johns624
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:26 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
When and how are they supposed to do this? Many have short layovers with no time to do it. Also, where are they going to get the transportation to go shopping for food. Who has 2 hours to sit there and do laundry?


On short layovers they usually don't go to a hotel either, they stay at the airport. However after a long haul flight you got a long layover, mostly 2 or 3 days or at least 24 hours. That's what this is about.

If the leased house is in a built-up area there's usually a supermarket or something similar within walking distance, so no need for transportation.
No, this ISN'T about just long haul flights. It's also about domestic layovers and you don't stay at the airport for any layovers. You do know what a layover is, don't you?
 
COPolynesianPub
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:53 am

I used to see QR crew at the Renaissance Hotel at LHR. From what I recall, I think QR purchased a hotel on Bath Rd some years back. Can anyone confirm?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:08 am

ikramerica wrote:
Leasing a house in order to use it as a hotel is against most residential zoning. There are battles with airbnb in many neighborhoods, and that’s where the owner wants to use it as a hotel. But renting it out to a commercial entity that would then use it as a hotel? No city would allow that...


Not quite the same. Companies for years have rented or owned houses that were used to house employees. That is not the same as using it like a hotel.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:25 am

Northwest owned a hotel in Narita and Amsterdam too I believe. I know at one point, Delta had 19 crews spending the night in Amsterdam each night.
 
DeltaPrince
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:21 am

UA used to own a hotel in Waikiki. All crews stayed there and many called it "The Dormitory."

BA did own a hotel in Manhattan, and their crews stayed there.
 
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ua900
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:24 am

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
So we all know that airlines book hotels for crew members when they stay the night away from their home-base. But it got me thinking, instead of paying $200-$400 a night or even more depending on the city, would it be be more economical at all for airlines to lease a house or apartment for these crew members? Depending on the city here in America, I'm thinking a monthly rent could reasonably be between $1000 to $3000 a month, which surely beats $200-$400 every night. Of course, the figures are just estimates and subjective according to where we're speaking about. A lot of factors I guess can play a role in calculating this as well - how many crewmembers are there a night, frequency of the flight, etc.

Hypothetical speaking, if an airline serves a market where there would be less than 10 affiliated people spending the night, an apartment could be feasible. A 3 bedroom apartment fitted with 2 twin beds in each room bedroom and an additional one in the living area could fit 7-8 crewmembers. It might not be ideal, but I was interested in hearing others thoughts.


Why not just buy Cousin Eddie's RV and position it in the employee parking lot of a given airport? Someone could drive it to the car wash once a week for a thorough inside vacuum cleaning / outside bucket wash and down to the nearest RV dump site. I'm sure someone could figure out how to run an extension cord back to the nearest airport outlet.

But kidding aside, given the pay scales of many crew members, having a relatively nice hotel room and a shuttle to and fro along with whatever paltry per diem these people get is probably one of the better perks in that line.

VSMUT wrote:
I for one would love it, and have tried to convince my employer to do so.
I do have certain standards though, cleaning needs to be included, only 1 pilot per room, wifi and kitchen provided. The other pilots were in favour of the idea too.

With my currently setup, I travel up to 3 months in a row, staying in hotels all the time. Most of the time, we even stay at one base for 3 or 4 weeks in a row. IMHO, hotels, even really good ones, have some glaring faults. The restaurants a dead boring and all so similar. The menus are so uninteresting! Pricey too. And sometimes, I just want to avoid interacting with any more strangers for the day. I would far prefer to cook my own food. So far, that was only possible at an Intercontinental where they booked us in the suites that came with kitchens.


Funny how many people think of airlines as a racket when airline employees get fleeced by hotel restaurants. So I guess a nicer extended stay near the airport with shuttle service could do.

WPvsMW wrote:
The OP proposes dormitories. Too much liability. US operators would never do it.
Employees do it all the time. The term is "crash pad".


There you have it. Liability. If employees want to be flying buddies and share beds or apartments that's their business. But it's not like the company will ask them to do it, with airlines and anywhere else.
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DeltaPrince
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:25 am

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
So we all know that airlines book hotels for crew members when they stay the night away from their home-base. But it got me thinking, instead of paying $200-$400 a night or even more depending on the city, would it be be more economical at all for airlines to lease a house or apartment for these crew members? Depending on the city here in America, I'm thinking a monthly rent could reasonably be between $1000 to $3000 a month, which surely beats $200-$400 every night. Of course, the figures are just estimates and subjective according to where we're speaking about. A lot of factors I guess can play a role in calculating this as well - how many crewmembers are there a night, frequency of the flight, etc.

Hypothetical speaking, if an airline serves a market where there would be less than 10 affiliated people spending the night, an apartment could be feasible. A 3 bedroom apartment fitted with 2 twin beds in each room bedroom and an additional one in the living area could fit 7-8 crewmembers. It might not be ideal, but I was interested in hearing others thoughts.


May I ask why you care? How does this affect you?
 
hz747300
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:46 am

By chance I actually saw the difference in hotel room prices for airlines and non-airlines. When I checked into the Four Seasons in Sydney about 5 years ago, they had accidently printed a reservation sheet with the Asiana rate printed on it. Their base rate was A$199 / night. Rather than print a new one, he crossed it out and wrote my rate, A$439 / night. What I found more remarkable is that Asiana didn't even have daily flights to Sydney and they still had this rate. I always wondered if this was IATA negotiated with hotels or does each airline have to negotiate separately? When I was in short pants, my dad used his Saudia employee card to get us great discounts on hotels all around the world and cheap airfare (standby) on many airlines.
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neutrino
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:12 am

Serviced apartments could be a good option, where available.
Almost all the necessary amenities with lower prices.
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qblue
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:47 am

Don't forget Airlines don't want the added liabilities of having roommates who are drunks or maybe sexually aggressive snore smell bad hygiene. HR and Legal department don't want the added headache.
 
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Arq
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:53 am

I have read from a book of a Thai famous flight attendant - turned - author that Thai Airways used to rent an entire floor of apartment building in Tehran a few decades back, employ a full time housekeeper for crew layover. This ended when the flight discontinued. There are no such practice on other destination even on those day.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:53 am

FItzpatrick Hotels operates a BA-owned (or leased) building in Manhattan as a hotel exclusively for the use of its flight crews. (Fitzpatrick also operates their own hotel in Manhattan.) I know where this building is (although I don't think that it is prudent to say), and it's a nice-enough area, perhaps a little more office in the area than residential, but there's a decent deli basically right next door, and there's a nearby block on the avenue that has within the past 5 years or so become all food storefronts.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:26 am

There are lots of easier ways to save.

I was at the Air Berlin hotel for JFK last year (before they went away). It was a La Quinta out in Long Island and the rack rate was $120 or so, I imagine they got quite a steep discount on that.

So even in the most expensive cities there are options. The only one I can see being hard is SFO. But I wouldn't be shocked if there's some airline putting their crews up in Gilroy or something.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:34 am

Why dont airlines buy property developer to build and manage house for their crew?
Why dont airlines buy food producers to provide raw materials for their catering service?
Why dont airlines buy oil company to provide fuels?
Why dont airlines buy aircraft manufacturers to build their own aircrafts?
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:52 am

I don't have an opinion on how crews should be accommodated on their trips... although I do want to point out that there's much more to "accommodation" than the existence of a room.... cleaning, linen, transport, security, etc. services. And getting access to the room! Those can be arranged, but not at zero cost. As someone pointed upthread, if airlines felt they could do a more efficient job than hotels, they would have done so. There's some likelihood of course that in cost cutting and LCC operations there will be more shared accommodation than today ... pretty likely IMO, but it is also likely that even in those operations one has to organise the additional services in some fashion, and I suspect the cost benefits aren't as big as one would expect. Also, if you own an apartment you are stuck with whether or not you happen to need the space today.

That being said, I'm not in the airline industry but I do travel a lot. I have to say that having your own kitchen is a huge, huge plus. One really doesn't want to always eat at restaurants... but apartments are often available in "apartment hotels" or hotels have rooms with kitchen facilities. Of course it isn't really working unless you also have supermarkets nearby.
 
CanadianNorth
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:52 am

We're a small-ish cheap-ish airline and it's standard procedure for each employee to have their own hotel room any time they're away from home base for the night.

Housing would probably be slightly cheaper but the airline would have to arrange transport and meals for the people staying there as well as cleaning and maintenance of the house. Meanwhile at a hotel everything is arranged for you by the professionals of that industry and all the airline has to do is give them a list of names and dates, pay, and carry on with running an airline. Most destinations we regularly overnight at I'd be surprised if the airline is paying more than $100/night per room at our usual hotels. And I'm sure the same thing applies for any other company that books a bunch of rooms at a single hotel on such a regular basis as well. Bulk discounts are a fairly standard thing in most industries.

As an employee it's better that way too. I like my co-workers but usually after spending the last 14 hours with them the last thing I want to do is spend my own free time waiting in line to use the facilities while we discuss who's on laundry today so we can hurry up and go grocery shopping with the pilots. Meanwhile, with individual hotel rooms each of you has your own space you can go to relax and just have a break from people. Usually the place is clean, meals and beverages are close by, transportation is relatively easy, you can go to bed when you're ready to and set the alarm based on how much time you need, you can watch what you want to watch on the tv, you have a quiet and private place to sit and call the folks back home, on it goes. Going out with the crews is fun, but come about the 6th night away from home on your 5th tour of duty in two months many people will hit a point where they just want to go relax somewhere quiet and be left alone for a while. After a few years of the airline life these sorts of things will start to matter.

We have one destination we overnight at some times that has no hotels, in that case there is a rental house that we use. They arrange to have someone come in and change the sheets between crews and the airline's catering department sends us groceries to make sandwiches and salads and such, plus a bunch of pre-made meals that can go in the freezer upon arrival and then just heat them in the oven and serve as required. It's done that way because they know full well after a 14 hour day of hauling the last thing any of us is wants to do is go grocery shopping and start cooking. The place is a shared kitchen and living room but we each have our own bedroom we can retreat to. It can still be a pain though if a pilot wants to go to bed early and the engineer stays late to work on the airplane then said engineer has to basically tip toe around in the dark after where at a hotel this wouldn't be an issue. Realistically it works fine for what it is but a regular hotel is easier.
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barney captain
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:16 am

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
SWALUV wrote:
Deltabravo1123 wrote:

But they share hotel rooms......



Most airlines don't do this anymore, either for training or on layovers.


So every single crew member would have their own hotel room?



Always, always, always. I've been flying for 32 years and have NEVER heard of crews being required to share a room (initial training notwithstanding).

Sexual harassment conflicts alone would keep this from happening. How do you decide who sleeps with who? I was once asked if my First Officer and I could share a room as the hotel was full. I said, "you'll probably have to clear that with her husband first". They suddenly found us separate rooms.

This isn't Summer Camp and we require adequate rest and privacy. Sleeping next to stranger is so far removed from that as to approach the absurd.
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CARST
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 am

British Airways owned a large apartment house in New York City for decades. It was always said the parties there were legendary. They had so many flights into JFK and EWR, that it made sense to have their "own hotel". It was an apartment house with a contractor doing the cleaning, changing the bed sheets, etc. I'm not sure how catering was done or if the crews got vouchers for delivery services and restaurants around the block.

But, that is history. As far as I know, BA closed that house in NYC a few years ago (can't find the a.net thread about it right now). So apparently with the ultra low rates airlines pay, it was not worth keeping that BA private crew hotel open. Something that seemed economically in the 1970s, could have been quite uneconomically in today's times.


Also the prices quoted by the thread opener are waaayyyy over the top. Airlines have year-round contracts with a guarantee on paying and using the rooms. And often they try to focus on a certain chain of hotels to get the best deal. This way they pay like 45 USD / 40 EUR for one night. I know from higher up management employee of a large European airline, who lived for over three years in a 5-star-hotel, because the airline deemed it cheaper to pay for a furnished apartment. He had the choice and asked to stay in the hotel, because he flew home every weekend and the airline gladly accepted that.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:26 am

I believe that such a solution would involve so many requirements to work for everyone that it is unfeasable and unrealistic.
To begin with, it would have to be a property in an upper-middle class neighbourhood near the airport.
Second, assuming it's a narrowbody crew (Pilot, First Officer, + 4 Flight Attendants) it would need to have at least 6 bedrooms (most of us agree sharing is a no-no), and each bedroom should have its own ensuite bathroom. Who wants to wait in line for a shower at 3 am? This could be replaced by two 3-bedrooms properties, but they would still need to have 3 bathrooms.
Cleaning and housekeeping would need 24/7 staff, ready and willing to clean even at unfriendly hours, after one crew leaves and before the next one arrives. This is assuming 24-hour rotations and no overlapping.
Kitchen would need to be big enough to accomodate several people cooking at the same time.
Not everyone likes to be in their room while awake, so they would need to offer some nice social areas, and come up with some rules to use them. Are parties allowed while people in the bedroom next door are trying to sleep?
Transportation to/from the airport can be easily organised, but what happens when people want to go somewhere on their own? If it's an upper middle class neighbourhood, good public transportation is not always guaranteed.
People who travel to other time zones do not necessarily follow mainstream eating patterns. What happens if you feel hungry at 4am? Granted, the house could offer a hotel-style minibar with sandwiches and oven meals, but this may not go well with/suit all the staff.
Gym and pool are important for a large number of people. Although many would compromise on the pool, the gym is still key. Is there a gym in the neighbourhood? Is it walking distance from the property?

Last but not least, some flight attendants get on like a house on fire, but many find it difficult to stand each other on the plane, let alone sharing kitchen and leisure/relaxing time with them.

And let's not get into the laundry part....
Last edited by jmmadrid on Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Dufo
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:28 am

Such discounts are also the reason that we get crappiest room they have. Close to laundry, elevators, connecting door, noisy family floor with screaming children running in the hallway.. It is always better (for us crews) to book ad-hoc instead of using contract rates.
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oldannyboy
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:56 am

Airlines used to do this all the time back in the day. Especially airlines from communist countries, but not only. Especially true for countries with volatile security and questionable safety/health standards.
Meanwhile standards have improved mostly throughout the world and hotel prices have dropped considerably...
 
BestWestern
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:59 am

Air China have a crew dormitory in Frankfurt.

Chinese cabin crew share rooms frequently
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BestWestern
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:01 am

There is a photo of FR crew sleeping on the floor of the Malaga crew room last week.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:09 am

Airlines don't pay published rates, so your 200-400 dollar range is wildly out of proportion.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:16 am

What % of airlines costs are for hotel rooms?? PSA has a contract $900,000 a year for a hotel for 4-5 flights to a small airport. I can’t imagine how many more hotels they have contracts with.
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ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:29 am

A house or apartment would only seem to make sense if it were still close enough to transport. Which would probably put you into hotel land anyways. On top of that I imagine most crew hotel stays are a couple nights at most so you would have pretty high turnover of guests. With any servicing having to be done at whatever spots between crew using the room. A hotel should have a heap of rooms so new crew can be put into one already cleaned with the just vacated room being cleaned on the next schedule.

However companies leasing/renting fully serviced apartments and houses is not uncommon. Especially if you're going to have loads of staff cycling through a city for a few days or weeks at a time. I remember being sent to another city for a week to work on a client site and being put up in a fully serviced apartment with several other colleagues (single room each) for the week. Nicer than a hotel room as well as we had a full kitchen so you could cook what you wanted if that's what was what you wanted to do.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:13 am

Not too long ago, there were some regional airlines that wouldn’t provide any hotels or housing on layovers. Instead they outstation based their crews where the planes overnighted.

Since you were based in Messina NY, Moab UT, Brookings SD or one of the other 55 other pilot bases in small towns all over the US, It was up to each crewmember assigned to the base to find and make their own housing arrangements when they were done with flying for day.
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VSMUT
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:31 am

aviationaware wrote:
Airlines don't pay published rates, so your 200-400 dollar range is wildly out of proportion.


Thats most certainly not a universal truth. I have seen the rates some of my employers pay. In some instances, they most certainly weren't discounted. Not every route flown in the world is regular enough to demand special rates. And don't forget the ACMI and charter world either.


ua900 wrote:
Funny how many people think of airlines as a racket when airline employees get fleeced by hotel restaurants. So I guess a nicer extended stay near the airport with shuttle service could do.


IMHO, I always prefer to stay in the city center, even if the shuttle to the airport can take up to 30 minutes or more. I've been stuck in lousy airport hotels in the butt-end of Eastern and Southern Europe way too many times, typically with very limited food options. The choice between your average hamburger with chips, spaghetti bolognese, frozen pizza or caesars salad quickly grows boring. It isn't great for your weight either.
 
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zeke
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:56 am

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
So every single crew member would have their own hotel room?


Not sure why you are surprised by this. I would not like being served with papers for sexual harassment for conduct I didn’t do behind closed doors. The employer would be co-defending.

A simple preventative measure is separate rooms.
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aviationaware
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:18 am

VSMUT wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Airlines don't pay published rates, so your 200-400 dollar range is wildly out of proportion.


Thats most certainly not a universal truth. I have seen the rates some of my employers pay. In some instances, they most certainly weren't discounted. Not every route flown in the world is regular enough to demand special rates. And don't forget the ACMI and charter world either.


All valid points, but under circumstances that would warrant the operation of an own house (which would not be feasible in any of your suggested scenarios), it's difficult to imagine that a major airline would not negotiate the rates with the crew hotel.
 
AbigailWT
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:28 am

We pay nowhere near $300-400 a night. More like $30-40 (edit: just found our average for 2017 was $313 a week per crew member). That works out to $44.71 a night or $1341.30/month. This includes all of the "high rent" markets, including international, that you can think of that a top 10 airline operates in. We don't stay at the Ritz Carlton or anything but we don't stay at Motel 8 either. This is because airlines have contracted rates to either contracting/service firms who handle accommodations for them at large scale or relationships with the hotel companies themselves. You leverage the buying power of a billion dollar company who can guarantee a hotel chain several hundred rooms per night. They win your business.

So from a financial perspective it's already unattractive. Then you have capacity planning issues. It's easier to buy by the night than commit to months or even years. You have a myriad of tenant-landlord laws to cope with and other various local oddities, you get the point. Then there are all the logistical nightmares already mentioned above.

Cherry on top is that we simply wouldn't like it.
 
chrisp390
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:09 pm

During Bankrupcy American Airlines sold a multi million pound home it owned in a nice part of London. Was this house being used for crews to stay in previously?
 
tonystan
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:20 pm

wjcandee wrote:
FItzpatrick Hotels operates a BA-owned (or leased) building in Manhattan as a hotel exclusively for the use of its flight crews. (Fitzpatrick also operates their own hotel in Manhattan.) I know where this building is (although I don't think that it is prudent to say), and it's a nice-enough area, perhaps a little more office in the area than residential, but there's a decent deli basically right next door, and there's a nearby block on the avenue that has within the past 5 years or so become all food storefronts.


Fitzpatrick’s relinquished control of the former BA crew hotel about 6 or 7 years ago to a private management company at the same time the building was sold to another company and left BA hands. BA remained in the hotel until earlier this year when the hotel decided to market itself to the general public and BA has now dispersed its crews amongst different normal hotels in the area.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:22 pm

Quite a few Chinese airlines still do either sharing a hotel room among crew members, or dormitories. CN3 all do that, Air China does it quite extensively overseas (I know for sure they do that in LA and NYC, heard they do it in MEL and SYD but can't confirm this) while CZ and Mu are more limited (MU is mostly in Shanghai for other crew members that aren't based there). MU and 3U (Sichuan Airlines) still make two crew members sharing a room except the Captain.

Michael
 
tonystan
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:26 pm

CARST wrote:
British Airways owned a large apartment house in New York City for decades. It was always said the parties there were legendary. They had so many flights into JFK and EWR, that it made sense to have their "own hotel". It was an apartment house with a contractor doing the cleaning, changing the bed sheets, etc. I'm not sure how catering was done or if the crews got vouchers for delivery services and restaurants around the block.


Not much of that is true I’m afraid. It was not a house or apartment, it was a hotel tower with 35 floors and 4 rooms per floor run as a hotel by a hotel company for the sole use of the BA crews on JFK routes. It still was not large enough for the entire operation so crew also stayed in other hotels in the New York area including some upstate locations. EWR crew never stayed here but always stayed somewhere in New Jersey state. Party’s were not really a thing as most crew on JFKs were on short stays and the bar available in the hotel was not up to much.

BA finally moved my out of this hotel earlier this year.
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cougar15
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:29 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
Northwest owned a hotel in Narita and Amsterdam too I believe. I know at one point, Delta had 19 crews spending the night in Amsterdam each night.


I don't think Northwest owned them (AMS), as at least in the late 90´s and early 2000´s, Tech Crew were at the Crown Plaza, Cabin crew at the NH, both in Hoofddoorp.
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Canuck600
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:38 pm

I thought it was written into aviation regulations that pilots & aircraft maintenance engineers had to have their own rooms? Pretty sure that's the situation in Canada at least.
 
ualcsr
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:01 pm

It's all been said here - airlines don't pay the standard rate, full service vs. "do it yourself" etc.. However, as someone who travels very frequently and who lives very close to a major airport, so close in fact that the location could be considered a good layover spot (location wise), this is a terrible idea, not just from a crew member perspective but from the neighborhood as well. As to crews, my neighborhood is completely residential, there is nothing for any crew to do around my area that would not involve a long walk (in Florida heat) somewhere. A private dwelling would also not provide for any of the amenities a hotel might get you such as a free shuttle, dining, etc. My biggest gripe though is with the AirBNB concept which I fervently opposed. I have the utmost respect for airline crew but I do not want anyone, crew or otherwise, rotating in and out of my neighborhood without us knowing who they are. There is an AirBNB house one block from my house which rents for an extremely cheap amount. We (neighbors) have had to call police and the city on numerous occasions to the point where we're ready to take it to local government and put an end to it. Crew are not likely to create the ruckus or waste we have with the house on our block, but I want to know who my neighbors are.
 
DeltaPrince
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:21 pm

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
So we all know that airlines book hotels for crew members when they stay the night away from their home-base. But it got me thinking, instead of paying $200-$400 a night or even more depending on the city, would it be be more economical at all for airlines to lease a house or apartment for these crew members? Depending on the city here in America, I'm thinking a monthly rent could reasonably be between $1000 to $3000 a month, which surely beats $200-$400 every night. Of course, the figures are just estimates and subjective according to where we're speaking about. A lot of factors I guess can play a role in calculating this as well - how many crewmembers are there a night, frequency of the flight, etc.

Hypothetical speaking, if an airline serves a market where there would be less than 10 affiliated people spending the night, an apartment could be feasible. A 3 bedroom apartment fitted with 2 twin beds in each room bedroom and an additional one in the living area could fit 7-8 crewmembers. It might not be ideal, but I was interested in hearing others thoughts.


To the OP who brought up this ridiculous topic: If your aim was to explore ways to save money for the airlines, sorry to disappoint you but forcing crews to double up in substandard apartments will not decrease the air fare you pay. The savings would go straight into management's pocket.

Next.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:44 pm

Some airlines used to own and run a few crew hotels, but have since sold them. I don’t think they want to be in that business. It is cheaper and easier to just use purchasing power to drive a good deal on blocks of rooms at hotels owned and operated by others
 
wjcandee
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:50 pm

tonystan wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
FItzpatrick Hotels operates a BA-owned (or leased) building in Manhattan as a hotel exclusively for the use of its flight crews. (Fitzpatrick also operates their own hotel in Manhattan.) I know where this building is (although I don't think that it is prudent to say), and it's a nice-enough area, perhaps a little more office in the area than residential, but there's a decent deli basically right next door, and there's a nearby block on the avenue that has within the past 5 years or so become all food storefronts.


Fitzpatrick’s relinquished control of the former BA crew hotel about 6 or 7 years ago to a private management company at the same time the building was sold to another company and left BA hands. BA remained in the hotel until earlier this year when the hotel decided to market itself to the general public and BA has now dispersed its crews amongst different normal hotels in the area.


Cool! Thanks for the info. Thought I saw a Golden Touch bus in front of there not that long ago, but maybe time flies. I used to work on the same street, but haven't for several years.
 
sw733
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:03 pm

Cathay Pacific has Cathay City for all of the non-HKG based crews. At least a few years ago when I was there last, they even had different "hours" (for things like housekeeping) on different floors so that crew could stay as close to their home time as possible for least impact on body clock.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:09 pm

Royal Brunei cabin crew share rooms. And Philippine Airlines in BNE use an apartment complex in Chermside across from the mall. Lastly the HiFly crew stay in apartments in Hamilton on their 6 week BNE runs.
 
airbazar
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:17 pm

DeltaPrince wrote:
UA used to own a hotel in Waikiki. All crews stayed there and many called it "The Dormitory."
BA did own a hotel in Manhattan, and their crews stayed there.


BestWestern wrote:
Air China have a crew dormitory in Frankfurt.
Chinese cabin crew share rooms frequently


Like I said above this sort of thing used to be very common. This may seem odd or strange for today's generation but I see nothing wrong with it. I suspect that as hotel chains merged and expanded worldwide it became more cost effective for airlines to get out of the real-estate business.
One thing no one has yet mentioned is that this type of residential arrangement is how most expat crews live at the ME3 carriers. I know it's not technically a layover but it's still where they live in between flights.
 
TWA902fly
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:31 pm

I don't know about all stations, but I know that Boutique Air has a crew house in Cortez (CEZ). I applied for a job there once for a cross-utilized agent, and one of the duties was shuttling crew from the airport to the house.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
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adv40624
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:36 pm

United Airlines owned a hotel in Waikiki that they used for crew for many years starting around 1970. It was called the Seaside Hotel and both pilots and flight attendants stayed there on layovers. Employees could also book rooms at the hotel at a very discounted rate. The hotel had 125 rooms and a ground floor restaurant. It was located in the heart of Waikiki at 342 Seaside Ave. The hotel was put up for sale in 2012 and caused an uproar with many United employees and retires. Smisek defended the carrier's position in an email, "We are not in the hotel business, we are in the airline business, which is why we have sold this unrelated piece of real estate," Smisek wrote. "We will be accommodating our flight attendants at other hotels. I do know that our flight attendants liked the staff at the Seaside Hotel, but I'm confident that the new hotels we use will provide good service."
https://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR201 ... Hotel.html
 
Moosefire
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:38 pm

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
And this shows exactly why the pilot shortage will never happen in the volumes predicted. You’ll fit in perfect at Skywest (Skypest). Hope you never need protection from the company there


Did I ever say I'll be at SkyWest? No. If all goes as planned I'll be at Piedmont. Thanks for (not) asking. You imply unions are a good thing, but sometimes all they do is build up people's ignorance and ego's until they finally reach the point such as you have - assuming and making inconsiderate responses, with no regard to the mindset others have for themselves. I won't need protection from a union-less airline because I won't put myself in that position. If only the shortage of pilots was based on attitudes like yours, then the regionals would really definitely be in deep shit. Move along.


You’re talking with a lot of swagger for someone who hasn’t made it out of flight school yet. There’s a reason why the pilot profession in the US is heavily unionized. I recommend you read Flying the Line volumes 1 & 2 to learn about the profession you’re pursuing before opining about about the roll of unions and that they might not be good for the profession.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
Armaghman
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Also seen that airlines with multiple daily flights the hotel can manage the rooms very effectively. I have seen this with SQ in Shanghai. When multiple changes during the day.

Also allows hotel to manage cleaning schedules. They are gaurenteed the swap when it happens at 6am will always have a couple of hrs to get rooms ready even if at capacity
 
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airzim
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:52 pm

tonystan wrote:
CARST wrote:
British Airways owned a large apartment house in New York City for decades. It was always said the parties there were legendary. They had so many flights into JFK and EWR, that it made sense to have their "own hotel". It was an apartment house with a contractor doing the cleaning, changing the bed sheets, etc. I'm not sure how catering was done or if the crews got vouchers for delivery services and restaurants around the block.


Not much of that is true I’m afraid. It was not a house or apartment, it was a hotel tower with 35 floors and 4 rooms per floor run as a hotel by a hotel company for the sole use of the BA crews on JFK routes. It still was not large enough for the entire operation so crew also stayed in other hotels in the New York area including some upstate locations. EWR crew never stayed here but always stayed somewhere in New Jersey state. Party’s were not really a thing as most crew on JFKs were on short stays and the bar available in the hotel was not up to much.

BA finally moved my out of this hotel earlier this year.


Speaking of BA, I once did some work for Speedwing (BA IT group) on a project in the Caribbean and we were asked to stay at the BA crew hotel in Antigua. I was told the owner/manager, was ex-BA crew and bought this hotel and got the contract to host BA layover crews. Or something along those lines. Hotel was beautiful. Not on the beach but on the cliff overlooking the ocean and the Sandals singles resort.

It was a pretty good gig given BA only flew to ANU three times a week from LGW at the time. Inbound 747 crew would fly in from LGW and layover that night and have 2 days off. Plane would continue to Grenada with the crew from two days earlier and turn same day back to ANU where that crew would layover and have 2 more days off. That night the plane would continue back to London with the crew from 5 days earlier. So the hotel nearly always had 3 747 BA crews staying at one time. Plus the boondoggle with pilots and crews cavourting for a week in the Caribbean.

I spent a few night there working on something unrelated to BA, but spent a few night around the bar with the pilots. One pilot I remember distinctly having to fly the Grenada turn the following day. Certainly made me question flying BA on that sector given some of the behaviour witnessed.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:20 pm

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
Interesting to hear that some airlines used to do this. I guess it just goes to show how strict union and civil regulations have become. I'm in flight school currently, and will be starting with a regional soon, and I for one would probably enjoy a hotel over this dorm-like house setup I described. However, like others have said, if it was a house nicely kept up with a contracted cleaning service, I would not mind that at all. Thank you all for the input.


It has a lot less to do with unions and regulations than it does with airlines focusing on flying airplanes. TWA used to own a hotel chain as well. At the end of the day, they are two different businesses and don't make as much sense together as it might seem.

It's also cheaper to use hotels.

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