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Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:27 pm
by Planes4you
Two of my friends on Instagram messaged me a few minutes ago about China southern starting DFW.No announcement yet but my two friends know a few people who work at DFW one of them actually is friends with one do the workers.So yeah don’t be surprised if they announcement in a few days or so.I wonder if this is DFWs peak TK might be the next to come as well. (My instagram is dallasfortworthaviation)

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:29 pm
by jbs2886
The title is announces DFW but your post specifically says “[n]o announcement”...

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:29 pm
by Planes4you
Going back to the TK rumor one of my friends that gave me the news about China southern also told me TK is dropping IAH for DFW and will start service in June

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:30 pm
by LAXdude1023
Planes4you wrote:
Going back to the TK rumor one of them told me they were dropping IAH for DFW and will start service in June


Are your friends high? If AA and CZ get cozy, maybe they might be interested in DFW one day, however the odds of TK leaving IAH for DFW are zero.

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:30 pm
by usssla
China southern has utilized all the traffic right if it starts from its hubs Guangzhou or Beijing.
If CZ starts the route of Guangzhou- Dallas, some of the current routes will need frequency reduction

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:32 pm
by simpv
Interesting if true. One step closer for China Southern to join OW?

Planes4you scooped the AF return to DFW before any official announcement, so I'm willing to believe this!

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:34 pm
by atcsundevil
Planes4you wrote:
Two of my friends on Instagram messaged me a few minutes ago about China southern starting DFW.No announcement yet but my two friends know a few people who work at DFW one of them actually is friends with one do the workers.So yeah don’t be surprised if they announcement in a few days or so.I wonder if this is DFWs peak TK might be the next to come as well. (My instagram is dallasfortworthaviation)

Instagram friends do not constitute a source or an announcement. The thread title has been updated in accordance with Forum Rules.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:36 pm
by drerx7
Why would TK drop IAH for DFW when they are in Star?

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:49 pm
by LAXintl
Rest assured TK is not leaving IAH. While DFW is likely a future destination for TK, it wont be at the expense of IAH.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:59 pm
by Runway28L
Based on personal experience, planespotters on Instagram is one of the worst sources you can possibly get information from, no matter what “credidentials” they claim to have.

Even then, it’s not wise to take information from airport employees and share it with everyone, especially if it may be confidential.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:02 pm
by Planes4you
atcsundevil wrote:
Planes4you wrote:
Two of my friends on Instagram messaged me a few minutes ago about China southern starting DFW.No announcement yet but my two friends know a few people who work at DFW one of them actually is friends with one do the workers.So yeah don’t be surprised if they announcement in a few days or so.I wonder if this is DFWs peak TK might be the next to come as well. (My instagram is dallasfortworthaviation)

Instagram friends do not constitute a source or an announcement. The thread title has been updated in accordance with Forum Rules.


I used it as my source last time for Air France and I ended up being right

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:10 pm
by winstonavgeek
China Southern isn't that surprising as they're relationship with AA is getting closer. Turkish is very shocking if they pull out of IAH due to their good loads. Wouldn't be surprised if they launched this with their new 787s.

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:13 pm
by musman9853
simpv wrote:
Interesting if true. One step closer for China Southern to join OW?

Planes4you scooped the AF return to DFW before any official announcement, so I'm willing to believe this!



china southern is skyteam, why would they want to join oneworld?

on a semirelated note, are there any major chinese airlines that would want to join oneworld? seems like a gaping hole in their network

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:30 pm
by Overthecascades
If this is true based on facts, how dare your friend as an insider post this on Instagram before the airline and DFW Airport themselves announce this?Does your friend want to get fired? He can tell you verbally but on social media? The only explanation is that this is just a thought or rumor.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:34 pm
by alex0easy
...and they are going to use what traffic rights?
All Zone 1 rights are maxed out for now.

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:23 pm
by Ziyulu
musman9853 wrote:
simpv wrote:
Interesting if true. One step closer for China Southern to join OW?

Planes4you scooped the AF return to DFW before any official announcement, so I'm willing to believe this!



china southern is skyteam, why would they want to join oneworld?

on a semirelated note, are there any major chinese airlines that would want to join oneworld? seems like a gaping hole in their network


I think HU should join oneWorld.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:28 pm
by atcsundevil
Planes4you wrote:
I used it as my source last time for Air France and I ended up being right

Using friends via Instagram is not, and will never be considered a source on this forum. A source is a PR release from an airline or a news source. Anything less, and the topic is considered unconfirmed or rumor.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:29 pm
by continental004
Ummm...of this is true, why? Sounds like a money loser from the moment the aircraft leaves the gate

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:40 pm
by Airlinepilot129
Knowing American Airlines, they'd probably rather serve CAN themselves. They did the same thing with Hong Kong when Cathay Pacific expressed interest several years ago. They already have their own services to Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Beijing, vs. United at IAH preferring to let other carriers run the Asia flights to Houston. Additionally, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe CZ has exhausted all of their Tier 1 City slots in the US-China bilateral agreement.

Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH, and Turkish Cargo has begun a second weekly service from Mexico City. They will not be leaving Houston any time soon.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:06 pm
by tbboko802
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:07 pm
by Planes4you
tbboko802 wrote:
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.



Doesn’t mean it’s profitable

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:14 pm
by drerx7
Planes4you wrote:
tbboko802 wrote:
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.



Doesn’t mean it’s profitable

You have no basis for anything it looks like...suggesting deletion of this thread until evidence is presented.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:18 pm
by LAXdude1023
Planes4you wrote:
tbboko802 wrote:
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.



Doesn’t mean it’s profitable


And you think they will leave for DFW? A less international market with no Star Alliance connections?

I call BS on this claim. Im acutely familiar with the amount of corporate agreements TK has in Houston and you're friend doesn't have any clue if he thinks they will leave for Dallas.

Also, where is the slot coming from that CZ will use for DFW? Which flight are they cancelling to make way for it?

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:18 pm
by nadavatar64
Sounds too odd, especially when there is a DFW-HKG flight.
TK to DFW actually sounds pretty promising, but I think YVR/SEA would work better before.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:20 pm
by c933103
So what about bilateral...? Or are they going to do it from some other airports instead?

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:21 pm
by mfe777
I could definitely see China Southern on CAN-DFW, especially with the massive amounts of Chinese people that call DFW home and the increasing business ties, and the AA/CZ growing relationship. I guess a 789 or 77W for this route?

I could also see DFW-IST on Turkish, but not at the expense of IAH. IAH and DFW are two separate markets and I think both could coexist.

But, Planes4You has been right in the past about Air France and DFW and people slammed him back then too! Here's to hoping you're right!!! :)

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:01 pm
by Airlinepilot129
tbboko802 wrote:
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.


The 82% LF was for September 01-30. However, I fail to see the significance of that correction, even if it was larger...

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:03 pm
by Airlinepilot129
Planes4you wrote:
tbboko802 wrote:
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.



Doesn’t mean it’s profitable


Actually, it kind of does. Airlines do not linger in unprofitable or challenging markets longer than is financially viable. The aircraft will always be used in conditions that it will make the most money that it can. See Houston's two retractions in service from SAS and KoreanAir, and DFW's loss of KLM and Etihad.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:20 pm
by wenders825
nadavatar64 wrote:
Sounds too odd, especially when there is a DFW-HKG flight.
TK to DFW actually sounds pretty promising, but I think YVR/SEA would work better before.

HKG and CAN are two entirely different markets

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:32 pm
by chonetsao
If the first part is true, I can see China Southern opens WUH-DFW with a tag of CAN-WUH. China Southern recently opened CAN-WUH-SFO, and just transferred 2 B788 to its WUH hub base. With zone 1 cities flight right being full, WUH is in the good location to open routes to both ORD and DFW. And WUH government has a subsidy programme. So I can see China Southern open WUH-DFW and WUH-ORD with tag on from CAN and SZX. Possible 3 weekly each from the beginning.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:01 pm
by Airlinepilot129
chonetsao wrote:
If the first part is true, I can see China Southern opens WUH-DFW with a tag of CAN-WUH. China Southern recently opened CAN-WUH-SFO, and just transferred 2 B788 to its WUH hub base. With zone 1 cities flight right being full, WUH is in the good location to open routes to both ORD and DFW. And WUH government has a subsidy programme. So I can see China Southern open WUH-DFW and WUH-ORD with tag on from CAN and SZX. Possible 3 weekly each from the beginning.


Interesting proposition, do they have the airframes to keep adding tags via WUH?

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:13 pm
by c933103
chonetsao wrote:
If the first part is true, I can see China Southern opens WUH-DFW with a tag of CAN-WUH. China Southern recently opened CAN-WUH-SFO, and just transferred 2 B788 to its WUH hub base. With zone 1 cities flight right being full, WUH is in the good location to open routes to both ORD and DFW. And WUH government has a subsidy programme. So I can see China Southern open WUH-DFW and WUH-ORD with tag on from CAN and SZX. Possible 3 weekly each from the beginning.

Tag on to zone 1 city also requires zone 1 bilateral right

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:17 pm
by nomorerjs
While it would be nice to see this here at DFW, I’ll believe it when I see it.

No way TK is dropping Star Hub IAH for DFW. Maybe DFW in the next few years they’ll be at DFW.

Chineses carriers on the other hand could care less about profits since most are subsidized.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:18 pm
by Airlinepilot129
c933103 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
If the first part is true, I can see China Southern opens WUH-DFW with a tag of CAN-WUH. China Southern recently opened CAN-WUH-SFO, and just transferred 2 B788 to its WUH hub base. With zone 1 cities flight right being full, WUH is in the good location to open routes to both ORD and DFW. And WUH government has a subsidy programme. So I can see China Southern open WUH-DFW and WUH-ORD with tag on from CAN and SZX. Possible 3 weekly each from the beginning.

Tag on to zone 1 city also requires zone 1 bilateral right


I don't believe so as long as the Transpacific leg is not the zone 1 city.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:31 pm
by planemanofnz
Interesting - they also want to go to South America within three years, so DFW, with its AA hub (and CZ and AA being in bed together) could be a candidate for the transit stop.

Cheers,

C.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:48 pm
by chonetsao
c933103 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
If the first part is true, I can see China Southern opens WUH-DFW with a tag of CAN-WUH. China Southern recently opened CAN-WUH-SFO, and just transferred 2 B788 to its WUH hub base. With zone 1 cities flight right being full, WUH is in the good location to open routes to both ORD and DFW. And WUH government has a subsidy programme. So I can see China Southern open WUH-DFW and WUH-ORD with tag on from CAN and SZX. Possible 3 weekly each from the beginning.

Tag on to zone 1 city also requires zone 1 bilateral right


I don't have the regulation in hand. But even if it is not allowed China Southern could still tag the CAN WUH segment with a different flight number to meet the legal requirement.

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:45 pm
by Miami
Planes4you wrote:
TK is dropping IAH for DFW and will start service in June

Thanks for the laugh mate. Turkish dropping a Star hub for a OneWorld hub?! :rotfl:

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:11 pm
by jetero
chonetsao wrote:
c933103 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
If the first part is true, I can see China Southern opens WUH-DFW with a tag of CAN-WUH. China Southern recently opened CAN-WUH-SFO, and just transferred 2 B788 to its WUH hub base. With zone 1 cities flight right being full, WUH is in the good location to open routes to both ORD and DFW. And WUH government has a subsidy programme. So I can see China Southern open WUH-DFW and WUH-ORD with tag on from CAN and SZX. Possible 3 weekly each from the beginning.

Tag on to zone 1 city also requires zone 1 bilateral right


I don't have the regulation in hand. But even if it is not allowed China Southern could still tag the CAN WUH segment with a different flight number to meet the legal requirement.


Is there any advantage over connecting anyway?

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:21 pm
by chonetsao
jetero wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Tag on to zone 1 city also requires zone 1 bilateral right


I don't have the regulation in hand. But even if it is not allowed China Southern could still tag the CAN WUH segment with a different flight number to meet the legal requirement.


Is there any advantage over connecting anyway?


Not for passengers. But there are advantages for China Southern. First WUH is a secondary hub for CZ, but a cheaper hub to operate than CAN. Second, WUH is a better located transpacific hub than CAN. Third, such flight would qualify for government subsidies. Fourth, China Southern can mitigate some risks of the new route until market matures. One of the examples is CAN-FCO flight. It initially operated as CAN-WUH-FCO. Once the route is established CZ opened CAN-FCO non stop on top of the stopover one. Finally, the connecting flight could add frequency when the bilateral right for tier 1 city ran out. One of the examples is CAN-WUH-SFO flight.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:58 pm
by tkoenig95
Planes4you wrote:
tbboko802 wrote:
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.



Doesn’t mean it’s profitable

Doesn't mean they're going to leave.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:11 pm
by LAXdude1023
tkoenig95 wrote:
Planes4you wrote:
tbboko802 wrote:
"Turkish Airlines just posted 82% load factors at IAH"

Actually, Turkish Air had a 91 percent LF in August on the Houston-Istanbul route.



Doesn’t mean it’s profitable

Doesn't mean they're going to leave.


I haven’t seen TKs P&L but they have a massive number of corporate contacts in Houston. What kind of crazy person would think they would make more money in Dallas? The travel from DFW to that region of the world is ridiculously India heavy and there’s no way they could get the fare premiums they get out of IAH.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:27 pm
by LH658
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:29 pm
by Swadian
usssla wrote:
China southern has utilized all the traffic right if it starts from its hubs Guangzhou or Beijing.
If CZ starts the route of Guangzhou- Dallas, some of the current routes will need frequency reduction


I think people are forgetting that CZ uses A380s on many flights to the US. A current A380 frequency could be reduced to feed DFW, and yes, WUH is an option because it's a hub for CZ without competing with DFW-PEK or DFW-HKG on AA.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:29 pm
by LAXdude1023
LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


Actually DFW has more Indians than Houston. A LOT more.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:33 pm
by Swadian
LAXdude1023 wrote:
LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


Actually DFW has more Indians than Houston. A LOT more.


Then AA should launch direct flights to India with the 789, not TK. The problem is DFW-BOM is too far and DFW-DEL is barely doable. Perhaps time for the 778.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:54 pm
by GSPSPOT
What is the relationship between Houston and Turkey? What drives that traffic vs DFW?

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:09 am
by 910A
Swadian wrote:

I think people are forgetting that CZ uses A380s on many flights to the US. A current A380 frequency could be reduced to feed DFW, and yes, WUH is an option because it's a hub for CZ without competing with DFW-PEK or DFW-HKG on AA.


Currently CZ operates one 380 flight a day that is to LAX. SFO is a spilt between a 77W and a 787. JFK is all 77W. Toronto is 77W and Vancouver is 787. Those are the only current North American destinations that I am aware of.

Re: China Southen announces dfw

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 am
by YouGeeElWhy
Planes4you wrote:
Going back to the TK rumor one of my friends that gave me the news about China southern also told me TK is dropping IAH for DFW and will start service in June


This feels like a honeypot that a company would use to uncover info leaks. Give you something that is true with something that is not. I hope your friends did not get honeypotted.

GSPSPOT wrote:
What is the relationship between Houston and Turkey? What drives that traffic vs DFW?


Star Alliance, but more importantly Oil and Gas traffic to the Sand Pit.

Swadian wrote:
Then AA should launch direct flights to India with the 789, not TK. The problem is DFW-BOM is too far and DFW-DEL is barely doable. Perhaps time for the 778.


Huh? TK direct to India. TK only flys to DEL and there is no hope for a bilateral increase as AI or 9 W do not fly to IST. Maybe Indigo will but that is off topic.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:26 am
by YouGeeElWhy
LAXdude1023 wrote:
LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


Actually DFW has more Indians than Houston. A LOT more.
Actually, he did not say just Indians. His comment is true totaling up the groups he listed.

Re: Unconfirmed: China Southern to DFW

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:37 am
by KLMatSJC
LAXdude1023 wrote:
LH658 wrote:
TK is not leaving IAH, this guy is nuts. I know several TK direct staff at IAH, and at other stations. TK hauls plenty cargo on there IAH flight, plus with energy business back up, they would be dumb to leave IAH. TK, pulls alot more ethnic VFR traffic which IAH, has more of then DFW Pakistani, Indians, Arabs, Africans, Europeans, and Etc. Plus IAH is a star HUB, even though their relation with UA isn't that strong. This thread should be closed, as it has no facts.


Actually DFW has more Indians than Houston. A LOT more.


According to the 2010 census, there were only 10k more Indian in the Dallas MSA compared to the Houston MSA. If you want to add the AUS one to Houston, it would be well past Dallas.