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LAXintl
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AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:31 am

Talk is heating up about a potentially historic merger of two of the nation’s largest flight attendant unions — the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) and the Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA).

AFA, headed by a forceful leader in Sara Nelson, represents some 24,000 United Airlines flight attendants, as well as flight attendants at 19 smaller airlines. APFA, headed by president Lori Bassani, represents more than 27,000 flight attendants at American Airlines, the world’s largest airline.

A merger of the two FA unions would create one mega-union that conceivably could wield incredible power and influence at two of the nation’s largest airlines. Nelson, who is known as a high-profile, action-oriented leader, has been in the forefront of pushing for a merger of the two big flight attendant unions, sources said.
According to sources, the board of directors at APFA first would have to greenlight talks with representatives from AFA for any merger to happen. That has not yet happened, according to sources.


United Airlines and American Airlines flight attendants talk merger
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... light.html

=

Similar to how ALPA represents bulk of airline pilots, can conceivable see single FA union also represent most US FAs as well.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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UPlog
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:15 am

Not sure bigger is always better for the employee.

I am glad for instance I am not stuck with ALPA and instead have the representation of a more focused and lower cost union.
The carbon copy approach of pushing for near identical contracts by large unions while eating your hefty dues is simply lazy cop out imo and often far from optimal based on individual carrier and employee group circumstances.
 
jumbojet
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:19 am

this will just push some airlines into their next chapter 11.
 
AA321T
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:26 am

APFA has been less than helpful for us at AA, but I don’t want AFA either. I don’t know what the right choice is.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:51 am

AA321T wrote:
APFA has been less than helpful for us at AA, but I don’t want AFA either. I don’t know what the right choice is.

They are a lot better than anything the AFA is going to offer.

this is a money grab by the AFA and nothing more.
 
DeltaPrince
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:54 am

deltal1011man wrote:
AA321T wrote:
APFA has been less than helpful for us at AA, but I don’t want AFA either. I don’t know what the right choice is.

They are a lot better than anything the AFA is going to offer.

this is a money grab by the AFA and nothing more.


Amen. Somebody’s gotta pay for all their failed Delta campaigns and falling membership numbers. AFA wants money. This BS wasn’t put out for goodwill purposes.
 
739er
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:56 am

jumbojet wrote:
this will just push some airlines into their next chapter 11.


I’m surprised you’d say that jumbo, because you’re posts are usually so pro-union.
 
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janders
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:01 am

Seems APFA is not totally opposed to the idea.

From the article APFA head says:
Bassani, however, predicted all flight attendant unions would come together in what she called "a coalition" to effect change in the flight attendant profession.


Its one thing to disagree in a forum discussion, but not sure why the need to bash a member for starting a thread about an article posted from what is considered a reputable source. Whole point of the forum is to discuss things.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
AA321T
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:24 am

deltal1011man wrote:
AA321T wrote:
APFA has been less than helpful for us at AA, but I don’t want AFA either. I don’t know what the right choice is.

They are a lot better than anything the AFA is going to offer.

this is a money grab by the AFA and nothing more.

I definitely agree, I don’t love APFA but I’d rather have them over AFA any day. I’ve been telling other FAs that APFA is much better than AFA and not to push for them.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:34 am

AFA is desperate. They've lost US & NW and have really only been shrinking.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:04 am

love all the anti-union DL folk chiming in - as if they have any dog in this race at all. AFA is a completely different union under the leadership of Sara Nelson. She's dynamic, professional and works very hard to represent Flight Attendants. Sara also gets on an airplane from time to time to fly a trip. She knows the job well because she is still engaged in it. Under her leadership AFA was a driving force behind the legislation to require 10 hours minimum rest for Flight Attendants - certainly no thanks goes to Delta for that. AFA is also largely responsible for Flight Attendants now receiving some OSHA protections. APFA and AFA together would give Flight Attendants tremendous bargaining power. The Delta trolls here are just scared because AFA and APFA together will be a lot harder for the DL to fight off with their union scare tactics.
 
SteelChair
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:29 pm

Seems ironic that in a tread about a proposal calling for unity in the FA ranks across the industry, the talk has degenerated pretty quickly into a series of disagreements.

WRT the concept in general of unions merging across an industry, I've never understood how that is legal. I'm not a lawyer but it seems a cartel for airline labor is no different than any other cartel. I guess the UAW got away with it for years and set the standard.
 
cessna2
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:30 am

DL FAs will never have a union. The only people to blame for that is the IAM. Had IAM left and allowed AFA to run a real campaign last year, you’d be looking at 24,000 new AFA members. The support from all groups was there for AFA only. Instead the IAM combined their ramp and FA campaigns to give the appearance that they are “doing something”. It’s actually quite hilarious. Meanwhile we continue to thrive and avoid the negativity a union would bring. At least one group isn’t divided. It’s the group that’ll continue to preserve our culture.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:37 am

This is a reminder to users to keep the discussion on topic without personal attacks.

As another reminder, it is against forum rules to maintain more than one account under any circumstance. If users use multiple accounts in a coordinated effort to attack other users, their primary account will face a severe ban. It is not difficult for us to correlate accounts, aside from the fact that it's just a childish move, so please don't do this.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
AirlineCopySir
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:50 pm

While there are no formal talks going on it would certainly benefit AA flight attendants to merge with AFA. Obviously AFA wants all flight attendants under the same umbrella for obvious reasons...more members equals more power. If you put up the AA contract against the UA contract you'll see how inferior the AA contract is. From benefits, work rules etc. The only reason AA flight attendants were better off about 8-10 years ago is because AA didn't file for BK like all the other majors until years later.

Most of the UsAir flight attendants I run into want AFA back. They've seen the difference and it's night and day. What AA flight attendants can't seem to grasp onto is that by merging with AFA they wouldn't lose their independence. AFA is setup in a way that each airline is it's own semi-autonomous union.

APFA has negotiations coming up soon and my bet is that once AA flight attendants see that they're not getting anywhere they may change their mind.

Also, I read some posts about AFA bleeding money etc...and per LM-2 reports found online they acutally have a balanced budget (even after they contribute to all the CWA programs) and are a growing union.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:00 pm

The AFA only brings in $38,000 a year more than they spend.

The became part of the CWA as the AFA was going broke.
 
Rdeggendorfer
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:02 pm

Just so you know, the inferior AA contract is around 90% from US Air and I’ll agree it does suck! Our last one had better work rules like more guaranteed time off on reserve. AFA is a pipe dream for the uneducated. I’d venture to say we’ll go non union before we go AFA. I’d vote non union over AFA every day of the week.
 
catiii
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:25 pm

jumbojet wrote:
this will just push some airlines into their next chapter 11.


alternative theory: It will not.
 
AirlineCopySir
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:04 am

Boof02671 wrote:
cessna2 wrote:
DL FAs will never have a union. The only people to blame for that is the IAM. Had IAM left and allowed AFA to run a real campaign last year, you’d be looking at 24,000 new AFA members. The support from all groups was there for AFA only. Instead the IAM combined their ramp and FA campaigns to give the appearance that they are “doing something”. It’s actually quite hilarious. Meanwhile we continue to thrive and avoid the negativity a union would bring. At least one group isn’t divided. It’s the group that’ll continue to preserve our culture.

Simone the AFA FAILED three times at Delta, it’s quite clear they are not wanted.


Anyone can see that each vote was closer and closer. I'm not sure i'd be so certain had I won an election by 150 swing votes out of 20,000. Those that use this theory simply say so in fear that the outcome may be different.

The reality is that AFA has a much better chance at Delta then the IAM will ever have. I know plenty of Delta flight attendants counting down until next year when AFA can run another campaign.
 
AirlineCopySir
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:07 am

Boof02671 wrote:
The AFA only brings in $38,000 a year more than they spend.

The became part of the CWA as the AFA was going broke.


That's because they contribute to all the CWA strategic funds and have access to these funds if they need them. The money for special negotiations, organizing campaigns etc all come from CWA. Plus, a union isn't in the business of making money. Union dues are used to serve members. If AFA had a huge surplus it means they weren't doing their job right.
 
cessna2
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:47 am

AirlineCopySir wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The AFA only brings in $38,000 a year more than they spend.

The became part of the CWA as the AFA was going broke.


That's because they contribute to all the CWA strategic funds and have access to these funds if they need them. The money for special negotiations, organizing campaigns etc all come from CWA. Plus, a union isn't in the business of making money. Union dues are used to serve members. If AFA had a huge surplus it means they weren't doing their job right.

Thank you for this very smart post. Unions were not formed for the purpose of making money, but the purpose to protect workers from the greedy management that plagued, and continues to plague our society. When someone uses an argument about a union being "broke" or "not raking in the dough" it makes me wonder what their true intentions are.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:27 pm

Actually the AFA doesn’t have access to CWA dues money, it would be a LMRDA Violation.

The CWA can loan them money, not just give it to them.

And the AFA dues money doesn’t contribute to the CWA funds, it’s against the law.

Two separate unions which each filed their own LM2.

Nothing on the AFA’s LM2 about paying into CWA Strategic Funds.

Every single penny a union spends is public record.
Those pesky laws. Lol
 
N983AN
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:44 pm

Why didn’t AFA and IAM merge?
 
Boof02671
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:43 pm

N983AN wrote:
Why didn’t AFA and IAM merge?

From what I hear is that the AFA talked with numerous unions about it and the CWA offered the most autonomy.
 
ckfred
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:28 pm

Back when UA was in Chapter 11, I remember Sara Nelson threatening a CHAOS strike against UA, because UA wanted to make drastic changes to retirement benefits. Not once did that AFA initiate a CHAOS strike, and I think the F/As got stuck with the same lousy retirement plan as most other employees. UA's pilots did undertake a slow-down in 2000 and wound up with a good contract. IIRC, the contract was so good that the proposed contract extension that AA offered to its pilots (which included forgiving the balance of the fine imposed after the Reno Air sick-out) was handily rejected.

In my mind, I wonder how much talk versus action comes out of the AFA? I seem to recall that some labor law and bankruptcy experts didn't see a clear answer as to whether a labor group under the RLA can stage a walk-out, when their contract has been voided by a bankruptcy court. If there was ever a time to potentially create some new law, that would have been it.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:48 pm

The courts ruled in the NW AFA that they couldn’t strike if their CBA was abrogated and NW won the appeal also.
 
apodino
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:57 pm

I haven't heard this about the Flight Attendants, but there has also been talk about APA reintegrating with ALPA. Not sure how much steam that has gained on the Pilot side.

One other group that has been quietly consolidating industrywide is the Dispatchers. In the past year, both Spirit and American have seen their dispatchers leave the TWU and join the PAFCA. PAFCA now represents dispatchers at all three legacy carriers, plus Spirit and Endeavor. Rumor has it Southwest has been looking at PAFCA, and so has Alaska/Virgin America. Keep an eye on this.
 
N983AN
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:12 pm

If AFA is so great why haven’t they said anything on the planned staffing cuts on UA int’l widebody aircraft effective February 2019? From what I read they will lose a galley position and will also have more galley prep work.

Why don’t they have CBA language that would prevent the company from doing this? Or at least put out an update like Pat Friend would have done back in the day?

So for all the IAM activists that paint DL as evil and variable staffing as bad for F/As it appears even the ‘iron clad’ workrule heavy AFA agreement allows management to staff as they see fit.
 
CONTACREW
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:32 pm

N983AN wrote:
If AFA is so great why haven’t they said anything on the planned staffing cuts on UA int’l widebody aircraft effective February 2019? From what I read they will lose a galley position and will also have more galley prep work.

Why don’t they have CBA language that would prevent the company from doing this? Or at least put out an update like Pat Friend would have done back in the day?

So for all the IAM activists that paint DL as evil and variable staffing as bad for F/As it appears even the ‘iron clad’ workrule heavy AFA agreement allows management to staff as they see fit.


AFA already put out an update regarding these cuts. AFA is against these cuts its management who wants to cut staffing levels to match those of AA & DL.
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
AirlineCopySir
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:47 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Actually the AFA doesn’t have access to CWA dues money, it would be a LMRDA Violation.

The CWA can loan them money, not just give it to them.

And the AFA dues money doesn’t contribute to the CWA funds, it’s against the law.

Two separate unions which each filed their own LM2.

Nothing on the AFA’s LM2 about paying into CWA Strategic Funds.

Every single penny a union spends is public record.
Those pesky laws. Lol



AFA is part of CWA. That's why it's called AFA-CWA. AFA has access to all the CWA strategic funds it contributes to. Just because they file separate LM-2s doesn't mean a thing. Most locals actually file their own LM-2s.

Here's the 2016 CWA Defense Fund report and as you can see there were several disbursements to AFA.

https://www.cwa-union.org/sites/default ... report.pdf

You've made many posts, many of which have been the definition of #fakenews. Please stop and research a subject first.
 
AirlineCopySir
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:50 pm

N983AN wrote:
If AFA is so great why haven’t they said anything on the planned staffing cuts on UA int’l widebody aircraft effective February 2019? From what I read they will lose a galley position and will also have more galley prep work.

Why don’t they have CBA language that would prevent the company from doing this? Or at least put out an update like Pat Friend would have done back in the day?

So for all the IAM activists that paint DL as evil and variable staffing as bad for F/As it appears even the ‘iron clad’ workrule heavy AFA agreement allows management to staff as they see fit.



The United AFA MEC President put out a statement yesterday and AFA International President also wrote about it.

https://unitedafa.org/news/2018/11/5/gr ... KVApQRVcOU
 
N983AN
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Re: AFA & APFA flight attendant unions consider merging

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:43 am

AirlineCopySir wrote:
N983AN wrote:
If AFA is so great why haven’t they said anything on the planned staffing cuts on UA int’l widebody aircraft effective February 2019? From what I read they will lose a galley position and will also have more galley prep work.

Why don’t they have CBA language that would prevent the company from doing this? Or at least put out an update like Pat Friend would have done back in the day?

So for all the IAM activists that paint DL as evil and variable staffing as bad for F/As it appears even the ‘iron clad’ workrule heavy AFA agreement allows management to staff as they see fit.



The United AFA MEC President put out a statement yesterday and AFA International President also wrote about it.

https://unitedafa.org/news/2018/11/5/gr ... KVApQRVcOU


Thanks I must have missed it. Appreciate the link.

Question still stands: why does the CBA language allow the company to reduce staffing? Some at AAwill surely recall the 777 staffing arbitration that APFA won and paid out to crew members who worked those flights over many years.

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