COA75
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United ends Hamburg for good

Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:42 pm

Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things :smile:

OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.

However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.

What are your thoughts on this?
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believeinflight
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:47 pm

Maybe Eurowings would step in and start TATL flights
 
ual763
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:03 pm

I too believe that Eurowings probably will step in and take over this route. With Eurowings being owned by Lufthansa, United already partners with Eurowings on connections.
Last edited by ual763 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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yeogeo
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:07 pm

Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?
 
N292UX
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:27 pm

Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:30 pm

Continental did a great job, they understood the HAM market.
The old 3 Cabin 767s destroyed a lot, together with almost regular several delays and cancellations, they scared away a lot of frequent flyers on the route in the recent years, they prefered to fly through FRA. As a result of this yields fell.

Instead of improving the offered product (3 class 767-300 (also unreliable but better cabin), 767-400, 757) they made the flight seasonal what made things even worse.
Hamburg is not like Berlin, we do not have so many US-tourists coming in the summer who dont care if the flight is offered in winter or not. The HAM-US market is Business and VFR heavy, both passenger categories not flying in summer only. They want flights over the whole year, Continental offered those with a good product and was sucessful for many many years.
By switching to 5,x months summer seasonal service United skipped the very strong months of March, April, October and December, but flew through the pretty poor month of June.

Also United does not have the best reputation here in Germany, following all the bad press recently, which is very obvious when you scroll though Facebook comments regarding United in Hamburg. Many people wrote they would never book United.

I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!

I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. The CEO talked about longhaul from HAM a few times already in the recent years but nothing happened. But I would like it of course! I dont think that Lufthansa want to loose their high yielding HAM-FRA/MUC-US pax to Nonstop flights from HAM, same in Berlin btw. Just look how many daily A321s are there on HAM/BER-FRA/MUC.
They just announced to increase HAM-MUC by 10/7 in S19 and HAM-DUS from 8 to up to 11 daily, with best connections to NY and the US, of course. :roll:

N292UX wrote:
Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....


If American knew earlier what happens now they maybe would have choosen HAM instead of TXL. HAM had more passengers to PHL than Berlin in 2017 and instead of chasing the Yields in Berlin against Delta and United they could have Hamburg to themselves.

yeogeo wrote:
Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?


I would put it in a box and send it to the United HQ ...
I think it will just remain where it is and continue operating at the small version of Hamburg Airport. This flight should work as it is still yearround. :spin:
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MIflyer12
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:47 pm

DLHAM wrote:
I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!


A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.
 
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ua900
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:04 am

COA75 wrote:
Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things :smile:

OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.

However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.

What are your thoughts on this?


What could the airport have said or done, something airline friendly like "let's make things better for United"? They clearly weren't about to.

First of all, you can forget about that parking zone in front of the terminal, your time spent trying to get to the counter (and not get run over on that little street in between) would almost always get you one of those lovely ten Euro tickets. Can't get the Hertz car back to the car rental when toting the standard business / elite traveler luggage of 3x 32kgs because HAM takes like 1/4 mile walk back from the facility to the terminal.

Secondly, the UA counter on the far side in the back right corner had people wrap around the building perimeter around the walls and back to the front entrance. Good luck trying to get through through security after that, no gold track, just the courtesy passes if your flight is departing too soon. Which it just might thanks to the long lines at the counter.

Lastly, given that you'll be late the LH Senator lounge won't do you any good, since you'll have to go all the way to the end of the terminal past two immigration officers (yup, two counters) and pass them too if you want to catch your UA flight there.

DLHAM wrote:
Continental did a great job, they understood the HAM market.
The old 3 Cabin 767s destroyed a lot, together with almost regular several delays and cancellations, they scared away a lot of frequent flyers on the route in the recent years, they prefered to fly through FRA. As a result of this yields fell.

Instead of improving the offered product (3 class 767-300 (also unreliable but better cabin), 767-400, 757) they made the flight seasonal what made things even worse.
Hamburg is not like Berlin, we do not have so many US-tourists coming in the summer who dont care if the flight is offered in winter or not. The HAM-US market is Business and VFR heavy, both passenger categories not flying in summer only. They want flights over the whole year, Continental offered those with a good product and was sucessful for many many years.
By switching to 5,x months summer seasonal service United skipped the very strong months of March, April, October and December, but flew through the pretty poor month of June.

Also United does not have the best reputation here in Germany, following all the bad press recently, which is very obvious when you scroll though Facebook comments regarding United in Hamburg. Many people wrote they would never book United.

I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!

I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. The CEO talked about longhaul from HAM a few times already in the recent years but nothing happened. But I would like it of course! I dont think that Lufthansa want to loose their high yielding HAM-FRA/MUC-US pax to Nonstop flights from HAM, same in Berlin btw. Just look how many daily A321s are there on HAM/BER-FRA/MUC.
They just announced to increase HAM-MUC by 10/7 in S19 and HAM-DUS from 8 to up to 11 daily, with best connections to NY and the US, of course. :roll:

N292UX wrote:
Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....


If American knew earlier what happens now they maybe would have choosen HAM instead of TXL. HAM had more passengers to PHL than Berlin in 2017 and instead of chasing the Yields in Berlin against Delta and United they could have Hamburg to themselves.

yeogeo wrote:
Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?


I would put it in a box and send it to the United HQ ...
I think it will just remain where it is and continue operating at the small version of Hamburg Airport. This flight should work as it is still yearround. :spin:


Not sure how the 752 CO product was any better than a UA 763. The cubbies seemed smaller on CO, but they were both flat beds. Either way, lots of other 752 routes to Europe either got canned or upgauged to the 763/4s, it just isn't sustainable anymore to fly these birds TATL when stretching their range to the limit, as much as I loved flying them. Service itself wasn't that great on CO under Smisek, and I think it has somewhat improved (morale too) under Oscar. I agree with you that HAM has way more locally based premium travelers than TXL, but at least TXL walk from car to gate is like 20 feet, and from there to the plane another 20 feet now that they don't use those godawful buses anymore. Gate also separates nicely better Business / First and Economy, even though boarding itself gets crowded in both places due to the small Euro-style gates.

What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better. FRA and MUC have their own F entrances with really kind security people, HAM doesn't even have a F/C lane, so we had to line up with the unwashed masses doing some LCC to Bumkpinville or PMI or whatever. I get that Europeans often don't want to acknowledge that, but if you want to fill your premium cabin you guys should hustle a bit. Even UA is using MB GLS inter-terminal transfers at EWR now, along with the helicopter transfers to the city. They are clearly learning from LH at FRA on the cars and from LH at MUC for the helicopters. HAM has yet to add that, so my guess is that Hamburgers will still go to FRA/MUC for LH as you say and everyone EW can go to DUS.
Last edited by ua900 on Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DLHAM
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:05 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.


I think Delta would do just fine with the 767-300, but it would have to be yearround to attract business travellers. 120.000 passengers annually between HAM and NYC.
Regarding HAM-JFK, with a restrained 130% increase of demand with the Nonstop plus a very restrained number of 30% connecting passengers (46% on United HAM-EWR) - minus 70% of the original demand because not all passengers would fly Delta - I get very reasonable loads, especially in months where a seasonal flight would not operate. Only Jan and Feb are poor, traditionally.

Note: these are 2017 numbers where United also operates EWR.

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DLHAM
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:13 am

ua900 wrote:
[
What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better. FRA and MUC have their own F entrances with really kind security people, HAM doesn't even have a F/C lane, so we had to line up with the unwashed masses doing some LCC to Bumkpinville or PMI or whatever.


There are two Fast Lane entries to security for C/F class and Status passengers.
You should write that to the airport, they really have a lot to improve.
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N649DL
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:19 am

COA75 wrote:
Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things :smile:

OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.

However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.

What are your thoughts on this?


This sucks, perhaps they feel it's best to push people to connect on LH in FRA instead. Although it was probably too long of a flight to reliably fly a 757 during the winter and probably too small of a market for a 763.

Times for TATL have changed since the CO days. Look how many British Isles and Scandinavian markets have been dropped out of EWR (or became seasonal) over the last few years. There's more money to be made domestically and/or to optimize the heavy hitter Euro markets like LHR and FRA.
 
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janders
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:30 am

Its the old story.

Just because there is a market in statistics and planes seem full especially in summers does not mean a market is profitable.

UA and its Atlatic JV partner LH certainly have plenty of data after years of experience to come to the conclusion they have regardless of arguments of locals members. Route clearly was a financial loser.
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Cointrin330
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:34 am

janders wrote:
Its the old story.

Just because there is a market in statistics and planes seem full especially in summers does not mean a market is profitable.

UA and its Atlatic JV partner LH certainly have plenty of data after years of experience to come to the conclusion they have regardless of arguments of locals members. Route clearly was a financial loser.


Former CO and UA TATL routes out of EWR now no longer operational: BRS, BFS, BHX, CGN, HAM, OSL, CPH and GLA now seasonal only.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:37 am

I'd be surprised if DL or EW doesn't consider this route. EW could do this on a W pattern---DUS-EWR-HAM-EWR-DUS with a Biz Class-equipped A333 or A343. If the OS B763s are given a refresh, maybe the route could be VIE-EWR-HAM-EWR-VIE, as a 300-passenger EW wide-body is probably too much plane. This is the long and thin route for which CO intended its 757-200s.
 
peterj324
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:42 am

Took the flight this summer and in was about 95% full in both directions. Most transatlantic flights are very nearly 100% full but 95% certainly isn't bad. Tickets 6 months in advance were dirt cheap for a summer transatlantic flight though. $720 roundtrip in July so yields may not have been great. Certainly a bummer to see it go.
 
master14225
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:53 am

Tbh I could see AC doing better with a YYZ-HAM route, then u got loads with both Canada and US bound pax. Also EWR is not the most convenient place for those who want to go to manhattan or long island.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:31 am

master14225 wrote:
Tbh I could see AC doing better with a YYZ-HAM route, then u got loads with both Canada and US bound pax. Also EWR is not the most convenient place for those who want to go to manhattan or long island.


However, EWR is likely where a slot is easiest to get as EWR is no longer slot-restricted. Recall that LH dropped Berlin because it couldn't get an appropriate slot...and EW from DUS on Days 1, 3, 4, 5, and 7 on the summer schedule sits at JFK for about 9 hours before returning. For this, I know LH wants the A321XLR, but this is a route that could be done on the A321LR if LH converts some of its A320neo order to the A321LR in a J18Y182 configuration for approximately 8 planes, which could be used for FRA-PNQ (return tech stop at GYD) - requiring 1 plane, and HAM (year-round) and TXL/STR (seasonal; TXL daily and STR 3x weekly) to EWR, requiring 2 planes (plus a third shared with PNQ with a short ferry flight between FRA and STR. It would be easier and cheaper to fly a 200-seat plane at 97t than a 300-seat plane at 233t or 271t. (The demonstration flight for the A321LR was XFW to JFK.)

On all of these, JFK would be the primary alternate and PHL the secondary.

As for YYZ to HAM - that may fill a mainline 767, but AC's mainline 767s (and some of the rouge 767s), inherited from the merger with CP, are ancient, with the planes approaching or having reached 30 years old (6 are left - the oldest is 30.5 years), and the 737 MAX 8s, with a range of 3550 nmi, cannot be legally dispatched on the return trip without a planned fuel stop.
 
ual763
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:32 am

master14225 wrote:
Tbh I could see AC doing better with a YYZ-HAM route, then u got loads with both Canada and US bound pax. Also EWR is not the most convenient place for those who want to go to manhattan or long island.


It takes just as long, if not shorter to get to Manhattan from EWR as it does from JFK. Now, Long Island, yes, JFK is obviously shorter.
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tpaewr
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:20 am

ua900 wrote:
COA75 wrote:
Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things :smile:

OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.

However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.

What are your thoughts on this?


What could the airport have said or done, something airline friendly like "let's make things better for United"? They clearly weren't about to.

First of all, you can forget about that parking zone in front of the terminal, your time spent trying to get to the counter (and not get run over on that little street in between) would almost always get you one of those lovely ten Euro tickets. Can't get the Hertz car back to the car rental when toting the standard business / elite traveler luggage of 3x 32kgs because HAM takes like 1/4 mile walk back from the facility to the terminal.

Secondly, the UA counter on the far side in the back right corner had people wrap around the building perimeter around the walls and back to the front entrance. Good luck trying to get through through security after that, no gold track, just the courtesy passes if your flight is departing too soon. Which it just might thanks to the long lines at the counter.

Lastly, given that you'll be late the LH Senator lounge won't do you any good, since you'll have to go all the way to the end of the terminal past two immigration officers (yup, two counters) and pass them too if you want to catch your UA flight there.

DLHAM wrote:
Continental did a great job, they understood the HAM market.
The old 3 Cabin 767s destroyed a lot, together with almost regular several delays and cancellations, they scared away a lot of frequent flyers on the route in the recent years, they prefered to fly through FRA. As a result of this yields fell.

Instead of improving the offered product (3 class 767-300 (also unreliable but better cabin), 767-400, 757) they made the flight seasonal what made things even worse.
Hamburg is not like Berlin, we do not have so many US-tourists coming in the summer who dont care if the flight is offered in winter or not. The HAM-US market is Business and VFR heavy, both passenger categories not flying in summer only. They want flights over the whole year, Continental offered those with a good product and was sucessful for many many years.
By switching to 5,x months summer seasonal service United skipped the very strong months of March, April, October and December, but flew through the pretty poor month of June.

Also United does not have the best reputation here in Germany, following all the bad press recently, which is very obvious when you scroll though Facebook comments regarding United in Hamburg. Many people wrote they would never book United.

I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!

I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. The CEO talked about longhaul from HAM a few times already in the recent years but nothing happened. But I would like it of course! I dont think that Lufthansa want to loose their high yielding HAM-FRA/MUC-US pax to Nonstop flights from HAM, same in Berlin btw. Just look how many daily A321s are there on HAM/BER-FRA/MUC.
They just announced to increase HAM-MUC by 10/7 in S19 and HAM-DUS from 8 to up to 11 daily, with best connections to NY and the US, of course. :roll:

N292UX wrote:
Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....


If American knew earlier what happens now they maybe would have choosen HAM instead of TXL. HAM had more passengers to PHL than Berlin in 2017 and instead of chasing the Yields in Berlin against Delta and United they could have Hamburg to themselves.

yeogeo wrote:
Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?


I would put it in a box and send it to the United HQ ...
I think it will just remain where it is and continue operating at the small version of Hamburg Airport. This flight should work as it is still yearround. :spin:


Not sure how the 752 CO product was any better than a UA 763. The cubbies seemed smaller on CO, but they were both flat beds. Either way, lots of other 752 routes to Europe either got canned or upgauged to the 763/4s, it just isn't sustainable anymore to fly these birds TATL when stretching their range to the limit, as much as I loved flying them. Service itself wasn't that great on CO under Smisek, and I think it has somewhat improved (morale too) under Oscar. I agree with you that HAM has way more locally based premium travelers than TXL, but at least TXL walk from car to gate is like 20 feet, and from there to the plane another 20 feet now that they don't use those godawful buses anymore. Gate also separates nicely better Business / First and Economy, even though boarding itself gets crowded in both places due to the small Euro-style gates.

What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better. FRA and MUC have their own F entrances with really kind security people, HAM doesn't even have a F/C lane, so we had to line up with the unwashed masses doing some LCC to Bumkpinville or PMI or whatever. I get that Europeans often don't want to acknowledge that, but if you want to fill your premium cabin you guys should hustle a bit. Even UA is using MB GLS inter-terminal transfers at EWR now, along with the helicopter transfers to the city. They are clearly learning from LH at FRA on the cars and from LH at MUC for the helicopters. HAM has yet to add that, so my guess is that Hamburgers will still go to FRA/MUC for LH as you say and everyone EW can go to DUS.



I think the point is comparing success of pre-Smisek CO by offering a consistent year round quality product that business traffic could rely on.

In the cost cutting world of Smisek (which may have happened even with out the merger) UA lost all this, but offering a product better suited to summer time vacation traffic.

And yes premerger 757-224 vastly better experience nose to tail than the battered condition of the poor aging 767-322. Anyone that has flown both as they were BEFORE Smisek can tell you this.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:51 am

janders wrote:
Its the old story.

Just because there is a market in statistics and planes seem full especially in summers does not mean a market is profitable.

UA and its Atlatic JV partner LH certainly have plenty of data after years of experience to come to the conclusion they have regardless of arguments of locals members. Route clearly was a financial loser.


So they operated the route losing money for 13 years? They even said that the financials of the route were not meeting their expectations lately. No loss, just not as promised. The reasons for that are already written above.
So there is clearly a market and I am sure that sooner or later an other Airline will take advantage of it.

Also keep in mind that the 767s are still in cabin mod so not all available, and they dont want to fly the 757 to Central Europe anymore. Could be a factor too, ONE factor.
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debonair
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:14 am

ua900 wrote:
I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. ...

What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better.


True, EW will use DUS as hub for their longhaul product - their is no need for a separate HAM-"USA" route. Also, their A330/340's are too big for the market and as the longhaul a/c's are operated by XG/SN none of these companies have a crew base in HAM.

Not true! HAM offered for UA connecting passengers the ultimate "VIP" service. Right after leaving the a/c on arrival, passengers were greeted by staff and boarder police and escorted through a back door straight to the departure level. The hole immigration process for transfer passengers took less one minute!

BTW. you were complaining about the layout of UA counters and lounges; long walking distances etc.! Absolutely true, but you should address this to Mr. Trump's Department of Homeland Security. In accordance with their "anti-terror" strategy, HAM had to fullfill these requirements - like channelling passengers through dedicated and especial equipped security check-points (making fast track impossible) etc.!
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:50 am

Not sure why some take the cut personally or believe its some grave mistake.

Clearly the route was under performing and UA did not see a path to improvement. For all we know its been struggling for years and maybe they have tried many things in the background.

The days of U.S airlines carrying marginal or loss making routes are largely over - look at how AA has chopped high profile ORD-Asia flying.

If HAM was such a wonderful market UA would not be walking away from it, and others would have discovered its greatness also.
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mercure1
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:59 am

HAM to me seems more suitable for Trans Atlantic links on someone like Wow or now defunct Primara Air.
I dont even see Eurowings due to their aircraft sizing.

Who knows maybe someone will venture in with summer only service but I think it might take the wide adoption of types like A321LR for secondary markets to be successfully served especially off season.
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MIflyer12
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:00 am

DLHAM wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.


I think Delta would do just fine with the 767-300, but it would have to be yearround to attract business travellers. 120.000 passengers annually between HAM and NYC.
Regarding HAM-JFK, with a restrained 130% increase of demand with the Nonstop plus a very restrained number of 30% connecting passengers (46% on United HAM-EWR) - minus 70% of the original demand because not all passengers would fly Delta - I get very reasonable loads, especially in months where a seasonal flight would not operate. Only Jan and Feb are poor, traditionally.


It didn't work for UA at EWR, which traditionally has a higher share of connecting passengers than JFK (with its poorer domestic connection set), but it's going to work for Delta? You're in denial. Stay away from Revenue Management - you'll burn shareholder value on sentimental, low-value routes.
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:08 am

ua900 wrote:
COA75 wrote:
Longtime follower, first post so apologies for any unintended stupid things :smile:

OAG and German newspaper Hamburger Abendblatt just confirmed that United has left Hamburg for good and will not resume the EWR flight next year. I don't want to start a discussion on why UA leaves, this has been discussed countless times and for sure they see a greater economic benefit for the aircraft on another route.

However what puzzles me is that in all the years of Continental and later United gradually ending this route by reducing frequency and making the flight seasonal I am shocked that the airport never made a public statement that they were fighting to keep their precious long haul. All I ever read in press releases or social media is Emirates (the other long haul service) but hardly anything about United.

What are your thoughts on this?


What could the airport have said or done, something airline friendly like "let's make things better for United"? They clearly weren't about to.

First of all, you can forget about that parking zone in front of the terminal, your time spent trying to get to the counter (and not get run over on that little street in between) would almost always get you one of those lovely ten Euro tickets. Can't get the Hertz car back to the car rental when toting the standard business / elite traveler luggage of 3x 32kgs because HAM takes like 1/4 mile walk back from the facility to the terminal.

Secondly, the UA counter on the far side in the back right corner had people wrap around the building perimeter around the walls and back to the front entrance. Good luck trying to get through through security after that, no gold track, just the courtesy passes if your flight is departing too soon. Which it just might thanks to the long lines at the counter.

Lastly, given that you'll be late the LH Senator lounge won't do you any good, since you'll have to go all the way to the end of the terminal past two immigration officers (yup, two counters) and pass them too if you want to catch your UA flight there.

DLHAM wrote:
Continental did a great job, they understood the HAM market.
The old 3 Cabin 767s destroyed a lot, together with almost regular several delays and cancellations, they scared away a lot of frequent flyers on the route in the recent years, they prefered to fly through FRA. As a result of this yields fell.

Instead of improving the offered product (3 class 767-300 (also unreliable but better cabin), 767-400, 757) they made the flight seasonal what made things even worse.
Hamburg is not like Berlin, we do not have so many US-tourists coming in the summer who dont care if the flight is offered in winter or not. The HAM-US market is Business and VFR heavy, both passenger categories not flying in summer only. They want flights over the whole year, Continental offered those with a good product and was sucessful for many many years.
By switching to 5,x months summer seasonal service United skipped the very strong months of March, April, October and December, but flew through the pretty poor month of June.

Also United does not have the best reputation here in Germany, following all the bad press recently, which is very obvious when you scroll though Facebook comments regarding United in Hamburg. Many people wrote they would never book United.

I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!

I dont see Eurowings flying HAM to the US, even though HAM-JFK, HAM-MIA and HAM-LAX and -SFO have high demand. The CEO talked about longhaul from HAM a few times already in the recent years but nothing happened. But I would like it of course! I dont think that Lufthansa want to loose their high yielding HAM-FRA/MUC-US pax to Nonstop flights from HAM, same in Berlin btw. Just look how many daily A321s are there on HAM/BER-FRA/MUC.
They just announced to increase HAM-MUC by 10/7 in S19 and HAM-DUS from 8 to up to 11 daily, with best connections to NY and the US, of course. :roll:

N292UX wrote:
Sucks to see this. But who knows, with the interesting international routes AA is launching from PHL, maybe one will land on HAM. I doubt it as they seem to struggle mightily in Germany, and within a few months, they will not be serving any German destinations. So I highly doubt that one, but who knows....


If American knew earlier what happens now they maybe would have choosen HAM instead of TXL. HAM had more passengers to PHL than Berlin in 2017 and instead of chasing the Yields in Berlin against Delta and United they could have Hamburg to themselves.

yeogeo wrote:
Sucks. Now what are they going to do with the United 757 at Miniatur Wunderland airport?


I would put it in a box and send it to the United HQ ...
I think it will just remain where it is and continue operating at the small version of Hamburg Airport. This flight should work as it is still yearround. :spin:


Not sure how the 752 CO product was any better than a UA 763. The cubbies seemed smaller on CO, but they were both flat beds. Either way, lots of other 752 routes to Europe either got canned or upgauged to the 763/4s, it just isn't sustainable anymore to fly these birds TATL when stretching their range to the limit, as much as I loved flying them. Service itself wasn't that great on CO under Smisek, and I think it has somewhat improved (morale too) under Oscar. I agree with you that HAM has way more locally based premium travelers than TXL, but at least TXL walk from car to gate is like 20 feet, and from there to the plane another 20 feet now that they don't use those godawful buses anymore. Gate also separates nicely better Business / First and Economy, even though boarding itself gets crowded in both places due to the small Euro-style gates.

What HAM could really use is better separation of the classes. I get that the airport's bread and butter are EU flights and that most of these are LCCs, but if y'all want to attract more of us you should cater to us better. FRA and MUC have their own F entrances with really kind security people, HAM doesn't even have a F/C lane, so we had to line up with the unwashed masses doing some LCC to Bumkpinville or PMI or whatever. I get that Europeans often don't want to acknowledge that, but if you want to fill your premium cabin you guys should hustle a bit. Even UA is using MB GLS inter-terminal transfers at EWR now, along with the helicopter transfers to the city. They are clearly learning from LH at FRA on the cars and from LH at MUC for the helicopters. HAM has yet to add that, so my guess is that Hamburgers will still go to FRA/MUC for LH as you say and everyone EW can go to DUS.


I just passed through HAM (not on the way to or from the USA) and all United passengers could according to the signs use the fast track through the security, the signs seemed to be permanent set up.

Regarding lounges, there are not enough flights to set up a lounge behind the passport control. I have used the Emirates lounge a bit and had never problems with passport control due to "traffic congestion" on the way to the flight
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:15 am

Sad for HAM airport. Hamburg is Germany's second largest city with a healthy economy. It is strange that no direct flights to the US will exist in the future.

I remember back when Lufthansa flew A310-300's to JFK from Hamburg. If Lufthansa will resume any long-haul services from HAM, it will be with Eurowings since LH use their own metal only out of FRA or MUC.

You would think there would be market for TATL flights. I know Emirates did a DXB-HAM-JFK flight for a while , but it was dropped.

Although a wonderful airport, I guess HAM will be used through connections only. LH through FRA or MUC, SK through CPH or KL through AMS, but one can hope........
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:38 am

OSL777FLYER wrote:
I remember back when Lufthansa flew A310-300's to JFK from Hamburg. If Lufthansa will resume any long-haul services from HAM, it will be with Eurowings since LH use their own metal only out of FRA or MUC.

You would think there would be market for TATL flights. I know Emirates did a DXB-HAM-JFK flight for a while , but it was dropped.


Lufthansa did HAM-EWR with the A310, to JFK there were Pam Am, Delta, American, LTU, Emirates and Lufthansa in ea earlier 707 days. EWR was also served by NWA via CPH. Also there were NWA to MSP via LGW, Lufthansa and LTU to Miami and Delta served ATL-HAM for many many years. I am sure I forgot about some flights.

PanAm even used to fly JFK-HAM on their First Class Stratocruisers. Link

In the other direction, the Hamburg - Tokyo route was operated by both JAL and Lufthansa for more than 30 years from the early 60s into the 90s. Air France operated that route, coming from Paris, for around 15 years in the 60s and 70s.
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SRQKEF
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:51 am

OSL777FLYER wrote:
Sad for HAM airport. Hamburg is Germany's second largest city with a healthy economy. It is strange that no direct flights to the US will exist in the future.

I remember back when Lufthansa flew A310-300's to JFK from Hamburg. If Lufthansa will resume any long-haul services from HAM, it will be with Eurowings since LH use their own metal only out of FRA or MUC.

You would think there would be market for TATL flights. I know Emirates did a DXB-HAM-JFK flight for a while , but it was dropped.

Although a wonderful airport, I guess HAM will be used through connections only. LH through FRA or MUC, SK through CPH or KL through AMS, but one can hope........


Don't forget FI through KEF, that route has been consistently growing in recent years and offers easy connections to 20+ destinations on the other side of the Atlantic.
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:52 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!


A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.



I thought I read on here some time ago that DL doesnt have the range issues that UA does on the 757's that fly TATL primarily due to the diffenent engies that are used.
 
codc10
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:19 pm

HAM was one of the longtime 757 markets which struggled in the winter against headwinds, so was upgauged to 767, then converted to seasonal, and didn’t do well enough (after two seasons) to justify the equipment for another year. Underscoring the lack of performance is the fact that the Atlantic, as you’ll hear on tomorrow’s call, is currently doing very well for UA. It’s a matter of deploying assets to other/new summer-seasonal routes that can generate better numbers. HAM isn’t exactly a market where American travelers are spending a premium to take their summer vacations, and with a stronger economy and higher consumer spending, that segment is suddenly more lucrative than it has been at any other time in a decade. Conversely, German-originating leisure travelers have lots of options, too. HAM was never about targeting the vacation market, and losing year-round service sort of cut against that philosophy, but a daily wintertime 767 was probably more than the local market could handle.

UA will be in the midst of its 2-cabin 767-300ER Polaris mods next summer, as well, so the fleet will have a few more aircraft out of service than usual.

A 3-cabin 767 was relatively rare on EWRHAM. The objective always was to keep 2-cabin service on the route, and 30 (29 saleable) business class seats was a lot for the market.

jumbojet wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DLHAM wrote:
I think Delta should really think about returning to Hamburg. They are far better IMO and have a better reputation here.
They can choose between ATL-HAM and JFK-HAM now without any direct competition on either Route, both have big potential and should easily work. Also, Continental Airlines showed that a non-Star Alliance Airline can be sucessful at secondary german airports!


A Delta 757 would have the same range problems UA 757s did in winter. I don't think they'd be thrilled about blocking 20 seats through the winter, nor running a 763 through the winter.



I thought I read on here some time ago that DL doesnt have the range issues that UA does on the 757's that fly TATL primarily due to the diffenent engies that are used.


This is true... the ex-TW 752s with PW engines have slightly longer legs than the RR birds.

Immaterial, though, because both DL and UA are earning better returns on domestic premium routes with flat-bed equipped 757s than they otherwise would on long, thin, marginal TATL routes that more often operate at a loss or, at best, a slim profit.
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:41 pm

I was just thinking about this---but what about B6 if they get the A321LR and have TATL ambitions? They obviously can't immediately break into primary Europe, but they could do secondary destinations with strong brand recognition in the USA...such as HAM and DUS year-round (taking Eurowings head-on in the latter case with an aircraft that carries 2/3 the passengers at just 1/3 of the MTOW), and STR and BER (seasonally) in Germany, and a much better product than LH or UA offer across the Atlantic (I'm not expanding past Germany for this topic). I have to wonder if it's now feasible for B6 to consider up-gauging its entire A321neo order to the A321LR.

Another entity to watch here could be Norwegian...they have 30 A321LRs on order through their own leasing division that they will likely operate themselves instead of offering for dry lease---could secondary Germany (and secondary France, and other places where a wide-body would be too big) be a desire for them too? This is where it could be B6 versus DY/D8 on who pounces first.

Currently, HAM to North America is available on FI seasonally, 4x weekly on a mix of Boeing 757-200 and Boeing 737 MAX 8 equipment

The funny thing about Germany is, their largest cities by primary airports are, in order:

BER/TXL
HAM
MUC
CGN
FRA

But it's Frankfurt and Munich that are the economic capitals of Germany. (Dusseldorf is the 9th-largest city, but Germany's fashion capital.)
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:43 pm

The 3 cabin 767s flew to HAM from October 2015 until late March 2016 and through half the 2017 summer season.
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WIederling
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:44 pm

Strange coincidence: HAM just finished getting "A380 comfy fitting" ready and added a third jetway to one gate.
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freakyrat
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:45 pm

I've flown this route once on UA connecting in EWR from DFW. I've also flown the AA/BA combination connecting at LHR. I was set to fly the route on UA again 2 years ago but UA made the route seasonal and rebooked me out of DFW On LH to FRA and then HAM. The Verdict: I prefer LH hands down when flying to HAM. The connections and Customs cleaance is easy at FRA and I prefer the A330 above any other aircraft for TATL.
 
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keesje
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:01 pm

Maybe if they can reduce costs in the future it will become viable again.

The 757 / 767 getting old & expensive / not being right sized.

A real lean and mean Boeing NMA, A321XLR could change the balance.

Image

I can see United place an NMA / A321XLR order at the same day, because they need bigger & smaller, short and medium term solutions.
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:07 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I was just thinking about this---but what about B6 if they get the A321LR and have TATL ambitions? They obviously can't immediately break into primary Europe, but they could do secondary destinations with strong brand recognition in the USA [...]

Literally nobody in Germany has ever heard of JetBlue. They'd need a ton of advertising and lots of patience to eventually succeed. Much easier to get a foot in already proven routes to create a public image first.
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Another entity to watch here could be Norwegian...they have 30 A321LRs on order through their own leasing division that they will likely operate themselves instead of offering for dry lease---could secondary Germany (and secondary France, and other places where a wide-body would be too big) be a desire for them too? This is where it could be B6 versus DY/D8 on who pounces first.

The number of viable US destinations within the range of the A321 from secondary German or French markets is tiny. Actually, probably none except NYC and BOS. They'd also lack feed on both ends and I'm not sure if they can get the neccessary yield.
I'd expect much better results using low-frequency flights to popular tourist destinations with their 787 fleet. Florida, California, etc.
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:46 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Literally nobody in Germany has ever heard of JetBlue. They'd need a ton of advertising and lots of patience to eventually succeed.


Is that valid?

In times of ticket search sites and meta^n search sites and other derivatives is that still a holdback?
IMU you only need being listed at a search site or two.
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konkret
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:14 pm

JetBlue is not a well known brand among German general public, but among those who are likely to travel to the US definitely more so.
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:15 pm

ual763 wrote:
[It takes just as long, if not shorter to get to Manhattan from EWR as it does from JFK. Now, Long Island, yes, JFK is obviously shorter.


Your statement is factually incorrect. I have said it many times before that it all depends on where in Manhattan you are. The east side of Manhattan will usually be a much quicker ride to JFK. Conversely speaking, the west side of Manhattan will be fastest to EWR. The other borough's, while not as signifcant a financial driver as Manhattan, all lean towards JFK being the quickest and easiest to get to.
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:29 pm

WIederling wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Literally nobody in Germany has ever heard of JetBlue. They'd need a ton of advertising and lots of patience to eventually succeed.


Is that valid?

In times of ticket search sites and meta^n search sites and other derivatives is that still a holdback?
IMU you only need being listed at a search site or two.

In my experience, corporate travel agencies prefer to book airlines that they know and that have worked well in the past. They also tend to not really look at LCC, at least for itineraries that involve changing flights.
In the past, Airberlin never showed up among the suggested flights. Neither does Eurowings nowadays.
 
Interflug74
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:58 pm

Its valid. If not Flight 292 happend, literrally no one had ever heard of them. It was covered in the media. But 95%, i guess, had to google who they are, including myself
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:07 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Currently, HAM to North America is available on FI seasonally, 4x weekly on a mix of Boeing 757-200 and Boeing 737 MAX 8 equipment


From this year Icelandair increased the HAM service to yearround, flying though the winter 4 times a week I think -- summer was daily.
Next summer the Service will be upgraded to 10 weekly adding another departure in the afternoon on 3 days a week.

About 40-50% of the Icelandair passengers usually connect to North America -- most of them to NYC, BOS, ORD and YYZ. Of course they benefit from the Situation in HAM, as well AS Lufthansa, Eurowings, AF/KL, BA etc etc. Lufthansa increases MUC and DUS, Air France increases CDG, Icelandair increases KEF, BA increased LHR, Aer Lingus increased DUB to up to two daily. Thats a lot of capacity, these flights live from US-Passengers in large parts.
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FlyingSicilian
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:06 pm

jumbojet wrote:
ual763 wrote:
[It takes just as long, if not shorter to get to Manhattan from EWR as it does from JFK. Now, Long Island, yes, JFK is obviously shorter.


Your statement is factually incorrect. I have said it many times before that it all depends on where in Manhattan you are. The east side of Manhattan will usually be a much quicker ride to JFK. Conversely speaking, the west side of Manhattan will be fastest to EWR. The other borough's, while not as signifcant a financial driver as Manhattan, all lean towards JFK being the quickest and easiest to get to.


Having lived in Richmond County aka Staten Island for a time, that is not true. EWR was always my go to. But Bronx, Br and Queens, yes of course.
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YYZLGA
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:34 pm

It shocks me how limited long-haul flying is from German cities other than FRA and MUC. I compare it with Canada, where cities like YOW, YHZ, YEG all have long-haul flights even though they're far smaller than HAM.
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:40 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
It shocks me how limited long-haul flying is from German cities other than FRA and MUC. I compare it with Canada, where cities like YOW, YHZ, YEG all have long-haul flights even though they're far smaller than HAM.


High Speed Rail and Roads. ... and a thick carpet of Nimbys everywhere. :-)
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C010T3
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:15 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
It shocks me how limited long-haul flying is from German cities other than FRA and MUC. I compare it with Canada, where cities like YOW, YHZ, YEG all have long-haul flights even though they're far smaller than HAM.


You shouldn't, since North America does not have the coverage of intercontinental hubs that Europe has. HAM leaks to AMS, ARN, BEG, BRU, CDG, CPH, DUB, FRA, HEL, IST, KEF, LHR, LIS, MAD, MUC, OSL, PRG, SVO, VIE, WAW and ZRH.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:50 pm

WIederling wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
It shocks me how limited long-haul flying is from German cities other than FRA and MUC. I compare it with Canada, where cities like YOW, YHZ, YEG all have long-haul flights even though they're far smaller than HAM.


High Speed Rail and Roads. ... and a thick carpet of Nimbys everywhere. :-)


Makes sense! Although, high-speed rail in Germany isn't nearly as good for those types of trips as in France, for example. Hamburg-FRA by rail is 4 hours, while Lyon-CDG (similar distance) is 2 hours. I doubt that many people from HAM are connecting to international flights at FRA by rail, compared with the numbers connecting from Lyon by rail to CDG.

Fair point about number of hubs, though YOW could certainly reasonably connect through YUL, YYZ, EWR, PHL, DTW, ORD...certainly no shortage of options.
 
COA75
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:00 pm

Thanks for the lively discussion! I don't think that B6 would have such a bad start especially in Germany. Knowing that Germans love to save where they can, there should not be an issue to full the flights. Unfortunately those passengers are not the ones making a flight profitable...
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LH779
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:15 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
Hamburg-FRA by rail is 4 hours, while Lyon-CDG (similar distance) is 2 hours. I doubt that many people from HAM are connecting to international flights at FRA by rail, compared with the numbers connecting from Lyon by rail to CDG.


Apart from the generally higher speed in France (usually more than 300km/h) the TGV only stops once between Lyon and CDG and that stop is very close to CDG. The ICE from Hamburg to FRA stops in Hannover, Göttingen, Kassel and has to change direction in Frankfurt. On top of that the max speed isn't as high as the one of the TGV line.
 
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Re: United ends Hamburg for good

Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:18 pm

LH779 wrote:
Apart from the generally higher speed in France (usually more than 300km/h) the TGV only stops once between Lyon and CDG and that stop is very close to CDG. The ICE from Hamburg to FRA stops in Hannover, Göttingen, Kassel and has to change direction in Frankfurt. On top of that the max speed isn't as high as the one of the TGV line.


and it is 3h20min... not 4h.
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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos