airtechy
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:56 am

English language link in the Bangkok Post.....

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... bottom_box
 
CX Flyboy
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:48 am

Virtual737 wrote:
CX Flyboy wrote:
As a customer, sometimes you have to put up with things like what happened in this incident. Perhaps you prefer the airline you are flying on to treat it's staff badly but know that the guys in charge of looking after your life are probably not the best out there. Many customers don't care who their pilots are, as long as the ticket price is cheap. This has always amazed me to be honest how people can be so nonchalant about their own lives....

At the end of the day, a contract is a contract and the customer isn't always right.


Let's reword that a little.

As a highly experienced, highly trained, highly paid pilot, sometimes you have to put up with things like what happened in this incident. What you don't do is hold 300 passengers hostage for 2 hours and then expect them to sympathise with your working conditions and remuneration even though you don't give a damn whether they are humans, cargo or anything in between (paraphrasing from other posts in this thread).

...and why worry that your employer undervalues you when there are headhunters ready to offer you $500k per annum to jump ship?

I have every respect for pilots, especially the ones that consistently show good judgement. When they don't give a damn about me, my respect starts to wain and, to be honest, I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing how hard done by you are. If your working conditions and remuneration don't match the value you put on yourself then answer that call from the headhunter...

It was mentioned that it was better to inconvenience a few to reduce the inconvenience for many. How did that work in this incident? The whole planeload was inconvenienced right from the start. The flight was returning to BKK, the home base of the airline. Is it likely that if this particular crew did not make it back fully rested on that particular flight that there would not be another crew available to take over their duties? It's possible, but you've already inconvenienced a full load of passengers while still proclaiming that if that crew didn't get their entitled seats then a full load of passengers might get inconvenienced on a later flight.

Fight to retain your working conditions by all means, but don't use paying passengers as the first sacrifice.



And how do you feel about workers (any industry) going on strike to stand up for their contractual rights? A group of workers inconveniencing the customer vs a single worker brave enough to do the same. Is it different? Perhaps striking should be made illegal then, because ultimately if the customer's convenience comes first then strikes are not compatible with this concept.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:52 am

CX Flyboy wrote:
And how do you feel about workers (any industry) going on strike to stand up for their contractual rights? A group of workers inconveniencing the customer vs a single worker brave enough to do the same. Is it different? Perhaps striking should be made illegal then, because ultimately if the customer's convenience comes first then strikes are not compatible with this concept.


In short, yes I am against strikes in the contemporary workplace - contemporary being the important word. To explain why would be off topic but I'll happily do so in a PM if you're in the slightest interested.
 
AIRT0M
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:12 am

Never ever should a pilot delay a flight because a friend (pilot) won't get an F seat. You can sort it out with your company later. I don't want to fly with a pilot like this.
 
CX Flyboy
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:37 am

Virtual737 wrote:
CX Flyboy wrote:
And how do you feel about workers (any industry) going on strike to stand up for their contractual rights? A group of workers inconveniencing the customer vs a single worker brave enough to do the same. Is it different? Perhaps striking should be made illegal then, because ultimately if the customer's convenience comes first then strikes are not compatible with this concept.


In short, yes I am against strikes in the contemporary workplace - contemporary being the important word. To explain why would be off topic but I'll happily do so in a PM if you're in the slightest interested.


Strikes and other forms of industrial action are sometimes the ONLY way to stand up for ones self. It is unfortunate and yes the customer does get inconvenienced however the impact for the worker standing up for themselves is normally much more severe then a slight inconvenience. People normally do not take decisions to pursue industrial action lightly. In an ideal world, management and employers would work to keep employees happy and at least honour the contracts they issue staff however often they do not, and often workers have to stand up for their rights and the rights of their fellow colleagues. The other choice is to walk, and yes we do have an entire generation of job-hoppers who change jobs every few years, staying nowhere for long, showing no loyalty for any company and never getting off the bottom step or two of the corporate ladder. Definitely not an ideal choice in my book and hence the other option for matters like this is industrial action. If you are against strikes, then I would be interested to hear your solution to employment/industrial issues and yes a PM is fine if you do not want other people to see your argument (and yes it is a bit off topic.)
 
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Airbus747
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:37 am

I think the biggest failure here is that an internal company issue (management or ground staff vs pilots) affected all the customers/passengers by delaying their flight by 2.5 hr. Nobody from the company's side thought about putting the passengers first and dealing with the issue later, and from the public's point of view, the most despised party will be those who actually publicly caused the delay, i.e. the pilots.

So whoever caused the issue internally, it's the passengers who suffered and the company's reputation that is hit.

And we know Thai isn't the cheapest airline; why would someone still want to fly it if such issues persist?

Having said that, I wonder what is the correct procedure for situations like these (if there is any)?

And who is most likely to get punished at the company as a result of this negative publicity?
 
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zeke
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:52 am

Thankfully these issues do not happen that often, most times ground staff know the procedures and implement them correctly.

Other reasons where I have refused to close the doors are cases disputes between passengers over seat allocation, apparently intoxicated passengers, apparently unwell passengers, cabin luggage that cannot be stowed, incorrect seat passenger etc

These sort of things are supposed to be fixed before passengers get onboard, however ground staff often want to get the door closed so they don’t have to deal with the issues and go home.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:53 am

Crew that puts their interest before customers should not work in the service industry..
Unbelivable childish by the TG captain and whoever wanted that seat already occupied by a passenger.
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Thai77w
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:40 am

This is the actual story from a source within TG...

That actually the station manager refused to give the seats to passive crew and never communicated with the purser or captain on what was going on. In the complaint the pax said all pax had been asked of they would move. But purser had asked the pax later on if they had been approached if they were willing to move. Only those 2 pax in the news were asked. As they are actually high ranking ex-government officials it might be implied that they actually were given favours by the station manager.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:04 pm

All airline staff, be they positioning tech crew or leisure travelling loading staffs have an onload category. and ground staff have an operating manual with which categories require downgrades of commercials and a crew control to refer contractual issues to. If this was a simple case of them basically overselling first class with a suitably entitled staff member then this would have been quickly checked up on when the pilot challenged it, and if it was contractual, then they would have downgraded the commercial passenger and the flight would have departed without jeopardising the slot. It may well be the ground staff's issue but I certainly wouldn't presume the pilot was entitled to make this decision at all, He could just as easily be in the wrong and be having a discussion with his fleet captain and HR on his return.

I have personally dealt with a number of these kinds of "entitlement" issues with pilots over the years in Airline Ops, they are generally in two camps. they are either down to earth and candid people who just love to fly and who genuinely want the best for their airline and their fare paying passengers or they are the thinnest skinned, arrogant and narcissistic type who never like to be corrected or overridden on anything (especially when it relates to something beyond their jurisdiction) and think that the whole airline should drop whatever they are doing to solve their one issue..

Let's look at some of the similar kinds of thing I have had over the years

I have had a pilot delay a flight by 40min due to them forgetting to order a special meal (it wasn't even a dietary requirement, he just felt like a change) through the correct procedure and only remembering at the scheduled departure time The flight time was already longer than scheduled and a number of people missed an onward connection because of this

Or the pilot who offloaded perishable cargo (and therefore very valuable cargo) that there was the available weight for just to get his wife on standby on the plane. I have also had them try to hold a plane while they called friends who had not been loaded back to the airport because at the last moment we had to offload someone for medical. Of course, we overrode him and dispatched the plane, but only after a tense argument over the VHF where they acted like a petulant toddler.

Or the pilot that insisted that engineering fix a business class that was already on M.E.L solely to ensure his family (who wasn't even next on the onload list for that cabin) could travel there on leisure travel. Again they did the "I'm not going anywhere until I get this.." routine, but we just called the fleet captain, who quickly dialled his mobile and told him to pull his head in.

Honestly, I have so many more scenarios of this type. additional blankets or cleaning over and above specification in the tech crew rest, trying to hold for connections that network ops have already rebooked just because they know one of the passengers' on the flight, delaying a flight because they wanted to stop for a coffee on the way and there was a queue etc etc

There are many more issues with ground handling and cabin crew failures as well, believe me, but I have had plenty of farcical tech crew delays. For all of the above, there were repercussions, which were insisted upon. They aren't a majority of pilots, but they are certainly a vocal minority who think the sun shines out of their bottoms.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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Airbus747
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:02 pm

Thai77w wrote:
This is the actual story from a source within TG...

That actually the station manager refused to give the seats to passive crew and never communicated with the purser or captain on what was going on. In the complaint the pax said all pax had been asked of they would move. But purser had asked the pax later on if they had been approached if they were willing to move. Only those 2 pax in the news were asked. As they are actually high ranking ex-government officials it might be implied that they actually were given favours by the station manager.


You mean the pax who were asked to move were the officials? I've heard that TG staff are pretty much all government/military cronies, so this would be an interesting twist.
 
MeCe
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:34 pm

longhauler wrote:
zeke wrote:
Nothing about being entitlement, it is about the passenger getting what they paid for, and the crew getting what they are obligated to receive.

Hear hear.

I see this time and time again where gate agents feel that deadheading pilots don't "deserve" to ride in premium cabins so do everything they can to make that not happen ... even breaking the rules. The resulting investigation usually results in the statement ... "You are right, you should have been in J, too bad, so sad. Next." It is nice to see a Captain standing up for one of his fellow employees.

If this is a contractual obligation, who cares whether anyone feels it is "deserved" or "entitled" ... it is a contract. It would be no different than if a gate agent arbitrarily stated, "OK, today, I have decided that you will only receive 60% pay for this flight." or "You don't need all your vacation this year, I have decided you will get a week less."

Sometimes, it takes an event like this to make those higher up on the totem pole see there is an issue. Then ... educate all involved in proper procedures.

Also, I am not sure what happens at Thai Airways, but where I fly, if a pilot rides in a revenue seat, then the cost of that seat comes out of Flight Operations operating budget. Technically, it is not free, so it is not accounted so.


Exactly how contracts void /weaken:

cakemix:

a) A management trying axe every benefit for every worker in the name of cost cutting
b) Jealous station manager/supervisor about captains flying in J.
c)Uninformed gate agent and/or sales staff

Management is trying every move cutting costs, increase revenue. After long meetings - in general formed in expensive hotels- agreed with most irrelevant measures like downgrade every kind of staff benefit but some of them like this contracted or ruled by higher management. But once word out, progress should be made so rules must bend or avoid. Here comes item b.

Management push middle man for increase revenue, it is a good move actually, selling empty j seats at the gate . Pushed by management and willing play with authority of captain, they will go and tell the agent sell all available seats including captains seat.

Here is is part c, he/she is unaware of situation, just doing what told by superiors. Unfortunately will lose job if the investigation goes deeply someone should be blame.

It always start with small giveaways, it will grow and became regular, than you loose contract side.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:54 pm

I'm an old union rep, though admittedly not in aviation relate field. When we believe there is a contractual violation, we usually work the assignment, then file a grievance immediately afterwards. That way, we don't impact whatever was happening in a negative way staffing-wise, but we also put an end to further violations right then and there. We'll grieve for back pay, restoration of work time, etc., whatever the violation was.

I'd argue that this was perhaps what should have happened here instead of essentially holding a planeload of people hostage. The crew not given nice, restful first class seats should have contacted their dispatchers or crew schedulers and advised them that due to rest issues related to the seat assignment that another crew would need to be assigned to any other flights they were originally scheduled for. Make sure they know its a contractual violation that the union will be grieving, with their name on the paperwork. Trust me, that will typically get results.
 
questions
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:27 pm

The airline industry is the only industry that operates with the underlying business philosophy that the customer is the enemy.

I understand that there may be a contractual labor agreement to be considered here. However, for two pilots — the captain of the aircraft and the deadheading pilot — acting like two year olds over J vs F in front of passengers and delaying passengers only underscores how out of touch *some* in the airline industry are. I would think most pilots would say, “I’ll take the J seat. It’ll be fine.” And if he/she was truly upset about it file a grievance later. I’ve been in F with deadheading pilots before. During meal service they have said, “I’ll take whatever is left.”

The optics of uniformed airline employees flying in premium cabins is awful. Forget the *reason* and focus on the optics. It just doesn’t look good. “Our Y product is so bad our own employees will not fly in it.” “We’re better than the 250 paying passengers on this flight.” In no other industry does this happen. Kitchen staff in nice restaurants do not eat in the dining room. The optics are just bad. These contractual perks need to be tightly managed in a way that is considerate, respectful and less obvious to the customers.
 
eidvm
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:23 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I'm an old union rep, though admittedly not in aviation relate field. When we believe there is a contractual violation, we usually work the assignment, then file a grievance immediately afterwards. That way, we don't impact whatever was happening in a negative way staffing-wise, but we also put an end to further violations right then and there. We'll grieve for back pay, restoration of work time, etc., whatever the violation was.


But what if this was the third of fourth time it had happened to this particular crew, or if it had been happening often with other crews recently, what if there was a trend within TG of contractual obligations to staff being overlooked or denied and despite greviances being filed, it had happened again and they decided this was the last time and it wasn't going to be happening again?

We just don't know, we don't have these fact or background information to decide if this was a once off and akin to a child throwing their toys out of the pram, or if these pilots had experienced a history of this sort of behaviour and decided that a point needed to be made, instead of just sending in an email to a paper-pusher behind a desk who's likely not even effected by it and just doesn't care.

I'm a reasonable person, and would oblige someone once or twice in order to be flexible and help out with honest mistakes and oversights, but if things become a trend or moral within the company is low, you quickly lose that flexible nature and instead feel taken advantage of, and as happened in this case, stand up for yourself and your agreement you have in place.
 
Thai77w
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:46 pm

Airbus747 wrote:
Thai77w wrote:
This is the actual story from a source within TG...

That actually the station manager refused to give the seats to passive crew and never communicated with the purser or captain on what was going on. In the complaint the pax said all pax had been asked of they would move. But purser had asked the pax later on if they had been approached if they were willing to move. Only those 2 pax in the news were asked. As they are actually high ranking ex-government officials it might be implied that they actually were given favours by the station manager.


You mean the pax who were asked to move were the officials? I've heard that TG staff are pretty much all government/military cronies, so this would be an interesting twist.



Hi mate,

Pretty much all the pax who got upgraded were either government workers or retired.

The problem seems to be the change from 777 to 747, with the 777 there is no first class and F isn’t sold on the route. The ground staff made the mistake of upgrading J pax into the F cabin without accomodating the pilots. I’ve since found out they weren’t just passive crew but rather they were the pilots who had just flown the 747 into ZRH and were deadheading straight back to BKk, effectively working 24hrs. When the PIC and Purser questioned the station manager on why they hadn’t accommodated the Deadheading Pilots in F he refused to talk to them. After some time stalling the station manager came on board to request two pax return to their original seat, but he only asked two pax who refused, he communicated to the PIC no one wanted to move. The Purser went and asked all 9 pax and found out 7 weren’t even asked to move, and once they found out quickly found two pax to move back to their original J seats.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:59 am

But what if this was the third of fourth time it had happened to this particular crew, or if it had been happening often with other crews recently, what if there was a trend within TG of contractual obligations to staff being overlooked or denied and despite greviances being filed, it had happened again and they decided this was the last time and it wasn't going to be happening again?


At my union. we'd have grieved it after the first time. It never would have gotten to the third of fourth time. This is true for most unions. As you have said, we don't know all of the facts. However, we do know that an entire planeload of paying passengers who contracted for a service were essentially held hostage for a seat change. Were I a passenger on that flight, I would resolve to never fly with them again, and I'm usually a pro-union stalwart. The key here is that there is a process in every civilized country for peaceful dispute resolution. That's one of the great historical benefits of unions. Far better to use it.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:19 am

lawair wrote:
Based on what I gather, the scheduled 77W for this flight was subbed with a 744, which created some complications. It may have led to mismatched crew, for one thing, and it also led to a situation in which J passengers were able to assign themselves to the F cabin, which is not sold for this flight (since the usual 77W doesn't have an F cabin). J class hardproduct is also inferior on the 744 (not fully flat) than it is on the 77W, so that added some conflict. I'm not sure about the labor contract issue, but I've read that this incident involved two deadheading cockpit crew that were unable to fly in F as all of the seats had been assigned to other J passengers, and the crew were instead assigned seats in the upper deck (J) with two other deadheading crew. The situation was resolved when two of the passengers assigned in F agreed to sit in the J seats instead.

zeke wrote:
Airbus747 wrote:
The airline has opened an official investigation into the matter; it seems like it was the pilot/s who caused some commotion.

Furthermore it appears that it was someone who had paid for First Class who had to move back.


There were no first class seats available for sale. It was sold as a 777 without F and operated as a 744 with F.

WayexTDI wrote:
But let me ask you a question: when one pays full price for a first class seat, isn't that a contract between the airline and the customer? So, which contract is the most valuable? The one that brings money in the coffers, or the one that links you to an employee?


As I said above there were no F seats available for sale.

When aircraft are swapped in like this often the pilots that bring the aircraft in stay onboard and passenger back, cabin crew go to the hotel. The 777 pilots from the previous day would still be in the hotel for an extra night, and the cabin crew from the previous day would work the return flight.

Back in BKK the pilots would get 12-24 hrs off and then fly a couple of hundred more people.

What I don't understand is, if the normally-scheduled 77W didn't have First Class in the first place, where would the pilots have sat? Or do they get First automatically because an aircraft with First was subbed in? In that case, what is the difference between the pilot getting the First seat vs. the paying customer?
 
cedarjet
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:38 am

You have stand your ground against the company. BA pilots are entitled to a duvet (“comforter” in American) in each crew rest bunk and pilots will delay a flight fully loaded and ready to go if they’re not in there. Accepting a one-off lapse will lead to it becoming routine. Would you be happy to accept money missing from your pay packet? And if you were, how long before it happened again? “We leave when we’re ready.”
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Thai77w
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:41 am

NeBaNi wrote:
lawair wrote:
Based on what I gather, the scheduled 77W for this flight was subbed with a 744, which created some complications. It may have led to mismatched crew, for one thing, and it also led to a situation in which J passengers were able to assign themselves to the F cabin, which is not sold for this flight (since the usual 77W doesn't have an F cabin). J class hardproduct is also inferior on the 744 (not fully flat) than it is on the 77W, so that added some conflict. I'm not sure about the labor contract issue, but I've read that this incident involved two deadheading cockpit crew that were unable to fly in F as all of the seats had been assigned to other J passengers, and the crew were instead assigned seats in the upper deck (J) with two other deadheading crew. The situation was resolved when two of the passengers assigned in F agreed to sit in the J seats instead.

zeke wrote:
Airbus747 wrote:
The airline has opened an official investigation into the matter; it seems like it was the pilot/s who caused some commotion.

Furthermore it appears that it was someone who had paid for First Class who had to move back.


There were no first class seats available for sale. It was sold as a 777 without F and operated as a 744 with F.

WayexTDI wrote:
But let me ask you a question: when one pays full price for a first class seat, isn't that a contract between the airline and the customer? So, which contract is the most valuable? The one that brings money in the coffers, or the one that links you to an employee?


As I said above there were no F seats available for sale.

When aircraft are swapped in like this often the pilots that bring the aircraft in stay onboard and passenger back, cabin crew go to the hotel. The 777 pilots from the previous day would still be in the hotel for an extra night, and the cabin crew from the previous day would work the return flight.

Back in BKK the pilots would get 12-24 hrs off and then fly a couple of hundred more people.

What I don't understand is, if the normally-scheduled 77W didn't have First Class in the first place, where would the pilots have sat? Or do they get First automatically because an aircraft with First was subbed in? In that case, what is the difference between the pilot getting the First seat vs. the paying customer?


If first is available then they are obligated to give it to passive crew. If no first then J class is the next highest class and they get that.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:06 am

cedarjet wrote:
You have stand your ground against the company. BA pilots are entitled to a duvet (“comforter” in American) in each crew rest bunk and pilots will delay a flight fully loaded and ready to go if they’re not in there. Accepting a one-off lapse will lead to it becoming routine. Would you be happy to accept money missing from your pay packet? And if you were, how long before it happened again? “We leave when we’re ready.”


...and if a missing duvet caused a 2 hour delay, and said reason for delay became public, the pilots would be facing as much criticism as the Thai crew involved in this incident.

"We leave when we are ready"... I love this quote because it just screams "bad attitude" and if that is genuinely how you might feel about a missing duvet then don't expect too much sympathy from your paying passengers.
 
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zeke
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:32 am

questions wrote:
The airline industry is the only industry that operates with the underlying business philosophy that the customer is the enemy.


Totally disagree, I never think as customers are being the enemy, regardless if they are internal or externa customers.


NeBaNi wrote:
What I don't understand is, if the normally-scheduled 77W didn't have First Class in the first place, where would the pilots have sat?


They would have gone to the hotel with the cabin crew. The cabin crew from the inbound 747 flight went to the hotel, the cabin crew from the previous day 777 flight comes in from the hotel to operate the 747 back.

The pilots from the previous day 777 get an extra night in the hotel in ZRH, the pilots of the 747 stay onboard to passenger back to BKK.

Virtual737 wrote:

...and if a missing duvet caused a 2 hour delay, and said reason for delay became public, the pilots would be facing as much criticism as the Thai crew involved in this incident.


I suspect the reason for the length of the delay was really to do with getting a Swiss and then eurocontrol slots after missing the initial slot. I have had small mechanic passenger issues which means the target slot was missed by a few minutes and it can take some time to get another. One time I called up they said 12+ hours.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:49 am

zeke wrote:
One time I called up they said 12+ hours.


Ouch. As a well respected pilot with a level head I would guess that you wouldn't let a missing blanket potentially cause such a delay and just suck it up. (No sarcasm intended here, just trying to point out that some pilots seem capable of reason while a minority seem to be firmly in the "Don't mess with me, I can inconvenience you no end" camp and then expect people in the real world to sympathise with them).
 
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zeke
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:56 am

Operational delays happen all the time, you will have a very short life if you think you have to fight it. Just do the best that I can and deal with it.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:57 am

Bangkok Post is now reporting that it was the 777 crew involved in the debacle. Not sure if this is true or if it actually makes any difference, but the following is quite interesting:

Fair use excerpt...

The source explained that for active pilots, crew cabins are available but if they aren’t, seats must be reserved for them -- first class for pilots or business class if a plane doesn’t have a first-class section.

But for inactive pilots, there is no rule that first-class seats should be reserved for them or not, the source continued.

“We have to wait for the results of the investigation. What we know now is that all the first-class seats were taken and the inactive pilots should have been able to take business-class seats back home. But the pilots and the station manager should not fight and hold the passengers hostage,” the source said.
 
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zeke
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:04 am

Virtual737 wrote:

But for inactive pilots, there is no rule that first-class seats should be reserved for them or not, the source continued..


I think the article is wrong regarding the pilots coming from the 777. They were needed for the next day.

No such thing as inactive pilots, if crew are positions back to BKK, they are on the GD as operating crew, they are on duty.

This is clearly the fault of the ground staff, they were the ones handing out free upgrades to first class that caused the problems.

As s general rule you want ground issues sorted out by ground staff, you do not want to create an atmosphere where the cabin crew who are there for passenger safety being thought of as the enemy.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
twicearound
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:53 am

ikramerica wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

I hate to point this out but crew can and will be replaced, especially in Asia. It is MUCH harder to replace customers.


Then why are head hunting firms scouring the globe for high time widebody captain jobs in Asia? Offering Americans and Europeans with consummate experience 500k+ a year?

You can't put some cadet fresh out of training in the left seat of a 7,000 mile flight.

The real disconnect is the public and prevailing idea on this site that pilots are easy to find and experience doesn't matter. If it were that easy, they wouldn't be making what they do.

So true. Experience does matter very much in the cockpit. Much much more so than in the cabin. Beyond 1 year of service, most service jobs rewarding experience aren’t adding value to the company by paying more. Maintenance, experience matters. Scheduling and operations, experience matters. FA? Not so much. Baggage loading? Not so much. Boarding Agents? Maybe 2 years gives them all the experience they would ever need, but still, more easily replaceable.


You're being a bit harsh on cabin crew. After the Pilot work group they come in second as far as training costs to most airlines. Or are you one of those that thinks they are onboard waiters and waitresses?
 
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longhauler
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:04 pm

cedarjet wrote:
You have stand your ground against the company. BA pilots are entitled to a duvet (“comforter” in American) in each crew rest bunk and pilots will delay a flight fully loaded and ready to go if they’re not in there. Accepting a one-off lapse will lead to it becoming routine. Would you be happy to accept money missing from your pay packet? And if you were, how long before it happened again? “We leave when we’re ready.”

This may well have been the same issue here.

For pilots to delay a flight for such a (trivial) reason is probably the result of this issue arising many times and not being fixed. Yes, through one's union it can be grieved but if the solution of that grievance is (always) "yes, you are right (again), we were wrong (again), sucks to be you". With no recourse or accountablity why should the airline fix it? Especially as eventually, if it happens often enough, it actually becomes a part of the contract.

Delay the flight, and it will soon get fixed. Educate all those involved. In this case, educate the gate agents on proper seating and/or educate the pilots on what is deserved with regard to the contract and on-board facilities.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
But what if this was the third of fourth time it had happened to this particular crew, or if it had been happening often with other crews recently, what if there was a trend within TG of contractual obligations to staff being overlooked or denied and despite greviances being filed, it had happened again and they decided this was the last time and it wasn't going to be happening again?


At my union. we'd have grieved it after the first time. It never would have gotten to the third of fourth time. This is true for most unions. As you have said, we don't know all of the facts. However, we do know that an entire planeload of paying passengers who contracted for a service were essentially held hostage for a seat change. Were I a passenger on that flight, I would resolve to never fly with them again, and I'm usually a pro-union stalwart. The key here is that there is a process in every civilized country for peaceful dispute resolution. That's one of the great historical benefits of unions. Far better to use it.


If you were an airline union rep, you would know that grievances can take a long time to be resolved. When they are resolved, the answer is usually it wont happen again. However even after they are resolved, issues can still come up again as management tries to push against some of the provisions in the contracts.

You would also know that things set precedents. If gate and ground staff think the worst that happens is the pilot files a grievance, they will do this again and again.
 
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:04 pm

Yes, through one's union it can be grieved but if the solution of that grievance is (always) "yes, you are right (again), we were wrong (again), sucks to be you".


Um, no. Granted, every country, province and state will have somewhat different laws, but in my country and state (USA, California) grievances can result in monetary compensation.
I've been there when they have. :D And yes, they can take some time to resolve but usually not that long. The simple fact that a grievance over a pretty clear contractual provision being violated has been filed is often enough to trigger a change from management because they know that the filing has put them on record with the administrative law judge, and that future violations in between the date of the filing and its hearing will result (usually) in higher compensatory awards.

If you were an airline union rep, you would know that grievances can take a long time to be resolved. When they are resolved, the answer is usually it wont happen again. However even after they are resolved, issues can still come up again as management tries to push against some of the provisions in the contracts.

You would also know that things set precedents. If gate and ground staff think the worst that happens is the pilot files a grievance, they will do this again and again.


So what you're telling me is that my teachers' union is more powerful than an airline union? Wow...

Actually, once the grievance is filed, the bad behavior usually stops in its tracks. See above about compensatory relief. Some ALJ's do possess the authority to issue punitive damages, as well, depending upon the level of bad behavior from management. No mid-level management drone wants to be responsible for that.
 
MeCe
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:44 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
So what you're telling me is that my teachers' union is more powerful than an airline union? Wow...



No, But an airline management are much more powerful than a school management. Most probably they will make explanation like will not happen again, an online training about the procedure, worst case scenario gate agent lost job. Since most gate agents are third party this unlucky guy will send home for couple days and switch to another airline.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:56 pm

cedarjet wrote:
You have stand your ground against the company. BA pilots are entitled to a duvet (“comforter” in American) in each crew rest bunk and pilots will delay a flight fully loaded and ready to go if they’re not in there. Accepting a one-off lapse will lead to it becoming routine. Would you be happy to accept money missing from your pay packet? And if you were, how long before it happened again? “We leave when we’re ready.”


Correct - there are countless numbers of flights where we're told "there are none left" for us to say, okay, flight doesn't go without them. They eventually turn up, so they did have them, they just couldn't be bothered to chase it up. People may scoff at the necessity for having bedding in the bunkd but on a 12 hour flight to Hong Kong overnight, both ways, you'll need it - it's a rest/fatigue issue and therefore safety related.

As for this incident, we won't ever really know the full details but the simple solution is if the seat isn't there as it should be, offload yourself and have the company sort out the resulting issues. I can see both sides, but a contractual agreement must be adhered to and often those contractual agreements may well state that a passenger may well have to be downgraded to accommodate it - rest seats for operating crew for example when required but no bunk is available.
 
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:18 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
You have stand your ground against the company. BA pilots are entitled to a duvet (“comforter” in American) in each crew rest bunk and pilots will delay a flight fully loaded and ready to go if they’re not in there. Accepting a one-off lapse will lead to it becoming routine. Would you be happy to accept money missing from your pay packet? And if you were, how long before it happened again? “We leave when we’re ready.”


...and if a missing duvet caused a 2 hour delay, and said reason for delay became public, the pilots would be facing as much criticism as the Thai crew involved in this incident.

"We leave when we are ready"... I love this quote because it just screams "bad attitude" and if that is genuinely how you might feel about a missing duvet then don't expect too much sympathy from your paying passengers.


So you'd rather a crew leave than take care of a safety issue?

Hopefully no one lets you near a flight deck!
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:52 pm

BA777FO wrote:

So you'd rather a crew leave than take care of a safety issue?

Hopefully no one lets you near a flight deck!


A.Net post of the decade.

A missing duvet is now a safety issue.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:19 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

So you'd rather a crew leave than take care of a safety issue?

Hopefully no one lets you near a flight deck!


A.Net post of the decade.

A missing duvet is now a safety issue.


Let me know when you've had to land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty in a 30 knot crosswind in heavy rain and let me know how a missing duvet/bedding affected your rest and ability to perform your duties at the most critical point.

To you it's just a missing duvet because you have no experience of what that actually affects. Don't worry, I have your safety first and foremost in mind, something that the get-there-itis types have disregarded to their detriment over the years.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:25 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

So you'd rather a crew leave than take care of a safety issue?

Hopefully no one lets you near a flight deck!


A.Net post of the decade.

A missing duvet is now a safety issue.


Let me know when you've had to land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty in a 30 knot crosswind in heavy rain and let me know how a missing duvet/bedding affected your rest and ability to perform your duties at the most critical point.

To you it's just a missing duvet because you have no experience of what that actually affects. Don't worry, I have your safety first and foremost in mind, something that the get-there-itis types have disregarded to their detriment over the years.


Did it not occur to you that you might use one of the blankets that the peasants in the back use? Or even 2 of them if you are that particular.

God help us if your pillow is too hard.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:28 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

A.Net post of the decade.

A missing duvet is now a safety issue.


Let me know when you've had to land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty in a 30 knot crosswind in heavy rain and let me know how a missing duvet/bedding affected your rest and ability to perform your duties at the most critical point.

To you it's just a missing duvet because you have no experience of what that actually affects. Don't worry, I have your safety first and foremost in mind, something that the get-there-itis types have disregarded to their detriment over the years.


Did it not occur to you that you might use one of the blankets that the peasants in the back use? Or even 2 of them if you are that particular.

God help us if your pillow is too hard.


Yep, it occured to me. But on a full flight with no spares? Not going to work.

Like I said, let me know when you've landed a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty and let me know how you felt taking your rest with no bedding. I'll operate, as my licence requires me to, when I'm fit and well rested. I'm not going to compromise safety just because some guy that hasn't got a clue thinks that my hard-earned licence, and the legal responsibilities that come with it, don't mean anything.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:50 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Let me know when you've had to land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty in a 30 knot crosswind in heavy rain and let me know how a missing duvet/bedding affected your rest and ability to perform your duties at the most critical point.

To you it's just a missing duvet because you have no experience of what that actually affects. Don't worry, I have your safety first and foremost in mind, something that the get-there-itis types have disregarded to their detriment over the years.


Did it not occur to you that you might use one of the blankets that the peasants in the back use? Or even 2 of them if you are that particular.

God help us if your pillow is too hard.


Yep, it occured to me. But on a full flight with no spares? Not going to work.

Like I said, let me know when you've landed a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty and let me know how you felt taking your rest with no bedding. I'll operate, as my licence requires me to, when I'm fit and well rested. I'm not going to compromise safety just because some guy that hasn't got a clue thinks that my hard-earned licence, and the legal responsibilities that come with it, don't mean anything.


You are correct. I've never landed a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty and after attempting to take rest without adequate bedding, but thanks for putting words in my mouth and adding a second insult.

I'll also avoid BA because you mention that missing duvets are rather common and you won't fly without them. I don't want to chance the delay.

Back on topic. The Thai crew have been 'ordered not to talk about the incident. Pretty standard I guess.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:50 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

So you'd rather a crew leave than take care of a safety issue?

Hopefully no one lets you near a flight deck!


A.Net post of the decade.

A missing duvet is now a safety issue.


Let me know when you've had to land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty in a 30 knot crosswind in heavy rain and let me know how a missing duvet/bedding affected your rest and ability to perform your duties at the most critical point.


I don't about all that, hoss. If you can't perf a simple task like that with extremely mild discomfort, that says you're probably the safety issue. I don't mean any personal judgement by that or anything (since I'm talking theoretically anyway). But it is a very small thing to be distracted by, and that's not something you want to deal with at the front end of an airplane.

zeke wrote:
Operational delays happen all the time, you will have a very short life if you think you have to fight it. Just do the best that I can and deal with it.


Fair enough. I'm a fan of choosing battles very carefully myself. A safety issue, even something like a paperwork hold-up, is nothing to trifle with and isn't even a decision. Door stays open.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
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BA777FO
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:54 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

A.Net post of the decade.

A missing duvet is now a safety issue.


Let me know when you've had to land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty in a 30 knot crosswind in heavy rain and let me know how a missing duvet/bedding affected your rest and ability to perform your duties at the most critical point.


I don't about all that, hoss. If you can't perf a simple task like that with extremely mild discomfort, that says you're probably the safety issue. I don't mean any personal judgement by that or anything (since I'm talking theoretically anyway). But it is a very small thing to be distracted by, and that's not something you want to deal with at the front end of an airplane.


It's because I take rest and avoiding fatigue seriously that I'm not the safety issue, but the last line of defence of safety issues.

Extremely mild discomfort? How often do you land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour night duty crossing several time zones? I don't get discracted, it gets sorted.
 
KLDC10
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:58 pm

It seems pretty clear to me that with great responsibility come extra accommodations. Whether it be a duvet, a business class seat or an extra pillow, a gesture from the company goes a long way toward securing pilot goodwill. Pilots get better perks than other professions because their job is more taxing and full of responsibility than other professions.

It also seems clear that the reason the pilots were deadheading back to Bangkok was because the 744 operation was a one-off substitution, meaning that there would have been little point in the pilots laying over in Zurich. They would have had to deadhead back at some point - since it was immediately, they absolutely should have been given the best class of service the airline has to offer.

As others have noted, the fault lies with the ground staff, who started upgrading Business Class passengers into a cabin class which would not ordinarily be sold on that particular route, without consulting the crew, or taking into account the requirements of the deadheading pilots. This is on them.
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BA777FO
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:00 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Did it not occur to you that you might use one of the blankets that the peasants in the back use? Or even 2 of them if you are that particular.

God help us if your pillow is too hard.


Yep, it occured to me. But on a full flight with no spares? Not going to work.

Like I said, let me know when you've landed a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty and let me know how you felt taking your rest with no bedding. I'll operate, as my licence requires me to, when I'm fit and well rested. I'm not going to compromise safety just because some guy that hasn't got a clue thinks that my hard-earned licence, and the legal responsibilities that come with it, don't mean anything.


You are correct. I've never landed a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty and after attempting to take rest without adequate bedding, but thanks for putting words in my mouth and adding a second insult.

I'll also avoid BA because you mention that missing duvets are rather common and you won't fly without them. I don't want to chance the delay.

Back on topic. The Thai crew have been 'ordered not to talk about the incident. Pretty standard I guess.


Never put words in your mouth and never insulted you, just asked you to let me know when you'd done it. Simple request, it'd add weight to your argument if you'd experienced the belittlement you've created.

As for avoiding BA, duvets were an issue, very occassionally are these days, but often it's sorted prior to STD. Checking the bunk is one of the first jobs of the heavy crew member, a call 40 minutes prior to push often has it solved in plenty of time. We're also the most punctual major airline based in London. Even if you are delayed, you'll have better rested crewmembers onboard looking after your safety above else. I wouldn't relegate safety below anything. It's a shame others play fast and loose with it, or are at least willing to.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:08 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Yep, it occured to me. But on a full flight with no spares? Not going to work.

Like I said, let me know when you've landed a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty and let me know how you felt taking your rest with no bedding. I'll operate, as my licence requires me to, when I'm fit and well rested. I'm not going to compromise safety just because some guy that hasn't got a clue thinks that my hard-earned licence, and the legal responsibilities that come with it, don't mean anything.


You are correct. I've never landed a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour overnight duty and after attempting to take rest without adequate bedding, but thanks for putting words in my mouth and adding a second insult.

I'll also avoid BA because you mention that missing duvets are rather common and you won't fly without them. I don't want to chance the delay.

Back on topic. The Thai crew have been 'ordered not to talk about the incident. Pretty standard I guess.


Never put words in your mouth and never insulted you, just asked you to let me know when you'd done it. Simple request, it'd add weight to your argument if you'd experienced the belittlement you've created.

As for avoiding BA, duvets were an issue, very occassionally are these days, but often it's sorted prior to STD. Checking the bunk is one of the first jobs of the heavy crew member, a call 40 minutes prior to push often has it solved in plenty of time. We're also the most punctual major airline based in London. Even if you are delayed, you'll have better rested crewmembers onboard looking after your safety above else. I wouldn't relegate safety below anything. It's a shame others play fast and loose with it, or are at least willing to.



Hopefully no-one let's you near a flight deck and some guy who hasn't got a clue were the insults. The words that you were putting in my mouth were to the affect that I don't give a monkey's about your license.

Have a nice day)
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:22 pm

BA777FO wrote:

It's because I take rest and avoiding fatigue seriously that I'm not the safety issue, but the last line of defence of safety issues.

Extremely mild discomfort? How often do you land a 200 tonne aircraft after a 14 hour night duty crossing several time zones? I don't get discracted, it gets sorted.


Ok, your readback indicates that you're not getting this. Which is fine; as I said, none of this is intended to be personal.

To answer your question with substance (though likely not the sort you're hoping for), I don't do that. But with adequate training, I have no lack of confidence that I could. Long hours, time zones, and having to remain extremely competent are no strange things to me. Needing a duvet, however, would be. I say this because in my universe, fourteen hours means fourteen hours. Not a third of that time sacked out. While I intend no disrespect to your job, I must insist that I'm not impressed with the point you seem to be hanging onto.

Like anybody else in this business, Safety is the number one priority in my universe. But being comfy is not required to maintain your competency. You're conflating a corporate operating standard with an actual safety item. That's where the difference is. You didn't know that. And that's ok.

I'm going to leave you here now. As before, it's not personal and I intend no insult. But I am concerned that if a duvet is required for you to do the job you're well paid for correctly, I certainly don't want the agita of an internet debate hindering your skills during your next trip.

KLDC10 wrote:
It seems pretty clear to me that with great responsibility come extra accommodations. Whether it be a duvet, a business class seat or an extra pillow, a gesture from the company goes a long way toward securing pilot goodwill. Pilots get better perks than other professions because their job is more taxing and full of responsibility than other professions.

It also seems clear that the reason the pilots were deadheading back to Bangkok was because the 744 operation was a one-off substitution, meaning that there would have been little point in the pilots laying over in Zurich. They would have had to deadhead back at some point - since it was immediately, they absolutely should have been given the best class of service the airline has to offer.


I'd say that's absolutely true. Doubly so since there's no good reason not to do that. I do think it's more than fair, however, to look askance at claims conflating safety with perks. While the company should do everything they can, what would a company like WW, AirAsiaX, etc, do? They also have long routes, no duvets and no F class. Is it fair to say they're unsafe because of this? I doubt it.
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KLDC10
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:35 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
KLDC10 wrote:
It seems pretty clear to me that with great responsibility come extra accommodations. Whether it be a duvet, a business class seat or an extra pillow, a gesture from the company goes a long way toward securing pilot goodwill. Pilots get better perks than other professions because their job is more taxing and full of responsibility than other professions.

It also seems clear that the reason the pilots were deadheading back to Bangkok was because the 744 operation was a one-off substitution, meaning that there would have been little point in the pilots laying over in Zurich. They would have had to deadhead back at some point - since it was immediately, they absolutely should have been given the best class of service the airline has to offer.


I'd say that's absolutely true. Doubly so since there's no good reason not to do that. I do think it's more than fair, however, to look askance at claims conflating safety with perks. While the company should do everything they can, what would a company like WW, AirAsiaX, etc, do? They also have long routes, no duvets and no F class. Is it fair to say they're unsafe because of this? I doubt it.


Absolutely. A missing duvet isn't going to impact on the safe operation of the flight, and a bit of discretion goes a long way. I think that there has to be a certain amount of flexibility, so long as one side doesn't start taking liberties.

I imagine that companies like Wow and AirAsiaX would do well to simply place their crews in hotels. To apply the circumstances of this Thai flight, I know that if I were in the crew scheduling department, I wouldn't dare send a crew home in Economy directly after a 12 hour flight. Thai is able to do this because they have a very good Business/First product. Wow? Not so much ;) In general, however, low-cost airline staff will have to dead-head at some point, and sitting in Economy is unavoidable, but that's the contract they sign up to, and at the end of the day, the conditions of the contract dictate the perks.
Last edited by KLDC10 on Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Whatsaptudo
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Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:35 pm

Just another thread populated with jealous pilot haters. What a surprise on Airliners.net.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:03 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Absolutely. A missing duvet isn't going to impact on the safe operation of the flight, and a bit of discretion goes a long way. I think that there has to be a certain amount of flexibility, so long as one side doesn't start taking liberties.


Actually I'm not going to argue that the missing duvet, if left unresolved, is not a safety issue (but come on... it's really not that difficult). I'll happily backtrack on my previous position if that is the case.

The part that frustrates the hell out of me, and my real point, is that it is so easily resolved using not CRM but CBS - common bloody sense. Take the BA duvetless 777s for example. During the T-40 minutes bunk check and you notice the duvet is missing. You go grab a blanket from First or Club World on your way back upfront and then go report it to whoever might get the real replacement (which you would have done anyway). This takes what, an extra 2 minutes?

If the replacement arrives, the passenger gets theirs back without knowing it was ever gone. If it doesn't, when you have 2 minutes you step back from the pointy end and go shake the passenger by the hand. Everyone got where they were going on time, 299 of your 300 passengers are none the wiser and the other is glowing with BA pride because they saved the day and got the personal touch (and probably got another blanket from somewhere else anyway). Worst case scenario is that one passenger is missing a blanket but everyone gets away on time.

In other words, why in the name of all that is mighty does a 200 tonne aircraft need to get delayed because of one missing duvet? It's the kind of trivial problem that gets solved thousands of times every day in the land of the normal. It's a non event. Do I really have to comprehend that someone who can safely land a 200 tonne aircraft in a 30 knot crosswind in the pouring rain after a 14 hour overnight duty (yes that was overly facetious, sorry) is not able to quickly resolve a minor niggle? If the answer to that is "I shouldn't have to" or "it's not my job" then please wake up - it's 2018.

Same with the Thai crew. Do whatever it is to solve your contractual issues with your employer without impacting all of the people that pay the bills unless it is the absolute last resort.

A Jealous Pilot Hater (apparently).
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:15 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I'm an old union rep, though admittedly not in aviation relate field. When we believe there is a contractual violation, we usually work the assignment, then file a grievance immediately afterwards. We'll grieve for back pay, restoration of work time, etc., whatever the violation was.

No old union rep's in Thailand. Pull that stunt, and you will be unemployed and unemployable.
 
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intrance
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:20 pm

I love this thread. Had I been in the position of the active, operating crew, AND assuming it was an honest mix-up and not something that happens every other flight... I'd have delayed the flight maybe for a little while to give the company and deadheading crew time to sort it out together. Call ops, call crew control, who ever you need to sort it out. Give them a chance to work it out with the handling company. If within reasonable time (say 20-30 minutes) no solution, I'd probably have offered the deadheading crew the choice to accept the business seats or take the next flight out in first class. Again, assuming this was an honest mix-up.

Yes, sticking to your guns is important. In this case, the deadheading crew had the issue and should be the ones to stick to their guns. Put it towards the company "Hey, I'm contractually supposed to be in first class, handling company is not giving us the seats, what's up?". Try to sort it out. If no solution forthcoming, choose whether you'd like to go home and file a grievance after or if you are putting your foot down and getting off the plane, back to the hotel and take the next flight out in first class and let the company know.

No reason for the active, operating crew to get involved and screw over 200-300 pax that might have connections to catch at their destination.

Once more, this is assuming it was an honest mistake/mix-up and a with normally healthy working atmosphere and relationship between company and crew. I feel there needs to be some give and take, some flexibility every now and then.

Did I mention already that I love this thread? Devolving into a fight over a duvet being a safety critical item...
 
Virtual737
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Thai Airways pilot on ZRH-BKK refuses to fly because his friends couldn't get First Class seats

Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:32 pm

intrance wrote:
I love this thread. Had I been in the position of the active, operating crew, AND assuming it was an honest mix-up and not something that happens every other flight... I'd have delayed the flight maybe for a little while to give the company and deadheading crew time to sort it out together. Call ops, call crew control, who ever you need to sort it out. Give them a chance to work it out with the handling company. If within reasonable time (say 20-30 minutes) no solution, I'd probably have offered the deadheading crew the choice to accept the business seats or take the next flight out in first class. Again, assuming this was an honest mix-up.

Yes, sticking to your guns is important. In this case, the deadheading crew had the issue and should be the ones to stick to their guns. Put it towards the company "Hey, I'm contractually supposed to be in first class, handling company is not giving us the seats, what's up?". Try to sort it out. If no solution forthcoming, choose whether you'd like to go home and file a grievance after or if you are putting your foot down and getting off the plane, back to the hotel and take the next flight out in first class and let the company know.

No reason for the active, operating crew to get involved and screw over 200-300 pax that might have connections to catch at their destination.

Once more, this is assuming it was an honest mistake/mix-up and a with normally healthy working atmosphere and relationship between company and crew. I feel there needs to be some give and take, some flexibility every now and then.

Did I mention already that I love this thread? Devolving into a fight over a duvet being a safety critical item...


BA038 declaring an emergency. We're below minimum bedding.

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