marcelh
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:47 pm

bigjku wrote:
marcelh wrote:
And don’t forget Boeing wants to increase the production of the B787 and therefore they have to sell a lot of planes


They are going to 14 and from what I heard from someone could max out at 16 a month if sales supported it on the present footprint..


And that’s I think Boeing wants this order badly.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:12 pm

LHG held their noses and ordered the 748i.
LHG held their noses and ordered the 779.
LHG held their noses and ordered the 77W.
LHG can certainly hold their nose again and order the 787.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
LHPII
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:19 pm

In my opinion this order goes to Boeing for several reasons:

1.) LH group needs an aircraft smaller then A359, to replace OS 767/777 fleet as B789/10 is definitely better fit then only A359 or a combo B789/A359.

2.) A330 fleet will most probably be used as a source for EW longhual expansion as they are stll young enough, but much cheaper to operate within EW cost base. Therefore LH might also need it for a A330/343 replacement.

3.) LX might also need a few for the above mentioned reason

4.) LH has orderd 25 A359 + 30 options. Why would it now issue RFP if it could easily just convert extra options into firm orders.

5.) Lufthansa Technik requires B787 to get a technical experience on the type, therfore LH also operates both engine types on both A320ceo/neo versions

So i would definitely bet on 787 for this order + some A350 options conversion and possibly 35K for MUC as I‘m pretty much sure 779 will go to FRA and LH needs something bigger in MUC to replace A346s there. MUC will stay only Airbus for commonality reasons, no matter what LH press releases just to put the pressure on FRAport.
 
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:31 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Since the the orders for the A350 and the B777-9 were placed years ago in a competition where the B787 lost out and was considered unsuitable, requirements may have changed. There now seems to be a distinction between Lufthansa as the premium carrier and the other group members Swiss, Austrian and Eurowings as less premium and more lower cost carriers. With Swiss already operating the B777-300 with 10 abreast Y, a B787 with 9 abreast Y would be a matching fit - expediting the journey to the bottom. The same "quality" standards may apply now for Austrian and Eurowings. :crazy:

In view of these considerations I would not rule out an order for the B787 for those carriers, though I believe Lufthansa mainline operating the B787 is unlikely. Time will tell


Cheers

Peter


SWISS being less premium then Lufthansa, where did you ever get such a thing ? SWISS is the most premium airline in the LH Group equal to or superior to Lufthansa itself. SWISS makes more $$$ then LH. Every SWISS A330, A340 and 777 has First Class as wells as Business and Y Class. Edelweiss is the Switzerland leisure airline with more economy less Business Class and no First Class. 787 works for everyone else so why not LH group airlines, the A350-900 may be too big for Austrian and SWISS so and balance of 787-8/9 would work well.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:41 pm

marcelh wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
On TATL I would not be surprise if the 787 is a better fit.

Delta must be insane to use the A350 TATL


I said the 787 might be a better fit to replace A340s and maybe even A330s on TATL. I’m not saying the A350 is a horrible TATL aircraft it’s probably pretty damn good. Size wise I think the 787 might be better. AF and their 789s are a nice example.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:44 pm

CX747 wrote:
Hard to see the 787 winning this one. Boeing could couple this as choosing the best aircraft for the mission ie 787-8/9/10. This could allow for bettering tailoring for the mission set over the one size fits all A350-900. BA is really using the different 787 sizes to meet each of its mission profiles.

This is what LH does. Note the A380/747/777/A350/A340/A330 wide body lineup.

marcelh wrote:
And don’t forget Boeing wants to increase the production of the B787 and therefore they have to sell a lot of planes

A lot? 12 months x 2 per month = 24, and they keep getting pop up orders like UA with 9*787-9 not to mention backlog.

marcelh wrote:
And that’s I think Boeing wants this order badly.

That suggests they are going to rate 14 based on speculation rather than insight.

I'm sure they'd love to get this order and that they will bid aggressively, but it's not like it's make or break.
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Eyad89
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:48 pm

marcelh wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
On TATL I would not be surprise if the 787 is a better fit.

Delta must be insane to use the A350 TATL


And SQ flies its A359 on 6-hour routes even though they've got a bunch of 78X, plus DL flies its A359 on the AMS route only. It's more of an exception rather than the rule.
 
marcelh
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:54 pm

Revelation wrote:

marcelh wrote:
And don’t forget Boeing wants to increase the production of the B787 and therefore they have to sell a lot of planes

A lot? 12 months x 2 per month = 24, and they keep getting pop up orders like UA with 9*787-9 not to mention backlog.

marcelh wrote:
And that’s I think Boeing wants this order badly.

That suggests they are going to rate 14 based on speculation rather than insight.

No, they want a steady output for several years at 14 per month, so they need more orders from several airlines.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:57 pm

george77300 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Lol ok. I'm sure Boeing will get right to work of that proposal. There's no way LH could say they are giving the 787 serious consideration with a straight face.


LH orders for the entire group. Could be 787 at LX to replace A340. They did give them 777 recently. Also at OS down the road I see 787 possible to replace the 767.


Swiss has only 5 A340 remaining. Their A330 are still very young (oldest is 9.6 years old, youngest 5.6), and their 77W brand new. I don't really see some new B787 in their future fleet.

Austrian, on the other side, has 6 old 767 (22.7 years old on average - but with a very good-looking cabin btw) and 6 old 777-200. An order of 787-8/9 for them is a possibility. But didn't Lufthansa say recently that they weren't considering buying new aircraft for Austrian Airlines at the moment, because OS wasn't making enough money?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:03 pm

marcelh wrote:
No, they want a steady output for several years at 14 per month, so they need more orders from several airlines.

Right, but they must have a good comfort level in where such orders are coming from, or they wouldn't take the risk.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Don't get Lufthansa's fleet policy. Potentially, adding another type, while still holding options for the A350. They seems to be the Thai Airways of western Europe: add all widebody types currently in service: they might operate the A330/B787/A350/B779/B748i/A380 by 2022 :shock:

Or might the 787 be ordered instead of the B777-9 order. That order seems to be under internal scrutiny as well.


The LH Group operates over 650 aircraft though. This could be an order for OS, SN, and EW.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:23 pm

sergegva wrote:
george77300 wrote:
Swiss has only 5 A340 remaining. Their A330 are still very young (oldest is 9.6 years old, youngest 5.6), and their 77W brand new. I don't really see some new B787 in their future fleet.


One scenario I could imagine coming to pass if Boeing's pencil is sharp enough: ordering 789 for Swiss (and likely Austrian at the same time), and transferring the Swiss 333 to mainline LH to replace some remaining 343.
 
LH658
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:32 pm

Whatever aircraft they choose, they need to update there business class. I love there service in all 4 cabins, though business class can use a new updated cabin.
 
marcelh
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
marcelh wrote:
No, they want a steady output for several years at 14 per month, so they need more orders from several airlines.

Right, but they must have a good comfort level in where such orders are coming from, or they wouldn't take the risk.

Hopefully they aren’t too confident....
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:11 pm

bigjku wrote:
marcelh wrote:
And don’t forget Boeing wants to increase the production of the B787 and therefore they have to sell a lot of planes


They are going to 14 and from what I heard from someone could max out at 16 a month if sales supported it on the present footprint.

Airbus really needs to find a way to get to 13 a month on the A350 but I haven’t heard anything on that since first quarter. I don’t think that happens next year or we would already know.


With only 61 A350's delivered by 30 Sept (about 7 per month), Airbus would seem to have a fair way to go to get to 156 (13 per month) in the near term.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
m007j
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:14 pm

Heavierthanair wrote:
G'day

Since the the orders for the A350 and the B777-9 were placed years ago in a competition where the B787 lost out and was considered unsuitable, requirements may have changed. There now seems to be a distinction between Lufthansa as the premium carrier and the other group members Swiss, Austrian and Eurowings as less premium and more lower cost carriers. With Swiss already operating the B777-300 with 10 abreast Y, a B787 with 9 abreast Y would be a matching fit - expediting the journey to the bottom. The same "quality" standards may apply now for Austrian and Eurowings. :crazy:

In view of these considerations I would not rule out an order for the B787 for those carriers, though I believe Lufthansa mainline operating the B787 is unlikely. Time will tell


Cheers

Peter


Are you trying to say that the A350 is a "premium" aircraft and the 787 is a "discount" aircraft? What an absurd argument, and I'm not even a Boeing fanboy. Claiming that the 787 is of lesser quality is just a plain silly thing to say, both aircraft are stupendous and they each have their role. But your argument has nothing in it other than European nationalism and the insinuation that the LH group might try to feed the European public a bunch of baloney by assigning the 787 to their "less premium" brands and therefore putting it in their minds that the 787 is an inferior aircraft is simply ridiculous. You've clearly been around this place for a long time, you should know better than to stoke the silly B vs A argument like this.
 
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:17 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
There is no way in hell LH is going to order the 787.


Why not? If the price is right and it is more efficient on transatlantic flights, why wouldnt they consider it?
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:29 pm

LH658 wrote:
Whatever aircraft they choose, they need to update there business class. I love there service in all 4 cabins, though business class can use a new updated cabin.


There is a new one coming with the 77X.

Back to topic, I reckon this order would be for 2022/23-2026 or so, but I would have expected a bigger order.

If they're looking for a buy-back agreement it can only mean the A346s. Some of them were already scrapped by LH themselves, as they can use the parts on their 333/343/346s.
 
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:

With only 61 A350's delivered by 30 Sept (about 7 per month), Airbus would seem to have a fair way to go to get to 156 (13 per month) in the near term.

I think this has been discussed before on other threads, 13/month is at best for 11 months of the year. And they always seem to deliver more in the latter part of the year. But they will need to step up the pace to get to "13/month"
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:37 pm

I think that LH will order A330neo's soon and in a huge quantity.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:56 pm

I don't buy the "LH technik is an advantage line." Considering that some competitor airlines send lots of their maintenance to third world countries, paying for maintenance in Germany must be unbelievably expensive for them.

Lets face it: LH is a quasi-subsidized, too-big-to-fail, Euro megacarrier. AND they're arrogant to boot (perhaps becaus they're too big to fail and they know it).The over-riding factor behind LH fleet decisions is political, not economic. Witness the A380 AND 747-8 orders. 0 for 2 on airplanes that were too big for any sensible airline in the world, and now both face extinction. Ordering one would have been a mistake. Ordering both was the very height of folly. They went for the trifecta in stupidity with the 777X, another too big, too heavy, DOA airplane that is "selling poorly right now" and will never sell in significant numbers imho. To now seriously consider 787s or 350s is almost beyond belief.
 
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:25 am

SteelChair wrote:
I don't buy the "LH technik is an advantage line." Considering that some competitor airlines send lots of their maintenance to third world countries, paying for maintenance in Germany must be unbelievably expensive for them.

Lets face it: LH is a quasi-subsidized, too-big-to-fail, Euro megacarrier. AND they're arrogant to boot (perhaps becaus they're too big to fail and they know it).The over-riding factor behind LH fleet decisions is political, not economic. Witness the A380 AND 747-8 orders. 0 for 2 on airplanes that were too big for any sensible airline in the world, and now both face extinction. Ordering one would have been a mistake. Ordering both was the very height of folly. They went for the trifecta in stupidity with the 777X, another too big, too heavy, DOA airplane that is "selling poorly right now" and will never sell in significant numbers imho. To now seriously consider 787s or 350s is almost beyond belief.

two things
first LHT is one of the largest MROs in the world, so obviously it isn't too expensive or they wouldn't be as large as they are.

more importantly, LHT has operations all over the world. They do heavy work in places like MNL and BQN so its not just Germany.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:26 am

trex8 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

With only 61 A350's delivered by 30 Sept (about 7 per month), Airbus would seem to have a fair way to go to get to 156 (13 per month) in the near term.

I think this has been discussed before on other threads, 13/month is at best for 11 months of the year. And they always seem to deliver more in the latter part of the year. But they will need to step up the pace to get to "13/month"


If Boeing is heading to producing 787's at 14/month on a 12 month year for an annual production of 168 and Airbus is planning on producing A350's at 13/month on an 11 month year for an annual production of 143, who will have the most airplanes to sell?

As of 30 September, 2018, 61 A350's have been delivered vs 106 787's. Boeing's >50% annual production lead gives it the opportunity to sell more airplanes and Airbus doesn't seem to be closing the gap very quickly.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
bigjku
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
trex8 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

With only 61 A350's delivered by 30 Sept (about 7 per month), Airbus would seem to have a fair way to go to get to 156 (13 per month) in the near term.

I think this has been discussed before on other threads, 13/month is at best for 11 months of the year. And they always seem to deliver more in the latter part of the year. But they will need to step up the pace to get to "13/month"


If Boeing is heading to producing 787's at 14/month on a 12 month year for an annual production of 168 and Airbus is planning on producing A350's at 13/month on an 11 month year for an annual production of 143, who will have the most airplanes to sell?

As of 30 September, 2018, 61 A350's have been delivered vs 106 787's. Boeing's >50% annual production lead gives it the opportunity to sell more airplanes and Airbus doesn't seem to be closing the gap very quickly.


I don’t think Airbus has officially pushed their target past 10 per month so 110-120 once stabilized. They talked about 13 but as far as I am aware took no official steps towards that. I suspect when targets are announced next year for it to be 110-120 next year.
 
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:14 am

ikolkyo wrote:
I said the 787 might be a better fit to replace A340s and maybe even A330s on TATL. I’m not saying the A350 is a horrible TATL aircraft it’s probably pretty damn good. Size wise I think the 787 might be better. AF and their 789s are a nice example.

Interesting size comparison:

Image
Last edited by Revelation on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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DABYT
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:15 am

SteelChair wrote:
I don't buy the "LH technik is an advantage line." Considering that some competitor airlines send lots of their maintenance to third world countries, paying for maintenance in Germany must be unbelievably expensive for them.

Lets face it: LH is a quasi-subsidized, too-big-to-fail, Euro megacarrier. AND they're arrogant to boot (perhaps becaus they're too big to fail and they know it).The over-riding factor behind LH fleet decisions is political, not economic. Witness the A380 AND 747-8 orders. 0 for 2 on airplanes that were too big for any sensible airline in the world, and now both face extinction. Ordering one would have been a mistake. Ordering both was the very height of folly. They went for the trifecta in stupidity with the 777X, another too big, too heavy, DOA airplane that is "selling poorly right now" and will never sell in significant numbers imho. To now seriously consider 787s or 350s is almost beyond belief.


I have 3 questions for you:

1.) What is a “quasi-subsidized, too-big-to-fail, Euro megacarrier”?
2.) You really believe that Mr. Spohr has to ask Mrs. Merkel what aircraft to buy?
3.) What intel do you have that LH’s fleet planners don’t?
 
smartplane
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:32 am

DUSZRH wrote:
LH658 wrote:
Whatever aircraft they choose, they need to update there business class. I love there service in all 4 cabins, though business class can use a new updated cabin.


There is a new one coming with the 77X.

Back to topic, I reckon this order would be for 2022/23-2026 or so, but I would have expected a bigger order.

If they're looking for a buy-back agreement it can only mean the A346s. Some of them were already scrapped by LH themselves, as they can use the parts on their 333/343/346s.

One reason a customer will issue an RFP when they have an aircraft already optioned, assuming it meets THE requirements, is to improve value and / or pricing. For example, acquire the latest spec versions at no extra cost. Or model hop at no penalty. A new buyback may be on the table, including new owned A343 parts switched to use or return. Or all of the above.
 
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:02 am

I think it is a virtual certainty LH Group orders the 787. The 78J would be perfect on TATL flights and the 788 could open up routes to second tier cities in North America or Asia (ex DEN-FRA).

LH has often split wide body orders. I don't see any reason why they stop now.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:32 am

I find it funny when people on here dismiss a plane because its size or range is not exactly the same as the aircraft it is replacing. For all you know the aircraft being replaced has been taking off well below MTOW. A smaller or shorter ranged replacement might actually be more suitable.

This decision will be based on how much additional cargo they expect to carry.

If cargo is low and the routes will be passengers and bags only then the 787 will win. The 787-10 is the dark horse in this race.
It has the cabin area required and can fly the routes with a decent payload. It can easily do Germany to Los Angeles with a three class cabin.

If they have cargo contracts for the routes and the belly will always be full then the A350 will win hands down.
 
d8s
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:43 am

Sooner787 wrote:
If the EY 350 order cancellation comes to fruition, Airbus would no doubt make
LH an offer on those frames


Maybe UA will "sell" their 350 slots to LH so UA can buy more 78's
 
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seahawk
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:13 am

In this tender the 787 is the clear favourite. The only interesting fact is that LH refused to even consider the A330NEO - again. For the LH Group the 787 is a perfect match.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:31 am

pabloeing wrote:
¿USA West coast is possible with 5000NM from FRA?


http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=5000nm%40FRA

SFO is. LAX might be a push. SAN is probably too far.

The thing is that the 787 might work well for LH as a transatlantic aircraft, especially the -9 and -10 models. The -10 would offer most of Asia, all of Africa except maybe CPT, and most of the USA and Caribbean. It can offer those routes for more passengers than the A359 with less overall airplane. The cost of this is, of course, operational flexibility. The A359 can fly more payload (not pax) on more routes, but at the expense of more airplane. But an airline as large as LH can probably get a decent economy of scale out of the 787, especially if Technic already has the know-how to service the 787.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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aviationaware
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:04 am

jbs2886 wrote:

But, LH lists 34 orders in its 2017 annual report at page 22. https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... 2017-e.pdf

Personally, I don't truly understand what is going on. Boeing clearly doesn't consider them firm (I don't either because of this fact). But, LH does state it has 34 orders.


Boeing is forbidden to count those orders by accounting rules. Lufthansa as the customer on the other hand has no such restrictions, so they need not discern between outright orders, options and purchase rights in their report.
 
george77300
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:25 am

trex8 wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:

With only 61 A350's delivered by 30 Sept (about 7 per month), Airbus would seem to have a fair way to go to get to 156 (13 per month) in the near term.

I think this has been discussed before on other threads, 13/month is at best for 11 months of the year. And they always seem to deliver more in the latter part of the year. But they will need to step up the pace to get to "13/month"


Just a correction here. Boeing work on a 12 month year whereas Airbus is only 11 months. (The French do like their time off work! :white: ) This means Airbus at rate 13 or 11 is only total 143 or 121 per year whereas Boeing at rate 14 is 168 per year.
 
columba
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:33 am

Well the article says that they have options for 30 A350s - if they would not be interested in the 787 they could have taken these instead of asking both manufacturers for new proposals.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
JayBCNLON
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:46 am

It’s always been difficult for non-Germans to understand the German market. That also goes for Lufthansa as an airline. I find it fascinating to read statements such as quasi-subsidized etc. These comments show a complete ignorance.

LH is not the Thai of Europe. LH is very good at what it’s doing. They carefully and cautiously plan what they’re doing. Their fascination with aircraft design has given them an important role in assisting the key aircraft manufacturers in designing aircraft they and the world need - pretty much from their re-birth in 1955 and with all of the key manufacturers Boeing, Lockheed, McD and Airbus. They played a key role in developing the 737 with Boeing and pretty much all the airbus models.

Commercial flight was pretty much developed in Germany in the 20s and 30s and their is still a deep rooted attachment to engineering and technology in Germany and in Lufthansa.

I hope this clarifies some things for those who may not have the historical perspective.
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:52 am

A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:
789 (at 254T) can carry 280pax + 35T cargo 6000nm (more than enough for FRA-LAX
789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm
781 can carry 325 pax + 10T Cargo 6000nm
359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)
If LH can fill the cabin and have regular cargo of 25T it would seem to be the pick, but otherwise, because it must be a lot cheaper to fly a 254T aircraft, than a 280T aircraft, I think the 787 is in with a chance.

Ruscoe
 
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zeke
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:59 am

Ruscoe wrote:
A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:
789 (at 254T) can carry 280pax + 35T cargo 6000nm (more than enough for FRA-LAX
789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm
781 can carry 325 pax + 10T Cargo 6000nm
359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)
If LH can fill the cabin and have regular cargo of 25T it would seem to be the pick, but otherwise, because it must be a lot cheaper to fly a 254T aircraft, than a 280T aircraft, I think the 787 is in with a chance.

Ruscoe


Nothing special about 6000 nm, all the current wide-bodies can do that.

We have 3 MTOWs on our A359s, and run them at 240 MTOW on shorter routes, then can use the same aircraft with a higher MTOW to fly 16+ hours.

Without knowing which airline that the LH Group is targeting the order for, the discussion is moot.

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Last edited by zeke on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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pabloeing
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:00 am

Ruscoe wrote:
A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:
789 (at 254T) can carry 280pax + 35T cargo 6000nm (more than enough for FRA-LAX
789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm
781 can carry 325 pax + 10T Cargo 6000nm
359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)
If LH can fill the cabin and have regular cargo of 25T it would seem to be the pick, but otherwise, because it must be a lot cheaper to fly a 254T aircraft, than a 280T aircraft, I think the 787 is in with a chance.

Ruscoe

With this numbers....the B787-10 is awesome LH network
 
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zeke
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:19 am

pabloeing wrote:
With this numbers....the B787-10 is awesome LH network


However the 787-10 is more expensive than the A359, and less flexible.

Boeing and Airbus List price

777-200ER 295.2
777-200LR 334.0
777-300ER 361.5
777-8 394.9
777-9 425.8
787-8 239.0
787-9 281.6
787-10 325.8

A330-200 238.5
A330-800 (neo) 259.9
A330-200 Freighter 241.7
A330-300 264.2
A330-900 (neo) 296.4
A350-800 280.6
A350-900 317.4
A350-1000 366.5
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
sibibom
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:35 am

Ruscoe wrote:
A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:

789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm

359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)

Ruscoe


Can a cheaper B787-9 carry the same number of passengers and yet more cargo over 6000nm? Then Honestly A350-900 doesn't have a business case!
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:07 am

pabloeing wrote:
Ruscoe wrote:
A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:
789 (at 254T) can carry 280pax + 35T cargo 6000nm (more than enough for FRA-LAX
789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm
781 can carry 325 pax + 10T Cargo 6000nm
359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)
If LH can fill the cabin and have regular cargo of 25T it would seem to be the pick, but otherwise, because it must be a lot cheaper to fly a 254T aircraft, than a 280T aircraft, I think the 787 is in with a chance.

Ruscoe

With this numbers....the B787-10 is awesome LH network


Absolutely not. LH hauls remarkable amounts of cargo on their routes. 25T of Cargo is common. The 787-10 really sucks at this and has no place in LH's mainline fleet.

The 787-9 on the other hand would fit the fleets of LH, LX, OS, SN and EW. I see that one coming as a A330 and A340 replacement.
Happy Landings
 
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seahawk
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:10 am

I expect the A340s to be replaced by a mix of 787 and A350. They have A350 options, so they are probably evaluating if there is a niche for a sizeable 787 fleet below it. If not they will probably go for a mostly A350 fleet with A330CEOs becoming the low end for some time.
 
Mrakula
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:30 am

Ruscoe wrote:
A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:
789 (at 254T) can carry 280pax + 35T cargo 6000nm (more than enough for FRA-LAX
789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm
781 can carry 325 pax + 10T Cargo 6000nm
359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)
If LH can fill the cabin and have regular cargo of 25T it would seem to be the pick, but otherwise, because it must be a lot cheaper to fly a 254T aircraft, than a 280T aircraft, I think the 787 is in with a chance.

Ruscoe


When you look at Airbus and Boieng specification. B789 MZFW 181,436 KGS OEW around 127,000 KGS it is around 54,000 KGS of payload. A350-900 MZFW 195,700 KGS OEW 135,000 - 142,000 KGS will carry 60,000 - 53,000 KGS so your numbers are incorrect!

OEW depends on carrier and A/C configuration but generaly, A350-900 can carry more payload in every scenarios!
 
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zeke
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 am

About 5-10 tonnes more depending on the configurations, if they are premium heavy, 8 vs 9 acrosss on the 787-9, they sort of IFE. If crew rests are installed.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Cerecl
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:36 am

Ruscoe wrote:
A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:
789 (at 254T) can carry 280pax + 35T cargo 6000nm (more than enough for FRA-LAX
789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm
781 can carry 325 pax + 10T Cargo 6000nm
359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)
If LH can fill the cabin and have regular cargo of 25T it would seem to be the pick, but otherwise, because it must be a lot cheaper to fly a 254T aircraft, than a 280T aircraft, I think the 787 is in with a chance.

Ruscoe

There is got to be a mistake in your comparison-How can 787-9 out-carry A359 to 6000nm?
The payload range chart in this thread (?by Ferpe) tells a very different story.
viewtopic.php?t=1352139&start=550
Fokker-100 SAAB 340 Q400 E190 717 737 738 763ER 787-8 772 77E 773 77W 747-400 747-400ER A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A346 A359 A380
 
trijetsonly
Posts: 692
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:52 am

Cerecl wrote:
Ruscoe wrote:
A quick look at the payload range graphs shows that:
789 (at 254T) can carry 280pax + 35T cargo 6000nm (more than enough for FRA-LAX
789 can carry 325pax (bit of a squeeze) + 27T cargo 6000nm
781 can carry 325 pax + 10T Cargo 6000nm
359 (at 280T) 325Pax + 25T Cargo 6000nm (it is limited by its Max structural payload not fuel)
If LH can fill the cabin and have regular cargo of 25T it would seem to be the pick, but otherwise, because it must be a lot cheaper to fly a 254T aircraft, than a 280T aircraft, I think the 787 is in with a chance.

Ruscoe

There is got to be a mistake in your comparison-How can 787-9 out-carry A359 to 6000nm?
The payload range chart in this thread (?by Ferpe) tells a very different story.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... &start=550


The 787-9 flies 6000nm at a ZFW of ~172t.
That's ~42 to 47t of payload, depending on cabin and catering. With 300 pax (300* 100kg) 12 to 17t cargo capability remain.
Happy Landings
 
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BartSimpson
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Lol ok. I'm sure Boeing will get right to work of that proposal. There's no way LH could say they are giving the 787 serious consideration with a straight face.


That's not how Lufthansa works. They would never risk their good relations with Boeing just to get better terms from Airbus. If they talk to Boeing to buy new planes they simply mean that.
 
bigjku
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:22 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I find it funny when people on here dismiss a plane because its size or range is not exactly the same as the aircraft it is replacing. For all you know the aircraft being replaced has been taking off well below MTOW. A smaller or shorter ranged replacement might actually be more suitable.

This decision will be based on how much additional cargo they expect to carry.

If cargo is low and the routes will be passengers and bags only then the 787 will win. The 787-10 is the dark horse in this race.
It has the cabin area required and can fly the routes with a decent payload. It can easily do Germany to Los Angeles with a three class cabin.

If they have cargo contracts for the routes and the belly will always be full then the A350 will win hands down.


It doesn’t depend just on cargo but greatly on the type of cargo we are dealing with. By weight the 787-10 will get outhauled, but not by volume by the A359. So it depends on what we are going to haul.
 
WIederling
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Re: Lufthansa looking at buying 20 A350 or 787 according to Bloomberg

Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:52 am

deltal1011man wrote:
Airlines like LH that have big MRO arms tend to operate most airplane types produced. If you look at the LH group, the entire group operates basically every(western) airplane produced in the last generation and have orders for most that will be produced


Additionally and in contrast to some other airlines LH goes for having "rightsized" frames for their use cases.
finely grained adjusting capacity provided to fit demand. Granularity.
Murphy is an optimist

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