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LondonXtreme
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Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:00 pm

How come there is no nonstop flight between SFO and Italy?The European network from SFO has been rapidly increased in past few years. Is is possible for UA or AZ to make an attempt?
 
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janders
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:03 pm

AZ served SFO but dropped it.

Even larger LAX has been seasonal for many years by AZ to cater for summer tourist crowd.
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LAXintl
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:08 pm

Italy is indeed a quite seasonal market. Even some East Coast cities lose their Italy links during winter.

While SFO can likely be supported summer, not sure if AZ/UA are ready to try it.

Maybe Norwegian can give it a shot instead? They already do FCO-LAX, so maybe an FCO-OAK can be on the agenda in the future.
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SonaSounds
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:11 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Italy is indeed a quite seasonal market. Even some East Coast cities lose their Italy links during winter.

While SFO can likely be supported summer, not sure if AZ/UA are ready to try it.

Maybe Norwegian can give it a shot instead? They already do FCO-LAX, so maybe an FCO-OAK can be on the agenda in the future.


Doesn't DY already operate summer seasonal service 2x weekly OAK-FCO?
 
910A
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:19 pm

SonaSounds wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Italy is indeed a quite seasonal market. Even some East Coast cities lose their Italy links during winter.

While SFO can likely be supported summer, not sure if AZ/UA are ready to try it.

Maybe Norwegian can give it a shot instead? They already do FCO-LAX, so maybe an FCO-OAK can be on the agenda in the future.


Doesn't DY already operate summer seasonal service 2x weekly OAK-FCO?


They did this last summer season.
 
716131
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:28 pm

There must be an airline to operate Italy-SFO nonstop in the future since AZ stopped. Which airline do you think will operating this route in the future?
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TWA772LR
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:31 pm

Would MXP work better? Milan is more of a business center than Rome, and the fashion industry is pretty big in both Milan and San Francisco. Plus millionaires in both cities looking to make an expensive vacation.
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RainerBoeing777
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:40 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Would MXP work better? Milan is more of a business center than Rome, and the fashion industry is pretty big in both Milan and San Francisco. Plus millionaires in both cities looking to make an expensive vacation.


maybe Air Italy in a future fly MXP-SFO
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Byrdluvs747
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:47 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Would MXP work better? Milan is more of a business center than Rome, and the fashion industry is pretty big in both Milan and San Francisco.


Not to steer this away from SFO, but I've always wondered if the fashion industry in Milan and entertainment industry in L.A. could support an AA LAX-MXP flight... seasonally?
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pasu129
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:53 pm

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Would MXP work better? Milan is more of a business center than Rome, and the fashion industry is pretty big in both Milan and San Francisco.


Not to steer this away from SFO, but I've always wondered if the fashion industry in Milan and entertainment industry in L.A. could support an AA LAX-MXP flight... seasonally?


AA788/789 LAX-MXP?
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FSDan
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:54 pm

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Would MXP work better? Milan is more of a business center than Rome, and the fashion industry is pretty big in both Milan and San Francisco.


Not to steer this away from SFO, but I've always wondered if the fashion industry in Milan and entertainment industry in L.A. could support an AA LAX-MXP flight... seasonally?


DY was going to start LAX-MXP last summer and cut it before it started... Not too promising.
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Chasensfo
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:09 am

A little info on SFO's one Italy flight that I know of:
Alitalia served MXP-SFO with 767-300s from the late 90s until about 2002 or 2003, with occasional 747 upgrades for brief periods of time. When T2 was still the international terminal, it had become congested at peak times and Alitalia was often the victim, early arrivals were routinely held about an hour on the taxiway inbound. By the time the international terminals A/G opened in very late 2000, this was no longer an issue. After 9/11, the first international flight allowed to land at SFO on 9/13 was an Alitalia 767(I think under fighter escort), and I remember that was on the news. AZ usually parked on gates A11/A12 on terminal A.

Though unable to elaborate, I can confirm that one Italian airline and 1 major US airline have shown interest in starting FCO-SFO, going as far as producing times, aircraft type, and flight numbers. But nothing materialized. Surely there is more demand from SFO to Italy than a seasonal flight from OAK that operates a few times per week on Norwegian, if the times, feed, and equipment are right, of course. Give it 5-10 years and I'd be surprised if there was not an SFO-Italy link.
 
Byrdluvs747
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:10 am

pasu129 wrote:
AA788/789 LAX-MXP?


I'd imagine AA would test the waters with its 78x planes first.

FSDan wrote:
DY was going to start LAX-MXP last summer and cut it before it started... Not too promising.


Hmmm. I wonder if the lack of a true J cabin or name recognition steers traffic away from DY?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:23 am

SQ789 wrote:
There must be an airline to operate Italy-SFO nonstop in the future since AZ stopped. Which airline do you think will operating this route in the future?


Why must there be?
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:15 am

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Would MXP work better? Milan is more of a business center than Rome, and the fashion industry is pretty big in both Milan and San Francisco.


Not to steer this away from SFO, but I've always wondered if the fashion industry in Milan and entertainment industry in L.A. could support an AA LAX-MXP flight... seasonally?


I work in Hollywood and the answer is no. Even though I sometimes go to MXP for work, I tend to go from NYC. MXP-NYC is where the business traffic is, and MXP-MIA for high end tourism and fashion - connections to C/South America.
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Cointrin330
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:29 am

AZ flies LAX-FCO seasonally, and that's probably all the West Coast-Italy market can support. AZ did indeed fly SFO-FCO in the late 90's and into the early 00's but the route was axed as AZ's financial problems intensified. I doubt AA will start LAX-MXP or LAX-FCO seasonally for a couple of reasons. First, AA has no feed on the Italy end, and probably a very limited POS opportunity. AA started seasonal DFW-FCO in 2017 and it returned in 2018 and apparently does well, and likely captures a lot of West Coast originating traffic that would otherwise have been transited through PHL (FCO), JFK (MXP), MIA (MXP), CLT (FCO), or ORD (FCO). ORD probably picks up the rest of what DFW does not. DL's seasonal flights from DTW and MSP also likely pull West Coast traffic to Italy sufficiently that isn't flowed through AMS or CDG. Same goes with UA, which has IAD and ORD to FCO (seasonally) to supplement EWR-FCO (year round but reduced to 4-5 per week November to April), year round EWR-MXP, and seasonal EWR-VCE (with EWR-NAP starting in 2019 seasonally).
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:30 am

Forgot that AA also has JFK-FCO seasonally and it's a long one at that, starting mid-April to mid-October.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:31 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
AZ flies LAX-FCO seasonally, and that's probably all the West Coast-Italy market can support. AZ did indeed fly SFO-FCO in the late 90's and into the early 00's but the route was axed as AZ's financial problems intensified.

It was actually through Milan, though I agree that is a bit random that Milan had an SFO link but never Rome.
 
babastud
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:35 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
AZ flies LAX-FCO seasonally, and that's probably all the West Coast-Italy market can support. AZ did indeed fly SFO-FCO in the late 90's and into the early 00's but the route was axed as AZ's financial problems intensified. I doubt AA will start LAX-MXP or LAX-FCO seasonally for a couple of reasons. First, AA has no feed on the Italy end, and probably a very limited POS opportunity. AA started seasonal DFW-FCO in 2017 and it returned in 2018 and apparently does well, and likely captures a lot of West Coast originating traffic that would otherwise have been transited through PHL (FCO), JFK (MXP), MIA (MXP), CLT (FCO), or ORD (FCO). ORD probably picks up the rest of what DFW does not. DL's seasonal flights from DTW and MSP also likely pull West Coast traffic to Italy sufficiently that isn't flowed through AMS or CDG. Same goes with UA, which has IAD and ORD to FCO (seasonally) to supplement EWR-FCO (year round but reduced to 4-5 per week November to April), year round EWR-MXP, and seasonal EWR-VCE (with EWR-NAP starting in 2019 seasonally).



AZ Served SFO from MXP not FCO.

SFO can support a daily to Italy, and we should see it in the coming years.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:41 am

The issue is the front of the plane. Rome is the political capital of Italy, but the economic capital is Milan. The J traffic between Italy and the USA is primarily Milan to JFK and EWR (when AZ moved its main hub from MXP to FCO, JFK and NRT were intentionally spared for that reason), with some to MIA as well. I don't see sufficient J traffic driving a year-round Italy to the USA West Coast flight at all. Even the fashion industry in the USA is primarily New York and South Florida-driven.
 
babastud
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:43 am

Chasensfo wrote:
A little info on SFO's one Italy flight that I know of:
Alitalia served MXP-SFO with 767-300s from the late 90s until about 2002 or 2003, with occasional 747 upgrades for brief periods of time. When T2 was still the international terminal, it had become congested at peak times and Alitalia was often the victim, early arrivals were routinely held about an hour on the taxiway inbound. By the time the international terminals A/G opened in very late 2000, this was no longer an issue. After 9/11, the first international flight allowed to land at SFO on 9/13 was an Alitalia 767(I think under fighter escort), and I remember that was on the news. AZ usually parked on gates A11/A12 on terminal A.

Though unable to elaborate, I can confirm that one Italian airline and 1 major US airline have shown interest in starting FCO-SFO, going as far as producing times, aircraft type, and flight numbers. But nothing materialized. Surely there is more demand from SFO to Italy than a seasonal flight from OAK that operates a few times per week on Norwegian, if the times, feed, and equipment are right, of course. Give it 5-10 years and I'd be surprised if there was not an SFO-Italy link.



There was plenty of demand on the MXP-SFO fight, especially in the summer months. Yes you are correct on some of the history. I would add more too it. The 767-300 was not the best equipment for the flight and was not the most economical with delays and penalties in the winter months. Now with the 787 type equipment, the flight would do much better. 9/11 had a major impact, and the Dot COM crash in the early 2000's sealed the deal. The economy tanked for a few years in the Bay Area and it impacted traffic. Moreover, lots of demand for FCO from SFO, and flying through MXP was not all that faster then a competing airline. Plus Alitalia was and is poorly run airline, with it's own major problems. All this combined left the flight out in the cold. We should see a new flight launch soon to SFO, Maybe Air Italy in some time. The demand is their.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:47 am

babastud wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
AZ flies LAX-FCO seasonally, and that's probably all the West Coast-Italy market can support. AZ did indeed fly SFO-FCO in the late 90's and into the early 00's but the route was axed as AZ's financial problems intensified. I doubt AA will start LAX-MXP or LAX-FCO seasonally for a couple of reasons. First, AA has no feed on the Italy end, and probably a very limited POS opportunity. AA started seasonal DFW-FCO in 2017 and it returned in 2018 and apparently does well, and likely captures a lot of West Coast originating traffic that would otherwise have been transited through PHL (FCO), JFK (MXP), MIA (MXP), CLT (FCO), or ORD (FCO). ORD probably picks up the rest of what DFW does not. DL's seasonal flights from DTW and MSP also likely pull West Coast traffic to Italy sufficiently that isn't flowed through AMS or CDG. Same goes with UA, which has IAD and ORD to FCO (seasonally) to supplement EWR-FCO (year round but reduced to 4-5 per week November to April), year round EWR-MXP, and seasonal EWR-VCE (with EWR-NAP starting in 2019 seasonally).



AZ Served SFO from MXP not FCO.

Indeed yes. AZ's long haul hub at the time was MXP, not FCO.

SFO can support a daily to Italy, and we should see it in the coming years.
 
peanuts
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:26 am

Considering AZ's lifetime membership on bankruptcy proceedings and labor strife, let's not consider them...There's a reason for their mess and SFO wouldn't save them.
For all the other carriers, JV's and European hubs like LHR, FRA, MUC, AMS, CDG will just suffice for Italy from SFO. This is Norwegians niche to fill otherwise.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:50 am

Byrdluvs747 wrote:
pasu129 wrote:
AA788/789 LAX-MXP?


I'd imagine AA would test the waters with its 78x planes first.

FSDan wrote:
DY was going to start LAX-MXP last summer and cut it before it started... Not too promising.


Hmmm. I wonder if the lack of a true J cabin or name recognition steers traffic away from DY?


Why would AA test this. They already route passengers through other hubs with connections to fill the plane. What numbers show this will be a route that covers cost. After all even the national carrier dropped the routes years ago.
 
LondonXtreme
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:45 am

In comparision with recently announced SFO-AMS by UA(with no feed on AMS end), it will start daily year round, considering KL has already served this route for long times. So, I think the demand for SFO to Italy is absolutely more than SFO-AMS. UA can try a summer seasonal first.
 
notconcerned
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:15 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
In comparision with recently announced SFO-AMS by UA(with no feed on AMS end), it will start daily year round, considering KL has already served this route for long times. So, I think the demand for SFO to Italy is absolutely more than SFO-AMS. UA can try a summer seasonal first.


Under what assertion do you think SFO-Italy has more traffic and demand than SFO-AMS? Considering UA only serves EWR-MXP/FCO year-round, NAP/VCE and IAD/ORD-FCO are all summer seasonal. Whereas UA serves SFO/IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR-AMS year-round.

DY probably captures most of the Bay-area leisure market on OAK-FCO during the summer.
 
LondonXtreme
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:30 am

notconcerned wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
In comparision with recently announced SFO-AMS by UA(with no feed on AMS end), it will start daily year round, considering KL has already served this route for long times. So, I think the demand for SFO to Italy is absolutely more than SFO-AMS. UA can try a summer seasonal first.


Under what assertion do you think SFO-Italy has more traffic and demand than SFO-AMS? Considering UA only serves EWR-MXP/FCO year-round, NAP/VCE and IAD/ORD-FCO are all summer seasonal. Whereas UA serves SFO/IAH/ORD/IAD/EWR-AMS year-round.

DY probably captures most of the Bay-area leisure market on OAK-FCO during the summer.

I think the business and leisure traffic to Italy should be more compare to Netherland. But I don't know why UA serves more flights to AMS rather than MXP and FCO
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:18 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
In comparision with recently announced SFO-AMS by UA(with no feed on AMS end), it will start daily year round, considering KL has already served this route for long times. So, I think the demand for SFO to Italy is absolutely more than SFO-AMS. UA can try a summer seasonal first.


Yeah, both BA and IB have pretty extensive networks into Italy so just makes sense to route through LHR or MAD with the JV. Similar for AFKLM and Lufty group.
 
airbazar
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:37 am

The problem with FCO (and MXP, or anything past the Alps for that matter), from the U.S. is that whatever route you can imagine will overfly a number of major hubs. With the evolution of airline alliances and partnerships plus the introduction of LCC's across the Atlantic, if the demand is anything less than high yield no network carrier will be interested in serving it non-stop and instead will rely on a intermediary hub connection (be it on the East coast or in Europe).
 
FSDan
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:31 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
I think the business and leisure traffic to Italy should be more compare to Netherland. But I don't know why UA serves more flights to AMS rather than MXP and FCO


Why do you think that? I'd venture to guess that UA knows what they're doing in these markets, having the demand and revenue data...
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airbazar
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:39 pm

FSDan wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
I think the business and leisure traffic to Italy should be more compare to Netherland. But I don't know why UA serves more flights to AMS rather than MXP and FCO


Why do you think that? I'd venture to guess that UA knows what they're doing in these markets, having the demand and revenue data...


UA has a JV with LH who are very strong in Italy. It's probably better for the JV to funnel the traffic to Italy via FRA, MUC, or ZRH.
A conx in one of those hubs to get to AMS wouldn't be as convenient. And again, since there is a JV the risks are shared.
 
FSDan
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:47 pm

airbazar wrote:
FSDan wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
I think the business and leisure traffic to Italy should be more compare to Netherland. But I don't know why UA serves more flights to AMS rather than MXP and FCO


Why do you think that? I'd venture to guess that UA knows what they're doing in these markets, having the demand and revenue data...


UA has a JV with LH who are very strong in Italy. It's probably better for the JV to funnel the traffic to Italy via FRA, MUC, or ZRH.
A conx in one of those hubs to get to AMS wouldn't be as convenient. And again, since there is a JV the risks are shared.


FRA to AMS wouldn't be that much of a backtrack if the business/leisure demand wasn't there to support the nonstops. AMS has the nonstops on UA because it can support them profitably.

Honestly, I wouldn't be blown away if UA started a summer-seasonal SFO-FCO flight in the near future, but I also don't think the airlines have got things all wrong with their service levels to AMS vs. MXP/FCO...
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ucdtim17
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:53 pm

OAK-FCO is seasonal but not just summer; it's suspended Nov 1 - Mar 31.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:36 pm

airbazar wrote:
The problem with FCO (and MXP, or anything past the Alps for that matter), from the U.S. is that whatever route you can imagine will overfly a number of major hubs. With the evolution of airline alliances and partnerships plus the introduction of LCC's across the Atlantic, if the demand is anything less than high yield no network carrier will be interested in serving it non-stop and instead will rely on a intermediary hub connection (be it on the East coast or in Europe).


Excellent point. To have a non-stop, there must be a specific amount of demand - and premium-paying demand, at that - to offer a non-stop. Without that premium demand, a connection will suffice to get passengers to their destination.

SFO/OAK/SJC to Italy can be done easily via DL/UA/AA via their hubs and/or partner airlines.
 
airbazar
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:40 pm

FSDan wrote:
FRA to AMS wouldn't be that much of a backtrack if the business/leisure demand wasn't there to support the nonstops. AMS has the nonstops on UA because it can support them profitably.

But it's a backtrack nontheless and therefore it's easier to justify the route given that they have competition from KL/DL. A++ has to fly the route just to keep their own customers from defecting to the competition. There's no such risk to FCO because no one else flies the route.
I'm sure SFO-FCO also has the demand. The issue is not demand or lack of demand. I'm sure both have it. The issue is that the JV can make more money to FCO by routing connecting passengers via a hub given the lack of non-stop competition.
 
777-500er
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Re: Nonstop to Italy from SFO

Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:23 pm

AZ served MXP-SFO from June 3rd, 1999 to Sept 30th, 2001 on a 767-300ER. It operated a 747-200 for the month of Nov 2000.

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