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SEA
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:23 pm

As someone who used to be in the hotel industry... Airlines aren't paying $200/night for hotels. More like $20-40 depending on market/demand.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:11 pm

As mentioned in some posts above, airlines used to engage in the hospitality Industry in the past. Examples of original founders or temporary shareholders include:

Pan Am: Intercontinental
TWA: Hilton
SAS: Radisson
Swissair: Swissôtel
Air France: Le Meridian
 
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ua900
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:15 pm

VSMUT wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Airlines don't pay published rates, so your 200-400 dollar range is wildly out of proportion.


Thats most certainly not a universal truth. I have seen the rates some of my employers pay. In some instances, they most certainly weren't discounted. Not every route flown in the world is regular enough to demand special rates. And don't forget the ACMI and charter world either.


ua900 wrote:
Funny how many people think of airlines as a racket when airline employees get fleeced by hotel restaurants. So I guess a nicer extended stay near the airport with shuttle service could do.


IMHO, I always prefer to stay in the city center, even if the shuttle to the airport can take up to 30 minutes or more. I've been stuck in lousy airport hotels in the butt-end of Eastern and Southern Europe way too many times, typically with very limited food options. The choice between your average hamburger with chips, spaghetti bolognese, frozen pizza or caesars salad quickly grows boring. It isn't great for your weight either.


Agreed, any semblance of normalcy is appreciated when travelling. The cookie cutter corporate joints get old quick, they are fairly standardized the world over.
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SocalApproach
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:21 pm

Kinda off topic but Im actually surprised a company like Uber or Lyft doesn't strike corporate deals with airlines to lock in a fixed price so crew members can call for transportation to/from the airport. I know most airport locations have their own shuttles but there are alot of locations that dont when airlines have their crews at off airport locations on longer layovers. You could extend that to companies like Hotel Tonight where crews could book their own accommodations upon landing. It would completely eliminate alot of positions within crew resources at an airline and at corporate vendors like API. Probably wouldnt work with a company like AirBnb. Ive never used them but it seems you have to book something like that with them in advance and not last minute like Im suggesting
 
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phlsfo
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:45 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
Kinda off topic but Im actually surprised a company like Uber or Lyft doesn't strike corporate deals with airlines to lock in a fixed price so crew members can call for transportation to/from the airport. I know most airport locations have their own shuttles but there are alot of locations that dont when airlines have their crews at off airport locations on longer layovers. You could extend that to companies like Hotel Tonight where crews could book their own accommodations upon landing. It would completely eliminate alot of positions within crew resources at an airline and at corporate vendors like API. Probably wouldnt work with a company like AirBnb. Ive never used them but it seems you have to book something like that with them in advance and not last minute like Im suggesting


If a hotel doesn't have a shuttle to get crew members to/from the hotel, the airline arranges this, always at a very good contract price as they are essentially guaranteeing business 365 days a year. Telling a crew member to call an Uber after working a long flight is ridiculous, it's much easier to have a contract put in place and a regularly scheduled pick up. The shuttle companies generally monitor the arrival times for any delays, too.
 
maverick4002
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:05 am

wjcandee wrote:
FItzpatrick Hotels operates a BA-owned (or leased) building in Manhattan as a hotel exclusively for the use of its flight crews. (Fitzpatrick also operates their own hotel in Manhattan.) I know where this building is (although I don't think that it is prudent to say), and it's a nice-enough area, perhaps a little more office in the area than residential, but there's a decent deli basically right next door, and there's a nearby block on the avenue that has within the past 5 years or so become all food storefronts.


Lol I had a night cap there. I dont remember the exact location but if I go walking in the area I will find it in a few minutes. It was a nice enough place.
 
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CARST
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:22 am

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Deltabravo1123 wrote:
Interesting to hear that some airlines used to do this. I guess it just goes to show how strict union and civil regulations have become. I'm in flight school currently, and will be starting with a regional soon, and I for one would probably enjoy a hotel over this dorm-like house setup I described. However, like others have said, if it was a house nicely kept up with a contracted cleaning service, I would not mind that at all. Thank you all for the input.


It has a lot less to do with unions and regulations than it does with airlines focusing on flying airplanes. TWA used to own a hotel chain as well. At the end of the day, they are two different businesses and don't make as much sense together as it might seem.

It's also cheaper to use hotels.


Sorry, this is just wrong. TWA and PanAm both sold of their hotel chains when they got into financial problems. The hotel chains were making lots of money for both airlines and that's why they sold it, because it were the only real "assets" left for which they could get good and hard money. Everything else that followed, the sales of slots, routes and airplanes, made them money, too, but at the same time sealed their fate and was the demise of both airlines going into full swing.


tonystan wrote:
CARST wrote:
British Airways owned a large apartment house in New York City for decades. It was always said the parties there were legendary. They had so many flights into JFK and EWR, that it made sense to have their "own hotel". It was an apartment house with a contractor doing the cleaning, changing the bed sheets, etc. I'm not sure how catering was done or if the crews got vouchers for delivery services and restaurants around the block.


Not much of that is true I’m afraid. It was not a house or apartment, it was a hotel tower with 35 floors and 4 rooms per floor run as a hotel by a hotel company for the sole use of the BA crews on JFK routes. It still was not large enough for the entire operation so crew also stayed in other hotels in the New York area including some upstate locations. EWR crew never stayed here but always stayed somewhere in New Jersey state. Party’s were not really a thing as most crew on JFKs were on short stays and the bar available in the hotel was not up to much.

BA finally moved my out of this hotel earlier this year.


I take your word for it and stand corrected then. Everything I said is of my memory from reading the (IIRC) very long thread on BA closing their Manhattan "crew house", which got quite nostalgic. Perhaps someone can find the thread, because I'm sure people who claimed to have been working for BA wrote all that what I "repeated" above. I tried to use google with the site-related search, but had no luck.
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 361
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:27 am

Kilopond wrote:
As mentioned in some posts above, airlines used to engage in the hospitality Industry in the past. Examples of original founders or temporary shareholders include:

Pan Am: Intercontinental
TWA: Hilton
SAS: Radisson
Swissair: Swissôtel
Air France: Le Meridian


+Varig: Tropical Hotels
+Royal Jordanian: ALIA Hotel at Amman's Airport.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:20 am

SocalApproach wrote:
Kinda off topic but Im actually surprised a company like Uber or Lyft doesn't strike corporate deals with airlines to lock in a fixed price so crew members can call for transportation to/from the airport.


My first company had a deal with Uber to provide crew transport in one Eastern European city.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:22 pm

The main issue is how do crews guarantee the quality of accommodation on offer. Terms like 5-star/3-star are an indicator of the overall quality of the hotel during negotiations with crew unions.

I remember this being an issue when Indian Airlines (later merged into Air India) was convincing cabin crew unions to accept 3-star hotels instead of the 5-star accomodation agreed in their previous contract.

Note: Pakistan International (PIA) owned luxury hotels in the NYC area as well as Paris. Forgetting the names.
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TWFlyGuy
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:25 pm

CARST wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
Deltabravo1123 wrote:
Interesting to hear that some airlines used to do this. I guess it just goes to show how strict union and civil regulations have become. I'm in flight school currently, and will be starting with a regional soon, and I for one would probably enjoy a hotel over this dorm-like house setup I described. However, like others have said, if it was a house nicely kept up with a contracted cleaning service, I would not mind that at all. Thank you all for the input.


It has a lot less to do with unions and regulations than it does with airlines focusing on flying airplanes. TWA used to own a hotel chain as well. At the end of the day, they are two different businesses and don't make as much sense together as it might seem.

It's also cheaper to use hotels.


Sorry, this is just wrong. TWA and PanAm both sold of their hotel chains when they got into financial problems. The hotel chains were making lots of money for both airlines and that's why they sold it, because it were the only real "assets" left for which they could get good and hard money. Everything else that followed, the sales of slots, routes and airplanes, made them money, too, but at the same time sealed their fate and was the demise of both airlines going into full swing.


Actually Trans World Corp sold TWA off because it wasn't as profitable as the other pieces they owned. Essentially the same issue. They realized being a jack of all trades didn't have crossover benefits and sold the least valuable. At the time, TWA was still relatively healthy and carrying over 1/2 of the transatlantic traffic I believe. It wasn't in great shape but Icahn really drove them over the edge using the pensions to pay him for purchasing the airline.
 
airtrantpa
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:46 pm

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
micstatic wrote:
Sharing rooms seems cheap and something the workers wouldn’t accept.


But they share hotel rooms......


wn crews do not they get there own rooms
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flyjay123
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:09 pm

COPolynesianPub wrote:
I used to see QR crew at the Renaissance Hotel at LHR. From what I recall, I think QR purchased a hotel on Bath Rd some years back. Can anyone confirm?



Yes QR do own a hotel at Heathrow.
 
Alias1024
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:39 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
Kinda off topic but Im actually surprised a company like Uber or Lyft doesn't strike corporate deals with airlines to lock in a fixed price so crew members can call for transportation to/from the airport. I know most airport locations have their own shuttles but there are alot of locations that dont when airlines have their crews at off airport locations on longer layovers. You could extend that to companies like Hotel Tonight where crews could book their own accommodations upon landing. It would completely eliminate alot of positions within crew resources at an airline and at corporate vendors like API. Probably wouldnt work with a company like AirBnb. Ive never used them but it seems you have to book something like that with them in advance and not last minute like Im suggesting


Airlines need predictable operations and relying on rideshare companies and last minute hotel booking apps doesn’t allow this.

What if there is huge demand for an Uber and it takes an excessive amount of time for a crew to get picked up at the hotel? How would you like to hear your flight is delayed because Uber was busy? At least with a contracted shuttle the transportation company is accountable to the airline for late pickup or drop off.

Hotel Tonight is an absolute non-starter. What if a crew lands and all nearby hotels are sold out? A crew making a 30 or 40 mile drive to a hotel while on a minimum rest layover will result in a lengthy delay the next day. This is especially likely during IROPS like a blizzard, resulting in more delays when the airline is trying to piece their operations back together.
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ExDubai
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:16 pm

DeltaPrince wrote:
Great idea. Let's take cost-cutting even further...

How about we have all passengers share the same beverage cup? Chug your drink and then pass the cup back to the flight attendant to be refilled for the next passenger.

Sometimes I‘m missing a like button :bigthumbsup:
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ExDubai
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:20 pm

Deltabravo1123 wrote:
So we all know that airlines book hotels for crew members when they stay the night away from their home-base. But it got me thinking, instead of paying $200-$400 a night or even more depending on the city, would it be be more economical at all for airlines to lease a house or apartment for these crew members? Depending on the city here in America, I'm thinking a monthly rent could reasonably be between $1000 to $3000 a month, which surely beats $200-$400 every night. Of course, the figures are just estimates and subjective according to where we're speaking about. A lot of factors I guess can play a role in calculating this as well - how many crewmembers are there a night, frequency of the flight, etc.

Hypothetical speaking, if an airline serves a market where there would be less than 10 affiliated people spending the night, an apartment could be feasible. A 3 bedroom apartment fitted with 2 twin beds in each room bedroom and an additional one in the living area could fit 7-8 crewmembers. It might not be ideal, but I was interested in hearing others thoughts.


You should apply at EK! The trolls in the bouncy castle would love your ideas.
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ewt340
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:26 pm

Maybe Dormitory with full services like Laundry, room service, breakfast and transport services.
 
737tanker
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:09 pm

airtrantpa wrote:
Deltabravo1123 wrote:
micstatic wrote:
Sharing rooms seems cheap and something the workers wouldn’t accept.


But they share hotel rooms......


wn crews do not they get there own rooms

WN Pilots and F/As each get their own rooms. The pilots even get their own room during training, even as new hires.
 
dcajet
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:41 pm

Back during the 80s, Aeroflot stopped using one of the Sheratons in Buenos Aires (they shared rooms there -2 per room). In 1988, SU rented a house in the suburbs for their crews while on layover. A dodgy character by the name of Ivan used to shadow them at all times.
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spinkid
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:07 am

wjcandee wrote:
FItzpatrick Hotels operates a BA-owned (or leased) building in Manhattan as a hotel exclusively for the use of its flight crews. (Fitzpatrick also operates their own hotel in Manhattan.) I know where this building is (although I don't think that it is prudent to say), and it's a nice-enough area, perhaps a little more office in the area than residential, but there's a decent deli basically right next door, and there's a nearby block on the avenue that has within the past 5 years or so become all food storefronts.



There are 2 Fitzpatrick hotels in Manhattan. I stay at it on almost every visit I make to NYC. I take one day trips via train. They always have great prices, if the place is mostly used by crew, it explains why I'm able to get such a nice room for a decent price
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:40 am

UpNAWAy wrote:
PAN AM Used to own a NYC Hotel for decades I believe, or was that BA??? But even than companies tend to find it better to not go to far afield from their core strengths. Airlines used to own Hotel Chains, Rental Cars and Tour Companies.


And Don't forget cathay pacific has or had (not sure of current status) a hotel at Cathay City.
 
melpax
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Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:00 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Quite a few Chinese airlines still do either sharing a hotel room among crew members, or dormitories. CN3 all do that, Air China does it quite extensively overseas (I know for sure they do that in LA and NYC, heard they do it in MEL and SYD but can't confirm this) while CZ and Mu are more limited (MU is mostly in Shanghai for other crew members that aren't based there). MU and 3U (Sichuan Airlines) still make two crew members sharing a room except the Captain.

Michael


A couple of family members lived in suburbs very close to MEL back in the 90's (Westmeadows & Gladstone Park), and they would point out houses that were rented or owned by various airlines (usually Asian ones) for crew accommodation. Though some of these were probably crash pads. I worked in Docklands until recently, a couple of hotels in that area seemed to be the hotels of choice for various airlines judging by the buses that would be parked in the area picking up & dropping off crew.
 
bx737
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:47 am

Re: Airlines leasing houses instead of booking hotel rooms

Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:18 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
Kilopond wrote:
As mentioned in some posts above, airlines used to engage in the hospitality Industry in the past. Examples of original founders or temporary shareholders include:

Pan Am: Intercontinental
TWA: Hilton
SAS: Radisson
Swissair: Swissôtel
Air France: Le Meridian


+Varig: Tropical Hotels
+Royal Jordanian: ALIA Hotel at Amman's Airport.


Aer Lingus owned the Copthorne Hotel Group
British Caledonian had the CHM Hotel group in Spain
Spantax owned the Alcina Hotel in Palma and the Verdemar Apartments in Santa Ponsa(who they sold to CHM hotels, it went on to be owned by Iberostar who had connections with Iberworld)
Oasis Group owned hotels and airlines (Oasis, Private Jets, Aerocancun)

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