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lightsaber
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:47 pm

What is the current status of EK's 777 fleet? There was runway work... There will be more next year.

Have any of the prior frames entered service with another carrier?

Lightsaber
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SQ789
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What is the current status of EK's 777 fleet? There was runway work... There will be more next year.

Have any of the prior frames entered service with another carrier?

Lightsaber

6 77W already retired with EBV will go for Azur Air soon, EBF and EBH will be out of fleet by 2019 according to someone in flyertalks who discussed this few weeks ago (please see their fleet threat in that website), total 9 77W retired in 2019. I don't know which airframe will be stored in upcoming month, but it's supposed to be a 3 class aircraft. In addition, 6 77L's are already retrofitted with First Class removed with 4 more to go in upcoming months.
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peterinlisbon
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:31 pm

What is the rationale for retiring aircraft so early? Wouldn't it be more efficient to keep them going for a bit longer?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:58 pm

Peterinlisbon,

EK leases, so at the end of the lease:
1. EK can extend the lease for 1 or 2 years at high rates and an out of date configuration.
2. Negotiate a longer lease extension or offer to buy the aircraft.
3. Walk away, meet all lease terms, and use the excellent negotiation position to buy new cheap.

In the past, EK had exceptional utilization and it was justifiable to buy the improvements of new aircraft. At this time, the resale value of 77Ws is still excellent, so the lowest cost for EK is to return older 77Ws and accept new 77Ws to replace them.

But with recent lower utilization flying, keeping 12+ year planes around makes economic sense. They could be playing the long game trying to drive down 77W resale prices before buying. But the price will only go so low until a 77W P2F happens.

For old widebodies are for lower utilization flying. They kept during the good time the A343, 77A, 77E, and 773 (non-ER) longer. So some of this is capacity management.

I would love to know the terms of the leases. Rumor is EK stores and then refurbishes for the next airline (at their or leasing company cost). They really have redefined the relationship of airline to leasing companies.

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ek714
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:21 am

A6-EBC & A6-ECP are incorrect, Just flew on both flying Harare-Lusaka-Dubai-Sydney 21st - October 22 October
 
juliuswong
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:08 am

Emirates has so far shed 17 B777-300A/ER from their active fleet.

You may keep track of their retirement at this link: https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic Not exactly 100% accurate or up-to-date, but it is pretty correct most of the time.

Most of their B773 goes to charter and new startup airlines like Malaysia's flyGlobal and Nigeria's Air Peace. Five went to CX. One scrapped A6-EMO, one in storage A6-EMP.

B77W mostly have gone to Rossiya Airlines.

This website http://theeksource.com/aircraft.html used to be quite updated, but hasn't been so for past few months but still a good reference.
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ek714
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:03 am

ek714 wrote:
A6-EBC & A6-ECP are incorrect, Just flew on both flying Harare-Lusaka-Dubai-Sydney 21st - October 22 October


please disregard this post, i didnt read the "in and out" part, Apologies
 
VTCIE
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:22 am

A6-EMX (the last 773) will be on its way out this Saturday. It has been flying exclusively to KHI and MAA for the past few weeks. EK545 (the MAA-DXB morning flight) will be the last flight. This makes EK an officially 3-type airline: A388, 77L and 77W. Note that while EK545 was almost exclusively flown by the 773 since July or August, for the past week it was in maintenance (http://theeksource.com/emirates-b777-30 ... tenance-5/), so the regulation 777-300ER has been flying EK544-545.
 
smartplane
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:46 am

lightsaber wrote:
Peterinlisbon,

EK leases, so at the end of the lease:
1. EK can extend the lease for 1 or 2 years at high rates and an out of date configuration.
2. Negotiate a longer lease extension or offer to buy the aircraft.
3. Walk away, meet all lease terms, and use the excellent negotiation position to buy new cheap.

Not all aircraft leases are published. Publication / reporting really depends on how and where the lease is financed, and domicile of the funding participants. ANet and other observers cannot possibly know the ownership status of all EK aircraft not flying.

EOL aircraft without a new home, are generally stored in DXB or DWC, because most lease agreements, give EK first refusal to complete EOL conditioning, like engine and air frame maintenance, painting, interior refurbishment, etc in lieu of payment, and include an offset of free storage (and no transit flight required). Some EK leases include an 'on demand' hourly use agreement, which can be activated at the end of the original lease, which operates until the leasor re-homes / sells the aircraft.

A massive part of a lease is tax effective funding. Most parties are extraordinarily careful about extending leases, as this can result in them being challenged and even unwound, at a cost to leasor, leasee, financiers and funding participants. Usually, the lease is completed, and a completely new agreement created. A reason aircraft often undergo multiple ownership changes, to complete the disconnect.

Also, there are financiers and funding participants only interested in the first lease term. They have zero interest in funding 12 year old, or older aircraft. Likewise, there are other financiers who make older aircraft their focus.

Point 1 isn't quite correct. If you can extend a 12 year lease, all other factors unchanged, it is at lower cost, not higher, unless sovereign or customer risk has deteriorated.

A canny, powerful leasee, will negotiate a discount on the EOL payment, in return for a new lease, on a new aircraft.
 
travelhound
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:10 am

Considering EK have 150 777's in their fleet, 15 parked 777's equates to 10% of the fleet.

....but, if we consider EK probably received discounts that were in the region of 10% more than their competitors, parking 10% of the fleet brings them back to equal terms.

If we consider the average age of the parked aircraft is around the 9.0 year mark and aircraft are generally paid for over a 12 year period, the value of the parked aircraft only equates to 2.5% of the value of 150 aircraft at new prices.

I suspect EK have luxuries that other airlines can only dream about!
 
tvh
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:21 am

travelhound wrote:
....but, if we consider EK probably received discounts that were in the region of 10% more than their competitors, parking 10% of the fleet brings them back to equal terms.


Source ???
I believe it will be only 2 to 3 % . Maybe higher for the 777X, but that is because of launching a new type.
 
parapente
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:27 am

I believe it will be only 2-3%
Source?
 
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BOEING777EK
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:32 am

When will we see the retirement of the first 3-Class 777-300ER?
 
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SQ789
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:23 am

BOEING777EK wrote:
When will we see the retirement of the first 3-Class 777-300ER?

When you said about the 3 class retirement then I don't know really well about that, but according to a guy in flyertalks that I've discussed there earlier, there may not be a retirement until probably the 777X arrived, however as I said earlier, there are 3 more 77W coming into retirement from EK's fleet - EBF, EBH and EBV all of them are 2 class will be retired during 2019 and fly with Azur Air brining EK's 2 class 77W down to 20. 5 77W already ended up flying with Rossiya and 1 more for Azur Air. In addition, the 77L has seen 6 already been re configured into 2 class with EWC being the latest 77L.
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smartplane
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:02 am

travelhound wrote:
If we consider the average age of the parked aircraft is around the 9.0 year mark and aircraft are generally paid for over a 12 year period, the value of the parked aircraft only equates to 2.5% of the value of 150 aircraft at new prices.

Hours may also be a factor on 12 year leases. For 777's, probably capped around 50,000 hours. If you extrapolate actual hours on disclosed leases, some 8-9 year old aircraft must be well into 40-50K hours band.
 
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:27 am

smartplane wrote:
travelhound wrote:
If we consider the average age of the parked aircraft is around the 9.0 year mark and aircraft are generally paid for over a 12 year period, the value of the parked aircraft only equates to 2.5% of the value of 150 aircraft at new prices.

Hours may also be a factor on 12 year leases. For 777's, probably capped around 50,000 hours. If you extrapolate actual hours on disclosed leases, some 8-9 year old aircraft must be well into 40-50K hours band.


Yes, there are so many variables here. A fleet that flies an average of 15 hours per day instead of 12 will generate more incomes to pay for the additional expense of flying longer hours and have more cycles.

On the same point I suspect there are other factors associated with the large number of 777's currently parked.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:03 am

Did CX take any non-ER 777s from EK as flagged a while ago?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:08 pm

For those doing percent discounts, it is a percentage upfront to a large fleet parked much later.

Early money is expensive money. Late money is cheap money.

There are 138 777-300ER left in the fleet per Wikipedia. Meh... What I find just as interesting is 7 more coming in prior to the 777X.

To the posters who say more is going on, I agree. EK seems to be avoiding growth. That implies new routes are too marginal to attempt on a large scale. Cest la vie.

juliuswong wrote:
Emirates has so far shed 17 B777-300A/ER from their active fleet.


That is fascinating.

It will be even more interesting in a few years.


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SQ789
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:19 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Emirates has so far shed 17 B777-300A/ER from their active fleet.

You may keep track of their retirement at this link: https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic Not exactly 100% accurate or up-to-date, but it is pretty correct most of the time.

Most of their B773 goes to charter and new startup airlines like Malaysia's flyGlobal and Nigeria's Air Peace. Five went to CX. One scrapped A6-EMO, one in storage A6-EMP.

B77W mostly have gone to Rossiya Airlines.

This website http://theeksource.com/aircraft.html used to be quite updated, but hasn't been so for past few months but still a good reference.

This now includes 12 entire 773 and 7 77W. 12 773 already gone through another airline or getting scrapped, 5 77W already ended up in Rossiya and 2 77W ended up in Azur Air. Upcoming retirements will be 2 77W in 2019 although dates aren't announced yet. "These 77W are all identified at 2 class and with the airlines furthering 2 more in 2019 as i've said earlier and the 2 class 77W has been pronounced reduced to 20 during 2019 and all these retirements were against 3 class 77W.
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AlexA340B777
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:14 am

How about EKs 10 Boeing 77L frames?

Soon the first frames will reach the 12 years mark... will EK retire those frames as well, and if so, what will be the replacement for those ultra long haul planes?

Any update on other retirements of EKs 777 fleet?


Thanks and great weekend to all

Alex
6 continents, 85 countries, 712 flights, 88 airlines, 37 aircraft types
 
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SQ789
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:18 am

AlexA340B777 wrote:
How about EKs 10 Boeing 77L frames?

Soon the first frames will reach the 12 years mark... will EK retire those frames as well, and if so, what will be the replacement for those ultra long haul planes?

Any update on other retirements of EKs 777 fleet?


Thanks and great weekend to all

Alex

I don't heard about 77L too. Well on other side, EBF and EBH will be the next one first and the rest of EB series will go down when the first 777X touches down next year.
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MileHFL400
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:20 am

[twoid][/twoid]
AlexA340B777 wrote:
How about EKs 10 Boeing 77L frames?

Soon the first frames will reach the 12 years mark... will EK retire those frames as well, and if so, what will be the replacement for those ultra long haul planes?

Any update on other retirements of EKs 777 fleet?


Thanks and great weekend to all

Alex


777-8
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MoKa777
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:41 am

The EK 77L fleet just received an interior overhaul. They also seem to need a smaller than 77W frame, especially on the loooong routes these birds operate. These aircraft will be around until the 778 arrives in their fleet, if it does.
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texl1649
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:54 am

The 778 design isn’t even yet finalized, so any deliveries of that model as replacements are still several years out at least.
 
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:07 pm

Thanks all.
So will it be likely that EK will exceed the otherwise typical 12 year age for those birds?

Any retirement date for EBF and EBH known so far... other than this year?
6 continents, 85 countries, 712 flights, 88 airlines, 37 aircraft types
 
SteelChair
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:56 pm

EK seem not to have realized that a $10 million dollar HMV is a huge bargain compared to the lease or purchase of a $150-200 million new airplane.

One could see the market price for used 777s dropping considerably as EK floods the market with relatively new (12 year old) airplanes in the next 5-10 years.
 
smartplane
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:49 am

SteelChair wrote:
EK seem not to have realized that a $10 million dollar HMV is a huge bargain compared to the lease or purchase of a $150-200 million new airplane.

At end of lease on a new aircraft, leasee pays HMV pro rata cost. HMV is not avoidable, though a bargaining ploy is to seek a discount on outgoing EOL costs in return for leasing a new aircraft.

EK lease T&C's give them the HMV, as well as re-paint and other EOL work, subject to capacity. And until the leasor finds a new home, stored for free, but available on demand.
 
Caryjack
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:42 am

AlexA340B777 wrote:
Thanks all.
So will it be likely that EK will exceed the otherwise typical 12 year age for those birds?

Any retirement date for EBF and EBH known so far... other than this year?

As you pointed out in a previous post, the 77L is unique. I think EK, and others, will maintain that particular aircraft in service until a replacement is developed. It's a small part of any fleet so not a large burden.

I see that Boeing has delivered 59 of 60 77Ls sold. The 1st delivery was to PIA February '06, 16 years ago. As far as I know, all 59 delivered frames are still in service. True?

Thanks,
Cary
 
KICT
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:53 am

Caryjack wrote:
AlexA340B777 wrote:
Thanks all.
So will it be likely that EK will exceed the otherwise typical 12 year age for those birds?

Any retirement date for EBF and EBH known so far... other than this year?

As you pointed out in a previous post, the 77L is unique. I think EK, and others, will maintain that particular aircraft in service until a replacement is developed. It's a small part of any fleet so not a large burden.

I see that Boeing has delivered 59 of 60 77Ls sold. The 1st delivery was to PIA February '06, 16 years ago. As far as I know, all 59 delivered frames are still in service. True?

Thanks,
Cary


Etihad has started to withdraw the type from their fleet (they are all ex-Air India examples). The first one is already at Kemble being scrapped.

http://www.airportspotting.com/etihad-boeing-777-arriving-kemble/
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ZK-NBT
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:55 am

Caryjack wrote:
AlexA340B777 wrote:
Thanks all.
So will it be likely that EK will exceed the otherwise typical 12 year age for those birds?

Any retirement date for EBF and EBH known so far... other than this year?

As you pointed out in a previous post, the 77L is unique. I think EK, and others, will maintain that particular aircraft in service until a replacement is developed. It's a small part of any fleet so not a large burden.

I see that Boeing has delivered 59 of 60 77Ls sold. The 1st delivery was to PIA February '06, 16 years ago. As far as I know, all 59 delivered frames are still in service. True?

Thanks,
Cary


Given your date of FEB 06 that makes 13 years not 16 and The 5 frames EY brought off AI are now being scrapped. I’m not sure if there are others out there stored or anything.
 
5NFGS
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:53 am

Air Peace have plans for 4 ex-EK 777s
A6-EMK and A6-EMU have been taken as 5N-BVE and 5N-BUU respectively.
They apparently have plans to take 1 more of each type and commence JNB, SHJ, IAH and other routes
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KICT
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:26 pm

5NFGS wrote:
Air Peace have plans for 4 ex-EK 777s
A6-EMK and A6-EMU have been taken as 5N-BVE and 5N-BUU respectively.
They apparently have plans to take 1 more of each type and commence JNB, SHJ, IAH and other routes

Honestly I'd rather they not. I'd prefer 777s in the air, not stranded at LOS without engine(s) or impounded.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
5NFGS
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Re: Current status of EK's 777 fleet?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:31 am

KICT wrote:
5NFGS wrote:
Air Peace have plans for 4 ex-EK 777s
A6-EMK and A6-EMU have been taken as 5N-BVE and 5N-BUU respectively.
They apparently have plans to take 1 more of each type and commence JNB, SHJ, IAH and other routes

Honestly I'd rather they not. I'd prefer 777s in the air, not stranded at LOS without engine(s) or impounded.


Then give them a chance and stop being so negative about it.
I'm just a Nigerian who believes we deserve a better aviation industry, despite our issues which you will rather focus on..

Sorry for derailing......KICT we can have this conversation here
viewtopic.php?p=21053681
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bobjones12345
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Re: 15 Emirates 777-300ERs in storage - older & newer frames

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:27 pm

lightsaber wrote:
For those doing percent discounts, it is a percentage upfront to a large fleet parked much later.

Early money is expensive money. Late money is cheap money.

There are 138 777-300ER left in the fleet per Wikipedia. Meh... What I find just as interesting is 7 more coming in prior to the 777X.

To the posters who say more is going on, I agree. EK seems to be avoiding growth. That implies new routes are too marginal to attempt on a large scale. Cest la vie.

juliuswong wrote:
Emirates has so far shed 17 B777-300A/ER from their active fleet.


That is fascinating.

It will be even more interesting in a few years.


Lightsaber


I agree here- EK has stopped growing. So we should expect their capacity plan and fleet plan going forward to reflect downgauging across a lot of their routes. Stagnant LFs mean smaller planes coming to increase profitability.

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