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NickolayAv
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Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:46 am

Ever since UA ended its IAH-LOS route, DL has been the only US3 airline to operate flights to Africa. UA cited the poor financial performance on the flight as the reasoning for the closure, yet DL flies to a total of 4 destinations in Africa; Accra, Ghana; Lagos, Nigeria; Dakar, Senegal; Johannesburg, S. Africa.

What has allowed DL to operate flights to multiple destinations in Africa from both ATL and JFK (I'm assuming they're profitable judging by how long some of these flights have been operating), while UA has failed when they tried and I don't believe AA has ever flown to Africa (please correct me if I'm wrong)?

Please do not turn this thread into a US3 bashing thread, I'm not criticizing UA or AA for not operating into Africa, but am interested what has allowed DL to be successful in the market.
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Atlwarrior
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:13 am

Both New York and Atlanta have very large business minded African American populations. Delta also partners with Kenya Airways.
 
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NickolayAv
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:35 am

Atlwarrior wrote:
Both New York and Atlanta have very large business minded African American populations. Delta also partners with Kenya Airways.

Understandable, but UA holds the largest percentage of pax from NYC so why couldn't they add profitable flights to Africa from NY and IAH-LOS was a very business oriented route (oil), and Houston has a large African American population, and they couldn't get LOS to work. Also, don't really see how Kenya Airways would help DL's profitability in Africa, DL does not fly to NBO and UA has Ethiopian, Egyptair and S. African as partners in Africa that could offer some connections, yet UA doesn't fly to Africa.
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notconcerned
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:59 am

It could be because UA/AA prefer to route their US-Africa traffic through LHR/BRU/FRA instead of US hubs given the JV. This can allow UA/AA to capitalize on more profitable flights by sending their planes elsewhere instead. As you noted, *A has partners who already provide coverage on direct Africa-US and OW has traditionally been weak in African coverage.
 
peanuts
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:19 am

For a while DL planned to fly to NBO. I believe homeland security stopped it.
Other destinations they have tried and pulled back from. So experience wise, they got that.
UA just dabbled, based on the oil business.
Of the US3, DL perhaps saw an opportunity and niche others weren't jumping on. Their JV partners AF and KL have tremendous Africa experience, perhaps they learned a thing or two what they were feeding into AMS and CDG.
When merger mania broke out in 2008 DL started sorting out a lot of things very quickly while UA and AA were still figuring stuff out. Being the first entrant and established, reliably consistent Africa carrier of the US3 probably has a lot to do with it. There isn't that much room. DL also needed to deploy equipment they had no routes for, the famous dartboard. Well, that so called dartboard theory did them a lot of good to this day. They had hits and misses but during that process were advancing incredible momentum.

Africa flying requires a lot of patience and a delicate level of negotiations with the local authorities. It requires know how, which I believe KL/AF helped them with. Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

Now, JNB, is a whole different animal. That flight is packed with wealthy retired baby boomers going on safari on their trip of a lifetime. Very smart, DL.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:00 am

peanuts wrote:
For a while DL planned to fly to NBO. I believe homeland security stopped it.
Other destinations they have tried and pulled back from. So experience wise, they got that.
UA just dabbled, based on the oil business.

UA did operate IAD-LOS/ACC in the mid-2000s. Does the 757 have the range for IAD/EWR to anywhere worthwhile to fly to in Africa?
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intotheair
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:08 am

From what I remember, the banking situation in Nigeria killed IAH-LOS for UA. They couldn't collect payment on the Nigeria point of sale, which made the flight untenable.

PMUA also tried IAD-ACC for a while, or was it IAD-LOS-ACC? I just remember it was a 763 with a tag, and it was tried right before the merger and then cut not too long after the merger.
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bhxdtw
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:25 am

I'm sure someone with better DL knowledge can add more to my comment but in recent history DL also had flights to Cape Town and I also believe they either flew or had the rights to fly to Cape Verde and Monrovia in Liberia. I think Monrovia was a tag on to ACC, if it operated. Actually now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure they did fly the route back in 2010/2011 ?
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:32 am

peanuts wrote:
Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.
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SCQ83
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:35 am

Africa is a very small market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... statistics

I don't know why even Canarias is there (?) but the fact that Gran Canaria and Tenerife would be Africa's 2nd and 3rd busiest airports only behind JNB is quite telling on how irrelevant air travel in Africa is in a global scale.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:56 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Africa is a very small market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... statistics

I don't know why even Canarias is there (?) but the fact that Gran Canaria and Tenerife would be Africa's 2nd and 3rd busiest airports only behind JNB is quite telling on how irrelevant air travel in Africa is in a global scale.


The 2017 statistics look wrong, aside from the Spanish airports - which I’ll concede can be counted as African -, Addis Ababa is not on the list at all.
Using 2016 stats though, that doesn’t indicate a particularly small market. 32 airports with over 1 million passengers a year and substantial growth year to year in essentially all of them.

Of course that doesn’t mean there’s demand to the US, but Africa is a huge market that’s largely untapped.
Conducting business in Africa is also a right pain in the butt hole.
 
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SAAFNAV
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:05 am

LAX772LR wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.


Have you got any documentation of that? Although I'm not disputing you outright, it does sound a bit funny. I'm not sure a country has the authority to ban another airline's planes based on hours, if the FAA still certifies that it's airworthy.
Some other airlines flies their 767's into JNB.
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SCQ83
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:08 am

dredgy wrote:
The 2017 statistics look wrong, aside from the Spanish airports - which I’ll concede can be counted as African -, Addis Ababa is not on the list at all.
Using 2016 stats though, that doesn’t indicate a particularly small market. 32 airports with over 1 million passengers a year and substantial growth year to year in essentially all of them.

Of course that doesn’t mean there’s demand to the US, but Africa is a huge market that’s largely untapped.
Conducting business in Africa is also a right pain in the butt hole.


Maybe ADD numbers were not released when the Wiki was done. Anyway, the Top 10 Nigerian airports:

https://www.nairaland.com/3807061/niger ... rs-traffic

So there are about 14 million PAX in Nigeria (of which 50% are in LOS). So about the same number of PAX as BNA or STL. That is in a country that has an estimated 190 million people. So about 0,07 PAX per resident. To put it in perspective, that would be like the US having a total of 23 million PAX all airports combined.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:07 am

LAX772LR wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.


Actually it was LOS not JHB. I don't think the 767's have been to JHB. The primary problem DL faced on LOS at the time was underestimating just how much baggage Nigerian pax carried on average. As a result, the 767 regularly left bags and at a point had to be upgraded to the 77E to clear out the backlog of leftover bags.

BA received the same treatment at a point when 747 with the older brown/blue interior was rotated through LOS.
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:20 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Africa is a very small market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... statistics

I don't know why even Canarias is there (?) but the fact that Gran Canaria and Tenerife would be Africa's 2nd and 3rd busiest airports only behind JNB is quite telling on how irrelevant air travel in Africa is in a global scale.


I’m surprised LPA in Gran Canaria isn’t number one , and it’s got flights to more European cities than any other airport in the world .
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:22 am

waly777 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.


Actually it was LOS not JHB. I don't think the 767's have been to JHB. The primary problem DL faced on LOS at the time was underestimating just how much baggage Nigerian pax carried on average. As a result, the 767 regularly left bags and at a point had to be upgraded to the 77E to clear out the backlog of leftover bags.

BA received the same treatment at a point when 747 with the older brown/blue interior was rotated through LOS.


Yes...it was LOS..


http://saharareporters.com/2015/07/13/n ... a-airlines’-old-planes
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:11 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.


You sure it was a 767ER? I log into DL200 today at work and the flight time was 15 hours. I dont know if a 767ER can fly nonstop fully loaded with pax and cargo with out weight retriction/heavy cargo.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:19 pm

This press release extract from 2007 explains the scissor hub before the 77L on ATL-JNB non-stop.

ATLANTA, Dec. 3, 2007 – Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) today inaugurates the only flights operated by a major U.S. airline between the United States and Nigeria with daily nonstop service between the world’s largest airline hub in Atlanta and Lagos, Nigeria – one of Africa’s largest business centers. Delta, the only US airline to fly to Africa, already offers service between Atlanta and Johannesburg, South Africa (via Dakar, Senegal), and between New York-JFK and Accra, Ghana.
...
During 2008, Delta will add a second daily nonstop flight between the United States and Nigeria with service between Lagos and New York-JFK, beginning June 9, 2008*. Delta also will add other African routes in 2008, including flights to Nairobi, Kenya (via Dakar, effective June 2)*; Cape Town, South Africa (via Dakar, effective June 3)*; and Cairo, Egypt (effective June 4)*. With this expansion, Delta will serve a total of seven African cities in six countries.

Delta’s Lagos service is one of six new trans-Atlantic routes to be launched this year, strengthening Delta’s presence as a leading carrier across the Atlantic. The flight is an integral part of the airline’s strategy of international growth to offer more nonstop departures to more destinations worldwide.

Delta customers flying to Nigeria will enjoy the comfort of the widebody Boeing 767-300ER aircraft...


https://news.delta.com/delta-expands-af ... os-nigeria
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:19 pm

Wasn’t DL looking to add LAD back in the 2000’s as well? These were the years when DL was adding international long haul flying left and right.
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:58 pm

If I missed it in someone's post, my apologies, but I didn't see anyone mention that South African Airways is in Star Alliance, and United connects with them at IAD, where one connects with a one-stop to JNB via ACC or DSS on an A330 (having local traffic rights on all segments, I believe). There is nothing at EWR; however, SA flies non-stop to JFK. It's OneWorld that has nothing to Africa from the U.S.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:03 pm

Here are some photos that might be of use/interest:
January 2009:
Image
Summer 2011:
Image
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:07 pm

It looks like Sal/Cape Verde was going to be a small African focus city for them, but it look like it never happened.
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slider
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:12 pm

peanuts wrote:

Africa flying requires a lot of patience and a delicate level of negotiations with the local authorities. It requires know how, which I believe KL/AF helped them with. Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.


This point cannot be emphasized enough. For US companies, it's a freaking nightmare. Totally different part of the world and complying with US Federal FCPA provisions is a real challenge. That's about as diplomatic as I can put it.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:17 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
waly777 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.


Actually it was LOS not JHB. I don't think the 767's have been to JHB. The primary problem DL faced on LOS at the time was underestimating just how much baggage Nigerian pax carried on average. As a result, the 767 regularly left bags and at a point had to be upgraded to the 77E to clear out the backlog of leftover bags.

BA received the same treatment at a point when 747 with the older brown/blue interior was rotated through LOS.


Yes...it was LOS..


http://saharareporters.com/2015/07/13/n ... a-airlines’-old-planes


LOS bags are a nightmare. And unlike certain ethnic markets that pack heavy, LOS pax can be, um, difficult to resolve at check-in. Bu they pull out the fat stacks when they finally have to cough up excess baggage fees.

Manila bags are generally tough too, but the pax behavior is such that they'll weight their bags in advance and be JUST at the permissible limit (literally, 69.9 lbs, for instance). But I've seen LOS check-in counters and it's a disaster. Bulk outs are a real challenge, and since the route is thin anyhow, it's an added operational wrinkle.

As for North Africa, I think politically it's just a little hairy still for some destinations. Cairo tourism still hasn't rebounded yet, unfortunately. Everywhere else is too thin unless you're consolidating alliance codeshare traffic over a hub.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:22 pm

Safety could also be an issue. I talked to DL crew members and there are stories of the crews met plane side by darkened window Van's and armed guards as escourt to hotels. Then the guards take up positions in halls and crews being told not to leave hotel. Scenario repeated for return.

I also heard UA unions wanted guarantees of crew safety and when couldnt be provided, they wanted out of Africa. Since flights were not big money winners, UA figured not worth it and pulled.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:26 pm

peanuts wrote:
Now, JNB, is a whole different animal. That flight is packed with wealthy retired baby boomers going on safari on their trip of a lifetime. Very smart, DL.


Wow that's a wild stereotype! Maybe some per flight during high season (and you'll know about it because they will tell you), but there is more to South Africa than just safaris (nobody here uses that term).

We also have paved roads and electricity and our children aren't chased by lions anymore.
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:36 pm

slider wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
waly777 wrote:

Actually it was LOS not JHB. I don't think the 767's have been to JHB. The primary problem DL faced on LOS at the time was underestimating just how much baggage Nigerian pax carried on average. As a result, the 767 regularly left bags and at a point had to be upgraded to the 77E to clear out the backlog of leftover bags.

BA received the same treatment at a point when 747 with the older brown/blue interior was rotated through LOS.


Yes...it was LOS..


http://saharareporters.com/2015/07/13/n ... a-airlines’-old-planes


LOS bags are a nightmare. And unlike certain ethnic markets that pack heavy, LOS pax can be, um, difficult to resolve at check-in. Bu they pull out the fat stacks when they finally have to cough up excess baggage fees.

Manila bags are generally tough too, but the pax behavior is such that they'll weight their bags in advance and be JUST at the permissible limit (literally, 69.9 lbs, for instance). But I've seen LOS check-in counters and it's a disaster. Bulk outs are a real challenge, and since the route is thin anyhow, it's an added operational wrinkle.

As for North Africa, I think politically it's just a little hairy still for some destinations. Cairo tourism still hasn't rebounded yet, unfortunately. Everywhere else is too thin unless you're consolidating alliance codeshare traffic over a hub.


DL makes a killing off of bags on this flight, it is common to see people checking in 10+ bags in LOS

Not to mention ATL-LOS has the highest one-way fares out of any flight in DL's network (probably around the same range as ATL-JNB though)

I imagine these flight milk money for DL
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:52 pm

slider wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
waly777 wrote:

Actually it was LOS not JHB. I don't think the 767's have been to JHB. The primary problem DL faced on LOS at the time was underestimating just how much baggage Nigerian pax carried on average. As a result, the 767 regularly left bags and at a point had to be upgraded to the 77E to clear out the backlog of leftover bags.

BA received the same treatment at a point when 747 with the older brown/blue interior was rotated through LOS.


Yes...it was LOS..


http://saharareporters.com/2015/07/13/n ... a-airlines’-old-planes


LOS bags are a nightmare. And unlike certain ethnic markets that pack heavy, LOS pax can be, um, difficult to resolve at check-in. Bu they pull out the fat stacks when they finally have to cough up excess baggage fees.

Manila bags are generally tough too, but the pax behavior is such that they'll weight their bags in advance and be JUST at the permissible limit (literally, 69.9 lbs, for instance). But I've seen LOS check-in counters and it's a disaster. Bulk outs are a real challenge, and since the route is thin anyhow, it's an added operational wrinkle.

As for North Africa, I think politically it's just a little hairy still for some destinations. Cairo tourism still hasn't rebounded yet, unfortunately. Everywhere else is too thin unless you're consolidating alliance codeshare traffic over a hub.

Reminds me of the bad old times at LHR T3 in 1980's, the Friday night Nigeria airways DC10, check-in ways always a nightmare with local police on stand by. You could not believe what they wanted to take onboard as hand luggage. :wideeyed:
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waly777
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:59 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
slider wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:


LOS bags are a nightmare. And unlike certain ethnic markets that pack heavy, LOS pax can be, um, difficult to resolve at check-in. Bu they pull out the fat stacks when they finally have to cough up excess baggage fees.

Manila bags are generally tough too, but the pax behavior is such that they'll weight their bags in advance and be JUST at the permissible limit (literally, 69.9 lbs, for instance). But I've seen LOS check-in counters and it's a disaster. Bulk outs are a real challenge, and since the route is thin anyhow, it's an added operational wrinkle.

As for North Africa, I think politically it's just a little hairy still for some destinations. Cairo tourism still hasn't rebounded yet, unfortunately. Everywhere else is too thin unless you're consolidating alliance codeshare traffic over a hub.

Reminds me of the bad old times at LHR T3 in 1980's, the Friday night Nigeria airways DC10, check-in ways always a nightmare with local police on stand by. You could not believe what they wanted to take onboard as hand luggage. :wideeyed:


Lol if it can be carried onboard, we will take it. The ancillary revenue potential on Lagos is a goldmine for airlines who know how to manage it properly.
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IAHWorldflyer
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:18 pm

UA's IAH-LOS route depended upon oil traffic to fill the J seats and VFR's to fill the Y seats. When it started, oil was over $100/bbl. In 2014 crude prices collasped to about $30-$40/bbl, and the business traffic died with it. The VFR traffic was still there, but not enough to pay the bills. Also, the route was flown with a 788,which was probably the right size for the loads and more fuel efficient. Then UA pulled all the 787's out of IAH, which would mean running the route with a 77E, probably too many seats to fill to make money.
As to AA, they have not been very adventurous in the past, with Latin America being their strong suit internationally. They really only started flying to Asia beyond Japan about 5 years ago with a change in management.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:28 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Not to mention ATL-LOS has the highest one-way fares out of any flight in DL's network (probably around the same range as ATL-JNB though)

I imagine these flight milk money for DL


Are you speaking of average fares, including one fare component of an R/T?
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:38 pm

DL has dropped Abuja, Cairo, Cape Town, and Monrovia

LOS is the only place where the crews are told not leave the hotel. I've heard that most airlines follow that rule as well.
 
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:10 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Not to mention ATL-LOS has the highest one-way fares out of any flight in DL's network (probably around the same range as ATL-JNB though)

I imagine these flight milk money for DL


Are you speaking of average fares, including one fare component of an R/T?


I don't have any average fare data, but I am speaking based on experience of flying ATL-LOS usually multiple times a year, and based on one-way economy fares published on DL.com.

If you think about it, It shouldn't be that surprising considering they have no competition from AA or UA
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:39 pm

NickolayAv wrote:
Ever since UA ended its IAH-LOS route, DL has been the only US3 airline to operate flights to Africa. UA cited the poor financial performance on the flight as the reasoning for the closure, yet DL flies to a total of 4 destinations in Africa; Accra, Ghana; Lagos, Nigeria; Dakar, Senegal; Johannesburg, S. Africa.

What has allowed DL to operate flights to multiple destinations in Africa from both ATL and JFK (I'm assuming they're profitable judging by how long some of these flights have been operating), while UA has failed when they tried and I don't believe AA has ever flown to Africa (please correct me if I'm wrong)?

Please do not turn this thread into a US3 bashing thread, I'm not criticizing UA or AA for not operating into Africa, but am interested what has allowed DL to be successful in the market.


UA already has its Star Alliance partners ET and SA who fly into their hubs, no point in competing with your partners. The IAH flight was tried and failed, and I don't think it will be tried again anytime soon.

With regards to AA one major problem is that they don't have the hubs to successfully serve Africa. For example, with LOS the largest markets are ATL, BWI, CHI, DFW, IAH, LA, MSY, NYC, MCO, and DC. However, DFW is too far west(backtrack from largest markets), JFK is too small now+plus would mean competing with DL, and PHL and MIA don't have the scale or O&D base for US-Africa flights.
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gwrudolph
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:47 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
UA's IAH-LOS route depended upon oil traffic to fill the J seats and VFR's to fill the Y seats. When it started, oil was over $100/bbl. In 2014 crude prices collasped to about $30-$40/bbl, and the business traffic died with it. The VFR traffic was still there, but not enough to pay the bills. Also, the route was flown with a 788,which was probably the right size for the loads and more fuel efficient. Then UA pulled all the 787's out of IAH, which would mean running the route with a 77E, probably too many seats to fill to make money.
As to AA, they have not been very adventurous in the past, with Latin America being their strong suit internationally. They really only started flying to Asia beyond Japan about 5 years ago with a change in management.


I think it was right around the time the 787 was grounded as well. I think the price of oil, it being a challenging market to teethe in, and the 787 issues led them to abandon. They’ll probably eventually go back
 
georgiaame
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:56 pm

I have several patients who are Delta pilots who fly the routes. Trust me, they ask the same question.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
flyfresno
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:11 pm

I wonder if Delta will ever return to Cairo with the economy growing and the country becoming more safe for visitors.
 
slider
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:51 pm

727200 wrote:
Safety could also be an issue. I talked to DL crew members and there are stories of the crews met plane side by darkened window Van's and armed guards as escourt to hotels. Then the guards take up positions in halls and crews being told not to leave hotel. Scenario repeated for return.

I also heard UA unions wanted guarantees of crew safety and when couldnt be provided, they wanted out of Africa. Since flights were not big money winners, UA figured not worth it and pulled.


That's not true on UA. They had a solid hotel that had huge rooms, a rec room, drinks, laundry and dry cleaning and a lot of crews intentionally bid it because it was a productive trip and you just pocketed the intl per diem (because you didn't go outside). Safety was fine. But they--and all crews--have armed crew transportation escorts.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:51 pm

I feel like MIA-JNB should be a no brainer for AA:

-best geographic location/shortest stage length for JNB
-connections available to the rest of Southern Africa at JNB via Comair
-strong hub feed from key business destinations-LGA, DCA, LAX, etc
-relatively strong VFR component with a significant South African population in MIA

...and yet it's only stayed in the rumor stage for years.
 
727200
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:52 pm

slider wrote:
727200 wrote:
Safety could also be an issue. I talked to DL crew members and there are stories of the crews met plane side by darkened window Van's and armed guards as escourt to hotels. Then the guards take up positions in halls and crews being told not to leave hotel. Scenario repeated for return.

I also heard UA unions wanted guarantees of crew safety and when couldnt be provided, they wanted out of Africa. Since flights were not big money winners, UA figured not worth it and pulled.


That's not true on UA. They had a solid hotel that had huge rooms, a rec room, drinks, laundry and dry cleaning and a lot of crews intentionally bid it because it was a productive trip and you just pocketed the intl per diem (because you didn't go outside). Safety was fine. But they--and all crews--have armed crew transportation escorts.



And your source is who? Because I can guarantee mine is closer to the decision making than yours.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:31 pm

SAAFNAV wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.


Have you got any documentation of that? Although I'm not disputing you outright, it does sound a bit funny. I'm not sure a country has the authority to ban another airline's planes based on hours, if the FAA still certifies that it's airworthy.
Some other airlines flies their 767's into JNB.


Several countries state you can only operate frames that are under 20 years old or a certain number of flight/cycle hours. They don't understand a 2 year old badly maintained plane can be worse than a 25 year old well maintained plane.
 
CV880
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:22 pm

What DL has in Africa and parts of Europe were PanAm routes just as UA got the Pacific/Asia routes. Many of the Scandinavian & Eastern European routes have been abandoned over the years as have some of the less lucrative African routes.
 
DaveFly
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:24 pm

Because Delta are TOTO fans?

“I bless the rains down in Africa
I bless the rains down in Africa
(I bless the rain)
I bless the rains down in Africa
(I bless the rain)
I bless the rains down in Africa
I bless the rains down in Africa
(Ah, gonna take the time)
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had”
717,727,737,747,757,767,777,787
L1011,DC8,DC9,DC10,MD80/90
A300,A319,320,321,330,340,
CRJ,E135/45/190,
DH8,Avro85,DHBeaver,AstarHelo,F100,ATR42
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:40 pm

Didn't there used to be an IAH-SSG flight back when oil was high? I though it was in the same vein as the IAH-BGO flight.

Thoguh I may be completely misremembering things.

Regardless, I think IAH-LAD might be possible for similar reasons.
 
mikejepp
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:50 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
I feel like MIA-JNB should be a no brainer for AA:

-best geographic location/shortest stage length for JNB
-connections available to the rest of Southern Africa at JNB via Comair
-strong hub feed from key business destinations-LGA, DCA, LAX, etc
-relatively strong VFR component with a significant South African population in MIA

...and yet it's only stayed in the rumor stage for years.


Actually, both JFK-JNB and PHL-JNB are shorter than MIA-JNB.
 
panamair
Posts: 4348
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:22 am

CV880 wrote:
What DL has in Africa and parts of Europe were PanAm routes just as UA got the Pacific/Asia routes. Many of the Scandinavian & Eastern European routes have been abandoned over the years as have some of the less lucrative African routes.


DL’s African routes were started way after the Pan Am acquisition. In fact when DL took over Pan Am’s TATL operation, the only Pan Am African route left was FRA-NBO which DL immediately stopped. Pan Am had dropped its flights to DKR, LOS, ROB, ACC, ABJ and JNB years earlier...
 
CV880
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Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:56 am

Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:19 am

IIRC, DL still had the rights to those cities from PanAm....just because the routes were dormant didn't mean that the "rights" were relinquished. I don't believe that there was any opposition to Delta resuming service to those cities whether it was from Europe or JFK/ATL. PanAm's original routes to much of Africa were multi stop flights from JFK to Rabat with continuation down the coast to JNB. Those routes dated back to the 60's.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:33 am

waly777 wrote:
Lol if it can be carried onboard, we will take it. The ancillary revenue potential on Lagos is a goldmine for airlines who know how to manage it properly.


If you ever wondered why LOS gets 332s instead of (recently refurbished) 767s... the 332 can carry a staggering amount of cargo per passenger.
 
sixfootscream
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:06 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
peanuts wrote:
Remember Ghanese or Nigerian authorities demanded DL once not to use inferior equipment on a certain route or the authorization would be pulled.

That was actually S.Africa, and they demanded that DL not use aircraft beyond a certain age or flight hours (along with other restrictions) in their then scissor-hub operation into CPT and JNB.

So DL had to pull the 763ERs it was using, and use 764ERs instead. This became moot when the 77Ls entered and began the JNB nonstop.


What absolute rubbish. It was Nigeria's civil aviation authority that demanded this, not ZA.

SA used to fly to ATL and codeshared with DL on the route. When SA joined Star Alliance that codeshare ended. DL then decided to fly to JNB themselves from ATL. First they operated A Boeing 767-400ER via DKR. They later opted for a non-stop flight with their Boeing 777-200LRs.
 
hohd
Posts: 943
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Why is DL the only US3 to operate flights to Africa?

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:12 pm

intotheair wrote:
From what I remember, the banking situation in Nigeria killed IAH-LOS for UA. They couldn't collect payment on the Nigeria point of sale, which made the flight untenable.

PMUA also tried IAD-ACC for a while, or was it IAD-LOS-ACC? I just remember it was a 763 with a tag, and it was tried right before the merger and then cut not too long after the merger.


DL had the same issues at the Nigerian point of sale, but yet they are still flying. UA just does not commit to anything unlike DL. Right now the oil business is healthy and UA can reintroduce the flight but I doubt they will.

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