are a surprise.


Not really. People on this site are very attached to their favorite and/or employer airline so it's understandable even when it's irrational.

The article is saying that Norwegian is now the largest foreign transatlantic carrier. BA previously held that spot. Who else would they compare them to?


Eh, I really couldn't care less about being the biggest, I just get annoyed that Norwegian plays games so that they are separate airlines when convenient or one when it's convenient to them. Live by the games, die by the games. Norwegian is no more an airline than IAG is, so if they want to compare to one airline of a business, they should be willing to do the same.

Though I can't say I blame them, if I could get Reuters to write a piece of publicity for me, I'd be all over that, too and it's just marketers doing their job.
 
planesarecool
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:45 pm

The anti-Norwegian rhetoric on this forum is both hilarious and embarrassing. The fact that people are so offended by the company is laughable.
 
Bradin
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:49 pm

Doesn't IAG Group own a 4.6% stake in Norwegian Air?
 
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yowza
Posts: 4493
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:18 pm

It's crazy to see how much Norwegian plays in the market which a few short years ago would have been 100% unthinkable. Do, however, spend a few seconds to examine the doublespeak. The biggest foreign airline would be Air Canada but the article sticks "transatlantic" in there BUUUUUT not all DY pax ex-JFK are flying transatlantic. Let's not forget 6 weekly flights to both FDF and PTP. So with some simple back of the napkin math, this claim can be shown to be demonstrably false.

2 destinations * 186 seats per flight * 2 sectors (in/out) * 0.25 load factor * 6 flights a week * 52 weeks yields = 58,032 pax carried
So if JFK-FDF-JFK and JFK-PTP-JFK are running at just 25% LF then BA still has the upper hand in what is already an idiotic comparison because 1.67M-58k < 1.63M.
 
mcdu
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:43 pm

planesarecool wrote:
The anti-Norwegian rhetoric on this forum is both hilarious and embarrassing. The fact that people are so offended by the company is laughable.


Not sure offended is a proper term. Many are wise to the one card Monte game that Norwegian is playing. They are a failing business that carries lots of discount seekers at a loss. It’s an unsustainable business and buying a ticket on them for future travels is risky.

There are fixed cost to doing business. The Norwegian operation doesn’t generate enough revenue to cover their fixed cost. This is with all the aliases and flags of convenience. Speculation is high from business insiders that Norwegian and WOW are destined to fold in the near future. The fact that this obscure stat is being trumpeted as the case for a ringing success shows how desperate Norwegian is for positive news. You didn’t see BA or Reuter’s touring their dominance prior to this monthly report. You know why? Because it’s not a relevant chart. With AA and BA being such close partners, especially in JFK to LHR it’s lacking truth to leave those numbers out. Just like with DL and VS in many of their markets where DL has replaced some VS service and vice versa. With a JV if you want to compare seats filled and that’s what this is supposedly about then you need to see all the seats including the JV.

The biggest factor is revenue and Norwegian loses in every metric. Perhaps they can tout they serve more cokes per month than BA. That would surely be cause for celebration at a company that is staring down liquidation. I only hope jet fuel continues to rise. That will hopefully end the Norwegian experiment more quickly.
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 3077
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Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:58 pm

So many of you are completely missing the point.

The point was that, excluding Air Canada, British Airways was the largest foreign carrier in terms of passengers flown to/from the New York City area. As of July, Norwegian bumped British Airways out of that spot. The metric is PASSENGERS FLOWN - not routes. This isn't a reflection of BA losing significant share on LON-NYC, it's that BA is no longer carrying the most passengers in/out of NYC. That's it!
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4383
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: British Airways loses New York crown to low cost rival Norwegian

Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:20 pm

BA doesn't really offer anything to keep the masses. This will only get worse.

They nickel and dime you just like Norweigan. Norweigan offers nice new planes at fantastic prices. The legacies don't really have an answer other than forming their own LCC..........enter Level.

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