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KLSMB
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Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:13 am

I’ve been wondering about this for a while, brought it up in another topic but thought it could use its own thread.

With the 737-MAX8s starting to join the fleet, I’m curious as to if Air Canada would be looking into opening any new daily service to some of the secondary UK cities outside of their current service at Heathrow. The 7M8 is showing a range of 6510km (4048m), which would work for major destinations in the UK outside of the London area that can’t support wide-body aircraft year-round.

A few possibilities:

YYZ-MAN
3434 miles
Daily
Already served summer seasonally daily by Air Canada Rouge 763. This route could easily move to 7M8 operation with Daily service year-round. Would free up a Rouge 763 frame and would be an overall increase in service spread over the entire year. Definitely a perfect route for the 7M8.

YYZ-BFS
3253 miles
Daily
Currently not served by any major airline across the
Atlantic (except for a few seasonal Virgin Atlantic charters to Orlando). Belfast has heavy ties with Canada, and would be a gateway to Northern Ireland for passengers traveling to/from Canada and to/from the United States. While DUB is just over 2 hours away, Belfast located in a different country/province/region (however you like to define the status of Northern Ireland) than Dublin, and has strong demand for non-stop service to Canada and the USA. Currently to fly between BFS and YYZ, passengers must backtrack using Aer Lingus (AC codeshare) to LHR for connections. The 7M8 seems ideal for this route.

YYZ-GLA
3293 miles
Daily
Already served seasonally multiple times weekly in the summer on Air Canada Rouge 763. Dowguaging to the 7M8 would allow for daily year-round service on the route, and would become the only daily service between Scotland and Canada. Glasgow has a strong economic base, major business community, and is a major year-round tourist destination. Fast rail connections to neighboring Edinburgh are frequent and convenient. While they are located quite near each other, Glasgow has a higher demand for government/business/entertainment traffic than Edinburgh, so the current seasonal AC Rouge YYZ-EDI service would compliment a new YYZ-GLA daily service nicely.

YYZ-BHX
3479 miles
Daily
There is currently no service from Birmingham to North America despite strong demand. It’s located halfway between London and Mancher, but is able to sustain daily service to destinations across Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and East Asia. An important financial and manufacturing hub, Air Canada should have no trouble filling a daily 7M8 on this route and would be able to provide connections across Canada and the United States.

I personally think that YYZ to MAN, BFS, and GLA would be a perfect utilization of the 7M8 for an increase of service to major cities outside of London in the UK. BHX would be great, but may be a long shot because of its distance in relation to London.

Here’s hoping Air Canada will be sending more 7M8’s across the pond soon to open up access to the whole of the UK non-stop from their YYZ hub.
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:55 am

Personally I can only see MAN happening and thats at an push. There are better money making destinations they can send the 7M8 to before MAN.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:00 am

Samrnpage wrote:
There are better money making destinations they can send the 7M8 to before MAN.

Like what?

I agree that MAN would probably be the only realistic UK expansion for Air Canada (since all of the other airports listed by the OP have been on the significant decline for TATL flights), and with the 7M8, I think the opportunity is definitely there for MAN...
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:25 am

FA9295 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
There are better money making destinations they can send the 7M8 to before MAN.

Like what?

I agree that MAN would probably be the only realistic UK expansion for Air Canada (since all of the other airports listed by the OP have been on the significant decline for TATL flights), and with the 7M8, I think the opportunity is definitely there for MAN...


Loads, you have to think about the opportunity cost of opening a route like MAN with a 7M8 for Air Canada. Its possible but seeing as they have tried all the above before and now only MAN has seasonal rouge flights I think that they will focus elsewhere. Then again, they have recently announced Bordeaux 4x weekly with 7M8, so who knows.
 
richcandy
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:01 am

Belfast had summer charter flights to Toronto. In the early 1990’s there were up to four flights a week in peak season. (2 of which were operated by AC).

The world has however changed. People from the north are maybe more willing to fly out of DUB that they have ever been and DUB offers more choice than BFS can. I know there is more to Northern Ireland than Belfast but Belfast to Dublin Airport is about 1 hr 45 mins by car. Takes me longer than that to get from Canterbury to Heathrow.

Alex
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:16 am

I could actually see GLA and BFS happening....
 
kimimm19
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:09 am

It would be nice if AC, the best of the Intl NA carriers, would stop the need for BHX passengers to first go back on themselves to Europe before heading over to NA.
 
Skyblue39
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:23 am

kimimm19 wrote:
It would be nice if AC, the best of the Intl NA carriers, would stop the need for BHX passengers to first go back on themselves to Europe before heading over to NA.


That’s not necessary. BHX passengers can transfer easily in Dublin to many North American destinations.
 
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nighthawk
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:37 am

KLSMB wrote:

YYZ-GLA
3293 miles
Daily
Already served seasonally multiple times weekly in the summer on Air Canada Rouge 763. Dowguaging to the 7M8 would allow for daily year-round service on the route, and would become the only daily service between Scotland and Canada. Glasgow has a strong economic base, major business community, and is a major year-round tourist destination. Fast rail connections to neighboring Edinburgh are frequent and convenient. While they are located quite near each other, Glasgow has a higher demand for government/business/entertainment traffic than Edinburgh, so the current seasonal AC Rouge YYZ-EDI service would compliment a new YYZ-GLA daily service nicely.



Every single point you made here about Glasgow is wrong!

Edinburgh has a much stronger economic base, it's a bigger business community, and it is a much bigger inbound tourist destination that Glasgow. It's also the seat of the scottish parliament, so has stronger government traffic too. Just look at the flights from Edinburgh vs Glasgow - United fly to Glasgow once daily, summer only, yet fly 3 times daily to EDI in the summer, and once daily winter. What does that tell you about the profile of passengers?

Glasgow has the larger population, and therefore performs much better on outbound tourism routes. It has been the traditional gateway to canada, and has a number of flights on Air Transat, plus other charter carriers. WestJet also operate a service in summer.

Glasgow probably has a stronger demand for travel to Canada in the summer, but not for any of the reasons you mentioned. It's all outbound tourism. Glasgow is therefore perfectly suited for Air Canada Rouge operations. I don't see that changing.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:44 am

You missed one strong plus for GLA. That's VFR traffic.

There is quite a substantial population in Canada of first to third generation migrant Scots. Many from the Glasgow of yore where emigration was a route to a better life all round.

Visiting friends and relatives becomes a useful chunk of the route's possible bums on seats.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:07 am

Skyblue39 wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
It would be nice if AC, the best of the Intl NA carriers, would stop the need for BHX passengers to first go back on themselves to Europe before heading over to NA.


That’s not necessary. BHX passengers can transfer easily in Dublin to many North American destinations.


Well, yes and no. If you transfer from BHX in DUB you most likely have to go EI. Poster was mentioning flying AC, so there you go. And whilst not necessarily backtracking, stopping in DUB is not ideal either when a direct flight could be had.
Indeed BHX could certainly do with some NB direct connections to Canada on AC 7M8s....
 
ghYHZ
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:09 am

Channex757 wrote:
You missed one strong plus for GLA. That's VFR traffic.

There is quite a substantial population in Canada of first to third generation migrant Scots. Many from the Glasgow of yore where emigration was a route to a better life all round.....


Yes…lots of ties between Scotland and New Scotland (Nova Scotia….I’m actually from New Glasgow, NS) Air Canada always served Prestwick and later Glasgow on the Halifax-Heathrow route (YHZ-GLA is WestJet now in summer)

And this brings back memories of my first trip across the pond on an Air Canada’s L-1011 from Halifax to Prestwick in ’89.

It was still dark out….. we deplaned to the ramp, there was no bridge and walked to the terminal in what the FA described as a “light Scotch Mist!”…….and it just set the mood! Customs was a breeze and I was on my way into Glasgow on a ScotRail train within a half hour. Here I was Scotland starting a 10 day UK trip…having just crossed the Atlantic in just a little over 4 hrs. I almost had to pinch myself!

AC860 L-1011, Feb 6, 1989
Push-back Gate 18 at Halifax: 22:32 AT (Atlantic Time)
Wheels up at Halifax: 22:47 AT (or 02:47 British Time)
Wheels down at Prestwick: 07:11 BT
At Gate in Prestwick: 07:19 BT
 
digitalcloud
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:15 am

nighthawk wrote:
KLSMB wrote:

YYZ-GLA
3293 miles
Daily
Already served seasonally multiple times weekly in the summer on Air Canada Rouge 763. Dowguaging to the 7M8 would allow for daily year-round service on the route, and would become the only daily service between Scotland and Canada. Glasgow has a strong economic base, major business community, and is a major year-round tourist destination. Fast rail connections to neighboring Edinburgh are frequent and convenient. While they are located quite near each other, Glasgow has a higher demand for government/business/entertainment traffic than Edinburgh, so the current seasonal AC Rouge YYZ-EDI service would compliment a new YYZ-GLA daily service nicely.



Every single point you made here about Glasgow is wrong!

Edinburgh has a much stronger economic base, it's a bigger business community, and it is a much bigger inbound tourist destination that Glasgow. It's also the seat of the scottish parliament, so has stronger government traffic too. Just look at the flights from Edinburgh vs Glasgow - United fly to Glasgow once daily, summer only, yet fly 3 times daily to EDI in the summer, and once daily winter. What does that tell you about the profile of passengers?

Glasgow has the larger population, and therefore performs much better on outbound tourism routes. It has been the traditional gateway to canada, and has a number of flights on Air Transat, plus other charter carriers. WestJet also operate a service in summer.

Glasgow probably has a stronger demand for travel to Canada in the summer, but not for any of the reasons you mentioned. It's all outbound tourism. Glasgow is therefore perfectly suited for Air Canada Rouge operations. I don't see that changing.


Both cities have very strong economies, however Edinburgh has a slight advantage in the business community and obvisouly much greater advantage in government traffic like you say. United is a result of the stronger inbound tourism market which is particularly predominant from the USA, however it's worth remembering that these tourists often go beyond Edinburgh.

With regard to Canada from GLA, Transat is not a charter carrier nor are any of the flights to Canada. VFR traffic will always be the dominant market however the amount of inbound tourism is significant, particularly on Air Canada connecting via YYZ. It is by no means 'all outbound tourism'.

GLA and EDI are both suited to Rouge, I don't see either of them changing to be honest.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:32 am

KLSMB wrote:
YYZ-MAN
3434 miles
Daily
Already served summer seasonally daily by Air Canada Rouge 763. This route could easily move to 7M8 operation with Daily service year-round. Would free up a Rouge 763 frame and would be an overall increase in service spread over the entire year. Definitely a perfect route for the 7M8.


Samrnpage wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Samrnpage wrote:
There are better money making destinations they can send the 7M8 to before MAN.

Like what?

I agree that MAN would probably be the only realistic UK expansion for Air Canada (since all of the other airports listed by the OP have been on the significant decline for TATL flights), and with the 7M8, I think the opportunity is definitely there for MAN...


Loads, you have to think about the opportunity cost of opening a route like MAN with a 7M8 for Air Canada. Its possible but seeing as they have tried all the above before and now only MAN has seasonal rouge flights I think that they will focus elsewhere. Then again, they have recently announced Bordeaux 4x weekly with 7M8, so who knows.


One thing to remember is that MAN-YYZ is also served year-round by Air Transat, but I don't believe it's daily. Whether that has an impact on Air Canada's thinking I don't know, though I suppose TS caters more to the O&D markets whereas AC can also offer connectivity options in addition to those flying MAN-YYZ on an O&D basis.

It would be nice to see more of AC at MAN on the YYZ route (be it mainline or Rouge). Then again, it would also be nice to see more Canadian services because at this time the only other route to Canada from MAN is a seasonal YVR service with TS. There was also a seasonal MAN-YYC route operated by TS, but that was scrapped somewhat recently.

Skyblue39 wrote:
That’s not necessary. BHX passengers can transfer easily in Dublin to many North American destinations.


That might be true for US destinations, however in the case of Canada the only airline which they could transfer on via DUB is Aer Lingus, but even then that's only to YYZ (though YUL is starting next year). They could of course self-connect onto an Air Canada or WestJet flight or Norwegian from next year, but that approach comes with risk as they're basically stranded if they miss their connection at DUB for whatever reason. Some passengers might not want to chance that or might not think the risks involved is worthwhile.

Remember, LHR is about 100 miles or so down the road from BHX with direct flights to most of the major Canadian cities and some of the smaller cities within the Atlantic Canada provinces.
 
BTC
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:36 am

KLSMB wrote:
3293 miles
Daily
Already served seasonally multiple times weekly in the summer on Air Canada Rouge 763. Dowguaging to the 7M8 would allow for daily year-round service on the route, and would become the only daily service between Scotland and Canada. Glasgow has a strong economic base, major business community, and is a major year-round tourist destination. Fast rail connections to neighboring Edinburgh are frequent and convenient. While they are located quite near each other, Glasgow has a higher demand for government/business/entertainment traffic than Edinburgh, so the current seasonal AC Rouge YYZ-EDI service would compliment a new YYZ-GLA daily service nicely.


GLA is on the wrong side of Glasgow to be better than EDI for Edinburgh and the central/east of Scotland. Fast rail services to Edinburgh from Paisley? Nope.
Higher government traffic? Would like to see that, especially with the parliament in Edinburgh!
Flown in :- A319, A320, A321, A332, A359, BAC ATP, BAC-1-11, BAE146, B722, B732, B733, B734, B738, B744, B752, B762, B763, B772, B788, CS3, CRJ7, CRJ9, Dash 8, DC10, Dornier 328, E170, E190, HS 121 Trident, Shorts 360
 
by738
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:05 pm

I wonder why Air Canada Rouge started GLA after EDI rather than just expand there if its the bigger catch?
The VFR historical links are literally a dying breed for Scotland /Canada links so im not buying that as the only ties.
WestJet have investigated further routes at GLA and EDI but never any commitment. DY were rumoured to be considering EDI YHM and we know how that panned out.... Remember the old peak summer TS EDI double drops Think maybe just on a 757?
Status quo I think for now.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:27 pm

I can’t see any of these going year round. I could maybe see them going an extra month either side of present service. And possibly daily.

BFS and BHX won’t happen. Too close to DUB, and MAN and LHR respectively. I think last time these were operated by AC were charters or crown Corp days when somebody else was helping foot the bill.

As for VFR travellers, why on earth would you travel to these places outside the summer? Outside of burying ole Uncle Angus I couldn’t see a market to go to a place you’re more likely to catch a case of hypothermia than a suntan.

And if there was how cheap would the fare be to stimulate such a market? You want me to go to BFS in January, you’d better pull out your wallet. I’m sure they’d say the same about the great white north.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
digitalcloud
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:33 pm

by738 wrote:
I wonder why Air Canada Rouge started GLA after EDI rather than just expand there if its the bigger catch?
The VFR historical links are literally a dying breed for Scotland /Canada links so im not buying that as the only ties.
WestJet have investigated further routes at GLA and EDI but never any commitment. DY were rumoured to be considering EDI YHM and we know how that panned out.... Remember the old peak summer TS EDI double drops Think maybe just on a 757?
Status quo I think for now.


Think it was the A310 when it ended.

What we do know is that with Air Transat and Air Canada starting A321neo and 737 MAX ops respectively, there is more scope for Scotland-Canada flights. I would imagine the logical step would be to have WestJet transfer YYZ-YHZ-GLA onto the MAX.
 
fly2yyz
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:38 pm

As much as id love to see the 7M8 open new routes for AC out of YYZ, isn’t the problem more of gate space in YYZ esp at T1 on the international side? Hence the need for the RV763s rather than narrow bodies? I think you’d more likely see YUL-Europe or Canada-Star Alliance Hub instead.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:41 pm

If AC had the A321LR on order, perhaps. But that’s pushing it with an acceptable alternate on the MAX.
 
caribb
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:47 pm

I’d like to see YUL-MAN actually. Good connection possibilities on both ends.
 
caaardiff
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:59 pm

BFS, GLA and CWL (thrown into the mix as it's my local airport) were all previously served by Zoom. Only a couple of flights to BFS and CWL a week, and a CWL-BFS-YVR split flight as well. GLA I think was higher frequency to Canada.
BHX recently lost Air Transat and the route was to be taken over by Primera, and we all know how that went.

AC would be good for BHX on the 7M8 as I think TS were using an A330. AC could also offer decent connections in North America, something BHX is now lacking and crying out for after also losing UA.

CWL has a long history of flights to Canada and it's said the route was doing quite well for Zoom and attracted people from the Southwest of England as well as South Wales. With the SW of England being quite a wealthy catchment.
 
jfk777
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:59 pm

Air Transat covers Scotland and regional UK airports very well as well as Gatwick. Air Canada should use their new 737 Max planes closer to home, just because they can fly to UK doesn't mean they should. AC covers Heathrow very well using primarily with 787 & 777 airplanes with multiple flights daily from the main Canadian cities, the regional UK airports are a little sideline. Air Canada has so many flights to LHR Terminal sometimes looks like YYZ, they could have 20 flights daily in the summer at LHR. Stick to the core Business not the distraction, give that to the Charter airline, Transat I think its called.
 
Themotionman
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:43 pm

caaardiff wrote:
CWL has a long history of flights to Canada and it's said the route was doing quite well for Zoom and attracted people from the Southwest of England as well as South Wales. With the SW of England being quite a wealthy catchment.


Surely BRS would be better then...
 
beechnut
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:55 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
If AC had the A321LR on order, perhaps. But that’s pushing it with an acceptable alternate on the MAX.


Really? Range on the Max8 is given as 4045 miles as per the AC website. Air Canada started transatlantic jet ops with the DC8-43 in 1960 (YUL-LHR). AC's website lists its range as 3375 miles!!!

ETOPS might be a factor with respect to single-engine alternates though, but the MAX8 is a pretty capable aircraft, and is already being used transatlantic.

Beech
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:37 pm

Traffic from Canada to the UK outside London has been in a long-term decline, as the once-gigantic VFR traffic dwindles. The people who immigrated increasingly have either died or are too old to travel, and their kids and grandkids don't know their cousins back in the UK. That said, new aircraft types and YYZ dramatically expanded hub role may make certain routes possible that wouldn't have been before. Scotland and Northern England are also growing vacation destinations, which should help as well.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:08 pm

The best airport for NI is, was and always will be Dublin . AC know that , Air Transat know that , Westjet know that ... waste of time and resources flying into Belfast
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:24 am

jfk777 wrote:
Air Transat covers Scotland and regional UK airports very well as well as Gatwick. Air Canada should use their new 737 Max planes closer to home, just because they can fly to UK doesn't mean they should. AC covers Heathrow very well using primarily with 787 & 777 airplanes with multiple flights daily from the main Canadian cities, the regional UK airports are a little sideline. Air Canada has so many flights to LHR Terminal sometimes looks like YYZ, they could have 20 flights daily in the summer at LHR. Stick to the core Business not the distraction, give that to the Charter airline, Transat I think its called.


Excellent point. People on here think because an airplane has the range to do something that it should be doing it.

Damn the business case.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
Cunard
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:08 am

jfk777 wrote:
Air Transat covers Scotland and regional UK airports very well as well as Gatwick. Air Canada should use their new 737 Max planes closer to home, just because they can fly to UK doesn't mean they should. AC covers Heathrow very well using primarily with 787 & 777 airplanes with multiple flights daily from the main Canadian cities, the regional UK airports are a little sideline. Air Canada has so many flights to LHR Terminal sometimes looks like YYZ, they could have 20 flights daily in the summer at LHR. Stick to the core Business not the distraction, give that to the Charter airline, Transat I think its called.


I wouldn't necessarily say that Air Transat 'covers Scotland and regional airports very well' as you state although I do think that their coverage of the United Kingdom as in Gatwick, Manchester and Glasgow serving Scotland is quite adequate for the market it serves.

At one time Air Transat actually did cover Scotland and regional airports very well and over the years these airports have all been served included the following,

Birmingham BHX
Edinburgh EDI
Exeter EXT
Glasgow GLA
Prestwick PIK
London Gatwick LGW
London Heathrow LHR
London Stansted STN
Manchester MAN
Newcastle NCL

LGW, GLA, MAN are the only remaining UK gateways for Air Transat.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:32 am

jfk777 wrote:
Air Transat covers Scotland and regional UK airports very well as well as Gatwick. Air Canada should use their new 737 Max planes closer to home, just because they can fly to UK doesn't mean they should. AC covers Heathrow very well using primarily with 787 & 777 airplanes with multiple flights daily from the main Canadian cities, the regional UK airports are a little sideline. Air Canada has so many flights to LHR Terminal sometimes looks like YYZ, they could have 20 flights daily in the summer at LHR. Stick to the core Business not the distraction, give that to the Charter airline, Transat I think its called.

Air Canada LHR peak summer ‘18 was :
YYZ AC869 857 849 859 B77W
YUL AC865 B77W
YVR AC855 897 B789
YYC AC851 B789
YOW AC889 B763
YHZ AC861 B73M
YYT AC823 B73M

Eleven daily

Remember Scotland has one daily summer peak flight split between GLA/EDI at 3/4 weekly.
One thing that puzzles me is how Dublin manages to support both Air Canada, now an A330 and ex Rouge route as well as Aer Lingus year round whereas Scotland can’t come close. It’s not as if Air Canada out of LHR has bmi feeding it anymore out of the regions.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:22 am

jfk777 wrote:
Air Transat covers Scotland and regional UK airports very well as well as Gatwick. Air Canada should use their new 737 Max planes closer to home, just because they can fly to UK doesn't mean they should. AC covers Heathrow very well using primarily with 787 & 777 airplanes with multiple flights daily from the main Canadian cities, the regional UK airports are a little sideline. Air Canada has so many flights to LHR Terminal sometimes looks like YYZ, they could have 20 flights daily in the summer at LHR. Stick to the core Business not the distraction, give that to the Charter airline, Transat I think its called.


TS have shrunk to the UK quite a bit in the past 10 years. No more LGW-YHZ/YFC/YOW/YEG flights and now no more YYZ-BHX. Wonder whether any of these will come back as more 321LRs enter the fleet?

As for AC, I believe they max out at 11x daily ex-LHR in the summer with 4x YYZ, 2x YVR and 1x each to YYC, YOW, YUL, YHZ and YYT.

Zoom proved that there was lots more demand to the UK, especially Scotland with the likes of YHZ/YOW-GLA, than there is today. It's too bad Zoom got stupid and entered the UK-USA market while ignoring all the expansion possibilities they still had out of Canada.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:41 am

Airlines like Zoom make clear that the demand on these kinds of routes is extremely price-sensitive. If they can get a $500 round trip, plenty of people would be happy to go on a vacation to the UK, or go to visit relatives over there. For $1200, the interest drops off rapidly. It's like the recent Iceland vacation craze. With cheap WOW fares, plenty of people will make the trip. If it were a $1000 flight, tourism would be negligible. As an aside, it's a big problem for Canadian domestic tourism. A flight to YYT from Central Canada, for example, is often not that much less than a flight to Europe. Unsurprisingly, that means most people vacation in France or Portugal when they might have been happy going to Newfoundland.
 
armadillomaster
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Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:59 am

Cunard wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Air Transat covers Scotland and regional UK airports very well as well as Gatwick. Air Canada should use their new 737 Max planes closer to home, just because they can fly to UK doesn't mean they should. AC covers Heathrow very well using primarily with 787 & 777 airplanes with multiple flights daily from the main Canadian cities, the regional UK airports are a little sideline. Air Canada has so many flights to LHR Terminal sometimes looks like YYZ, they could have 20 flights daily in the summer at LHR. Stick to the core Business not the distraction, give that to the Charter airline, Transat I think its called.


I wouldn't necessarily say that Air Transat 'covers Scotland and regional airports very well' as you state although I do think that their coverage of the United Kingdom as in Gatwick, Manchester and Glasgow serving Scotland is quite adequate for the market it serves.

At one time Air Transat actually did cover Scotland and regional airports very well and over the years these airports have all been served included the following,

Birmingham BHX
Edinburgh EDI
Exeter EXT
Glasgow GLA
Prestwick PIK
London Gatwick LGW
London Heathrow LHR
London Stansted STN
Manchester MAN
Newcastle NCL

LGW, GLA, MAN are the only remaining UK gateways for Air Transat.


And at one time LBA- Leeds/Bradford
 
pdp
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:14 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:02 am

I'm not sure why everyone is discounting BHX. Most of the East Midlands would love TATL flights from there, as now the nearest flights are either Manchester or Heathrow. Neither of which are less than three hours from there.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:33 am

Dominion301 wrote:
TS have shrunk to the UK quite a bit in the past 10 years. No more LGW-YHZ/YFC/YOW/YEG flights and now no more YYZ-BHX. Wonder whether any of these will come back as more 321LRs enter the fleet?


UK to YEG is too far for the A321neoLR.

YYZLGA wrote:
Airlines like Zoom make clear that the demand on these kinds of routes is extremely price-sensitive. If they can get a $500 round trip, plenty of people would be happy to go on a vacation to the UK, or go to visit relatives over there. For $1200, the interest drops off rapidly. It's like the recent Iceland vacation craze. With cheap WOW fares, plenty of people will make the trip. If it were a $1000 flight, tourism would be negligible. As an aside, it's a big problem for Canadian domestic tourism. A flight to YYT from Central Canada, for example, is often not that much less than a flight to Europe. Unsurprisingly, that means most people vacation in France or Portugal when they might have been happy going to Newfoundland.


Similar here in the UK. Take the Isle of Man as an example. Many years ago it was a popular holiday destination, much like other seaside resorts in the UK, though with the advent of package holidays to places with more guaranteed weather that market has declined. You can get a reasonably-costed flight to IOM (I've been able to snap up return flights for around £50-£60 depending when you go), but when you factor in accommodation and other costs, it's just as cheap (or cheaper) to go abroad. The ferries cost somewhere in the £200-£300 region if you want to take a car.

It's a shame, because when the weather is really nice the Isle of Man is fantastic and really scenic, but I guess you can't blame people wanting to go abroad if weather is a key factor or if they see a foreign holiday as better value for money.

Galwayman wrote:
The best airport for NI is, was and always will be Dublin . AC know that , Air Transat know that , Westjet know that ... waste of time and resources flying into Belfast


I'm sure VS and the other airlines who fly to BFS but not DUB will be delighted to receive your letter telling them they're wasting their time serving BFS. :roll:
 
caaardiff
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:14 am

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:30 pm

Themotionman wrote:
caaardiff wrote:
CWL has a long history of flights to Canada and it's said the route was doing quite well for Zoom and attracted people from the Southwest of England as well as South Wales. With the SW of England being quite a wealthy catchment.


Surely BRS would be better then...



It would, but it would be questionable on the performance of the 737Max from the short runway.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 pm

I for one think that you’ll eventually see MAN and later on EDI year-round on the MAX with GLA being seasonal. The Rouge 767s that operate EDI and GLA are too big for the market and MAN is too big of a market to only have a seasonal presence in. AC woild greatly increase its yield with both business and leisure travellers by offering daily and year-round flights in that market, especially considering the small size of the aircraft. The UK is a big country to only serve through LHR in the winter.
 
eicvd
Posts: 1452
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:11 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:26 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
TS have shrunk to the UK quite a bit in the past 10 years. No more LGW-YHZ/YFC/YOW/YEG flights and now no more YYZ-BHX. Wonder whether any of these will come back as more 321LRs enter the fleet?


UK to YEG is too far for the A321neoLR.

YYZLGA wrote:
Airlines like Zoom make clear that the demand on these kinds of routes is extremely price-sensitive. If they can get a $500 round trip, plenty of people would be happy to go on a vacation to the UK, or go to visit relatives over there. For $1200, the interest drops off rapidly. It's like the recent Iceland vacation craze. With cheap WOW fares, plenty of people will make the trip. If it were a $1000 flight, tourism would be negligible. As an aside, it's a big problem for Canadian domestic tourism. A flight to YYT from Central Canada, for example, is often not that much less than a flight to Europe. Unsurprisingly, that means most people vacation in France or Portugal when they might have been happy going to Newfoundland.


Similar here in the UK. Take the Isle of Man as an example. Many years ago it was a popular holiday destination, much like other seaside resorts in the UK, though with the advent of package holidays to places with more guaranteed weather that market has declined. You can get a reasonably-costed flight to IOM (I've been able to snap up return flights for around £50-£60 depending when you go), but when you factor in accommodation and other costs, it's just as cheap (or cheaper) to go abroad. The ferries cost somewhere in the £200-£300 region if you want to take a car.

It's a shame, because when the weather is really nice the Isle of Man is fantastic and really scenic, but I guess you can't blame people wanting to go abroad if weather is a key factor or if they see a foreign holiday as better value for money.

Galwayman wrote:
The best airport for NI is, was and always will be Dublin . AC know that , Air Transat know that , Westjet know that ... waste of time and resources flying into Belfast


I'm sure VS and the other airlines who fly to BFS but not DUB will be delighted to receive your letter telling them they're wasting their time serving BFS. :roll:

The only airlines who serve BFS & not DUB are (other then VS with a few flights to Florida) are Easyjet & Jet2, hardly big names were missing here, Ryanair do their job perfectly
COYBIB
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:47 pm

caaardiff wrote:
BFS, GLA and CWL (thrown into the mix as it's my local airport) were all previously served by Zoom. Only a couple of flights to BFS and CWL a week, and a CWL-BFS-YVR split flight as well. GLA I think was higher frequency to Canada.


I remember dispatching those YVR-BFS-CWL-BFS-YVR flights :) Belfast has a long history of flights to Canada, with strong family connections between Ulster and in particular the Toronto area, but the range of flights out of Dublin, and lower prices makes it hard to secure a direct Canadian service these days (though BFS management are trying!!)

For the record, in 2008 there were upwards of 5 flights a week between BFS and Canada, with 2 Zoom 767s to YYZ, 1 to YVR, 1 Skyservice 757 to YYZ and a Globespan to YHM (also a 6th flight from ZAG-YYZ that fuel stopped every week)
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2894
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:44 pm

Thomaas wrote:
I for one think that you’ll eventually see MAN and later on EDI year-round on the MAX with GLA being seasonal. The Rouge 767s that operate EDI and GLA are too big for the market and MAN is too big of a market to only have a seasonal presence in. AC woild greatly increase its yield with both business and leisure travellers by offering daily and year-round flights in that market, especially considering the small size of the aircraft. The UK is a big country to only serve through LHR in the winter.


Maybe you’ll eventually see a Rouge summer, mainline (MAX) winter combo, at least to MAN. AC have employed that strategy elsewhere.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:22 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
I for one think that you’ll eventually see MAN and later on EDI year-round on the MAX with GLA being seasonal. The Rouge 767s that operate EDI and GLA are too big for the market and MAN is too big of a market to only have a seasonal presence in. AC woild greatly increase its yield with both business and leisure travellers by offering daily and year-round flights in that market, especially considering the small size of the aircraft. The UK is a big country to only serve through LHR in the winter.


Maybe you’ll eventually see a Rouge summer, mainline (MAX) winter combo, at least to MAN. AC have employed that strategy elsewhere.


I’m not aware of any routes where AC runs the Rouge and mainline products concurrently.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2894
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:49 am

Thomaas wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
I for one think that you’ll eventually see MAN and later on EDI year-round on the MAX with GLA being seasonal. The Rouge 767s that operate EDI and GLA are too big for the market and MAN is too big of a market to only have a seasonal presence in. AC woild greatly increase its yield with both business and leisure travellers by offering daily and year-round flights in that market, especially considering the small size of the aircraft. The UK is a big country to only serve through LHR in the winter.


Maybe you’ll eventually see a Rouge summer, mainline (MAX) winter combo, at least to MAN. AC have employed that strategy elsewhere.


I’m not aware of any routes where AC runs the Rouge and mainline products concurrently.


Concurrently this past summer AC ran both express and Rouge on YQB-YUL/YYZ. For the past two summers they’ve run Rouge on YYZ-YYJ and mainline in winter. They did Rouge this summer on YYG-YYZ and revert to AC Express this winter. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 692
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:02 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

Maybe you’ll eventually see a Rouge summer, mainline (MAX) winter combo, at least to MAN. AC have employed that strategy elsewhere.


I’m not aware of any routes where AC runs the Rouge and mainline products concurrently.


Concurrently this past summer AC ran both express and Rouge on YQB-YUL/YYZ. For the past two summers they’ve run Rouge on YYZ-YYJ and mainline in winter. They did Rouge this summer on YYG-YYZ and revert to AC Express this winter. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.


1) YQB-YUL/YYZ still has express flights because the smallest aircraft at Rouge is too big to offer the type of frequency needed on the route. Same does for YYG.

2) YYZ-YYJ has been exclusively Rouge since at least a year. This winter again there are no mainline flights on the route.
 
hollywoodcory
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:29 am

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:20 am

Thomaas wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
I for one think that you’ll eventually see MAN and later on EDI year-round on the MAX with GLA being seasonal. The Rouge 767s that operate EDI and GLA are too big for the market and MAN is too big of a market to only have a seasonal presence in. AC woild greatly increase its yield with both business and leisure travellers by offering daily and year-round flights in that market, especially considering the small size of the aircraft. The UK is a big country to only serve through LHR in the winter.


Maybe you’ll eventually see a Rouge summer, mainline (MAX) winter combo, at least to MAN. AC have employed that strategy elsewhere.


I’m not aware of any routes where AC runs the Rouge and mainline products concurrently.


Edit: Nevermind, miss-understood. My bad.
 
loonytoon44
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:43 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:50 am

I would LOVE to see Air Canada at Cardiff (CWL) or Bristol (BRS) if it means I get to avoid London or Amsterdam, but it is only a pipe dream.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1158
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:09 pm

I suspect any expansion by Air Canada in the U.K. is far more likely to be at LHR than anywhere else.

However, if they are to expand outside of London, the logical point of entry is MAN. Rouge are expanding, but the market is very seasonal and I suspect this has put off Air Canada. I don't think a MAX is a suitable aircraft for MAN-YYZ, an A330/B787 would be about right, but stranger things have happened.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2510
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Possibility of Air Canada expansion in the UK?

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:58 am

armadillomaster wrote:
Cunard wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Air Transat covers Scotland and regional UK airports very well as well as Gatwick. Air Canada should use their new 737 Max planes closer to home, just because they can fly to UK doesn't mean they should. AC covers Heathrow very well using primarily with 787 & 777 airplanes with multiple flights daily from the main Canadian cities, the regional UK airports are a little sideline. Air Canada has so many flights to LHR Terminal sometimes looks like YYZ, they could have 20 flights daily in the summer at LHR. Stick to the core Business not the distraction, give that to the Charter airline, Transat I think its called.


I wouldn't necessarily say that Air Transat 'covers Scotland and regional airports very well' as you state although I do think that their coverage of the United Kingdom as in Gatwick, Manchester and Glasgow serving Scotland is quite adequate for the market it serves.

At one time Air Transat actually did cover Scotland and regional airports very well and over the years these airports have all been served included the following,

Birmingham BHX
Edinburgh EDI
Exeter EXT
Glasgow GLA
Prestwick PIK
London Gatwick LGW
London Heathrow LHR
London Stansted STN
Manchester MAN
Newcastle NCL

LGW, GLA, MAN are the only remaining UK gateways for Air Transat.


And at one time LBA- Leeds/Bradford


There is a reason why Leeds/Bradford LBA was omitted from my list purely because Air Transat have never featured the airport in their U.K. operations.

I think that you might be getting the airline confused with Wardair who flew seasonal scheduled flights between LBA and YYZ for several seasons in the mid to late eighties with a mix of B747/DC1030.

In actual fact the first B747 to use LBA when the runway extension was completed in 1986 was a Wardair B747 which was shortly followed an hour later by a British Airways B747.
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