UA857
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Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:54 am

Back in 2001 United flew nonstop from JFK-HKG. Why was the route cut?
 
mrwhistler
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:56 am

UA cut JFK to a spoke after 9/11. Anyway, I don't think they could have been making much money on the flight with the flight primarily relying on O/D traffic.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:03 am

This topic has come up on here. Uniteds JFK longhaul network except London was burning money at a time united was having cash flow problems. These routes had to go to save the airline.
 
United Airline
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:09 am

It was cut about a month before 9.11.

From what I heard due to union+ETOPS issues back then staff were unwilling to fly a twin engine aircraft via north pole. They wanted to use the B777-200ER but was forced to use the B747-400 with restricted payload and thus this route became unprofitable.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:37 am

It flew for a month or two at most in response to CO nonstop from EWR.

Ended before 9/11
 
evanb
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:28 pm

United Airline wrote:
From what I heard due to union+ETOPS issues back then staff were unwilling to fly a twin engine aircraft via north pole. They wanted to use the B777-200ER but was forced to use the B747-400 with restricted payload and thus this route became unprofitable.


I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Both the B777-200ER and B747-400 should be able to get out of JFK at or near MTOW, due to JFK being at sea level and not having particularly hot temperatures and having decent runway length in multiple directions. If anything, the one that would take a payload hit by not being able to go out at MTOW it would be the B777-200ER, rather than the B747-400 (twin versus quad).

The next question is what paying payload (pax and cargo) it would have to leave behind to carry the fuel, and again, I'm pretty sure that the B747-400 would leave less behind compared to the B777-200ER.

The bigger question though would be fuel burn where the B777-200ER would win. But I think it's incorrect to say that the B747-400 became unprofitable on this route due to payload penalties when the B777-200ER would have suffered a similar, if not worse fate.
 
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STT757
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:38 pm

It was a competitive response to CO launching EWR-HKG, UA's response did not last long due to poor performance.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:31 pm

United launched JFK-HKG to compete with CO, which had launched it earlier (EWR-HKG). CO's 772ERs were newer and had the range to fly EWR-HKG without penalties. UA's 772s were not in the same category and UA flew it with a 747-400. UA's JFK operation was always small, limited to LHR, GRU, EZE, NRT, LAX, SFO, SEA, SJU, CCS, ORD, IAD. The GRU and EZE routes were moved to IAD. LHR slots (they had 3 x per day) were sold to DL. NRT was cut. HKG was short lived and cut immediately after 9/11. SEA was cut when B6 expanded. CCS, ORD, SJU were not daily and were short lived as well. SFO, LAX, and IAD remained until UA decided to close JFK and consolidate at EWR in 2014.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:32 pm

UA operated JFK-LHR (it was done to one daily until 2006). That was the last international route UA had from JFK.
 
tpaewr
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:46 pm

Here is a link from the time. Basically as stated, it was a knee jerk reaction to CO. It was a short lived bust.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/e ... index.html
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:57 pm

This route never had a chance against continental at EWR. Wouldn't have mattered what type of plane. They had no feed.

I don't buy the 747-400 had restrictions out of JFK as stated its not hot and at sea level. It hasn't been over 100 official degrees in NYC since 2006 or something and JFK is on the water. It's extremely humid but not hot.
 
UA857
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:25 pm

Did United need modified 747-400s to fly JFK-HKG?
 
jfk777
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:19 pm

What was the "miracle" which allowed United to fly nonstop from JFK to HKG that was not used by other airlines. Cathay Pacific only flew nonstop with a 744 once, the day the new airport opened in Hong Kong. IF CX could have flown nonstop with a 744 they would have but they did with A340-600 and now 777-300ER's. If the proposition of flying nonstop from JFK to HKG with a 744 was so good others would have done it. What was the secret sauce ?
 
ORDJOE
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:29 pm

UA857 wrote:
Did United need modified 747-400s to fly JFK-HKG?


Some one posted an old seat map on a recent post and ua had 2 configurations of 747 one was premium heavy the other regular 3 class. The premium heavy was apparently used on this route
 
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airzim
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:55 pm

evanb wrote:
United Airline wrote:
From what I heard due to union+ETOPS issues back then staff were unwilling to fly a twin engine aircraft via north pole. They wanted to use the B777-200ER but was forced to use the B747-400 with restricted payload and thus this route became unprofitable.


I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Both the B777-200ER and B747-400 should be able to get out of JFK at or near MTOW, due to JFK being at sea level and not having particularly hot temperatures and having decent runway length in multiple directions. If anything, the one that would take a payload hit by not being able to go out at MTOW it would be the B777-200ER, rather than the B747-400 (twin versus quad).

The next question is what paying payload (pax and cargo) it would have to leave behind to carry the fuel, and again, I'm pretty sure that the B747-400 would leave less behind compared to the B777-200ER.

The bigger question though would be fuel burn where the B777-200ER would win. But I think it's incorrect to say that the B747-400 became unprofitable on this route due to payload penalties when the B777-200ER would have suffered a similar, if not worse fate.


I seem to remember, (and honestly don't know if this is true), that the PW 77Es at UA were not capable of making JFK-HKG consistently or economically without either an increase to MTOW or an engine software update, compared to the GEs over at CO which could make the journey once overflight opportunities became available over Russia and China. The 744 was pretty much their only option, and only with significant payload penalties which ultimately doomed the flight due to terrible economics.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:02 pm

jfk777 wrote:
What was the "miracle" which allowed United to fly nonstop from JFK to HKG that was not used by other airlines. Cathay Pacific only flew nonstop with a 744 once, the day the new airport opened in Hong Kong. IF CX could have flown nonstop with a 744 they would have but they did with A340-600 and now 777-300ER's. If the proposition of flying nonstop from JFK to HKG with a 744 was so good others would have done it. What was the secret sauce ?


Did they?


I seem to remember Cathay starting the route after all of these nonstops... when they got the 777 that could do it.

I’m not 100% sure but before that it stopped in Vancouver. They still run that flight.

They subsequently added another two or three nonstop flights. More recently they start at Newark
 
UA857
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:43 pm

Did United need modified 747-400s to fly JFK-HKG?
 
UA857
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:51 pm

Did United need modified 747-400s to fly JFK-HKG?
 
UA857
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:28 pm

Will United relaunch JFK-HKG if they return to JFK?
 
USPIT10L
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:20 pm

Why would they since they already fly EWRHKG?
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
UA857
Topic Author
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:22 am

Why didn’t UA considered JFK as a hub?
 
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STT757
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:38 am

[threeid][/threeid]
UA857 wrote:
Why didn’t UA considered JFK as a hub?


Because it wasn't, historically they were handling more passengers through EWR than JFK.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:00 am

Search is your friend for those kind of questions, OP.

I've noticed a number of your questions has been asked before previously.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:11 am

jfklganyc wrote:
It flew for a month or two at most in response to CO nonstop from EWR.

Ended before 9/11


Service started in April 2001 and was discontinued, I believe, in late August of the same year. So 5 months - let's give it the credit due! I flew it 4 times and it was always empty. It had lousy connections both ways on the HKG end with UA-metal to SIN and SGN. No feed at JFK. After 9/11 JFK was slowly chipped down, with NRT and LHR gone in 2006 and then finally LAX/SFO/IAD gone in 2016
Let's keep the skies friendly.
 
TWA85
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:59 am

Why did UA feel the need to respond to CO starting EWR-HKG? It would make more sense if UA was responding to AA starting ORD-XXX or DL starting LAX-ZZZ, etc; where UA would be trying to protect their market share at their hubs. JFK wasn't a hub for UA so there wasn't much market share to protect. Was JFK-HKG more about UA protecting their market share in HKG?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:17 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This route never had a chance against continental at EWR. Wouldn't have mattered what type of plane. They had no feed.

I don't buy the 747-400 had restrictions out of JFK as stated its not hot and at sea level. It hasn't been over 100 official degrees in NYC since 2006 or something and JFK is on the water. It's extremely humid but not hot.


United had some of the first 744's and had 7285nm still air range & 372 sets (vs 412 boeing spec at that time.)

FK-HKG is 7014nm range. So with headwinds they would have had to restrict seats or cargo.
 
tpaewr
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Re: Why did UA cut JFK-HKG?

Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:32 am

TWA85 wrote:
Why did UA feel the need to respond to CO starting EWR-HKG? It would make more sense if UA was responding to AA starting ORD-XXX or DL starting LAX-ZZZ, etc; where UA would be trying to protect their market share at their hubs. JFK wasn't a hub for UA so there wasn't much market share to protect. Was JFK-HKG more about UA protecting their market share in HKG?



UA felt it was protecting its historic (via Pan Am) Asian legacy. It has already long lost its position in Latin America to CO with Europe too follow.

I think the optics of the younger sibling taking the lead (UA & CO has the same founder) was an affront to their ego in that day. At the time it received a bit of media attention. UA made a point to promote their 747 F cabin that CO 777 lacked.

It was all for not. UA soon cut HKG and eventually all international from JFK.

For CO HKG was just the start with PEK PVG DEL BOM all to join Continental Asian nonstops from EWR (I know technically TLV is too, but not really)


The ultimate irony was the merger when two airlines founded by Varney rejoined and it all became moot.

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