kavok
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:16 am

It sounds like STL was requiring WW to operate service year round to receive the subsidy, where perhaps other airports were only requiring seasonal service for their subsidies. Maybe the winter operation created too much red ink.

Perhaps WW simply looked at the losses they were incurring to operate STL in the winter, and decided that those losses exceeded the value of the STL subsidy and any profit earned over the summer. Remember this is WW’s first winter in STL, so they may not have fully known how well or poorly winter sales would actually be until now.

Whereas at CLE or elsewhere, they only needed to operate in the summer to earn the subsidy... which made those markets much more appealing because there was no wintertime loss.
 
Jshank83
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Re: WW ending STL (for now)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:50 am

F9Fan wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I am pretty surprised they aren't coming back for next summer. Makes me wonder if they will be coming back for any of the seasonal routes not on the schedule yet.

CLE says WW is coming back in the spring, but hasn't stated when exactly.


Up until today STL thought they were flying year round for 2 years, so I think anything they said before this date probably needs to be taken with a grain of salt. CLE may want to re ask them. Hopefully they don’t cut anymore cities but I have a feeling recent cuts are just the start.
 
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enilria
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:03 am

kavok wrote:
It sounds like STL was requiring WW to operate service year round to receive the subsidy, where perhaps other airports were only requiring seasonal service for their subsidies. Maybe the winter operation created too much red ink.

Perhaps WW simply looked at the losses they were incurring to operate STL in the winter, and decided that those losses exceeded the value of the STL subsidy and any profit earned over the summer. Remember this is WW’s first winter in STL, so they may not have fully known how well or poorly winter sales would actually be until now.

Whereas at CLE or elsewhere, they only needed to operate in the summer to earn the subsidy... which made those markets much more appealing because there was no wintertime loss.

If they survive the Winter they will be back in STL and if they aren’t FI will be. I feel very confident that the subsidy was not why they are operating STL later than CVG or CLE. I think it has to be performance driven. I’m more concerned that they are dropping a lot of flying and aren’t occupying the aircraft.

EDIT: I realized something. WW was running two banks in the Summer. Flights left the East cities at either ~1800 or 0030. More or less. Because STL and DFW are so much farther they were 1/2 in each bank. The 0030 from the USA bank was made up of CVG, CLE, DTW, and maybe BWI with DFW and STL in that bank pair in one direction. I believe the only flight left in this bank for the Winter were STL and maybe BWI. DTW moved to the early bank. That may be why this happened. No feed in one direction in the Winter.
 
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stl07
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:11 am

enilria wrote:
kavok wrote:
It sounds like STL was requiring WW to operate service year round to receive the subsidy, where perhaps other airports were only requiring seasonal service for their subsidies. Maybe the winter operation created too much red ink.

Perhaps WW simply looked at the losses they were incurring to operate STL in the winter, and decided that those losses exceeded the value of the STL subsidy and any profit earned over the summer. Remember this is WW’s first winter in STL, so they may not have fully known how well or poorly winter sales would actually be until now.

Whereas at CLE or elsewhere, they only needed to operate in the summer to earn the subsidy... which made those markets much more appealing because there was no wintertime loss.

If they survive the Winter they will be back in STL and if they aren’t FI will be. I feel very confident that the subsidy was not why they are operating STL later than CVG or CLE. I think it has to be performance driven. I’m more concerned that they are dropping a lot of flying and aren’t occupying the aircraft.

Yea, that worries me too. JFK, CVG, CLE, now STL, (PIT is on deathwatch, their schedule has not been renewed)...
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stl07
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:12 am

A detailed article that more or less blamed WW's $ status
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... 62b34.html
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Jshank83
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:24 am

Another article with this quote. Sounds like they were caught off for sure guard.

“We had talked to them and they said, 'No, we will be loading the schedule here in the near future for the spring and summer,' said airport director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge. "So we were caught a little bit by surprise and I think they are just growing very fast.”

https://kplr11.com/2018/10/15/airport-o ... ouncement/

I did email back and forth with one fo the airport PR people a bit after my original email this morning asking what was up with he price jumps and them saying they would check on it. The last email I got said - For now, it is a full pullout of the market. Not sure if the "for now" means they could come back or it just alludes to them still being a little caught off guard and not 100% sure what is going on.

EDIT: One more quote.

"We actually were working with them last week on looking at some future promotions, so yes, it came as a big surprise," she says. "Not at all what we had expected."

The airport hadn't yet given WOW any incentives, and it's no longer eligible for them.

Service is scheduled to end January 7. WOW Airlines entered the St. Louis market in May.

Hamm-Niebruegge says a lot of people took that flight, and that could make other carriers pay attention.

"Our bookings on that flight were very, very strong," she says.

Hamm-Niebruegge says Lambert is still looking for non-stop European destinations - roughly 300 people leave St. Louis for international destinations daily.

https://kmox.radio.com/articles/interna ... n-st-louis
Last edited by Jshank83 on Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
LambertMan
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:36 am

Never saw this coming. :roll:

The short stint is really kind of embarrassing. The day this flight started I thought it was settling - nothing more, nothing less.

What else is new.....
 
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stl07
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:46 am

LambertMan wrote:
Never saw this coming. :roll:

The short stint is really kind of embarrassing. The day this flight started I thought it was settling - nothing more, nothing less.

What else is new.....

Well, at least by the load factors, it proved an STL-Eu market was there.
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stlgph
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:42 am

ultrapig wrote:
I live in St. Louis and I think this is good for Lambert. Maybe its backwards thinking. WOW is great if you want to go to Iceland. Its also pretty good if you want a real cheap trip to some European cities.. However we already have one stop service through Dulles, JFK, Newark etc which is better than changing in Iceland.From where I sit it drew off some of the tourist travelers to Europe making it more difficult for a major carrier like BA to come to St. Louis and fill the back end with tourists.


You'd rather go through Newark or Dulles?

Hell, I thought I drank a lot....


KEF any time, upside down, in a blizzard with a tornado for a connection compared to those airports.
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stlgph
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:43 am

stl07 wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
Never saw this coming. :roll:

The short stint is really kind of embarrassing. The day this flight started I thought it was settling - nothing more, nothing less.

What else is new.....

Well, at least by the load factors, it proved an STL-Eu market was there.


For $200.

What about sustaining fares at $1200.
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flyPIT
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:58 am

pmanni1 wrote:
PIT as well. I messaged Wow on facebook and they responded by saying STL is not suspended but that they don't have the spring/summer schedule finalized for all the cities yet.

???

PIT remains bookable.


stl07 wrote:
(PIT is on deathwatch, their schedule has not been renewed)...

Drama much? PIT's schedule remains the same. Orlando's booking window has not been extended yet either. Lets wait to see what happens.
FLYi
 
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TWA302
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:31 pm

STL was the first to fall and I think that JShank83's communication with the airport peeps expedited the announcement from WW. Other cities will see the guillotine fall on them soon. PIT, MCO CLE, CVG, etc. It is just a matter of time. They are hemorrhaging cash and their lack of "luck" to secure the $116 Million in financing to keep them afloat is a sign that they have more than just deplorable customer service. Mogensen wants to have an IPO in early 2019? Ha! That should be interesting to see. Stocks will be rated as JUNK, if it evens comes to life.

This really is just par for the course for STL. Demand is there. With the demise of WW it would not shock me to see FI birds at the D/E gates by mid Summer 2019.
 
kavok
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:43 pm

For all those saying that WW will go away, and route XXX-KEF previously operated by WW will just be replaced by FI.... I have this question:

What is different about FI that would allow FI to make money on XXX-KEF, whereas WW loses money operating that same route. My point is basically that if WW was making so much money on STL-KEF (or any other destinations being dropped), why are they ending service? It would seem that WW would need to run every profitable route they can given their unfortunate cash situation. So why end it?
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:59 pm

TWA302 wrote:
STL was the first to fall and I think that JShank83's communication with the airport peeps expedited the announcement from WW. Other cities will see the guillotine fall on them soon. PIT, MCO CLE, CVG, etc. It is just a matter of time. They are hemorrhaging cash and their lack of "luck" to secure the $116 Million in financing to keep them afloat is a sign that they have more than just deplorable customer service. Mogensen wants to have an IPO in early 2019? Ha! That should be interesting to see. Stocks will be rated as JUNK, if it evens comes to life.

This really is just par for the course for STL. Demand is there. With the demise of WW it would not shock me to see FI birds at the D/E gates by mid Summer 2019.


So two simple lessons:
1. an island of 300,000 people cant support two hubbed carriers
2. trying to survive on ULCC connecting fares doesnt work.

PS stocks are listed as JUNK, that is bonds....maybe WOW can trade on Penny Stock Pink Sheets like in wolf of wall street.
 
Jshank83
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:09 pm

kavok wrote:
For all those saying that WW will go away, and route XXX-KEF previously operated by WW will just be replaced by FI.... I have this question:

What is different about FI that would allow FI to make money on XXX-KEF, whereas WW loses money operating that same route. My point is basically that if WW was making so much money on STL-KEF (or any other destinations being dropped), why are they ending service? It would seem that WW would need to run every profitable route they can given their unfortunate cash situation. So why end it?


I am not in the FI will just replace them camp, but WW wise I think they are being forced to retract some because they expanded too quickly and are spread too thin. I think they will focus on bigger markets and try to cut out costs/overhead. There are tons of routes airlines could make money on but don't run for a variety of reasons. It has been quoted a fair amount of times (by different airports) that STL was the strongest add this summer. They wouldn't have added an extra flight and scheduled it for winter if it wasn't profitable, and if they did then no wonder they are in the financial situation they are in. I think others will be cut also. I just think this came out first, partly because it was scheduled year round and the pricing issue was noticed. Seasonal routes don't have prices to look at. I think the newest routes are probably the most likely to go. They have been in PIT for an extra year now so it might stick around since it is more established.

FI does run smaller planes which would mean less seats to fill and are looked at like a somewhat more full service carrier, but they don't have the low prices WW does. So I think it would work but I don't think it is a given they would just come in and fill the void. I don't know if they still have slack in their fleet to add a new route next year. It is getting late in the season for adds.
 
Jshank83
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:29 pm

CLE and CVG getting axed as well.

Apparently WOW wasn't happy with the loads from any of them.

https://twitter.com/ChrisNagusKMOV/stat ... 5896118275
 
Bigant0408
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:34 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
CLE and CVG getting axed as well.

Apparently WOW wasn't happy with the loads from STL.

https://twitter.com/ChrisNagusKMOV/stat ... 5896118275


Smh Wow is just a hot mess right now. I wouldn't be surprised of the fold withing a year. I feel sorry for CLE CVG and STL. Myabe FI will pick up CVG and STL and make CLE year round.
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Midwestindy
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:49 pm

Certainly does not look good for STL's TATL ambitions, considering WW characterized it as a disappointment.

The demand is there it is just a matter of getting BA to bite.
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TWA302
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:00 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
CLE and CVG getting axed as well.

Apparently WOW wasn't happy with the loads from any of them.

https://twitter.com/ChrisNagusKMOV/stat ... 5896118275



What does your LF report show for WW since they started STL,
 
Jshank83
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Certainly does not look good for STL's TATL ambitions, considering WW characterized it as a disappointment.

The demand is there it is just a matter of getting BA to bite.


I am just a little confused why they would add frequencies if loads weren't where they wanted on top of telling the airport sales were good. That is going to decrease them even more. Doesn't make much sense to me but then again maybe that is why they are in financial trouble.

There was a follow up tweet that WOW wants 90% LF to stick around... okay then
Last edited by Jshank83 on Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Bigant0408 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
CLE and CVG getting axed as well.

Apparently WOW wasn't happy with the loads from STL.

https://twitter.com/ChrisNagusKMOV/stat ... 5896118275


Smh Wow is just a hot mess right now. I wouldn't be surprised of the fold withing a year. I feel sorry for CLE CVG and STL. Myabe FI will pick up CVG and STL and make CLE year round.


CLE still has FI running 7+ months. CVG still has the year-round DL CDG non-stop. Short end of the stick here is STL unfortunately.
 
chalupas54
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:04 pm

This is definitely a huge set back for STL. I really feel terrible for the RouteDev team. This stings horribly. Will be very difficult to get another TATL to enter the STL market again.
 
777PHX
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:09 pm

stlgph wrote:
ultrapig wrote:
I live in St. Louis and I think this is good for Lambert. Maybe its backwards thinking. WOW is great if you want to go to Iceland. Its also pretty good if you want a real cheap trip to some European cities.. However we already have one stop service through Dulles, JFK, Newark etc which is better than changing in Iceland.From where I sit it drew off some of the tourist travelers to Europe making it more difficult for a major carrier like BA to come to St. Louis and fill the back end with tourists.


You'd rather go through Newark or Dulles?

Hell, I thought I drank a lot....


KEF any time, upside down, in a blizzard with a tornado for a connection compared to those airports.


I'd much rather make a connection stateside and have a nice long flight to sleep and arrive at a decent hour than lose an entire day to sitting in an airport and not landing somewhere in mainland Europe until 7-8PM.

I punched in a connection to LGW just for shits and giggles. Flight leaves at 10:55 PM STL time, lands in KEF at 10:40AM, which is still early on your body clock. There's a five hour layover to a flight that doesn't land in London until almost 8 PM local time.

Yeah, no. That sounds miserable.
 
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TWA302
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:12 pm

chalupas54 wrote:
This is definitely a huge set back for STL. I really feel terrible for the RouteDev team. This stings horribly. Will be very difficult to get another TATL to enter the STL market again.


I think you are wrong. STL will see another carrier. One that actually can sustain their business with a viable and sound financial portfolio and customer service that SERVES their customers. WW has none of that. You don't loose 42 million in 18 months running a successful operation.
 
chalupas54
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:14 pm

TWA302 wrote:
chalupas54 wrote:
This is definitely a huge set back for STL. I really feel terrible for the RouteDev team. This stings horribly. Will be very difficult to get another TATL to enter the STL market again.


I think you are wrong. STL will see another carrier. One that actually can sustain their business with a viable and sound financial portfolio and customer service that SERVES their customers. WW has none of that. You don't loose 42 million in 18 months running a successful operation.


Not exactly. STL is experiencing significant difficulty being taken seriously by TATL carriers. It is a serious issue that many airport officials have expressed - repeatedly. The fact that STL was allegedly unable to fill an A321 to KEF, regardless of circumstances, is not at all going to bode well for meetings going forward.

I hope I am wrong, but this is very bad.
 
stlgph
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:18 pm

kavok wrote:
For all those saying that WW will go away, and route XXX-KEF previously operated by WW will just be replaced by FI.... I have this question:

What is different about FI that would allow FI to make money on XXX-KEF, whereas WW loses money operating that same route. My point is basically that if WW was making so much money on STL-KEF (or any other destinations being dropped), why are they ending service? It would seem that WW would need to run every profitable route they can given their unfortunate cash situation. So why end it?


A couple of things - WOW was an operational mess, whereas Icelandair is a better planned, better managed organization up and down the dial -- better brand recognition, better corporate structure, better fleet utilization across the network, etc. etc. Icelandair keeps the flows moving east to west west to east 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. WOW was always struggling to get people from Point A to Point B close to their scheduled time.

On top of that, Icelandair has the resources of the Icelandair Group, helping to add to the bottom line when it comes to selling tours, tourism add-ons, hotels, etc.

Outside of that, I don't see Icelandair swooping in to take over anything WOW drops on the ground. A few reasons -

1) STL just got "dinged" by a "shitty" airline from Iceland. So, another airline from Iceland coming in, might not necessarily receive such a warm welcome, even if it is a much better carrier.

2) IceAir is doing its own network adjustment for 2019, working on building a strong, second bank, and smartly working out the kinks and best fleet utilization for its now mixed fleet...remember a few years ago it was 757s, now it's 767s, 737s, and 757s. I just don't see them deciding to cherry pick and conveniently add PIT, CVG, STL, DTW, etc. etc. I could be wrong, but for them, it would just be stupid right now. They need to just "chill" for the moment and see what happens with WOW and what's going on now that AA, UA, and AC are getting serious about Iceland O&D.


For now, STL's best bet is to chase Aer Lingus.
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SRQKEF
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 pm

kavok wrote:
For all those saying that WW will go away, and route XXX-KEF previously operated by WW will just be replaced by FI.... I have this question:

What is different about FI that would allow FI to make money on XXX-KEF, whereas WW loses money operating that same route. My point is basically that if WW was making so much money on STL-KEF (or any other destinations being dropped), why are they ending service? It would seem that WW would need to run every profitable route they can given their unfortunate cash situation. So why end it?


I'm not necessarily sure that FI will just jump in on the routes that WOW is leaving as history tells us FI is generally conservative when it comes to adding routes. That being said, the difference in FI adding new destinations is that they already have very strong brand recognition in destinations on the other side of the Atlantic. This applies to both Europe and N-America.

So, let's say FI start STL next summer. Now they're already well known to travellers in Scandinavia, Germany, the UK, AMS, Paris, Switzerland etc so they already have a large group of potential customers to draw from. Add to that the fact that they'd be the only TATL show in town on the American side and they could very well have a winner on their hands (see success of smaller markets such as ANC, MCI, PDX, DEN, YEG etc). The same would apply if they add a new European route, as they already have strong brand recognition in NYC, BOS, YYZ, MSP, SEA etc.

I think WW's problem is that they were banking too much on being the only show in town on the American side, and are still a newcomer that isn't well known in the larger markets on both sides of the Atlantic. From what I've heard, their flights to the markets being cut (CLE, CVG, STL) were 90+% filled with Americans only which would support this theory.

regards!
Sveinn :)
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stlgph
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:25 pm

It's also the demographics of the market. Icelandair needs to choose markets where everyone connecting in KEF isnt trying to get to London, Paris, or Amsterdam. They just don't have the capacity or the means to be doing shuttles to and from those destinations. They need markets in North America where there is interest to spread the love to Helsinki, Stockholm, and even places such as Trondheim, Stavanger, etc. etc.
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SRQKEF
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:31 pm

stlgph wrote:
kavok wrote:
For all those saying that WW will go away, and route XXX-KEF previously operated by WW will just be replaced by FI.... I have this question:

What is different about FI that would allow FI to make money on XXX-KEF, whereas WW loses money operating that same route. My point is basically that if WW was making so much money on STL-KEF (or any other destinations being dropped), why are they ending service? It would seem that WW would need to run every profitable route they can given their unfortunate cash situation. So why end it?


A couple of things - WOW was an operational mess, whereas Icelandair is a better planned, better managed organization up and down the dial -- better brand recognition, better corporate structure, better fleet utilization across the network, etc. etc. Icelandair keeps the flows moving east to west west to east 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. WOW was always struggling to get people from Point A to Point B close to their scheduled time.

On top of that, Icelandair has the resources of the Icelandair Group, helping to add to the bottom line when it comes to selling tours, tourism add-ons, hotels, etc.

Outside of that, I don't see Icelandair swooping in to take over anything WOW drops on the ground. A few reasons -

1) STL just got "dinged" by a "shitty" airline from Iceland. So, another airline from Iceland coming in, might not necessarily receive such a warm welcome, even if it is a much better carrier.

2) IceAir is doing its own network adjustment for 2019, working on building a strong, second bank, and smartly working out the kinks and best fleet utilization for its now mixed fleet...remember a few years ago it was 757s, now it's 767s, 737s, and 757s. I just don't see them deciding to cherry pick and conveniently add PIT, CVG, STL, DTW, etc. etc. I could be wrong, but for them, it would just be stupid right now. They need to just "chill" for the moment and see what happens with WOW and what's going on now that AA, UA, and AC are getting serious about Iceland O&D.

For now, STL's best bet is to chase Aer Lingus.



Agreed on all counts. From what I've seen so far, FI seems to be adding more flights to its proven destinations next year to beef up the new connecting bank rather than throwing new darts at the dartboard. For example, both Munich and Frankfurt will go from 1x to 2x daily flights and Berlin and Hamburg go from 5x weekly to 10x weekly (perhaps a late aftershock from AB going down?). I think we're more likely to see more of these more "boring" additions to their schedule rather than many new destinations.
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SRQKEF
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:33 pm

stlgph wrote:
It's also the demographics of the market. Icelandair needs to choose markets where everyone connecting in KEF isnt trying to get to London, Paris, or Amsterdam. They just don't have the capacity or the means to be doing shuttles to and from those destinations. They need markets in North America where there is interest to spread the love to Helsinki, Stockholm, and even places such as Trondheim, Stavanger, etc. etc.


FWIW, FI stopped serving both TRD and SVG last year. But I agree with your statement, and I think that's why the PNW (PDX, SEA and YVR) and DEN have been so successful for them as the people in those markets are often affluent and looking for "different" destinations.
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dabpit
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:33 pm

TWA302 wrote:
STL was the first to fall and I think that JShank83's communication with the airport peeps expedited the announcement from WW. Other cities will see the guillotine fall on them soon. PIT, MCO CLE, CVG, etc. It is just a matter of time. They are hemorrhaging cash and their lack of "luck" to secure the $116 Million in financing to keep them afloat is a sign that they have more than just deplorable customer service. Mogensen wants to have an IPO in early 2019? Ha! That should be interesting to see. Stocks will be rated as JUNK, if it evens comes to life.

This really is just par for the course for STL. Demand is there. With the demise of WW it would not shock me to see FI birds at the D/E gates by mid Summer 2019.


MCO is winter only and has been stated as such in the press release regarding the announcement of MCO.
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enilria
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:35 pm

So I think my earlier post now makes even more sense with the TLV announcement and the TLV announcement should give hope to STL.

The bank that supported this trip and the 1230 flights from the East is being eliminated for the Winter. Because of the distance there was no other possible schedule to operate the flight and connect other than having a plane just sitting nearly a full day. Which brings us to TLV.

They dropped TLV because it was very similar. Results were good, but the connecting structure created a really long ground time in TLV. With all the markets being cut they are now willing to have that plane sit nearly a day in TLV. I’m going to guess the choice became whether to have TLV sit all day or have STL sit all day and TLV has performed better.

Also, it didn’t appear TLV was coming back and it did. I think STL could be the same. PIT was seasonal at first. WOW hasn’t said explicitly to my knowledge that the flight isn’t coming back.

Finally, doing the OAG thread these types of seasonal suspensions on Atlantic are extremely common. They only really unusual ones are between JV hubs. So, on the one hand WW making all these routes seasonal isn’t a big deal. The problem is that other than TLV there’s really nowhere else for WW to use the planes in Winter. That’s a problem financially. Either WW’s expansion is over it this is a seasonal drop. There are few other USA options better than STL if they are still expanding.
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:49 pm

PIT has always been year round on WW, it just drops to 4x weekly. A group of 20 of us went to Berlin this past January using them.
 
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SRQKEF
Posts: 1863
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:58 pm

enilria wrote:
Also, it didn’t appear TLV was coming back and it did. I think STL could be the same. PIT was seasonal at first. WOW hasn’t said explicitly to my knowledge that the flight isn’t coming back.


Icelandic media has reported today that STL will be cut completely, so no seasonal return.
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FSDan
Posts: 2565
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:58 pm

enilria wrote:
Also, it didn’t appear TLV was coming back and it did. I think STL could be the same.


I don't know, the comments from STL officials seem pretty gloomy, and they've been talking to the carrier directly... If WW had intentions of bringing the service back, I think you'd see more positive spin.
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stlgph
Posts: 10974
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:11 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
stlgph wrote:
It's also the demographics of the market. Icelandair needs to choose markets where everyone connecting in KEF isnt trying to get to London, Paris, or Amsterdam. They just don't have the capacity or the means to be doing shuttles to and from those destinations. They need markets in North America where there is interest to spread the love to Helsinki, Stockholm, and even places such as Trondheim, Stavanger, etc. etc.


FWIW, FI stopped serving both TRD and SVG last year. But I agree with your statement, and I think that's why the PNW (PDX, SEA and YVR) and DEN have been so successful for them as the people in those markets are often affluent and looking for "different" destinations.


Oh I totally missed that one. Interesting.

But you get the point.
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max999
Posts: 1116
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:39 pm

I believe that the people who are insisting that high demand at STL exists are incorrect. Demand is elastic and it changes based on price. I think the very low prices charged by WW stimulated demand in STL that otherwise wouldn't exist. I think that demand will be lower even if Icelandair or Norwegian started flying to STL because WW charges the lowest transatlantic fares out of any airline.
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Jshank83
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:49 pm

Sounds like DFW and JFK could be gone also, undecided.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 659892002/
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:57 pm

max999 wrote:
I believe that the people who are insisting that high demand at STL exists are incorrect. Demand is elastic and it changes based on price. I think the very low prices charged by WW stimulated demand in STL that otherwise wouldn't exist. I think that demand will be lower even if Icelandair or Norwegian started flying to STL because WW charges the lowest transatlantic fares out of any airline.


I think it stimulated demand with people who wouldn't regularly fly to Europe or maybe flew an extra trip they wouldn't normally because price allowed it. I would be interested to see how many people who already flew to Europe regularly switched over. I wasn't going to take them except if I was specifically flying to Iceland. I would imagine there were a lot of other people in that same boat. So, I think there is an argument to be made that if a more full service carrier came in then all those people who were flying to Europe before WOW could somewhat condense to that airline. It just is a different traveler you are going after. Like how CVG had DL and WOW. They aren't going after the same market segment so it is kind of hard to say one will work but not the other. IF CVG didn't have DL would wow have been more successful? Maybe, but I doubt it would have made a huge difference. If you have to connect anyway it doesn't matter if it is New York or Iceland if you don't want to fly on an ULCC
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2555
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:20 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Certainly does not look good for STL's TATL ambitions, considering WW characterized it as a disappointment.

The demand is there it is just a matter of getting BA to bite.


I am just a little confused why they would add frequencies if loads weren't where they wanted on top of telling the airport sales were good. That is going to decrease them even more. Doesn't make much sense to me but then again maybe that is why they are in financial trouble.

There was a follow up tweet that WOW wants 90% LF to stick around... okay then

They did the same thing for CVG, and curiously went on the record just recently stating they were happy with the performance of the route last summer. Suspiciously for CVG, the increased frequency perfectly met the minimum number of flights threshold required to get the incentives offered. I wonder if the situation was similar for STL.
 
F9Fan
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:42 pm

Re: WW ending STL (for now)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:23 pm

F9Fan wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I am pretty surprised they aren't coming back for next summer. Makes me wonder if they will be coming back for any of the seasonal routes not on the schedule yet.

CLE says WW is coming back in the spring, but hasn't stated when exactly.

And now I see CLE and CVG are being cancelled as well.
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 1617
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 pm

enilria wrote:
PIT was seasonal at first.

Probably the third time I've corrected you on this. PIT was year round from the beginning.
FLYi
 
stlgph
Posts: 10974
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:18 pm

Let's see.

Press person: "Hi Wow Air, how are you feeling about passenger response in City XXX?"

Option A: "We are pleased with the performance and look forward to building the route and our brand."

Option B: "It sucks balls and we're out of here"

Option C: "No comment" (a.k.a. "it sucks balls and we're out of here")

Please, please, **PLEASE** people ... tell me you're not surprised by the repetitive Answer A.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 4955
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:28 pm

stlgph wrote:
Let's see.

Press person: "Hi Wow Air, how are you feeling about passenger response in City XXX?"

Option A: "We are pleased with the performance and look forward to building the route and our brand."

Option B: "It sucks balls and we're out of here"

Option C: "No comment" (a.k.a. "it sucks balls and we're out of here")

Please, please, **PLEASE** people ... tell me you're not surprised by the repetitive Answer A.


Given how things are shaking out for them, it's interesting to see where they are now given how high and mighty they were not too long ago. Media in Columbus reported that WW visited but passed on CMH.
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jrkstl
Posts: 15
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Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:15 pm

I shopped WW a few times to see if we could get it to work with a stopover in Iceland, then on to a planned trip to France next year. I just couldn't make the days/times really work with the choices I had, so it was on to DL for my trip. Feeling very happy with that decision right about now...
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:20 pm

stlgph wrote:
Let's see.

Press person: "Hi Wow Air, how are you feeling about passenger response in City XXX?"

Option A: "We are pleased with the performance and look forward to building the route and our brand."

Option B: "It sucks balls and we're out of here"

Option C: "No comment" (a.k.a. "it sucks balls and we're out of here")

Please, please, **PLEASE** people ... tell me you're not surprised by the repetitive Answer A.


Generally in this business hearing “your city will remain an important part of our network” is code for looking at the transfer list.

AA hung around STL far too long in the lost decade of Arpey with mounting losses. Even TWA with its low costs and feed into STL couldn’t profitably operate transatlantic (at the time of the asset purchase TW had axed most of their STL-Europe market with just LGW and seasonal CDG left)

If STL to Europe was meant to be it would have happened already.
 
gnakra80
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:23 pm

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:44 pm

N983AN wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Let's see.

Press person: "Hi Wow Air, how are you feeling about passenger response in City XXX?"

Option A: "We are pleased with the performance and look forward to building the route and our brand."

Option B: "It sucks balls and we're out of here"

Option C: "No comment" (a.k.a. "it sucks balls and we're out of here")

Please, please, **PLEASE** people ... tell me you're not surprised by the repetitive Answer A.


Generally in this business hearing “your city will remain an important part of our network” is code for looking at the transfer list.

AA hung around STL far too long in the lost decade of Arpey with mounting losses. Even TWA with its low costs and feed into STL couldn’t profitably operate transatlantic (at the time of the asset purchase TW had axed most of their STL-Europe market with just LGW and seasonal CDG left)

If STL to Europe was meant to be it would have happened already.



This is factually incorrect. TWA was doomed because Carl Icahn had a sweetheart deal that allowed him to buy seats at a heavily discounted price, and sell for whatever he wanted price the seats at. This led to the bankruptcy in the mid 90s. TWA wasn’t able to recover from this. People often times forget that at that time had a pretty significant Fortune 500 base.

The reason that there are no direct European flights is because the airport won’t give out subsidies and because St Louis city and county operate independently. Over 15M people travel out of STL annually, more than Nashville, Pittsburgh, and Indy which all have direct service to Europe, and there are 300 people that travel to Europe on any given day. (This is based off of info in this chain.)
 
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stl07
Topic Author
Posts: 1577
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: WW ending STL

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:54 pm

N983AN wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Let's see.

Press person: "Hi Wow Air, how are you feeling about passenger response in City XXX?"

Option A: "We are pleased with the performance and look forward to building the route and our brand."

Option B: "It sucks balls and we're out of here"

Option C: "No comment" (a.k.a. "it sucks balls and we're out of here")

Please, please, **PLEASE** people ... tell me you're not surprised by the repetitive Answer A.


Generally in this business hearing “your city will remain an important part of our network” is code for looking at the transfer list.

AA hung around STL far too long in the lost decade of Arpey with mounting losses. Even TWA with its low costs and feed into STL couldn’t profitably operate transatlantic (at the time of the asset purchase TW had axed most of their STL-Europe market with just LGW and seasonal CDG left)

If STL to Europe was meant to be it would have happened already.

Not to be a fanboy but STL has way high numbers than some of the cities that got flights. You know what STL doesn't have-- state-funded incentives
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joeman
Posts: 827
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: WW ending STL

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:02 am

kavok wrote:
It sounds like STL was requiring WW to operate service year round to receive the subsidy, where perhaps other airports were only requiring seasonal service for their subsidies. Maybe the winter operation created too much red ink.

Perhaps WW simply looked at the losses they were incurring to operate STL in the winter, and decided that those losses exceeded the value of the STL subsidy and any profit earned over the summer. Remember this is WW’s first winter in STL, so they may not have fully known how well or poorly winter sales would actually be until now.

Whereas at CLE or elsewhere, they only needed to operate in the summer to earn the subsidy... which made those markets much more appealing because there was no wintertime loss.


Per CLE news:
https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index. ... cleve.html

"Cleveland offered both Wow and Icelandair $1 million each in marketing and advertising support, to be spread over two years, in exchange for the new service. According to the airport, Wow spent just $55,000 of that money, in support of the 2018 Cleveland Marathon and 2018 North Coast Harbor Ice Fest"

I don't feel we ever get a full accounting on subsidies advertised, certainly not the $ fully expended
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: WW ending STL

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:04 am

gnakra80 wrote:
N983AN wrote:
stlgph wrote:
Let's see.

Press person: "Hi Wow Air, how are you feeling about passenger response in City XXX?"

Option A: "We are pleased with the performance and look forward to building the route and our brand."

Option B: "It sucks balls and we're out of here"

Option C: "No comment" (a.k.a. "it sucks balls and we're out of here")

Please, please, **PLEASE** people ... tell me you're not surprised by the repetitive Answer A.


Generally in this business hearing “your city will remain an important part of our network” is code for looking at the transfer list.

AA hung around STL far too long in the lost decade of Arpey with mounting losses. Even TWA with its low costs and feed into STL couldn’t profitably operate transatlantic (at the time of the asset purchase TW had axed most of their STL-Europe market with just LGW and seasonal CDG left)

If STL to Europe was meant to be it would have happened already.



This is factually incorrect. TWA was doomed because Carl Icahn had a sweetheart deal that allowed him to buy seats at a heavily discounted price, and sell for whatever he wanted price the seats at. This led to the bankruptcy in the mid 90s. TWA wasn’t able to recover from this. People often times forget that at that time had a pretty significant Fortune 500 base.

The reason that there are no direct European flights is because the airport won’t give out subsidies and because St Louis city and county operate independently. Over 15M people travel out of STL annually, more than Nashville, Pittsburgh, and Indy which all have direct service to Europe, and there are 300 people that travel to Europe on any given day. (This is based off of info in this chain.)


Not defending Icahn, but an activist like him coming in (or Eddie Lampert in the case of SHLD today) is a symptom of a bigger problem.

No need to rehash the history, the fundamentals of the STL market aren’t there. The area and local economy is at best stagnant. Myself and other nAAtives have suffered enough since TWA was imposed on us, again also no need there.

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