n729pa
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:56 pm

cedarjet wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
Tokyo777 wrote:

FYI, especially in long haul, airlines try their darnedest to eliminate all reduced recline. Last row seats can sometimes be the better. Less crowded in the back of the plane, no 5 year old behind you constantly beating on the screen on your seatback, and in some airplanes, the last row may be one of the only double seats instead of a triple or quad.


Honestly, I'm more stunned that there is a limikted incline seat on the B789 (or maybe just QF's version for this route). That is unconsciable for a 18 hour flight. God have mercy on their souls.

I was in the back row on the inaugural and I assure you I had full recline. This is Qantas, not Spirit.


I had 59A on the inaugural QF10 and same seat back again about a week later. I found it ok. SIN is about 14 hours anyway so once you've gone that far you might as well push on a few more hours.

Personally I think I'll stick with the QF2 next time. I prefer the A380 and the departure time from LHR suits me better. Having said that the late night arrival on the QF10 is better than a 5am one in SYD on the 2.

But I found the service exceptional as normal so I was fine with it. Nice long night coming back from Perth. At the end of the day economy seats will not have the space of C or CY so you pay your money and what you can afford and take your choice.

Following my trip on this inaugural flight Ive seemed to of have got myself on an advisory panel at QF. I get regular things to comment on and complete. The Operation Sunrise could be a game changer if some of the ideas they've asked for comments on come off. That's not to say any of them will but some radical ideas being thought about. Economy wise that is. Time and economics will tell...
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:23 pm

zeke wrote:
Did you read the report from the other thread where they said they did ?


FriscoHeavy is correct. The 777-200LR was positioned for airport operating convenience and FAI-NAA record setting requirements, not for saving taxi fuel. The 777-200LR landed at LHR with enough fuel onboard to fly on to Toulouse if desired. Flight fuel burn included a 15 minute hold at LHR with profuse apologies from ATC.

I was also on the flight and at the time was the Boeing manager for 777 Safety, Certification and Performance. I was well aware of 777-200LR fuel burn characteristics required for the record flight.

Cathay Pacific was very helpful and provided excellent pre-flight ground support.
Last edited by OldAeroGuy on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ojjunior
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
My new favorite curse is: "May you have to sit in seat 59E on QF9."

It confuses the non-av people.

ROTFL

I can only imagine such a flight, restricted recline, in front of a galley.

Lightsaber


Agreed.
And people still gather around to call the brand-new-updated-state of the art-never imagined before version of the 767 called 787 (yes, that's what it is) as the most amazing thing ever created by the human hands since the big bang.
Wake me up after you supporters set foot in London after flying Y all the way from Perth.
In what world a 787 would be a nice replacement for a 747, for instance, in terms of pax comfort for such a long flight?
Damn, stop applauding this 787, it's fine just for the airlines which makes more money squeezing you like in a tuna can but better consuming fuel.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:52 pm

cedarjet wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
Tokyo777 wrote:

FYI, especially in long haul, airlines try their darnedest to eliminate all reduced recline. Last row seats can sometimes be the better. Less crowded in the back of the plane, no 5 year old behind you constantly beating on the screen on your seatback, and in some airplanes, the last row may be one of the only double seats instead of a triple or quad.


Honestly, I'm more stunned that there is a limikted incline seat on the B789 (or maybe just QF's version for this route). That is unconsciable for a 18 hour flight. God have mercy on their souls.

I was in the back row on the inaugural and I assure you I had full recline. This is Qantas, not Spirit.


Please have Seatguru update it...https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Qanta ... ng_789.php

Also, the 2 by itself in the last row (if it has full recline) sounds alot better than the 3x3x3, especially if you're traveling with a buddy.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:41 pm

cedarjet wrote:
I assure you I had full recline.

Not row 59

Image
 
jupiter2
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:22 pm

ojjunior wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
I assure you I had full recline.

Not row 59

Image


Besides the poster saying he sat in the seats in question and stated they had full recline, did you actually bother to read some of the comments in seatguru ? There are quotes in there that state row 59 has full recline. The drawback for some consumers seemed to be more the toilet flushing noise and galley light, not recline.

The delivery flight for QF of the first 744 was towed to the runway at LHR to save some fuel, as mentioned by others. Nearly didn't make it all the way to SYD nonetheless, the weather here was crap, but lifted enough for the landing.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm

vorellanaj wrote:
Incredible sight , but QF will need to upgauge aircraft on the route in a foreseeable future . But, QF has no intermediate model between 787-9 and A380.
747-400 and -ER variant have less range, less efficiency and have retirement date scheduled.

To me the "incredible sight" is how a.net has gone from saying how this flight would never work to now saying that QF needs to find a bigger plane for this flight.

Classy problem to have.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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FriscoHeavy
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:16 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
zeke wrote:
Did you read the report from the other thread where they said they did ?


FriscoHeavy is correct. The 777-200LR was positioned for airport operating convenience and FAI-NAA record setting requirements, not for saving taxi fuel. The 777-200LR landed at LHR with enough fuel onboard to fly on to Toulouse if desired. Flight fuel burn included a 15 minute hold at LHR with profuse apologies from ATC.

I was also on the flight and at the time was the Boeing manager for 777 Safety, Certification and Performance. I was well aware of 777-200LR fuel burn characteristics required for the record flight.

Cathay Pacific was very helpful and provided excellent pre-flight ground support.



Thanks for backing me up, boss.

:thumbsup:
Whatever
 
QXAS
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:50 pm

evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.

Tech stops on a 40+ degree day may be unavoidable. Based on the ACAP the 789 can depart from Perth with a weight of about 535,000 lbs. If we assume 190 lbs per passenger (FAA says 179 for female plus bag and 190 for male plus bag) and a 90% load factor, then about 16:40 of fuel can be loaded on the plane. The flight takes about 17:20. The 535,000 figure assumes an 11,000 foot takeoff roll at 40 degrees c with 20 degrees of flaps. The aircraft would be lifting off with only about 300 ft of runway remaining.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
log0008
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:08 pm

qf002 wrote:
log0008 wrote:
the fuel cost alone is over $250,000 per flight.


No it's not. Fuel capacity of the 789 is about 36,000 US gallons and the global price of A1 this week is US$2.26 per gallon. That's about US$80k to fill the tanks which is about A$110k.



Sorry my post should have read $150,000 which which about what it costs in Australia due to higher prices and fuel taxes.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:49 pm

Aviation fuel is usually tax exempt. Is Australia unique?
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:04 pm

cedarjet wrote:
I was on the inaugural LHR to PER and a couple of the cabin crew had never been to Australia!


https://youtu.be/aUHyHk9UHgA

Some crew on this flight are definitely native European language speakers in addition to Aussies. I still remember the "Nah warries, Mate" I got with the very Aussie crew on LAX-SYD-LAX on one of those sectors.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:12 am

QXAS wrote:
evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.

Tech stops on a 40+ degree day may be unavoidable. Based on the ACAP the 789 can depart from Perth with a weight of about 535,000 lbs. If we assume 190 lbs per passenger (FAA says 179 for female plus bag and 190 for male plus bag) and a 90% load factor, then about 16:40 of fuel can be loaded on the plane. The flight takes about 17:20. The 535,000 figure assumes an 11,000 foot takeoff roll at 40 degrees c with 20 degrees of flaps. The aircraft would be lifting off with only about 300 ft of runway remaining.


And how much runway would they have left at lift off if they lost an engine right at V1 and continued the takeoff roll? :bouncy:
Whatever
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:05 am

I also think summer will be a problem on this route. A runway extension could always be done in the future as perth has 4000ft of clear space to the north.

I'm not sure if this route will remain after Qantas does Sydney and Melbourne direct to London. Most of the passengers would no doubt come from Sydney and Melbourne.

I do see a future for Perth as a mini hub to future smaller European destinations. For example Qantas might not be able to justify four 20 hour 777X flights to Rome and Athens from both Sydney and Melbourne. However two 16 hour 787-9 flights from Perth could go to Rome and Athens and they would be much easier to fill as passengers from all capitals could go to Perth.

Rome and Athens being 1000 and 2000 kms shorter than the London route means the 787 can always depart full regardless if weather.

Qantas has a very bright future IMO.
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:32 am

It is not always you get to see the red line on FR24. QF9 is currently cruising at near FL430. Departed 16:25 hours ago and 00:30 to go. What a great fix for a year to be on one of these flights lol

Image

At the same time SQ21 is at FL410 and has taken a pretty normal route EWR-SIN. Again departed 12:22 hours ago and 04:22 to go. Again almost a 17 hour flight like Qantas. So need to get on one of these!!

Image
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
Tokyo777
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:04 am

WorldFlier wrote:

Please have Seatguru update it...https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Qanta ... ng_789.php

Also, the 2 by itself in the last row (if it has full recline) sounds alot better than the 3x3x3, especially if you're traveling with a buddy.


I'm not going to be seatguru's checker. They simply need to do better themselves if they want to be a reputable site. It seems they just have some algorithm where they say all last rows in the back of the plane have zero or limited recline. Far easier than, you know, doing actual research.
 
Qf648
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:05 am

Flew qf9 last month and back on qf2.

Was sceptical on the whole project sunrise thing as I like the comfort and space on the 388.

Big eye opener - found qf2 to be an awful flight in comparison. The chnage back to SIN I looked forward to but the short hop from sin to syd was really bad for jet lag. Worse than when it was via dxb. You get stuff all sleep on a sector you need to sleep on to realign the body clock.

Tbh the sin transfer was pretty average - the whole rescan thing sucks, the loungue at that time of day has more whingers than brexit. Still beggars belief that you can buy a bottled drink post scanning in a country but have it confiscated on the rescan even though you haven’t left the terminal.

Ended up being a massive fan of the one stop. Get on get where you are going get off.

Definitely would and will do again.
 
redroo
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:04 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I also think summer will be a problem on this route. A runway extension could always be done in the future as perth has 4000ft of clear space to the north.

I'm not sure if this route will remain after Qantas does Sydney and Melbourne direct to London. Most of the passengers would no doubt come from Sydney and Melbourne.

I do see a future for Perth as a mini hub to future smaller European destinations. For example Qantas might not be able to justify four 20 hour 777X flights to Rome and Athens from both Sydney and Melbourne. However two 16 hour 787-9 flights from Perth could go to Rome and Athens and they would be much easier to fill as passengers from all capitals could go to Perth.

Rome and Athens being 1000 and 2000 kms shorter than the London route means the 787 can always depart full regardless if weather.

Qantas has a very bright future IMO.


QF is well aware of how freaking hot it gets in Perth and will have planned accordingly. Recall they modelled the flight for over a year in software before it was flown. Most of the heat of the day is receding by the time the flight leaves.
 
crazyplane1234
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:40 am

ojjunior wrote:
Damn, stop applauding this 787, it's fine just for the airlines which makes more money squeezing you like in a tuna can but better consuming fuel.

:roll:
In case you didn't realise, companies need money to survive, and they need tuna can seating to achieve this. Why shouldn't efficiency be applauded?
 
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vhtje
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:17 am

Qf648 wrote:
Flew qf9 last month and back on qf2.

Was sceptical on the whole project sunrise thing as I like the comfort and space on the 388.

Big eye opener - found qf2 to be an awful flight in comparison. The chnage back to SIN I looked forward to but the short hop from sin to syd was really bad for jet lag. Worse than when it was via dxb. You get stuff all sleep on a sector you need to sleep on to realign the body clock.

Tbh the sin transfer was pretty average - the whole rescan thing sucks, the loungue at that time of day has more whingers than brexit. Still beggars belief that you can buy a bottled drink post scanning in a country but have it confiscated on the rescan even though you haven’t left the terminal.

Ended up being a massive fan of the one stop. Get on get where you are going get off.

Definitely would and will do again.


interesting comparison. I much prefer the SIN stopover point to DXB - and I have been doing LHR <> frequently for a loooong time. With the SIN (and, before that, BKK or HKG) stopover, it was a late departure from LHR, dinner on board, then a good, long sleep aligned with my UK sleeping pattern to wake up just before arriving into SIN late afternoon. Then off the aircraft, into the lounge for a shower, change of socks and underwear, a bite to eat, then back on board for another light bite then more sleep, to arrive in SYD before 06:00 - the result being that I have basically slept the whole way from LHR.

With DXB, and the shorter first sector, it never worked for me - I could never sleep.

I do also miss the mid-afternoon QF32 departure from LHR, with its evening arrival into SYD. I do wish QF would bring that back. Amazing to think that a few years ago there were no fewer than 4 departures to SYD (and 2 to MEL) on QF from LHR per day. Damn you Emirates.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Qf648
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:30 am

redroo wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
I also think summer will be a problem on this route. A runway extension could always be done in the future as perth has 4000ft of clear space to the north.

I'm not sure if this route will remain after Qantas does Sydney and Melbourne direct to London. Most of the passengers would no doubt come from Sydney and Melbourne.

I do see a future for Perth as a mini hub to future smaller European destinations. For example Qantas might not be able to justify four 20 hour 777X flights to Rome and Athens from both Sydney and Melbourne. However two 16 hour 787-9 flights from Perth could go to Rome and Athens and they would be much easier to fill as passengers from all capitals could go to Perth.

Rome and Athens being 1000 and 2000 kms shorter than the London route means the 787 can always depart full regardless if weather.

Qantas has a very bright future IMO.


QF is well aware of how freaking hot it gets in Perth and will have planned accordingly. Recall they modelled the flight for over a year in software before it was flown. Most of the heat of the day is receding by the time the flight leaves.



Yes the Perth sea breeze of an evening is something else. Unlike Adelaide where it can still be quite hot in the evening the heat in Perth comes off really quickly
 
Qf648
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:31 am

vhtje wrote:
Qf648 wrote:
Flew qf9 last month and back on qf2.

Was sceptical on the whole project sunrise thing as I like the comfort and space on the 388.

Big eye opener - found qf2 to be an awful flight in comparison. The chnage back to SIN I looked forward to but the short hop from sin to syd was really bad for jet lag. Worse than when it was via dxb. You get stuff all sleep on a sector you need to sleep on to realign the body clock.

Tbh the sin transfer was pretty average - the whole rescan thing sucks, the loungue at that time of day has more whingers than brexit. Still beggars belief that you can buy a bottled drink post scanning in a country but have it confiscated on the rescan even though you haven’t left the terminal.

Ended up being a massive fan of the one stop. Get on get where you are going get off.

Definitely would and will do again.


interesting comparison. I much prefer the SIN stopover point to DXB - and I have been doing LHR <> frequently for a loooong time. With the SIN (and, before that, BKK or HKG) stopover, it was a late departure from LHR, dinner on board, then a good, long sleep aligned with my UK sleeping pattern to wake up just before arriving into SIN late afternoon. Then off the aircraft, into the lounge for a shower, change of socks and underwear, a bite to eat, then back on board for another light bite then more sleep, to arrive in SYD before 06:00 - the result being that I have basically slept the whole way from LHR.

With DXB, and the shorter first sector, it never worked for me - I could never sleep.

I do also miss the mid-afternoon QF32 departure from LHR, with its evening arrival into SYD. I do wish QF would bring that back. Amazing to think that a few years ago there were no fewer than 4 departures to SYD (and 2 to MEL) on QF from LHR per day. Damn you Emirates.

Horses for courses really. Depends on the individual I guess. The security rescan sucks though ;)
 
Gemuser
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:49 am

vhtje wrote:
interesting comparison. I much prefer the SIN stopover point to DXB - and I have been doing LHR <> frequently for a loooong time. With the SIN (and, before that, BKK or HKG) stopover, it was a late departure from LHR, dinner on board, then a good, long sleep aligned with my UK sleeping pattern to wake up just before arriving into SIN late afternoon. Then off the aircraft, into the lounge for a shower, change of socks and underwear, a bite to eat, then back on board for another light bite then more sleep, to arrive in SYD before 06:00 - the result being that I have basically slept the whole way from LHR.

With DXB, and the shorter first sector, it never worked for me - I could never sleep.

I do also miss the mid-afternoon QF32 departure from LHR, with its evening arrival into SYD. I do wish QF would bring that back. Amazing to think that a few years ago there were no fewer than 4 departures to SYD (and 2 to MEL) on QF from LHR per day. Damn you Emirates.


While I sympathize with your sentiment, without the EK joint venture QF may well have had to withdraw from LHR & Europe all together. Project Sunrise, [of which PER-LHR is step one], is an innovate stratagem which is not without considerable risk. It is much more "out of the box" and out of character for QF than we have seen in a long time [IMHO since they ordered the B707-138s].

Hopefully they will succeed!

Gemuser
 
Prost
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:04 am

zeke wrote:
Prost wrote:
I have an ULR question, not specifically QF. Do I remember an ULR flight that occasionally needed to be towed to the runway as the fuel burned taxiing would have put them short? My brain gets scrambled and I may be making up false memories, but at least I don’t try and pass it off as fact!


That was the 777-200LR record flight from HKG.
Thank you.
 
Aither
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:23 am

If QF gets the premium passengers from their other flights sure it's the most profitable flight, but is the network overall more profitable ? So far we don't know.
Never trust the obvious
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:54 am

Tokyo777 wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:

Please have Seatguru update it...https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Qanta ... ng_789.php

Also, the 2 by itself in the last row (if it has full recline) sounds alot better than the 3x3x3, especially if you're traveling with a buddy.


I'm not going to be seatguru's checker. They simply need to do better themselves if they want to be a reputable site. It seems they just have some algorithm where they say all last rows in the back of the plane have zero or limited recline. Far easier than, you know, doing actual research.


I was being facetious. I would be shocked if there was no recline.

So, I think those seats are "green" if you can sleep through people at the galley!
 
timtam
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:28 pm

Could double daily Perth to LHR be on the cards?

Maybe a late evening departure out of Perth?
 
incitatus
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:31 pm

If it is doing so good, we should expect QF to announce increased frequency to LHR or additional Europe destinations from PER.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:51 pm

incitatus wrote:
If it is doing so good, we should expect QF to announce increased frequency to LHR or additional Europe destinations from PER.


That's a very flawed statement.

1. LHR has a slot issue. You can't just add a flight on a whim.
2. This flight takes up a lot of frames, so they may not be able to do it until more/sufficient aircraft arrive.
3. London is a very business oriented market. Just because that works, doesn't mean we can assume that other European airports will work. Yes, we will likely see CDG announced, but there won't be more than a few destinations in Europe that can support a flight like this.
Whatever
 
redroo
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:04 pm

incitatus wrote:
If it is doing so good, we should expect QF to announce increased frequency to LHR or additional Europe destinations from PER.



There are really limited times when a flight from Perth to London would make sense. The current flight is the sweet spot. You could leave later, but then you hit traffic into London. Leave at midnight from Perth and you’re arriving at 10am - not the best for business.

The alternative is to leave in the morning. You could in theory leave at 8am and arrive at 6pm, but that wouldn’t work for any connections within WA or east coast problematic. And that would be a long day flight.

You’ll see sydney double daily non stop to London before you’ll see Perth IMHO.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:12 pm

While the frequent flyer likely has noise cancelling headsets, do airlines ever carry them for passengers stranded next to toilets, squalling babies, etc? Those sets can turn what would be a miserable flight into something pleasant - you could even smile at the end of the trip and sympathize with the exhausted mother.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
QXAS
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:57 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
QXAS wrote:
evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.

Tech stops on a 40+ degree day may be unavoidable. Based on the ACAP the 789 can depart from Perth with a weight of about 535,000 lbs. If we assume 190 lbs per passenger (FAA says 179 for female plus bag and 190 for male plus bag) and a 90% load factor, then about 16:40 of fuel can be loaded on the plane. The flight takes about 17:20. The 535,000 figure assumes an 11,000 foot takeoff roll at 40 degrees c with 20 degrees of flaps. The aircraft would be lifting off with only about 300 ft of runway remaining.


And how much runway would they have left at lift off if they lost an engine right at V1 and continued the takeoff roll? :bouncy:

I only fly single engine so I’m not sure how those performance calculations work out. But I can’t imagine that would be pretty. I guess we’ll find out here in the next few months how QF will handle high density altitude at PER.
Question for local Aussies, how much does temperature cool off before departure time and how reliable are departure headwinds to help reduce that distance?
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:28 pm

Flighty wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but crewing a 10,000 mile flight should be cheaper than crewing two 5,000 mile flights.

So, actually the long flight saves on crew costs? Oh never mind, we already got there.


Did we factor in that two 5,000 mile flights take quite a bit more passengers (50 - 75% more) than the single 10,000 mile flights? Thus, on per-passenger basis, crew costs may be less positive.
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:48 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
It is not always you get to see the red line on FR24. QF9 is currently cruising at near FL430. Departed 16:25 hours ago and 00:30 to go. What a great fix for a year to be on one of these flights lol

Image


Interestingly that flight tracks right across FRA.
 
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:35 am

evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.


Many days in the 40's, are you serious? Your argument is flawed and way over exagerrated because for one the highest temperature at Perth Airport last summer was 39 degrees, secondly over the whole summer the average temperature was under 31 degrees and thirdly most of the temperatures recorded on the second reading of the day where either at 30 degrees or below.
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:52 am

QXAS wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
QXAS wrote:
Tech stops on a 40+ degree day may be unavoidable. Based on the ACAP the 789 can depart from Perth with a weight of about 535,000 lbs. If we assume 190 lbs per passenger (FAA says 179 for female plus bag and 190 for male plus bag) and a 90% load factor, then about 16:40 of fuel can be loaded on the plane. The flight takes about 17:20. The 535,000 figure assumes an 11,000 foot takeoff roll at 40 degrees c with 20 degrees of flaps. The aircraft would be lifting off with only about 300 ft of runway remaining.


And how much runway would they have left at lift off if they lost an engine right at V1 and continued the takeoff roll? :bouncy:

I only fly single engine so I’m not sure how those performance calculations work out. But I can’t imagine that would be pretty. I guess we’ll find out here in the next few months how QF will handle high density altitude at PER.
Question for local Aussies, how much does temperature cool off before departure time and how reliable are departure headwinds to help reduce that distance?


For a better analysis of the weather data refer to the following

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/20180 ... 1801.shtml

Just scroll down to near the bottom of the page and select the month. There are 2 recordings a day, one at 9am the other at 3pm. Generally on most days the seabreeze is in by 3pm and most of the temperatures are around 30 degrees. Even on the warmer days it cools off to around 30 degrees after dark which is normally 7-730pm. Occasionally it may still be 32 degrees later in the evening but this is not a regular occurrence, The departure time of QF9 as of tomorrow will be an hour later so given that most departures have been around 15-20 minutes of scheduled departure time it will be around 2000 when it takes off. Winds occur in 2 ways, first the seabreeze which normally comes in from anything to a SSW to WSW direction meaning a runway 21 departure, wind strengths can be weak some of the times. Secondly early to mid evening the winds most nights move back to an easterly direction, ranging from a direction of ENE to E though predimontly in the NE direction resulting in a runway 3 departure. This easterly winds are always quite warm winds and can be quite gusty. Overall PER weather while it can get quite warm, with the ocassionally rather hot day most of our weather is around the average however it does drag on from mid/late October to mid/late April
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rbavfan
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:31 am

Prost wrote:
I have an ULR question, not specifically QF. Do I remember an ULR flight that occasionally needed to be towed to the runway as the fuel burned taxiing would have put them short? My brain gets scrambled and I may be making up false memories, but at least I don’t try and pass it off as fact!


NW flight MSP-NRT was towed to the runway & then engine start to allow the route on an early 744.
 
waoz1
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:22 am

qf789 wrote:
evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.


Many days in the 40's, are you serious? Your argument is flawed and way over exagerrated because for one the highest temperature at Perth Airport last summer was 39 degrees, secondly over the whole summer the average temperature was under 31 degrees and thirdly most of the temperatures recorded on the second reading of the day where either at 30 degrees or below.


Many days in the 40s? Not sure hes talking about do you?
So do cities like SYD/MEL not get as many tourists in summer as their weather is much the same as PER that time of year.
 
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:33 am

redroo wrote:
incitatus wrote:
If it is doing so good, we should expect QF to announce increased frequency to LHR or additional Europe destinations from PER.



There are really limited times when a flight from Perth to London would make sense. The current flight is the sweet spot. You could leave later, but then you hit traffic into London. Leave at midnight from Perth and you’re arriving at 10am - not the best for business.

The alternative is to leave in the morning. You could in theory leave at 8am and arrive at 6pm, but that wouldn’t work for any connections within WA or east coast problematic. And that would be a long day flight.

You’ll see sydney double daily non stop to London before you’ll see Perth IMHO.


I've heard (admittedly through a friend but one who should know), that QF9 has to have such an early arrival as it cannot carry the extra holding fuel required for a later arrival (perfect winds excepted). The margins are that tight.
 
Qf648
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:50 am

The above temperature conditions for PER are correct. The sea breeze is consistently 20-40 kph.

Other capital AUS cities just don't get this strong a sea breeze, its unique to Perth.
 
Ruscoe
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:50 am

evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter.


My understanding (word of mouth) is that they "flew" this mission every day for more than a year at the prevailing conditions, in simulation, and rarely had a problem.

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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:51 am

redroo wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
I also think summer will be a problem on this route. A runway extension could always be done in the future as perth has 4000ft of clear space to the north.

I'm not sure if this route will remain after Qantas does Sydney and Melbourne direct to London. Most of the passengers would no doubt come from Sydney and Melbourne.

I do see a future for Perth as a mini hub to future smaller European destinations. For example Qantas might not be able to justify four 20 hour 777X flights to Rome and Athens from both Sydney and Melbourne. However two 16 hour 787-9 flights from Perth could go to Rome and Athens and they would be much easier to fill as passengers from all capitals could go to Perth.

Rome and Athens being 1000 and 2000 kms shorter than the London route means the 787 can always depart full regardless if weather.

Qantas has a very bright future IMO.


QF is well aware of how freaking hot it gets in Perth and will have planned accordingly. Recall they modelled the flight for over a year in software before it was flown. Most of the heat of the day is receding by the time the flight leaves.


I believe it was more than 800 days of weather information that was collected and analysed in verifying the flight was possible year-round - not only weather at both ends, but also at several airports enroute (presumably the most likely nominated alternates) and at altitude (to test block times, fuel loads, etc.). All of this information was then used to determine the best configuration of the aircraft, and to prepare for live flight planning. My understanding is QF effectively undertook a virtual dispatch process during that period, almost as though the flight actually operated every day.
 
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:04 am

benjjk wrote:
redroo wrote:
incitatus wrote:
If it is doing so good, we should expect QF to announce increased frequency to LHR or additional Europe destinations from PER.



There are really limited times when a flight from Perth to London would make sense. The current flight is the sweet spot. You could leave later, but then you hit traffic into London. Leave at midnight from Perth and you’re arriving at 10am - not the best for business.

The alternative is to leave in the morning. You could in theory leave at 8am and arrive at 6pm, but that wouldn’t work for any connections within WA or east coast problematic. And that would be a long day flight.

You’ll see sydney double daily non stop to London before you’ll see Perth IMHO.


I've heard (admittedly through a friend but one who should know), that QF9 has to have such an early arrival as it cannot carry the extra holding fuel required for a later arrival (perfect winds excepted). The margins are that tight.


That is correct.
 
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:06 am

qf789 wrote:
evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.


Many days in the 40's, are you serious? Your argument is flawed and way over exagerrated because for one the highest temperature at Perth Airport last summer was 39 degrees, secondly over the whole summer the average temperature was under 31 degrees and thirdly most of the temperatures recorded on the second reading of the day where either at 30 degrees or below.



It certainly was cold last summer here ! :-)
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:54 am

Francoflier wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I'm surprised it is so profitable as the crew costs alone must take a ferocious bite out of the revenue. Then, at the end the hotel costs for them all. Doing ultra longhaul properly ain't cheap and QF does do things properly.


You are way overblowing crew costs.

First of all, this flight would not cost them much more in crewing than any other long haul flight. On the contrary, doing the equivalent of 2 long haul flights with one set of crew while having pax paying premium for a direct flight is a big win for the airline.

Second, airlines love to over publically emphasize the cost of crewing, often leading to the impression that crewing is one of the big operating expense. Truth is, it is a small fraction of the operating cost, but they like everyone to think differently as they constantly strive to lower crew remuneration as part of a global cost cutting effort.



Math is and has always been a problem on airliners.net.

A 16hour flight crewed by 4 pilots generates 64 man hours while 2 x 8 hour flights crewed by 2 pilots only generate 32 man hours.
The crew cost would be double.
There are also no savings in hotel costs as pilots will have longer layovers after such a long flight.

Cabin crew can be recycled more easily but there are no savings to be had there either.

Carrying the additional dead weight including bags, catering and water adds to the cost.

No airline openly announces that a route is profitable, especially not the most profitable ones.
So forget it.

16 hours in 9-abreast Y... There won't be many encores for that.
 
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:20 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
I'm surprised it is so profitable as the crew costs alone must take a ferocious bite out of the revenue. Then, at the end the hotel costs for them all. Doing ultra longhaul properly ain't cheap and QF does do things properly.


You are way overblowing crew costs.

First of all, this flight would not cost them much more in crewing than any other long haul flight. On the contrary, doing the equivalent of 2 long haul flights with one set of crew while having pax paying premium for a direct flight is a big win for the airline.

Second, airlines love to over publically emphasize the cost of crewing, often leading to the impression that crewing is one of the big operating expense. Truth is, it is a small fraction of the operating cost, but they like everyone to think differently as they constantly strive to lower crew remuneration as part of a global cost cutting effort.



Math is and has always been a problem on airliners.net.

A 16hour flight crewed by 4 pilots generates 64 man hours while 2 x 8 hour flights crewed by 2 pilots only generate 32 man hours.
The crew cost would be double.
There are also no savings in hotel costs as pilots will have longer layovers after such a long flight.

Cabin crew can be recycled more easily but there are no savings to be had there either.

Carrying the additional dead weight including bags, catering and water adds to the cost.

No airline openly announces that a route is profitable, especially not the most profitable ones.
So forget it.

16 hours in 9-abreast Y... There won't be many encores for that.


Doesn’t SIN-LHR need three or four crew tech crew? Not sure if the relief crew operate up to SYD/MEL-SIN or pax up only?
 
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:37 am

qf789 wrote:
evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.


Many days in the 40's, are you serious? Your argument is flawed and way over exagerrated because for one the highest temperature at Perth Airport last summer was 39 degrees, secondly over the whole summer the average temperature was under 31 degrees and thirdly most of the temperatures recorded on the second reading of the day where either at 30 degrees or below.


I think you're picking a good month for your example. January 2018 only had two days 36 or above. Take February 2016 which had six days 40 or above, eight days 36 and above, and 12 days 34 and above. February 2016 would have meant a third of flights that month with significant weight penalties, of which half of those may have even required a tech stop.
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:53 am

Waterbomber wrote:


Math is and has always been a problem on airliners.net.

A 16hour flight crewed by 4 pilots generates 64 man hours while 2 x 8 hour flights crewed by 2 pilots only generate 32 man hours.
The crew cost would be double.
There are also no savings in hotel costs as pilots will have longer layovers after such a long flight.

Cabin crew can be recycled more easily but there are no savings to be had there either.

Carrying the additional dead weight including bags, catering and water adds to the cost.

No airline openly announces that a route is profitable, especially not the most profitable ones.
So forget it.

16 hours in 9-abreast Y... There won't be many encores for that.


No such stopover that is 8 hours from PER and 8 hours from LHR. More like 11 hours to DXB and 8 to LHR or 6 to SIN and 14 to LHR. Nowhere near half the crew cost.
Beside I suspect landing fees, and all other taxes, to widely outweigh an additional 10 hours of crew cost and an extra night in London.

There are plenty of interviews where execs call a route profitable, maybe not the exact wording but we get the point.
 
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qf2220
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:04 pm

Qf648 wrote:
The above temperature conditions for PER are correct. The sea breeze is consistently 20-40 kph.

Other capital AUS cities just don't get this strong a sea breeze, its unique to Perth.


For those who are geographically minded, other capital cities face east or south (or in the case of adelaide are sheilded by landmass) and are well away from the Indian Ocean so are not oriented to be impacted by the prevailing westerly winds coming across the sea.
 
jupiter2
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Re: Qantas 787-9 Exceeding Expectations on Perth-London Route

Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:27 pm

evanb wrote:
qf789 wrote:
evanb wrote:
So far it's only been operating during the Australian winter. Now that we're starting to come into summer I'm interested to see how well it continues to perform when the take-off performance might start to get more seriously challenged by higher temperatures. Keep in mind Perth's July (coldest month) average high is about 18 degrees celcius, but January and February (hottest months) have an average high of 32 degrees celcius with many days in the 40s. It they have to start leaving significant number of passengers behind this could be really problematic. Given the marketing of the flight they're going to do everything they can not to have to make a tech stop.


Many days in the 40's, are you serious? Your argument is flawed and way over exagerrated because for one the highest temperature at Perth Airport last summer was 39 degrees, secondly over the whole summer the average temperature was under 31 degrees and thirdly most of the temperatures recorded on the second reading of the day where either at 30 degrees or below.


I think you're picking a good month for your example. January 2018 only had two days 36 or above. Take February 2016 which had six days 40 or above, eight days 36 and above, and 12 days 34 and above. February 2016 would have meant a third of flights that month with significant weight penalties, of which half of those may have even required a tech stop.


You on the other hand are trying to pick a bad month. On those hot days that month, what was the temperature at Perth Airport and wind speed and direction when the flight would've been scheduled to depart ?
The Fremantle doctor can cool things down in a hurry in Perth once it rolls in off the sea.

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