AAIL86
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 am

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:39 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
What is the relationship between Houston and Turkey? What drives that traffic vs DFW?


1. O&G J class traffic; especially to Southern Europe and Central Asia. Throw in a sprinkling of the rest of Europe( due to TK having the lowest fares due to the backtrack), plus Africa, TLV, and a little India
2. UA’s hub generates decent feed for them. Some of this traffic is even ticketed separately since UA and TK don’t always price well together on some routes

I think TK could do alright at DFW; but the people saying they will drop IAH for DFW just don’t know the industry at all.
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason - Benjamim Franklin
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2482
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:45 am

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
Planes4you wrote:
Going back to the TK rumor one of my friends that gave me the news about China southern also told me TK is dropping IAH for DFW and will start service in June


This feels like a honeypot that a company would use to uncover info leaks. Give you something that is true with something that is not. I hope your friends did not get honeypotted.

GSPSPOT wrote:
What is the relationship between Houston and Turkey? What drives that traffic vs DFW?


Star Alliance, but more importantly Oil and Gas traffic to the Sand Pit.

Swadian wrote:
Then AA should launch direct flights to India with the 789, not TK. The problem is DFW-BOM is too far and DFW-DEL is barely doable. Perhaps time for the 778.


Huh? TK direct to India. TK only flys to DEL and there is no hope for a bilateral increase as AI or 9 W do not fly to IST. Maybe Indigo will but that is off topic.

Ah, didn't realize TK was a UA alliance partner.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
FlyingSicilian
Posts: 1613
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:04 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
What is the relationship between Houston and Turkey? What drives that traffic vs DFW?


Business first and foremost; Turkey has a very active Consulate General in Houston (though to be fair Houston has nearly all the consulates in Texas) so just take a look at all the business events they cater to in the area. There is the diaspora as well, though certainly not enough to drive a flight without the business, but it is there and active. Plenty of other Euro-VFR traffic also; example, plenty of my Italian countrymen in the Houston area fly TK for the low fares to Italy, even with the massive backtrack. $~600 roundtrips to Italy for a family of 3-5 makes it worth the backtrack to them (not to me, I stick with FRA/MUC).

The folks mentioning Austin are also astute; while Austin has grown and the new non-stop flights US has help keep (and generate more local traffic), plenty of Austin metro folks drive to IAH to catch direct flights on IAH's international carriers. Even people travel from SAT and DFW to IAH to catch said flights (EVA even runs a bus service from Dallas for their Houston flight.).

There is cargo and the big connecting corporate contract TK has with BMC software and Sysco. I am not looking to list everything, mind you, but the point is there is certainly a market for TK at IAH.

That does not mean they might not go to DFW also, but I see no logical reason that would cause the closure of IAH. They only challenge would be political IMO if relations worsen so much causing cuts to the USA, and we are a long way from that...but what do I know LOL.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5835
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:43 am

KLMatSJC wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


Actually DFW has more Indians than Houston. A LOT more.


According to the 2010 census, there were only 10k more Indian in the Dallas MSA compared to the Houston MSA. If you want to add the AUS one to Houston, it would be well past Dallas.


How about something more recent, as of 2017 there were:

186,289 Indians in Dallas
148,093 Indians in Houston

These do include foreign born and 1st generation.

Also, why on earth would you count Austin as a part of Houston? Thats like counting Bakersfield as a part of the Bay Area.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5835
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:52 am

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


Actually DFW has more Indians than Houston. A LOT more.
Actually, he did not say just Indians. His comment is true totaling up the groups he listed.


Lets consult the data. As of 2017, the foreign born (not including 1st generation) numbers are:

Foreign born Indians:
DFW: 125,591
Houston: 93,002

Foreign born Pakistanis:
Houston: 34,082
DFW: 19,058

Foreign born Western Asians (Arabs)
DFW: 33,309
Houston: 31,355

Foreign born Africans:
DFW: 113,097 (this number is the 3rd highest in the US after NYC and DC)
Houston: 96,650

Foreign born Europeans:
Houston: 75,297
DFW: 57,644

Total foreign born in both:
Houston: 1,646,006
DFW: 1,412,312

So there is a significantly larger foreign born community in Houston, but not from the groups named. Combined, those are about the same. What Houston does have over DFW is a much larger Southeast Asian, Central, and South American population.

This is all moot. The reason TK would never consider leaving IAH for DFW has to do with the oil and gas industry and the Star Alliance FF loyalty Houston. I just don't like inaccurate data thrown around so theres no way I wasn't going to challenge that statement.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
User avatar
drerx7
Posts: 4380
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:56 am

Interesting stats! Of the foreign born Africans... what's the breakdown?
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:30 am

Turkey, has a growing presence in Houston, as well as Consulate. TK also has a dedicated cargo flight to IAH.

TK may come to DFW, sure I don't see why not. They are already in ATL, MIA, CCS, and HAV, I don't see why can't DFW be successful.

Though TK usually, has the cheapest routes out of North America, there profitability though, I am not sure.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
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Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:37 am

FlyingSicilian wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
What is the relationship between Houston and Turkey? What drives that traffic vs DFW?


Business first and foremost; Turkey has a very active Consulate General in Houston (though to be fair Houston has nearly all the consulates in Texas) so just take a look at all the business events they cater to in the area. There is the diaspora as well, though certainly not enough to drive a flight without the business, but it is there and active. Plenty of other Euro-VFR traffic also; example, plenty of my Italian countrymen in the Houston area fly TK for the low fares to Italy, even with the massive backtrack. $~600 roundtrips to Italy for a family of 3-5 makes it worth the backtrack to them (not to me, I stick with FRA/MUC).

The folks mentioning Austin are also astute; while Austin has grown and the new non-stop flights US has help keep (and generate more local traffic), plenty of Austin metro folks drive to IAH to catch direct flights on IAH's international carriers. Even people travel from SAT and DFW to IAH to catch said flights (EVA even runs a bus service from Dallas for their Houston flight.).

There is cargo and the big connecting corporate contract TK has with BMC software and Sysco. I am not looking to list everything, mind you, but the point is there is certainly a market for TK at IAH.

That does not mean they might not go to DFW also, but I see no logical reason that would cause the closure of IAH. They only challenge would be political IMO if relations worsen so much causing cuts to the USA, and we are a long way from that...but what do I know LOL.


Wow BMC, and Sysco? BMC meaning, IT traffic, thats interesting. I know guys from Chevron, Armaco, & TransCanada, that fly TK. I know plenty people that back track to OTP, Kiev, FCO, ATH, and other places in Europe, even seen someone fly to LHR on TK. Money talks haha!
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5835
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:17 am

drerx7 wrote:
Interesting stats! Of the foreign born Africans... what's the breakdown?


Below are the largest African Groups for each (countries with over 2k immigrants listed):

Houston:
Nigerian: 41,125
Kenya: 6,194
South Africa: 5,500
Ethiopia: 5,204
Egypt: 4,085
Cameroon: 3,647
Morocco: 2,517
Ghana: 2,162

Dallas:
Nigeria: 25,787
Ethiopia: 16,737
Kenya: 14,086
Egypt: 6,558
Zimbabwe: 6,777
Ghana: 5,776
Cameroon: 3,318
Eritrea: 3,217
South Africa: 2,856
Somalia: 2,836
Liberia: 2,552
Sudan: 2,057

The main trends are that DFW's African population is way more diverse than Houston's which is much more Nigeria heavy. Houston has a larger West African population (mainly due to Nigeria) but DFW has a much larger East African population. Houston has the 2nd largest Nigerian community in the US after NYC and its not very far behind NYC at that. DFW has the nations largest Kenyan and Zimbabwean populations and the 3rd largest foreign born population of Africans on the whole with Atlanta, Boston, and Minneapolis/St. Paul close behind.
"I dance and laugh among the rotten"
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:52 am

LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


How is the Atlanta route for TK performing?
 
Airlinepilot129
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:03 am

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:10 pm

LH658 wrote:
Turkey, has a growing presence in Houston, as well as Consulate. TK also has a dedicated cargo flight to IAH.


They actually just added a second via Mexico City and Madrid.
Still Working Hard, Still Flying Right.

Houston, TX
Ruston, LA
 
Airlinepilot129
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:03 am

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:12 pm

Atlwarrior wrote:
LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


How is the Atlanta route for TK performing?


I’ve heard it’s so-so passenger wise but does well for cargo movement.
Still Working Hard, Still Flying Right.

Houston, TX
Ruston, LA
 
tkoenig95
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:39 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:42 pm

Any update of this rumor? Total hearsay or political complications?
 
c933103
Posts: 3811
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:50 pm

Airlinepilot129 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
If the first part is true, I can see China Southern opens WUH-DFW with a tag of CAN-WUH. China Southern recently opened CAN-WUH-SFO, and just transferred 2 B788 to its WUH hub base. With zone 1 cities flight right being full, WUH is in the good location to open routes to both ORD and DFW. And WUH government has a subsidy programme. So I can see China Southern open WUH-DFW and WUH-ORD with tag on from CAN and SZX. Possible 3 weekly each from the beginning.

Tag on to zone 1 city also requires zone 1 bilateral right


I don't believe so as long as the Transpacific leg is not the zone 1 city.

You can check the original text, that is why the 3 weekly CAN-WUH-SFO service is currently using three of the zone 1 bilateral quotas and some people on the internet were talking about how they could free up 3 weekly frequency here for a new DFW service by dropping the CAN tag on of the WUH-SFO flight.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.

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