Eyad89 wrote:

Planeflyer wrote:

In theory AB could counter BA but in reality AB has not had the cash flow to counter BA for 3-4 years.

One of the reasons why Airbus is behind in cash is the maturity of its programs, and if you take a look of their high inventory you will see how that's eating its cash. A350 will only start generating a positive cash flow this year, and the A330NEO and A320NEO aren't helping either. In a year or two, when P&W starts delivering more reliable engines and the A330NEO starts taking off the cash flow should jump. The cash flow of 2017 is double what it was in 2016 for Airbus, and it should only get better from there. Don't forget the A220 family that Airbus suddenly got without spending anything, that should help them too.

That's without counting the big difference in cash between Boeing and Airbus in the defence division.

Bricktop wrote:

Planeflyer wrote:

In theory AB could counter BA but in reality AB has not had the cash flow to counter BA for 3-4 years.

This was the year AB management promised to start the improvement of cash flow but this will be not happen. I think the fact that AB is so poor at generating cash is the real reason for the management shakeup that we see.

Either the costs to produce the 32xx are way too high or the PP offered by JL were too low but something is terribly wrong in that AB is generating so little cash flow given the number of AC delivered.. Between the 350 and 32xx programs they should be able to correct the situation but they must move quickly making tough decisions if they don't want to fall further behind.

This is what I don't understand: A.net dogma is that the A32X program is a cash machine, especially the A321 which has a high share of the NB blend. I read repeatedly that the A380 is not hurting the P&L that badly, that the A350 rollout is going as planned, and that the A330neo program, while not setting the sales world on fire was so cheap to do, that it too is solid, and any 330ceos are being made on a paid off line as well. But Airbus doesn't seem to "show me the money". Can a.net dogma be wrong, or is my understanding lost in translation from Dutch, German or Icelandic?

Planeflyer wrote:

https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/eadsy/financials/cash-flow

The above link shows FCF going back to 2013 and it makes clear that AB's cash flow woes are more structural than the recent engine problem suggests.

While it has improved over the past few years in 2017 FCF was $2.1 billion which is less than half of what Boeing generated this quarter. Through the first half of 2018 FCF was negative over 3 billion $. OK lack of engines is probably driving most of this but w AB be the the 380, the A400, the 330neo there are always negative surprises that they try to portray as a one off event.

I think new management has been brought into tighten things up.

And with the end of launch aid AB needs it can happen soon enough

JayinKitsap wrote:

VV wrote:

Oh no!! Not another damn thread full of gibberish on the deferred production cost.

Imagine the day when all the deferred costs are paid off. A new peeve will need to be found!

Planeflyer wrote:

Regards Muilenbergs comments, a good read is the earnings conference call held by Dassault systems the other day.

I’m guessing here but I think BA used the advances in 3d digital design married to know how gained in composites to win the tx and mq25 programs.

Dassault has publicly stated that in 2029 they will have massive implementation at BA which I assume will be used on the 797.

797 RD will ramp up as 777x ramps down so good flow to allow BA to perfect digital 3d design and new mfg methods in time to develop NG NB.

This the way to prep for China.

Long BA and Dassault!

brindabella wrote:

Planeflyer wrote:

Regards Muilenbergs comments, a good read is the earnings conference call held by Dassault systems the other day.

I’m guessing here but I think BA used the advances in 3d digital design married to know how gained in composites to win the tx and mq25 programs.

Dassault has publicly stated that in 2029 they will have massive implementation at BA which I assume will be used on the 797.

797 RD will ramp up as 777x ramps down so good flow to allow BA to perfect digital 3d design and new mfg methods in time to develop NG NB.

This the way to prep for China.

Long BA and Dassault!

Link please.

cheers

PlanesNTrains wrote:

brindabella wrote:

Planeflyer wrote:

Regards Muilenbergs comments, a good read is the earnings conference call held by Dassault systems the other day.

I’m guessing here but I think BA used the advances in 3d digital design married to know how gained in composites to win the tx and mq25 programs.

Dassault has publicly stated that in 2029 they will have massive implementation at BA which I assume will be used on the 797.

797 RD will ramp up as 777x ramps down so good flow to allow BA to perfect digital 3d design and new mfg methods in time to develop NG NB.

This the way to prep for China.

Long BA and Dassault!

Link please.

cheers

GIYF

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault ... 43967.html

PlanesNTrains wrote:

brindabella wrote:

Planeflyer wrote:

Regards Muilenbergs comments, a good read is the earnings conference call held by Dassault systems the other day.

I’m guessing here but I think BA used the advances in 3d digital design married to know how gained in composites to win the tx and mq25 programs.

Dassault has publicly stated that in 2029 they will have massive implementation at BA which I assume will be used on the 797.

797 RD will ramp up as 777x ramps down so good flow to allow BA to perfect digital 3d design and new mfg methods in time to develop NG NB.

This the way to prep for China.

Long BA and Dassault!

Link please.

cheers

GIYF

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault ... 43967.html

JayinKitsap wrote:

VV wrote:

Oh no!! Not another damn thread full of gibberish on the deferred production cost.

Imagine the day when all the deferred costs are paid off. A new peeve will need to be found!

Eyad89 wrote:

Don't forget the A220 family that Airbus suddenly got without spending anything, that should help them too.

On 16 October 2017, Airbus and Bombardier Aerospace announced a partnership on the CSeries program, with Airbus acquiring a 50.01% majority stake, Bombardier keeping 31% and Investissement Québec 19%, to expand in an estimated market of more than 6,000 new 100-150 seat aircraft over 20 years. Airbus's supply chain expertise should save production costs but headquarters and assembly remain in Québec while U.S. customers would benefit from a second assembly line in Mobile, Alabama. This transaction was subject to regulatory approvals and was expected to be completed in 2018.[100] Airbus did not pay for its share in the program, nor did it assume any debt.[101][102] Airbus insists that the company has no plan to buy out Bombardier's stake in the C-series program and Bombardier would remain a strategic partner after 2025, however clauses allow it to buy out Quebec's share in 2023 and Bombardier's 7 years after the deal closes, though it also stipulates production is required to remain in Quebec until at least 2041.[103][104]

brindabella wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

brindabella wrote:

Link please.

cheers

GIYF

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault ... 43967.html

Of course it is completely, utterly impossible to have any financial relationship because a French company and one from the US ...
Because ...

Well, actually I don't know why.

But in a different world, I could see Dassault and Boeing having a great deal to talk about ...

cheers

Revelation wrote:

JayinKitsap wrote:

VV wrote:

Oh no!! Not another damn thread full of gibberish on the deferred production cost.

Imagine the day when all the deferred costs are paid off. A new peeve will need to be found!

Don't worry, the cat will still chase the laser pointer, even when it is turned off.

Eyad89 wrote:

Don't forget the A220 family that Airbus suddenly got without spending anything, that should help them too.

Take us through this: When would A220 start producing positive cash flow for Airbus?

From what I recall BBD was committed to having to sink more money into the JV over the first three years, meaning it isn't expected to be cash positive over that period, and this was before they decided they needed to set up the US FAL.

Wiki says:

On 16 October 2017, Airbus and Bombardier Aerospace announced a partnership on the CSeries program, with Airbus acquiring a 50.01% majority stake, Bombardier keeping 31% and Investissement Québec 19%, to expand in an estimated market of more than 6,000 new 100-150 seat aircraft over 20 years. Airbus's supply chain expertise should save production costs but headquarters and assembly remain in Québec while U.S. customers would benefit from a second assembly line in Mobile, Alabama. This transaction was subject to regulatory approvals and was expected to be completed in 2018.[100] Airbus did not pay for its share in the program, nor did it assume any debt.[101][102] Airbus insists that the company has no plan to buy out Bombardier's stake in the C-series program and Bombardier would remain a strategic partner after 2025, however clauses allow it to buy out Quebec's share in 2023 and Bombardier's 7 years after the deal closes, though it also stipulates production is required to remain in Quebec until at least 2041.[103][104]

So its current structure doesn't look likely to change for the next 5-7 years and presumably any cash flow out of it over that period would need to be dividends shared 50/50 with BBD+QC and subject to tax.

I'm no expert on high finance but it seems it'd make more sense to keep the money within the JV till Airbus decides to buy more or all of it in the 2023-5 time frame presumably using stock swaps instead of cash to finance the bulk of it.

cledaybuck wrote:

brindabella wrote:

PlanesNTrains wrote:

GIYF

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dassault ... 43967.html

Of course it is completely, utterly impossible to have any financial relationship because a French company and one from the US ...
Because ...

Well, actually I don't know why.

But in a different world, I could see Dassault and Boeing having a great deal to talk about ...

cheers

Yeah, it's not like a French and US company power the majority of narrowbodies currently being produced or anything.