lightmac
Topic Author
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:56 pm

A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adria

Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:53 pm

The flights between Germany's national capital, Berlin, and one of the state capitals, Saarbruecken, is run by Luxair of Luxembourg, operated by Adria Airways from Slovenia. This seems bizarre. I have been on this flight several times and it works just fine, except the identity of the airline that you are actually flying with is quite opaque. The crews are slovenian, all branding is luxembourg-ish, no inflight magazine etc. Announcements are in German and English. Is this unique?
Coul/should Eurowings operate the flight (instead), what is the deal with this flight?
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5388
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:54 pm

Air Berlin used to operate SCN-TXL. It went bankrupt and it was taken over a few months later by Luxair. LG also operates SCN-HAM.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3041
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:24 pm

lightmac wrote:
Is this unique?
Coul/should Eurowings operate the flight (instead), what is the deal with this flight?


No, not at all. EasyJet is Austrian or English, and has a major base in Berlin.

Other EU examples I can think of:

Blue Air (Romania) operating domestic Italian flights, many of which are code-shared with Alitalia. Some of those are even subcontracted to other Romanian contractors.

Czech Airlines, operated by Travel Service (Czech Rep.), operated by Smartwings (Czech Rep.), operated by either Swift Air (US) or Go2Sky (Slovakia).


To the second point:

Why should Eurowings operate the flight over Luxair/Adria? Why not? Luxair is not LH Group. Luxair sees a way to make money on the route. Giving it to LH Group would mean not making money on that route. Saabrücken is also really close to Luxembourg, it only takes an hour and 20 minutes by car.
 
rlwynn
Posts: 1397
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:35 am

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:34 pm

And flights to Munich are with BMI.
I can drive faster than you
 
JayBCNLON
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:13 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:19 pm

We are truly European :) I love it. Some time ago I flew Ryanair from CGN to TXL ... the aircraft and crew came from OPO, and it was wonderful to fly German domestic with a crew from Portugal .
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 848
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:33 pm

Intra-Schengen flights mean any airline based there can fly any route, "international" or "domestic", within the Schengen zone. In that regard, I would say to think of the Schengen countries like the American states, and someone flying LAX-JFK would be entirely domestic, even though one ends up in a different state. Not everything in Europe is on that level, but air travel is.
 
ei146
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:36 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Intra-Schengen flights mean any airline based there can fly any route, "international" or "domestic", within the Schengen zone. In that regard, I would say to think of the Schengen countries like the American states, and someone flying LAX-JFK would be entirely domestic, even though one ends up in a different state. Not everything in Europe is on that level, but air travel is.


You are right and you are wrong, as you mix up some of the agreements.
Schengen treaty is essentially about removel of border checks between Schengen countries. So you can travel between these countries without anyone checkin your passport.
But airlines operate according to the rules in the agreement on the European Economic Area. This includes the Schengen area but is much larger. It covers all EU members and some additional states. The agreement provides for the free movement of persons (somebody might check your passport though at the border), goods, services and capital (the so-called four freedoms) and thus creates the European Single Market.
Each company within this area can offer their service in the whole area. So an airline from Luxembourg can operate domestic flights in Germany and subcontract that service to a company from Slovakia. This is also how Ryanair, Easyjet or Wizz Air could grow to their current size.

BTW, this is also what makes Brexit so difficult: This whole thing can only work if all of the participating countries accept all of the four freedoms. The UK government has a different oppinion though.
 
AstanaMagic
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:37 am

I recently flew on a Lufthansa flight from ZAG to FRA, operated by Air Nostrum, everything in English and German. Catering was a lot more superior than what I am used to with IB
2019: ALA, AGP, AMM, DXB, FRA, GYD, IST, KBP, KSQ, LGW, LHR, MAD, SVQ, TAS, TBS, TSE, XRY
A/C: 319, 32B, 32S, 32Q, 32V, 321, 333, 332, 73H, 73J, 75W, 76W, 77E, 788, E90, GL5T
A/L: BA, IB, J2, JY, KC, LH, PS, TK, U2
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5388
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:45 am

As for why not Eurowings, they had the time to start the route after Air Berlin collapsed in August 2017.

As for why Adria, I imagine this was a venture for Luxair, so it is better/easy to subcontract those planes and crews rather than using their own staff and planes (in case they have the availability).

I imagine SCN-TXL is quite small and corporate-driven, so a smaller plane with multiple daily frequency with high fares would work better than a bigger plane with lower fares and maybe 1 daily. SCN is after all a very small market and airport.

It is also noteworthy that Eurowings does not fly to LUX, so probably it is also a small market for them. I would have imagined TXL-LUX could work on Eurowings.
 
User avatar
conaly
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:18 am

When Air Berlin had their hub in PMI, they operated flights from Palma to Spain, France, Switzerland and Austria despite being a German airline. So it's not unique, this has been done for quite a while.

This year, I was flying on OSL-HAU, booked as Lufthansa codeshare flight by Scandinavian Airlines, operated by Ireland-based CityJet. Austrian operates flights NUE-ZRH on behalf of Swiss with an LX flight number but with Austrian aircraft and crew. The planes are all in Star Alliance livery, with extremely small text saying "On behalf of Member carrier Swiss International Airlines" below the *A-label and tiny text "Operated by Austrian Airlines" next to the doors).
Airports 2019: ADB, ALG, AMD, ATL, BOS, CTS, DEL, DTW, DUS, EWR, FRA, FUK, HAM, HIJ, HND, IST, JFK, MUC, NGO, NUE, OKA, PHL, SIN, STN, YYZ
Planned 2019: BOG, CDG, FRA, MUC, NUE, ZRH
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3041
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:03 am

ei146 wrote:
But airlines operate according to the rules in the agreement on the European Economic Area. This includes the Schengen area but is much larger. It covers all EU members and some additional states. The agreement provides for the free movement of persons (somebody might check your passport though at the border), goods, services and capital (the so-called four freedoms) and thus creates the European Single Market.


Strictly speaking, it's the European Common Aviation Area (ECAA), which builds on the EEA ;)
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:15 am

Exactly, and the European single market. There are no domestic flights in Germany or Italy, the single market is domestic

There are some exceptions for ECAA.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 848
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:19 pm

ei146 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Intra-Schengen flights mean any airline based there can fly any route, "international" or "domestic", within the Schengen zone. In that regard, I would say to think of the Schengen countries like the American states, and someone flying LAX-JFK would be entirely domestic, even though one ends up in a different state. Not everything in Europe is on that level, but air travel is.


You are right and you are wrong, as you mix up some of the agreements.
Schengen treaty is essentially about removel of border checks between Schengen countries. So you can travel between these countries without anyone checkin your passport.
But airlines operate according to the rules in the agreement on the European Economic Area. This includes the Schengen area but is much larger. It covers all EU members and some additional states. The agreement provides for the free movement of persons (somebody might check your passport though at the border), goods, services and capital (the so-called four freedoms) and thus creates the European Single Market.
Each company within this area can offer their service in the whole area. So an airline from Luxembourg can operate domestic flights in Germany and subcontract that service to a company from Slovakia. This is also how Ryanair, Easyjet or Wizz Air could grow to their current size.

BTW, this is also what makes Brexit so difficult: This whole thing can only work if all of the participating countries accept all of the four freedoms. The UK government has a different oppinion though.


Agreed with you 100% on all point; my point, though, was simply about air travel and nothing else within that topic. That's why Luxair can operate an 'intra-German" route, but I meant it only for air travel. We were intra-Schengen flying into Zurich; however, they don't use the Euro, meaning they aren't as much a part of it.

It's like explaining "Britain" versus "Great Britain" versus "United Kingdom". Makes my head hurt.
 
LennyM8472
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:08 am

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:34 pm

lightmac wrote:
The flights between Germany's national capital, Berlin, and one of the state capitals, Saarbruecken, is run by Luxair of Luxembourg, operated by Adria Airways from Slovenia. This seems bizarre. I have been on this flight several times and it works just fine, except the identity of the airline that you are actually flying with is quite opaque. The crews are slovenian, all branding is luxembourg-ish, no inflight magazine etc. Announcements are in German and English. Is this unique?
Coul/should Eurowings operate the flight (instead), what is the deal with this flight?


LUX - HAM also stops in Saarbruecken:

6:00 PM
Luxembourg Airport LUX
Travel time: 30m
6:30 PM
Saarbrücken Airport SCN

15m layover
Saarbrücken SCN

6:45 PM
Saarbrücken Airport SCN
Travel time: 1h 15m
8:00 PM
Hamburg Airport HAM
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: A German domestic route flown by Luxair, operated by Adriar

Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:08 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
That's why Luxair can operate an 'intra-German" route, but I meant it only for air travel. We were intra-Schengen flying into Zurich; however, they don't use the Euro, meaning they aren't as much a part of it.


The Schengen Convention applies purely to the administration of border controls between its signatory countries, which in at the time of first agreement in 1985 were five of the then-ten members of the European Economic Community. Its original formal name reveals this clearly: "Agreement between the Governments of the States of the Benelux Economic Union, the Federal Republic of Germany and the French Republic on the gradual abolition of checks at their common borders".

It was made a core part of EU law by the Amsterdam Treaty in 1999 and accession is now mandatory for new EU members, but it's still a technically-separate arrangement and thus cannot be conflated with overall participation in the EU.

For example, Switzerland is not an EU member but has voluntarily acceded to the Schengen Convention - meaning that there are no immigration controls between Switzerland and other Schengen countries, but they do not participate in either the European Customs Union or European Monetary Union.

Conversely, the UK does participate in the Customs Union but has a grandfathered exception from the Monetary Union (alongside Denmark) and also from the Schengen Convention (alongside the Republic of Ireland).

lightmac wrote:
Is this unique?


Not a European example, but the Trans-Tasman Single Aviation Market allows for similar arrangements. At the moment Jetstar (a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Qantas Group) market domestic flights in New Zealand using Australian-registered aircraft in Jetstar livery, but operated by Eastern Australia Airlines, another QF subsidiary.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos