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Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:12 pm
by timz
Not much to go by

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP ... dLN3BwQmdR

Wondered if it was Baltimore, but looks like BAL didn't get many National DC-7s. Why is the crewman standing on the wing at the R edge of the pic?

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:34 pm
by tjwgrr
Your link does not work- at least for me.

Edit:
Works in IE, but not Firefox.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:44 pm
by Rhodylee
are those palm trees in the back ?

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:55 pm
by crownvic
Im going with either Tampa or WPBeach. Is the pilot standing on the wing or is it an illusion?

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:10 pm
by SpaceshipDC10
Can't it be at that airport that's long gone near where DFW is now?

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:16 pm
by Bobloblaw
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Can't it be at that airport that's long gone near where DFW is now?



No, NA and EA didnt serve GSW in 1960 if ever.


The clue is EA is pretty big there with multiple flights including an Electra. Does look too tropical like Florida. It could be ORL perhaps.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:40 pm
by readytotaxi
crownvic wrote:
Im going with either Tampa or WPBeach. Is the pilot standing on the wing or is it an illusion?

A closer look and yes he is stood on the wing. :)

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:06 pm
by sparky35805
Looks like JAX.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:07 pm
by sparky35805
Looks like JAX.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:24 pm
by timz
If it's Imeson, we're looking NNE?

Probably too much empty space on the left side of the pic for that.

How about New Orleans?

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:43 pm
by FlyingSicilian
I was thinking New Orleans or Houston as I thought they were pine trees, but my contacts are going bad LOL

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:26 am
by klm617
How about Boston ?

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:53 am
by atpg5
Is crewman supervising fueler?

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:10 am
by crownvic
klm617 wrote:
How about Boston ?


yes we have a winner....Boston..especially with the Palm Tree in the picture...

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:42 am
by Beechtobus
Bobloblaw wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Can't it be at that airport that's long gone near where DFW is now?



No, NA and EA didnt serve GSW in 1960 if ever.


The clue is EA is pretty big there with multiple flights including an Electra. Does look too tropical like Florida. It could be ORL perhaps.


I’m guessing ORL didn’t see that much action at one time pre-Disneyworld.

Way too sparsely populated to be BOS, even in the late 50s-early 60s.

I’m going to have to go with Jacksonvilles old Imeson Field. Large Eastern presence with National also serving the airport, sparse population and similar vegetation that is found in the Jacksonville area.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:43 am
by highflier92660
Good sleuthing timz. It had to have been after Eastern Airlines' 1959 introduction of the Lockheed L-188 Electra and at an airport they scheduled their Martin 404 fleet. National Airlines was was flying four DC-7Bs in the 1959-60 time frame to slightly smaller markets after introducing jet service in 1959. As for the airport, note the pier and the trees on the airport boundary suggest an airport in the Mid-Atlantic states and not in Florida. The only mystery is where there was a relatively large Eastern hub and where National flew DC-7Bs; EAL's Rickenbacker and National's Ted Baker fought each other at every competitive destination along the eastern seaboard.

I'm also going to vote Baltimore airport. As for the crew member on the wing, perhaps he was supervising over-wing fueling- note the ladder? I don't think DC-7Bs had under-wing single-point pressure fueling.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:15 am
by whisperjet727
My guess is the old TPA terminal. When is sat on the southeast corner of the fiield.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:59 pm
by crownvic
Yes I agree....Baltimore is also a good guess along with Boston especially with the palm tree in the back as previously mentioned ....

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:46 pm
by highflier92660
crownvic wrote:
Yes I agree....Baltimore is also a good guess along with Boston especially with the palm tree in the back as previously mentioned ....


Do you think that's a king palm tree in the background beyond the Eastern Martin 404? Perhaps. I could go along with that photo being taken at the old Tampa airport off N Westshore Blvd. because of the prevalence of Eastern Airlines aircraft- especially the Electra- and the National DC-7B. Here is a link with a photo that could lend some credibility to the Tampa argument. Scroll near the bottom to the photo with the caption "Tampa International Airport scene from 1966..." with the Eastern Boeing 727-100s. http://www.tampapix.com/drewfield.htm

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:59 pm
by Cbusflyer
Jacksonville, that view of pines and palms
is the same today.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:16 pm
by PI4EVER
That is an EA Convair 440 not a Martin 404. Note forward left door open w/integral airstairs Martin's boarded thru the tail.
We see the NA DC-7B, EA Electra, DC-7B and CV440.
It is hard to distinguish the tall tree behind the Convair as a king palm, but suspect it is a FL airport and likely TPA over JAX.
EA did route Convair's thru TPA to/from Lakeland, Gainesville/Ocala and Vero Beach and not sure if that included JAX.
JAX even today has large wooded areas off the runways, but a bit skeptical EA had such a large scope of operation in JAX with 3 flights so close to each other arriving and departing as opposed to TPA being more active with multiple fligths throughout the day.
And who is the stray airplane on the runway? That would pin down other thoughts if it was an airline other than NA or EA. It too appears to be Convair.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:56 pm
by flflyer
As a kid, I flew out of JAX a lot, it looks like the gates EA used.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:04 pm
by timz
If it's Tampa, which way are we looking -- N or W?

Either way, in a Tampa pic, can you find that walkway or whatever it is extending toward the CV440?

(Historicaerials.com has a pretty good aerial that it says is 1969 -- no walkway visible.)

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:27 pm
by ImperialEagle
Old TPA had an observation walkway above where EA's gates were. Also directly across the runway looking North to Northeast,were some old FBO's and a few WWII Quonset hangers. Could be JAX, or another Florida airport back in the day. It has the old Florida "look". The L-188 appears to be pre-LEAP.
(The historic photo from 1969 shows the tiny old airport in the bottom right hand corner. Look closely and you will see a -720 (NW?) at the corner of the tiny old terminal building. Majority of this photo is the new jet airport still under construction.)
Wherever, it was busy enough for EA to have three on the ground at the same time so likely not MCO which was even more back-water than TPA back in those days. If it weren't for the Air Force they couldn't have afforded to keep the airport open.
Keep in mind that a lot of those Florida airports did not move into the jet era until the 1970's.
The old TPA airport was a good case in point. Very primitive until the current complex opened in the early 70's.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:42 pm
by highflier92660
Thankfully some sharp-eyed senior historians have come online to help. I am still slightly embarrassed I couldn't differentiate something as obvious as the Martin 404 vs. the Convair 440; note the cowling and fuselage profile of the Convair in the photo.

A slight vector off the topic airway, but what external differences were there on the L-188 after LEAP (Lockheed Electra Action Program) modifications in 1960-61? I know they stiffened the engine mounts and added torsional strength to the wing but my eye isn't able to detect any wing panel differences.

Timz: Your original photo, if it is indeed TPA, is looking to the north. ImperialEagle can give an accurate anecdotal report as to what the airport surrounding area was like in the early sixties. By the time I frequented TPA in the nineties virtually everything had changed. Example: On the extended centerline beyond that (possible) king palm tree is a Hooters restaurant on Hillsborough Ave.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:13 pm
by BravoOne
It's the flight engineer supervising the fueling and probably "sticking the tanks" to check the fuel load vs the what the gauges indicated on the flight deck. National used "professional" FEs and these guys took extra measures to make sure the job was done right.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:16 pm
by sparky35805
That open sided concourse looks a lot like the old airport at JAX.It is not BAL.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:27 pm
by wingsofman72
I agree with most it is either JAX or TPA. I vote for JAX, based on a little research I have done, NA did not have too many DC-7Bs to either, but in checking 1959-1960 schedules for NA/EA, only JAX has all of these aircraft there at the same time.

In Jax NA858 (PIE-JAX-IDL-BOS) was due though JAX at 435p departing at 500p.

At the same time EA has the following flights:

EA703 MIA-ORL-JAX-ATL-CLT-DTW 340P-410P (Running late?) DC-7B
EA200 DAB-JAX-ATL-CHA 421P-441P CV-440
EA608 MIA-PBI-TPA-EWR-BDL 430P-455P L-188 ELECTRA

Can't find where there would be any other location where all these cross (but will keep checking).

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:39 pm
by IAmGaroott
Has to be JAX. If you look at old photos and maps of Drew Field/TPA, the terminal isn't consistent with the field in the picture. The distant aircraft in the middle right of the photo is on runway 8 at JAX.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 pm
by longhauler
highflier92660 wrote:
A slight vector off the topic airway, but what external differences were there on the L-188 after LEAP (Lockheed Electra Action Program) modifications in 1960-61? I know they stiffened the engine mounts and added torsional strength to the wing but my eye isn't able to detect any wing panel differences.

I would guess it would be virtually impossible to tell the difference externally, however ... if we found anyone that could, it would be on this site!

In 1961 and during the LEAP program, Eastern changed their paint scheme to this one ...



The only way one could tell it had been "LEAPed" is the notation on the nose "Super Electra" (on EAL Electras). As the photo the OP posted is in the delivery paint scheme for the Electra, odds are it was pre-LEAP.

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:02 am
by rj968
Not Baltimore (BAL at the time). From the time Frienship International opened the “piers” as the concourses were called then were two story cream colored brick not a single story walkway like we see here. I worked at BAL in the early 60’s, EA never flew the Convair 440 there. EA & NA were on opposite sides on Pier B.

RJ

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:27 pm
by timz
A New Orleans pic, with EA airliners along the northward walkway

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... 1/sizes/o/

Think the tower is just out of the color pic (note the light extending into the pic, at the right edge -- it appears below)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... ateposted/

Re: Where? (National DC-7 -- 1959-60?)

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:20 pm
by highflier92660
Your diligent research is remarkable timz. One can visualize where the camera was positioned on the ramp just south of the tower in your original posted color photo. Although the tower is cropped-out of the picture, that ramp flood-light remains visible at the right edge.

New Orleans had an interesting mix of A/C around 1960, from Lockheed L-188 Electras to Curtiss C-46s.