Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:55 pm

keesje wrote:
In the US Delta, American, Spirit, Jetblue, Alaska, Frontier, Hawaiian have been committing to the A321. WoW , Norwegian and Rouge have been coming in. If an United A321 order would come as a surprise for you, just don't become an investor, planner or strategist.

https://airlinegeeks.com/2017/11/21/the-hero-we-never-expected-the-rise-of-the-airbus-a321-in-the-u-s-market/


It’s always odd when you embellish something that doesn’t need to be embellished to prove a point. For example, Alaska only “committed” to the A321 because it came with the VX package. I know you know that so why you add that is weird.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8267
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:01 pm

keesje wrote:
In the US Delta, American, Spirit, Jetblue, Alaska, Frontier, Hawaiian have been committing to the A321. WoW , Norwegian and Rouge have been coming in. If an United A321 order would come as a surprise for you, just don't become an investor, planner or strategist.


Delta is taking 739s simultaneously with 321s. AA bought 738s simultaneously with 321s. Those aren't Alaska's native 321 orders - they came with the purchase of Virgin America. United already has 100 Max 10s on order. JetBlue, Frontier, and Hawaiian didn't already have hundreds of 737s in the fleet. I don't know if you are unaware of key objective facts or just dismiss them by character.
 
Coalways
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:39 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:32 pm

How many A321 would UA get if they swapped them with the A350? 80? I would rather an a321 in UA colors then an A350
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5787
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the a321lr for trasnatlantic flights

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:52 pm

DLHAM wrote:
The question is if United still wants to fly ~170 seat aircraft into deeper Europe. All 757 routes - except that one seasonal flight from Newark to Stockholm - disappeared in the recent years. Just UK/Ireland and Portugal left. I am pretty sure that this can be done by the standard A321neo too, even the 737MAX9 should be capable. Stockholm then needs an 767 upgrade or cancellation.


I think it would be nice for IAD. For instance IAD-MAD/BCN/LIS/FCO/DUB is only summer seasonal. With a smaller plane maybe they could become year-round, and also add newer destinations like MXP, MAN, OPO, DUS or TXL (if range is enough). They could make IAD what PHL is for AA.

Outside the main central European airports (AMS, CDG, LHR) and Star Alliance hubs (FRA, MUC, ZRH, BRU, VIE, CPH, IST), DC is surprisingly badly connected to Europe, specially in winter.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:58 pm

keesje wrote:
In the US Delta, American, Spirit, Jetblue, Alaska, Frontier, Hawaiian have been committing to the A321. WoW , Norwegian and Rouge have been coming in. If an United A321 order would come as a surprise for you, just don't become an investor, planner or strategist.

https://airlinegeeks.com/2017/11/21/the-hero-we-never-expected-the-rise-of-the-airbus-a321-in-the-u-s-market/


So you’re doing a victory lap on having said UA would buy 321neos, but then saying there should logically be no surprise. So which is it?

Of course it shouldn’t be a surprise that an airline with several thin TATL routes would be interested in this plane.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10177
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
keesje wrote:
In the US Delta, American, Spirit, Jetblue, Alaska, Frontier, Hawaiian have been committing to the A321. WoW , Norwegian and Rouge have been coming in. If an United A321 order would come as a surprise for you, just don't become an investor, planner or strategist.


Delta is taking 739s simultaneously with 321s. AA bought 738s simultaneously with 321s. Those aren't Alaska's native 321 orders - they came with the purchase of Virgin America. United already has 100 Max 10s on order. JetBlue, Frontier, and Hawaiian didn't already have hundreds of 737s in the fleet. I don't know if you are unaware of key objective facts or just dismiss them by character.

Geez when have Boeing fanboys become such snowflakes?
One doesn't negate the other. He never claimed that these airlines are choosing one over the other. He's making a true, factual statement. These airlines are all commited to keeping and in some cases ordering more A321's. That is fact, whether you like it or not.

MIflyer12 wrote:
United already has 100 Max 10s on order.

Doesn't seem to bother DL, AA, and UA to operate large fleets of 738's/739's and A320's simultaneously.
 
iahcsr
Posts: 4777
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 2:59 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:18 am

airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
keesje wrote:
In the US Delta, American, Spirit, Jetblue, Alaska, Frontier, Hawaiian have been committing to the A321. WoW , Norwegian and Rouge have been coming in. If an United A321 order would come as a surprise for you, just don't become an investor, planner or strategist.


Delta is taking 739s simultaneously with 321s. AA bought 738s simultaneously with 321s. Those aren't Alaska's native 321 orders - they came with the purchase of Virgin America. United already has 100 Max 10s on order. JetBlue, Frontier, and Hawaiian didn't already have hundreds of 737s in the fleet. I don't know if you are unaware of key objective facts or just dismiss them by character.

Geez when have Boeing fanboys become such snowflakes?
One doesn't negate the other. He never claimed that these airlines are choosing one over the other. He's making a true, factual statement. These airlines are all commited to keeping and in some cases ordering more A321's. That is fact, whether you like it or not.

MIflyer12 wrote:
United already has 100 Max 10s on order.

Doesn't seem to bother DL, AA, and UA to operate large fleets of 738's/739's and A320's simultaneously.

When it come right now to it UA has need ..right now... for an aircraft of a certain size and range. Right now there is only one aircraft on the market that best fits this need. So, does UA wait in the hope something better comes along, or go with ‘right now’? There are consequences either way.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:37 am

Since UA doesn’t have a hub in Europe my guess is they would use them to expand flights to Europe from EWR and IAD.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
N649DL
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:38 am

keesje wrote:
The A321LR can't carry the same number of seats of 757-200 and is payload range limited on many of the TATL routes. Specially west bound during the winter. And the bigger 767 is on the way out also, few left after 2022. Until then, they will be used on routes where they provide offer maximal value. The A330/787 are 2 steps up in operating costs & capability.

Image

Compared to the 757, operating costs will implode & an NMA is far away. So United has limited options. I see AA & DL getting LR's for the same reasons. Even for big legacy's the A321LR provides a fighting tool to break into new markets or strategically defend low margin city pairs / slots etc.

Airbus has thousands of A321NEO's in the backlog, so dramatic discounts are off the table for the foreseable future. After A321LR EASA / FAA certification a few weeks ago, first delivery can take place any moment.

Image
https://www.picbon.com/media/1892147470536859487_2139112195


UA isn't using the 757 much anymore on TATL that would push the range limit like they used to in the winter. EWR-HAM was the last casualty I believe.
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:58 am

Coalways wrote:
How many A321 would UA get if they swapped them with the A350? 80? I would rather an a321 in UA colors then an A350

Oh why why only UA colours on A321 but not A350? It would look stunning (subjective) on both. That being said, if UA is to cancel A350, this will leave only DL as the only North American airline operating A350.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14000
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:39 am

juliuswong wrote:
Coalways wrote:
How many A321 would UA get if they swapped them with the A350? 80? I would rather an a321 in UA colors then an A350

Oh why why only UA colours on A321 but not A350? It would look stunning (subjective) on both. That being said, if UA is to cancel A350, this will leave only DL as the only North American airline operating A350.


The A350 is coming. United ordered 10 additional ones last year. The alternatives are smaller 787-9s or top heavy 777-8s.

.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:31 am

N649DL wrote:
keesje wrote:
The A321LR can't carry the same number of seats of 757-200 and is payload range limited on many of the TATL routes. Specially west bound during the winter. And the bigger 767 is on the way out also, few left after 2022. Until then, they will be used on routes where they provide offer maximal value. The A330/787 are 2 steps up in operating costs & capability.

Image

Compared to the 757, operating costs will implode & an NMA is far away. So United has limited options. I see AA & DL getting LR's for the same reasons. Even for big legacy's the A321LR provides a fighting tool to break into new markets or strategically defend low margin city pairs / slots etc.

Airbus has thousands of A321NEO's in the backlog, so dramatic discounts are off the table for the foreseable future. After A321LR EASA / FAA certification a few weeks ago, first delivery can take place any moment.

Image
https://www.picbon.com/media/1892147470536859487_2139112195


UA isn't using the 757 much anymore on TATL that would push the range limit like they used to in the winter. EWR-HAM was the last casualty I believe.


Are they still using on LHR-EWR? I’d much rather fly a 757 across the pond than a 767 or 777.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:46 am

keesje wrote:
The A350 is coming. United ordered 10 additional ones last year. The alternatives are smaller 787-9s or top heavy 777-8s.


I agree the A350 is coming, but I also suspect those last few frames might get converted to A321neos. Based on the missions the 777 fleet is flying, it seems like the right replacement for the fleet would be a mix of 359s and 78Js. There are quite a few short TATL routes in the mix.
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:05 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
keesje wrote:
The A321LR can't carry the same number of seats of 757-200 and is payload range limited on many of the TATL routes. Specially west bound during the winter. And the bigger 767 is on the way out also, few left after 2022. Until then, they will be used on routes where they provide offer maximal value. The A330/787 are 2 steps up in operating costs & capability.

Image

Compared to the 757, operating costs will implode & an NMA is far away. So United has limited options. I see AA & DL getting LR's for the same reasons. Even for big legacy's the A321LR provides a fighting tool to break into new markets or strategically defend low margin city pairs / slots etc.

Airbus has thousands of A321NEO's in the backlog, so dramatic discounts are off the table for the foreseable future. After A321LR EASA / FAA certification a few weeks ago, first delivery can take place any moment.

Image
https://www.picbon.com/media/1892147470536859487_2139112195


UA isn't using the 757 much anymore on TATL that would push the range limit like they used to in the winter. EWR-HAM was the last casualty I believe.


Are they still using on LHR-EWR? I’d much rather fly a 757 across the pond than a 767 or 777.


Yes. I believe 1 or 2 flights a day are on the 757.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:31 am

At present, it is United's trying to influence Boeing on their 797 MOM plan (maybe indicating that they would prefer a NB rather than a WB here). That unless Boeing extends the project timeframe so long that their B757s can no longer hold (i.e. are too old and not economically viable...).

A350 order - it independs from this at present (depends on what the 797 will look and the kind of deal will be on the table...) but, contrary to some, I feel that there's a real likelihood that it will be cancelled. Not saying it will definitelly be cancelled; only pointing out that the likelihood is significant.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:06 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
A350 order - it independs from this at present (depends on what the 797 will look and the kind of deal will be on the table...) but, contrary to some, I feel that there's a real likelihood that it will be cancelled. Not saying it will definitelly be cancelled; only pointing out that the likelihood is significant.


Based on? The fact that the order was recently increased? That makes sense. Good post.
Good goes around!
 
HIA350
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:51 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:25 pm

I just hope that airbus make a plane base on the 220- wider and longer fuselage, bigger wings, and more composite before the 797 if boeing ever decides to launch it
 
codc10
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:52 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

UA isn't using the 757 much anymore on TATL that would push the range limit like they used to in the winter. EWR-HAM was the last casualty I believe.


Are they still using on LHR-EWR? I’d much rather fly a 757 across the pond than a 767 or 777.


Yes. I believe 1 or 2 flights a day are on the 757.


Only on random weeks during the winter, and no 757s in the summer. For the most part, EWR-LHR is an all-767 operation.

IAD-LHR-IAD early AM is the only year-round UA 757 to LHR.
 
User avatar
FlightLevel360
Posts: 406
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:09 pm

As I've previously mentioned, United will keep the A350. They will arrive within the timeframe of the first pmUA 777 retirements, and will (along with the 787-10) replace the 777-200ERs. That timeframe is also when the 797 will start to be delivered, coinciding with 757 replacements as well.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

Anti narrowbody-long range-twinjet gang. Long live the A380 and 747!
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4795
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:26 pm

It's a natural 757 replacement , united has to consider it. The only plane on the market that is a replacement. United doesn't have to order it , but of course it will be considered.
 
GripenFan
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:41 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:41 pm

At the risk of raising the ire of Airbus fans it seems like this has been going on for while but no one outside of United and Airbus knows if United actually requested a proposal or Airbus just submitted pricing as part of their regular conversations with airlines (like any other airline). Reminds of a couple of years ago when Leahy said the A380 would be good for United and everyone went crazy that an order was just around the corner...

While I agree the A321LR makes sense as a transatlantic 757 replacement in isolation, I have trouble seeing where it fits in United's larger long-term fleet plan. After all, United's been taking delivery of new 737s for while but the only Airbus additions have been a few used frames here and there...
 
flyguy84
Posts: 770
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:03 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
As I've previously mentioned, United will keep the A350. They will arrive within the timeframe of the first pmUA 777 retirements, and will (along with the 787-10) replace the 777-200ERs. That timeframe is also when the 797 will start to be delivered, coinciding with 757 replacements as well.

A) The 797 hasn’t even been announced

B) United hasn’t expressed any interest in the mythical plane

C) It’s not known to be a 757 replacement, most likely a 767 replacement which is too large.
SFO
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14000
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:03 pm

FlightLevel360 wrote:
As I've previously mentioned, United will keep the A350. They will arrive within the timeframe of the first pmUA 777 retirements, and will (along with the 787-10) replace the 777-200ERs. That timeframe is also when the 797 will start to be delivered, coinciding with 757 replacements as well.


Not sure United will hold onto the 757 for 7-10 more years. They are today 21 years old on average, with the really old one having been replaced already. They would have to spend a lot of money to keep the 757s that long. They are not exactly maintenance friendly. Their maintenance programs are very similar to 767's. Not 737s / A320s.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
mcdu
Posts: 1644
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:07 pm

keesje wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
As I've previously mentioned, United will keep the A350. They will arrive within the timeframe of the first pmUA 777 retirements, and will (along with the 787-10) replace the 777-200ERs. That timeframe is also when the 797 will start to be delivered, coinciding with 757 replacements as well.


Not sure United will hold onto the 757 for 7-10 more years. They are today 21 years old on average, with the really old one having been replaced already. They would have to spend a lot of money to keep the 757s that long. They are not exactly maintenance friendly. Their maintenance programs are very similar to 767's. Not 737s / A320s.

Image



What is the difference in the maintenance programs? Also doesn’t the ownership and or low lease cost a factor to keep the 757’s. Also you have parts and trained employees working these aircraft already. Adding a new fleet type adds to cost even one in the same family like the 321 to the 319/320 fleet.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1644
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:13 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
As I've previously mentioned, United will keep the A350. They will arrive within the timeframe of the first pmUA 777 retirements, and will (along with the 787-10) replace the 777-200ERs. That timeframe is also when the 797 will start to be delivered, coinciding with 757 replacements as well.

A) The 797 hasn’t even been announced

B) United hasn’t expressed any interest in the mythical plane

C) It’s not known to be a 757 replacement, most likely a 767 replacement which is too large.


I have heard UA leadership speak of working with Boeing on the desires for the 797 aka MOM,NMA. So yes there is an interest. I think they have an interest in any airplane at the right price and specifics. Just because they have not publicly stated they are wanting the 797 doesn’t mean they don’t want them.
 
ord
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:09 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
B) United hasn’t expressed any interest in the mythical plane


This is not true.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-446322/
"United Airlines is considering the Airbus A330-800neo and Boeing New Mid-market Airplane (NMA) among options to replace its fleet of aging Boeing 757s and 767s."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... pt-434905/
"United ‘very interested’ in Boeing MoM concept"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ew-797-jet
"Delta Air Lines Inc. and United Continental Holdings Inc. are among the operators that have signaled their interest in the 797, which is known within Boeing as the NMA -- for new middle-of-market aircraft."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... at-it-sees
"United Looks at Boeing's ‘Paper Plane’ and Likes What It Sees"
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14000
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:24 pm

Having experienced the combination of airline communication, translation & selection by press / interest groups and OE PR tactics for 25 years, “showing interest” seems a weakish and often overated qualifier to me. :yes:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
User avatar
msp747
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:08 pm

keesje wrote:
Having experienced the combination of airline communication, translation & selection by press / interest groups and OE PR tactics for 25 years, “showing interest” seems a weakish and often overated qualifier to me. :yes:


Then shouldn't we just shut down this thread? The article that is the basis for this thread is a "showing interest" piece. In fact, there was so little information in it, that at least half of the article talked about how the plane could be configured for an ULCC. In the end, this is all just speculation and discussion on the best way forward for UA, with pro-Airbus people like yourself saying buy it and pro-Boeing people saying wait for the potential 797.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:11 pm

keesje wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
As I've previously mentioned, United will keep the A350. They will arrive within the timeframe of the first pmUA 777 retirements, and will (along with the 787-10) replace the 777-200ERs. That timeframe is also when the 797 will start to be delivered, coinciding with 757 replacements as well.


Not sure United will hold onto the 757 for 7-10 more years. They are today 21 years old on average, with the really old one having been replaced already. They would have to spend a lot of money to keep the 757s that long. They are not exactly maintenance friendly. Their maintenance programs are very similar to 767's.g]


The A320s and 757s are on average the same age (between 20 and 21 years) for United. 737-10s can replace both for the domestic fleet. The low cycle 2000 vintage 757s certainly could fly another 10 years. UAs oldest 757 now is 29 years so we know the newer planes can fly for another 10 years.
 
N649DL
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:19 pm

keesje wrote:
FlightLevel360 wrote:
As I've previously mentioned, United will keep the A350. They will arrive within the timeframe of the first pmUA 777 retirements, and will (along with the 787-10) replace the 777-200ERs. That timeframe is also when the 797 will start to be delivered, coinciding with 757 replacements as well.


Not sure United will hold onto the 757 for 7-10 more years. They are today 21 years old on average, with the really old one having been replaced already. They would have to spend a lot of money to keep the 757s that long. They are not exactly maintenance friendly. Their maintenance programs are very similar to 767's. Not 737s / A320s.

Image


They could keep some 757s frame going until the middle of the next decade at least, it really all depends on MX upkeep and cycle limits. The late 90s builds at least. There are definitely quite a few PMUA 757s in the desert they could always pull out just in case this happens.
 
Vladex
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:44 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:40 pm

Is United really flying this airplane on the main LAX-NYC route?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z1EHf8nXw8
https://youtu.be/1Z1EHf8nXw8?t=338
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:37 pm

Vladex wrote:
Is United really flying this airplane on the main LAX-NYC route?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z1EHf8nXw8
https://youtu.be/1Z1EHf8nXw8?t=338


Where have you been?
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14000
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:44 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Since UA doesn’t have a hub in Europe my guess is they would use them to expand flights to Europe from EWR and IAD.


If Airbus really launched and A321XLR short term, that would make a difference for ORD flights too, specially west bound.

3800NM, 4300NM and 4700NM ranges from Chicago ORD : http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=HAM,+BER,+DUS,+MIL&R=3800NM%40ORD,+4300NM%40ORD,+4700NM%40ORD&MS=wls2&MR=1800&MX=720x360&PM=*
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WIederling
Posts: 9346
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:58 pm

Turnhouse1 wrote:
The ACTs aren't unique to the A321LR, they're an available option on all A320 series aircraft, though only 2. Is it a common option to have 1 or 2 fitted, if so the weight difference might be less than expected?


IMU you can even mount 5 or 6. But that only makes sense on the ACJ types as the fuel cuts strongly into payload.
Which again is not an issue with the oversize ego transporters. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14000
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:16 am

Timewise & looking at their TATL requirements, United could be a launching customer for a higher range A321LRX to fullfill their near term fleet replace target.

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/airbus-hints-at-decision-on-new-a321-version-next-year-20181126-00939

An NMA won't be available in numbers until at least 2026, meanwhile the 757s unit cost go up, specially now increasing fuel prices are back. Strategically, if United doesn't take initiatives on developing secondary destination opportunities from their hubs, others will do so.

4000NM range from EWR:
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=EWR-LIN,+EWR ... f0000&RW=3

Image

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
727200
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:31 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:00 pm

Uh, no there wont be a 321 or any varient in their fleet but there will be a new entry, its called the MOM. UA has already said they want to be the launch customer and it fits within their time frame.

If UA really wanted any of the 321 series, they would have ordered them by now. Plus dont forget the AA purchase clause which kills a deal by UA
 
FriscoHeavy
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:34 pm

keesje wrote:
Timewise & looking at their TATL requirements, United could be a launching customer for a higher range A321LRX to fullfill their near term fleet replace target.

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/airbus-hints-at-decision-on-new-a321-version-next-year-20181126-00939

An NMA won't be available in numbers until at least 2026, meanwhile the 757s unit cost go up, specially now increasing fuel prices are back. Strategically, if United doesn't take initiatives on developing secondary destination opportunities from their hubs, others will do so.

4000NM range from EWR:
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=EWR-LIN,+EWR ... f0000&RW=3

Image

Image


Sure, unit cost will go up. However, a shiny new plane with a large payment won't overcome rising unit cost of the newer 757s in the fleet any time soon, especially since the 757s are paid for.
Whatever
 
estorilm
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:52 pm

727200 wrote:
Uh, no there wont be a 321 or any varient in their fleet but there will be a new entry, its called the MOM. UA has already said they want to be the launch customer and it fits within their time frame.

If UA really wanted any of the 321 series, they would have ordered them by now. Plus dont forget the AA purchase clause which kills a deal by UA

You must know a lot more than me and most of the other folks in this thread. :)

Called the MoM? Jeez, I had no idea! Fill me in on its concrete details (the ones UA needs to know right now) - its size, performance, range, price, and most importantly - delivery date.

How do you figure it fits within their time frame? UA is running out of options for NB / longer range routes when you start looking a few years out.

Your own comments contradict themselves. On one hand you say the MoM "fits into their timeline perfectly" which would be 6+ years AT BEST. Yet you go on to say that if UA was going to order the 321NEO/LR they would have done it already? Those are opposite lines of thinking - and personally I think it's a mix of the two right in the middle. UA needs something in the next couple years - gambling on something they can't even remotely quantify in the MoM is very risky.

They know what they're getting with the 321, they can get them fairly quickly, and it already shares fleet comonality with their maintenance and crew ops. It's also guaranteed to be cheaper than the MoM, and currently offers a ridiculous CASM advantage over the 757 somewhere over 20%.
 
spannacomo
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:22 pm

keesje wrote:

nice map, but LIN should not be there, italian law does not permit flights from outside the EU, sorry. You are welcome to land in MXP though ;-)
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:31 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Sure, unit cost will go up. However, a shiny new plane with a large payment won't overcome rising unit cost of the newer 757s in the fleet any time soon, especially since the 757s are paid for.


What is the airframe life on the 757s?

How much certified life is left? Are there any D checks due?

It might not just be the fuel savings that define when the 757s are retired.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19176
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:40 pm

727200 wrote:
Plus dont forget the AA purchase clause which kills a deal by UA


It's pretty naive to believe that Airbus painted themselves into such a corner that there's no creative way out. :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:09 pm

keesje wrote:
Timewise & looking at their TATL requirements, United could be a launching customer for a higher range A321LRX to fullfill their near term fleet replace target.

https://www.nasdaq.com/article/airbus-hints-at-decision-on-new-a321-version-next-year-20181126-00939

An NMA won't be available in numbers until at least 2026, meanwhile the 757s unit cost go up, specially now increasing fuel prices are back. Strategically, if United doesn't take initiatives on developing secondary destination opportunities from their hubs, others will do so.

4000NM range from EWR:
http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=EWR-LIN,+EWR ... f0000&RW=3

Image

Image


Hasn’t the oil price recently dropped?

There is no rush to order. I am sure United will wait to see what Boeing can propose before committing to a new aircraft.

With load factors on those 757’s, they are still making decent money.
 
flyguy84
Posts: 770
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:48 pm

Nobody knows what the 797/NMA/MOM will be. The latest reports suggest it will be more of a 767 replacement, not a 757 replacement. Yet everyone wants to keep claiming it will be a 757 replacement. +200 seats is way too big of an airplane to claim it’s going to replace the 757.
SFO
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:59 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
Nobody knows what the 797/NMA/MOM will be. The latest reports suggest it will be more of a 767 replacement, not a 757 replacement. Yet everyone wants to keep claiming it will be a 757 replacement. +200 seats is way too big of an airplane to claim it’s going to replace the 757.


The US airlines have essentially asked for a 767 replacement if you look at the seating requirements and range. The US carriers weren’t carrying anything over 190 on their TATL 757s.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:15 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
Nobody knows what the 797/NMA/MOM will be. The latest reports suggest it will be more of a 767 replacement, not a 757 replacement. Yet everyone wants to keep claiming it will be a 757 replacement. +200 seats is way too big of an airplane to claim it’s going to replace the 757.


If the trip cost is similar to or lower than the 757, it can be a 757 replacement. Extra revenue potential is gravy.

All information we have suggests that fuel consumption should be lower than the 757-200. Maintenance will certainly be lower - the 757/767 are maintenance hogs by modern standards, especially as they age. The only cost driver will be the additional 1-2 FAs, pretty minor. I suspect trip cost will be lower than the 757-200s UA is operating today, and MOM will be a fine international 757 replacement.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14000
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: United proposes purchasing the A321LR for transatlantic flights

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:31 pm

seabosdca wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
Nobody knows what the 797/NMA/MOM will be. The latest reports suggest it will be more of a 767 replacement, not a 757 replacement. Yet everyone wants to keep claiming it will be a 757 replacement. +200 seats is way too big of an airplane to claim it’s going to replace the 757.


If the trip cost is similar to or lower than the 757, it can be a 757 replacement. Extra revenue potential is gravy.

All information we have suggests that fuel consumption should be lower than the 757-200. Maintenance will certainly be lower - the 757/767 are maintenance hogs by modern standards, especially as they age. The only cost driver will be the additional 1-2 FAs, pretty minor. I suspect trip cost will be lower than the 757-200s UA is operating today, and MOM will be a fine international 757 replacement.


I don't think the 757 is the benchmark anymore. Airbus has thousands of A321NEO's in their backlog, among which 757 operators AA and Delta. I think the
767 spec is not what airlines asked for, it's what is left over above the A321. And United will probably also not wait for a first delivery in 2026.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos