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AirCanada777X
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:25 pm

Although extremely, extremely unlikely, perhaps this is a MS990 repeat, because of the random nosedives. Like many others, I have the same questions for how such a young plane could suddenly nosedive into the sea like flight 610 did.
 
sandyb123
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:51 pm

Out of interest, is Lion air SOP to have the departure manually flown or am I misunderstanding the data.

If the flight was being flown by the flight director / autopilot then the aircraft would I assume automatically compensate increased speed due to altitude loss with the engine throttle and even the speed brake? These overspeed events in the flight before and the ill fated flight would not have happened?

RIP to all involved.

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spacecadet
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:52 pm

AirCanada777X wrote:
Although extremely, extremely unlikely, perhaps this is a MS990 repeat, because of the random nosedives.


Nothing about this accident suggests it was an intentional act. Unless you're saying you subscribe to one of Egypt's alternate theories, none of which were reproducible in tests.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:06 pm

Trin wrote:
salttee wrote:
aden23 wrote:
Are you suggesting that a pilot with 6,000 hours wouldn't know the difference between what it feels like when his aircraft is climbing, vs. when it's pointed straight at the ground?

If they're in clouds with no visual reference and instrument failure, how would anybody be able to tell up from down?


Gravity. They aren't in orbit - 5,000ft or so does not change your body's perception of gravity. The notion that they could have ended up INVERTED or pointing towards the ground like a shuttlecock (WITHOUT THE PILOTS KNOWING) is just stupid.

Trin


As mentioned by several of us upthread disorientation is a common occurence in aviation. You can easily think you're banked when you're not, or pitched up or down differently from reality. Pilots have ended up inverted in cloud with little awareness of their actual attitude.

This is why we are taught to trust our instruments. And that's why things like unreliable airspeed are so insidious.



HappyKasper wrote:
A330freak wrote:
And eyewitness accounts of the crash
Two fishermen who saw the crash from their boat out at sea told Reuters that the plane swayed slightly but made no noise as it fell, almost horizontal with its nose slightly down. There was an explosive sound as it plunged nose-first into the sea, and then there was a column of smoke.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL3N1XA2G7


So if that's an accurate account, and eyewitness accounts rarely are, it sounds like it could've been a stall. But how would a stall have the extremely high ground speed indicated by the ADS-B data?



Aircraft can stall at any speed and attitude.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:28 pm

zeke wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The autopilot wouldn't keep speed and altitude if it wasn't receiving reliable airspeed data. Which is why the first line of an unreliable airspeed procedure is "disconnect AP".


The 737NG QRH has this


Airspeed Unreliable

Condition:

The pitch attitude is not consistent with the phase of flight, altitude, thrust and weight, or noise or low frequency buffeting is experienced.

Objective:

To establish the normal pitch attitude and thrust setting for the phase of flight.

1 Adjust the airplane attitude and thrust. Maintain airplane control.

2 PROBE HEAT switches . . . . . . . . . . . . . Check ON

3 Cross check the MACH/AIRSPEED indicators.

4 Cross check the IRS and FMC ground speed and winds to determine airspeed accuracy if indicated airspeed is questionable.

Note: Erroneous or unreliable airspeed indications may be caused by blocked or frozen pitot-static system(s), or a severely damaged or missing radome.

5 Attitude and thrust information is located in the Performance Inflight section.

FCTM

Airspeed Unreliable

Airspeed Unreliable

Unreliable airspeed indications can result from blocking or freezing of the pitot/static system or a severely damaged or missing radome. When the ram air inlet to the pitot head is blocked, pressure in the probe is released through the drain holes and the airspeed slowly drops to zero. If the ram air inlet and the probe drain holes are both blocked, pressure trapped within the system reacts unpredictably. The pressure may increase through expansion, decrease through contraction, or remain constant. In all cases, the airspeed indications would be abnormal. This could mean increasing indicated airspeed in climb, decreasing indicated airspeed in descent, or unpredictable indicated airspeed in cruise.

If the flight crew is aware of the problem, flight without the benefit of valid airspeed information can be safely conducted and should present little difficulty. Early recognition of erroneous airspeed indications requires familiarity with the interrelationship of attitude, thrust setting, and airspeed. A delay in recognition could result in loss of airplane control.

The flight crew should be familiar with the approximate pitch attitude for each flight maneuver. For example, climb performance is based on maintaining a particular airspeed or Mach number. This results in a specific body attitude that varies little with gross weight and altitude. Any significant change from the body attitude required to maintain a desired airspeed should alert the flight crew to a potential problem.


This is old and not correct
Completely different now
 
airtechy
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:09 am

shahjees wrote:
The same with AF47 incident, I am sure some faulty Air Data Inertial Reference Unit (ADIRU) among the things that could have happened

Image


Interesting. At some point I remembered reading, obviously wrong, that the standby instruments were self contained ... even with a battery backup. Artificial horizons with built in gyros ... both vacuum and electrical .. have been available for years (the 30's ?). I'm a little surprised these depend on an external IMU ... switchable between them though. The GS and LOC indicators would however need external receivers.

I've never seen this graphic. Thank's for posting.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:17 am

gia777 wrote:
The amount compensation given by the Lion Air also a joke... $500 per passenger for burial process and $1000 for immediate cash relief and $5000 for accident compensation. I still can't believe the government did not shut down this airlines long time ago. If Qantas never involved in accident means they have a very solid system in safety check. So again there is no excuse for this accident. Avoid Lion at all cost!


Actually that is the initial compensation, which is actually fairly standard across all airlines if I'm not mistaken.

Like I've said before, prior to this accident their last fatal accident was 14 years ago. Heck Garuda had a fatal accident in 2007 and you're still okay flying with them. Given the higher market share that Lion Air has over Garuda in the Indonesian market, one can easily argue that their fatality rate should have been higher if they were inherently unsafe! But it's not.

Now I'm not a Lion Air fanboy. I've flown their Malaysian franchise Malindo & wasn't really impressed. But never did I feel unsafe, at any time during my flight with them. So until we know more from the investigation, it's a bit too early to be hysterical.
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buzzard302
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:00 am

It is such a shame when an accident happens. If the plane hit so hard that it broke up into tiny pieces, it will show why MH370 has not been located (if it ended in a similar manner).

No way for anyone here to know what happened on this flight. But the casual analysis would seem there was a real struggle with this airplane. It will be a very long time before the information is public. Sorry to all the families and friends that lost loved ones in this accident.
 
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:19 am

spacecadet wrote:
as blocked ports would be due to the age of the airplane


What makes you think that? Bugs crawling into pitot tubes don't know their age. Ramp workers don't say, "Oh, that's an old pitot tube; go ahead and leave the cover on it." Pitot heat failure isn't confined to pitots of a certain age. Ice crystals are just as happy forming on new metal as on old.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:39 am

airtechy wrote:
shahjees wrote:
The same with AF47 incident, I am sure some faulty Air Data Inertial Reference Unit (ADIRU) among the things that could have happened

Image


Interesting. At some point I remembered reading, obviously wrong, that the standby instruments were self contained ... even with a battery backup. Artificial horizons with built in gyros ... both vacuum and electrical .. have been available for years (the 30's ?). I'm a little surprised these depend on an external IMU ... switchable between them though. The GS and LOC indicators would however need external receivers.

I've never seen this graphic. Thank's for posting.


You're not wrong. That Airbus graphic shows the standby ("ISIS") system only. ISIS has its own sensors, pitot 3 and static 3 in that schematic.

The whole picture with primary and standby air data systems is more like this, with variations by type. Note how the standby sensors feed the standby instruments directly, while the primary data (and also the standby data) goes via the air data modules to the ADRs. The ADRs then feed the PFDs, the autopilots and so on.

Image
Last edited by Starlionblue on Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:02 am, edited 12 times in total.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:44 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Trin wrote:
salttee wrote:
If they're in clouds with no visual reference and instrument failure, how would anybody be able to tell up from down?


Gravity. They aren't in orbit - 5,000ft or so does not change your body's perception of gravity. The notion that they could have ended up INVERTED or pointing towards the ground like a shuttlecock (WITHOUT THE PILOTS KNOWING) is just stupid.

Trin


As mentioned by several of us upthread disorientation is a common occurence in aviation. You can easily think you're banked when you're not, or pitched up or down differently from reality. Pilots have ended up inverted in cloud with little awareness of their actual attitude.

This is why we are taught to trust our instruments. And that's why things like unreliable airspeed are so insidious.



HappyKasper wrote:
A330freak wrote:
And eyewitness accounts of the crash

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL3N1XA2G7


So if that's an accurate account, and eyewitness accounts rarely are, it sounds like it could've been a stall. But how would a stall have the extremely high ground speed indicated by the ADS-B data?



Aircraft can stall at any speed and attitude.


The 737 MAX has the Roll Command Alerting System which gives a roll arrow on the PFD and an aural command “ROLL RIGHT” or “ROLL LEFT” to give clear direction which way to recover when the bank angle exceed 45 degrees. It’s designed to address loss of control and special disorientation accidents, as have occurred in the past. The KC-46 and some 737NGs have it also.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:22 am

Starlionblue wrote:
airtechy wrote:
shahjees wrote:
The same with AF47 incident, I am sure some faulty Air Data Inertial Reference Unit (ADIRU) among the things that could have happened

Image


Interesting. At some point I remembered reading, obviously wrong, that the standby instruments were self contained ... even with a battery backup. Artificial horizons with built in gyros ... both vacuum and electrical .. have been available for years (the 30's ?). I'm a little surprised these depend on an external IMU ... switchable between them though. The GS and LOC indicators would however need external receivers.

I've never seen this graphic. Thank's for posting.


You're not wrong. That Airbus graphic shows the standby ("ISIS") system only. ISIS has its own sensors, pitot 3 and static 3 in that schematic.

The whole picture with primary and standby air data systems is more like this, with variations by type. Note how the standby sensors feed the standby instruments directly, while the primary data (and also the standby data) goes via the air data modules to the ADRs. The ADRs then feed the PFDs, the autopilots and so on.

Image


His remark was about the ISIS. He thought (I did too) that at least it had its own gyro.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:53 am

Aesma wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
airtechy wrote:

Interesting. At some point I remembered reading, obviously wrong, that the standby instruments were self contained ... even with a battery backup. Artificial horizons with built in gyros ... both vacuum and electrical .. have been available for years (the 30's ?). I'm a little surprised these depend on an external IMU ... switchable between them though. The GS and LOC indicators would however need external receivers.

I've never seen this graphic. Thank's for posting.


You're not wrong. That Airbus graphic shows the standby ("ISIS") system only. ISIS has its own sensors, pitot 3 and static 3 in that schematic.

The whole picture with primary and standby air data systems is more like this, with variations by type. Note how the standby sensors feed the standby instruments directly, while the primary data (and also the standby data) goes via the air data modules to the ADRs. The ADRs then feed the PFDs, the autopilots and so on.

Image


His remark was about the ISIS. He thought (I did too) that at least it had its own gyro.


ISIS does have its own gyro. And its own accelerometer. They make up the "Inertial Module". All solid state if memory serves.

Older Airbii have a standalone steam gauge Artificial Horizon, which I think has a mechanical gyro since there is a caging knob.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ErichHartmann
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:19 am

gia777 wrote:
I am booked for this friday flight to CGK from SUB with Garuda 777. No way I am taking Lion and never will. I know my country has a very bad reputation regarding airline safety. My trust only with Garuda Indonesia - Citilink - Sriwijaya (yes). These 3 airlines you can count on them. As for Batik Airlines, they are still under Lion Group. Regardless what happened to the Lion accident, still, there is no excuse that the plane suffered technical issues the day before and they did not perform the repair for whatever reason 100% otherwise the accident will not occurred. Sure, they could say they performed the safety check under boeing guidelines...but who knows? Just like Adam Air, they notorious in cheating the safety check. Of course the Lion Air management will say we did the repair and the plane was good to go. Like hell they gonna say...yes we flew the broken plane. The amount compensation given by the Lion Air also a joke... $500 per passenger for burial process and $1000 for immediate cash relief and $5000 for accident compensation. I still can't believe the government did not shut down this airlines long time ago. If Qantas never involved in accident means they have a very solid system in safety check. So again there is no excuse for this accident. Avoid Lion at all cost!


You do not know that "they did not perform the repair". Furthermore, if an airline is running a company and an engineer says that they have repaired the fault/issue according to Boeing specifications/manual, then if the repair was not done in accordance with the relevant specifications/procedure but signed off by an engineer, is that still the Airline's negligence, or is it 'professional' sloppiness from one or more individual/s? I refer you to flight JAL123 & the horrendous loss of life due to a faulty repair signed off by an 'engineer'. I am not saying that this is the case in JT610, but the point is that it can happen.
 
airtechy
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:27 am

Actually, I should have looked at the graphic more closely ... as I thought it was for the 737.It would be interesting to see a similar graphic for the 737 showing the interfaces. It would seem that the fewer interfaces to the aircraft systems the better. Just trying to understand what is left for the pilots if the primary displays die.
 
benjjk
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:51 am

Reports now saying they have found the fuselage. Hopefully the black boxes will soon follow and we'll have some answers.
 
teachpdx
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:24 am

With the mention of the elevator in the maintenance log, the erratic flight profile, and the sharp dive at the end, this really feels similar to AS261. Anybody else getting that vibe?
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:16 am

teachpdx wrote:
With the mention of the elevator in the maintenance log, the erratic flight profile, and the sharp dive at the end, this really feels similar to AS261. Anybody else getting that vibe?


Not personally, but that doesn't mean there's not similarities.
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afterburner
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:34 am

gia777 wrote:
I am booked for this friday flight to CGK from SUB with Garuda 777. No way I am taking Lion and never will. I know my country has a very bad reputation regarding airline safety. My trust only with Garuda Indonesia - Citilink - Sriwijaya (yes). These 3 airlines you can count on them. As for Batik Airlines, they are still under Lion Group. Regardless what happened to the Lion accident, still, there is no excuse that the plane suffered technical issues the day before and they did not perform the repair for whatever reason 100% otherwise the accident will not occurred. Sure, they could say they performed the safety check under boeing guidelines...but who knows? Just like Adam Air, they notorious in cheating the safety check. Of course the Lion Air management will say we did the repair and the plane was good to go. Like hell they gonna say...yes we flew the broken plane. The amount compensation given by the Lion Air also a joke... $500 per passenger for burial process and $1000 for immediate cash relief and $5000 for accident compensation. I still can't believe the government did not shut down this airlines long time ago. If Qantas never involved in accident means they have a very solid system in safety check. So again there is no excuse for this accident. Avoid Lion at all cost!

Don't let aversion prevent us to be objective and give impartial judgments. You don't know for sure either whether Garuda, Citilink, and Sriwijaya are doing safety check under the manufacturers' guidelines. Garuda had a fatal accident in 2007 (GA200, 22 casualties) and yet you still trust the airline. Now defunct Batavia Air had worse maintenance procedures than Lion Air but had no fatal accidents until it ceased operations in 2013. It had much fewer numbers of routes and aircraft than Lion so statistically had less possibility of having an accident. Sriwijaya's aircraft are on average older than Lion's but you still trust the airline. I know, it's not the age of the aircraft that matters. It's how it is maintained. But, do you know in detail how Sriwijaya's aircraft are maintained?

Let's just wait until official investigation came out. I know it's Lion Air but again until the black box found we will never know what truly happens.

You said this earlier in this thread. But on the contrary you blame Lion Air for what has happened. Until now we don't know what really happened to JT610. So let's do what you said, wait until the official investigation result come out. We can still discuss the possibilities of what has happened. It's much better than expressing hatred towards the airline.
 
k3nnis
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:48 am

Once they find the black boxes how long until they will let the public know what happened?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:50 am

airtechy wrote:
Actually, I should have looked at the graphic more closely ... as I thought it was for the 737.It would be interesting to see a similar graphic for the 737 showing the interfaces. It would seem that the fewer interfaces to the aircraft systems the better. Just trying to understand what is left for the pilots if the primary displays die.


Losing all four displays is an astronomically remote possibility. Losing all primary air data references is more likely.

Either way there is a standby instrument, which presumably is fed directly from standby sources.

Image
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:37 am

k3nnis wrote:
Once they find the black boxes how long until they will let the public know what happened?


That depends on a lot of things. For one thing, the recorders may not have all the relevant information.

A final report typically takes several months at least. The relevant authority may choose to reveal partial findings before then, for example if there are unambiguous indications of a certain sequence of events.

Less than clever authorities dribble out unconfirmed information in a haphazard fashion, typically leading to confusion. But I digress...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
gia777
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:57 am

Lion Air Group just fired their Director Technical Operation today
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
gia777
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:12 am

ErichHartmann wrote:
gia777 wrote:
I am booked for this friday flight to CGK from SUB with Garuda 777. No way I am taking Lion and never will. I know my country has a very bad reputation regarding airline safety. My trust only with Garuda Indonesia - Citilink - Sriwijaya (yes). These 3 airlines you can count on them. As for Batik Airlines, they are still under Lion Group. Regardless what happened to the Lion accident, still, there is no excuse that the plane suffered technical issues the day before and they did not perform the repair for whatever reason 100% otherwise the accident will not occurred. Sure, they could say they performed the safety check under boeing guidelines...but who knows? Just like Adam Air, they notorious in cheating the safety check. Of course the Lion Air management will say we did the repair and the plane was good to go. Like hell they gonna say...yes we flew the broken plane. The amount compensation given by the Lion Air also a joke... $500 per passenger for burial process and $1000 for immediate cash relief and $5000 for accident compensation. I still can't believe the government did not shut down this airlines long time ago. If Qantas never involved in accident means they have a very solid system in safety check. So again there is no excuse for this accident. Avoid Lion at all cost!


You do not know that "they did not perform the repair". Furthermore, if an airline is running a company and an engineer says that they have repaired the fault/issue according to Boeing specifications/manual, then if the repair was not done in accordance with the relevant specifications/procedure but signed off by an engineer, is that still the Airline's negligence, or is it 'professional' sloppiness from one or more individual/s? I refer you to flight JAL123 & the horrendous loss of life due to a faulty repair signed off by an 'engineer'. I am not saying that this is the case in JT610, but the point is that it can happen.


There has to be a system to prevent sloppiness, there should be a 2 man rule, or something....I dont know but my saying is if Qantas, Lufthansa, etc name it....they are all accident free means their system are perfect
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
bcworld
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:06 am

gia777 wrote:
my saying is if Qantas, Lufthansa, etc name it....they are all accident free means their system are perfect


They're not perfect. Qantas has had incidents in the past where technicians have left foreign objects where they shouldn't be, resulting in damage...oily rags etc.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:28 am

Varsity1 wrote:
The most dangerous flight in an airplane is the first one after MX. Most airlines have expanded checklist procedures for precisely this reason. MX will move knobs and switches out of normal position (that are usually never touched) causing great confusion for the pilots if they aren't caught before flight.

It could be as simple as the cabin dump switch left open, the pilots are trying to figure out why the airplane isn't pressurizing and lose situational awareness. (eastern L1011 scenario)

And Helios scenario too (where they lost consciousness) with 121 fatalities.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:46 am

bcworld wrote:
gia777 wrote:
my saying is if Qantas, Lufthansa, etc name it....they are all accident free means their system are perfect


They're not perfect. Qantas has had incidents in the past where technicians have left foreign objects where they shouldn't be, resulting in damage...oily rags etc.


Indeed. There is no such thing as perfect. Even assuming perfection is possible can lead to hubris.

The best safety systems are multi-layered and resilient. It should be accepted and understood that errors will happen. Structures should be designed to catch those errors, and if not caught to make their consequences acceptable.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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scbriml
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:47 am

gia777 wrote:
There has to be a system to prevent sloppiness, there should be a 2 man rule, or something....I dont know but my saying is if Qantas, Lufthansa, etc name it....they are all accident free means their system are perfect


These systems are designed and operated by humans. They may well be very robust, but claiming them to be perfect is too much. Humans all make mistakes and perfection, while it can be admired and aimed for, is very rarely acheived.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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pugman211
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:54 am

scbriml wrote:
gia777 wrote:
There has to be a system to prevent sloppiness, there should be a 2 man rule, or something....I dont know but my saying is if Qantas, Lufthansa, etc name it....they are all accident free means their system are perfect


These systems are designed and operated by humans. They may well be very robust, but claiming them to be perfect is too much. Humans all make mistakes and perfection, while it can be admired and aimed for, is very rarely acheived.



Especially under a ticking clock which most ops will be carried out under
 
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afterburner
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:04 pm

gia777 wrote:
Lion Air Group just fired their Director Technical Operation today

No. He's just suspended from his position by the order of the Indonesian Ministry of Transportation. Lion Air can reassign him back to his position if later the investigation find that he is not liable for the accident.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:33 pm

Buyantukhaa wrote:
And Helios scenario too (where they lost consciousness) with 121 fatalities.


At 5,000 feet? I'm writing this post from a higher point than that.
 
Trin
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:02 pm

afterburner wrote:
gia777 wrote:
Lion Air Group just fired their Director Technical Operation today

No. He's just suspended from his position by the order of the Indonesian Ministry of Transportation. Lion Air can reassign him back to his position if later the investigation find that he is not liable for the accident.


Where do you get the suspension information vs. firing? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't find the quote anywhere.....everything I've seen either just flatly says "fired" or something like "Jakarta has ordered the removal of the budget carrier's technical director and staff who cleared the doomed flight for take-off."

There's two possibilities I guess here - either the government are flailing and spooked by Lion Air's past safety record, or they know something that they aren't ready to make public yet/have seen the mx logs from the flight the previous night and already know that somebody on the ground screwed up.

I appreciate all the education about spatial-d......after researching I now understand the tricks the inner ear can play. Although it should be noted that the pilots on this flight has daylight and only broken/partial cloud cover so horizon shouldn't have been a factor.

Trin
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:29 pm

Just a point of curiosity. How many MAXs does Lion have at this point, and are they all in service?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BWA900
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:39 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Just a point of curiosity. How many MAXs does Lion have at this point, and are they all in service?


The LionAir group has 12. All in service.
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afterburner
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:41 pm

BWA900 wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Just a point of curiosity. How many MAXs does Lion have at this point, and are they all in service?


The LionAir group has 12. All in service.

Lion Air (Indonesia) has 10 now.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:41 pm

k3nnis wrote:
Once they find the black boxes how long until they will let the public know what happened?


That is a complicated answer. The FDR will likely provide a very confused crew on what is happening, and some basic troubleshooting perhaps. Of course, they could have known exactly what was wrong as well. It just depends on what the cause is. That is all dependent on what was actually said. Alarms and things will also offer clues as well.

I am really hopeful the DFDR reads enough information for them to zero in on exactly what has happened. As for the public knowing? Sometimes agencies wait until the exact cause is determined, and we have to wait until the actual report is sent. I am hopeful the families and loved ones get the cause before the public, as they deserve this info first.

I have to ask. Will the black box be sent to DC? Or will the NTSB send someone there to assist with the help on a readout?
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osiris30
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:41 pm

BWA900 wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Just a point of curiosity. How many MAXs does Lion have at this point, and are they all in service?


The LionAir group has 12. All in service.


11 now IIRC.
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cat3appr50
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:45 pm

The inbound connecting flight JT43 WADD to WIII departed Oct. 28 at 1422Z. It arrived at WIII Oct. 28, 2018 at 1559Z. Per FlightAware data (assuming accurate), in climb at 1425Z the flight was at 4,950’ msl @ 282 gs and +1554 fpm. At 1425.5Z it was at 5,425’ msl @ 291 gs and -68 fpm. At 1425.9Z it was at 4,900’ msl @ 310 gs and +551 fpm. At 1426Z it was at 5,875’ msl @ 286 gs and +2123 fpm. No idea what initial altitude the flight was cleared to by ATC, and if this was just a result of not tracking the FD guidance properly to meet the initial altitude. But the data shows a strange descent after 5,425’ msl altitude back down to 4,900’ msl, followed by a climb up to 5,875’ msl. The media reported (don’t know if accurate), that passengers felt this anomaly, “three to eight minutes after it took off.” It would seem this may be a primary event regarding a (if accurate) log book entry of “airspeed and altitude disagree” for maintenance to check.

This was similar (see my original post) to the altitude and gs excursion/anomaly that the accident flight JT610 WIII to WIPK experienced (per FlightAware and FlightRadar24 data, assuming accurate) after takeoff during the initial climb. Again, have no idea what altitude the inbound flight and accident flight were cleared to initially.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:30 pm

Officials have located an underwater pinging sound which they believe is the aircraft's blackbox.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/o ... -black-box
 
gzm
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:42 pm

gia777 wrote:
You do not know that "they did not perform the repair". Furthermore, if an airline is running a company and an engineer says that they have repaired the fault/issue according to Boeing specifications/manual, then if the repair was not done in accordance with the relevant specifications/procedure but signed off by an engineer, is that still the Airline's negligence, or is it 'professional' sloppiness from one or more individual/s?

Or, as we say in my country "The operation was successful, the patient died".

There has to be a system to prevent sloppiness, there should be a 2 man rule, or something....I dont know but my saying is if Qantas, Lufthansa, etc name it....they are all accident free means their system are perfect

Add Olympic in that list. The answer is simple: It is called TEST FLIGHT!
 
D L X
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:51 pm

A little reminder of the human toll events like this take.

This man missed the flight because he was stuck in traffic. His 20 friends and colleagues were on the plane, and now he is mourning them.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-says-tra ... 01356.html

RIP all.
 
gia777
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:57 pm

I must agree....TEST FLIGHT must be performed every time after the plane got fixed!
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
idude
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:08 pm

Indonesia removes Lion Air director after plane crash - Antara news agency

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-indon ... N50J1?il=0
 
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Moose135
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:12 pm

gia777 wrote:
I must agree....TEST FLIGHT must be performed every time after the plane got fixed!

What airlines do a test flight on every aircraft after every repair?
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:16 pm

gia777 wrote:
I must agree....TEST FLIGHT must be performed every time after the plane got fixed!


That's a ridiculous and very amateurish statement.
Whatever
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:18 pm

NYPECO wrote:
Officials have located an underwater pinging sound which they believe is the aircraft's blackbox.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/o ... -black-box

Also located fusalage :
https://gcaptain.com/indonesia-believes ... black-box/
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gzm
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:19 pm

We mean,if they had performed a test flight on that plane, they would have fixed it right. It is obvious they did not, they pressed it back into flight schedules instead.
 
pianos101
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:23 pm

gzm wrote:
We mean,if they had done a test flight on that plane, they would have fixed it right. But they pressed it back into flight schedules instead.


That's a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? The AMM for the procedures performed, at least from the tech log entry we've seen, does not require a test flight prior to the A/C returning to service. The AMM is FAA-approved, so why should an operator deviate from that?
 
gzm
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:30 pm

pianos101 wrote:
gzm wrote:
We mean,if they had done a test flight on that plane, they would have fixed it right. But they pressed it back into flight schedules instead.


That's a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? The AMM for the procedures performed, at least from the tech log entry we've seen, does not require a test flight prior to the A/C returning to service. The AMM is FAA-approved, so why should an operator deviate from that?

My friend, I have already answered that. "The Operation was Successful, the Patient Died!"
And, as we were fond to say at Olympic on a more malicious note, "The autopsy will show".
 
osiris30
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Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangal Pinang

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:49 pm

gia777 wrote:
I must agree....TEST FLIGHT must be performed every time after the plane got fixed!


You would never see a plane in service then. IF maintenance is performed properly you should only need a test flight after heavy checks or weird issues. Many times maintenance consists of changing a bulb or resetting something or greasing a squeaky something else. A test flight after every MX trip would cost a fortune and is not needed IF you MX team does the right thing.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)

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