Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Noshow
Posts: 1693
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:23 pm

Hopefully it is readable. Looks like having some scars.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2941
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:45 pm

Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:58 pm

United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


1. impact causes underwater crater
2. wreck lies in the crater
3. water currents deposit mud on the wreckage
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ErichHartmann
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:40 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:02 pm

N212R wrote:
stiphy wrote:


Smoke and mirrors, posturing for the peanut gallery, call it what you will.

The fix has been in from the get go. Why no one in the aviation community seems bothered by this cover-up is indeed troubling.



It doesn't matter what it is in life, you should never make assumptions. Facts matter in every facet of life, including such serious matters as these investigations.

Pass the peanuts.
 
User avatar
FlyXLsa
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:03 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:18 pm

Good job by the Indonesian Navy!
Whiskey-Oscar-Oscar-Foxtrot
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8414
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:23 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
Does anyone know if there is encryption on the data in these black boxes (to prevent tampering)? Eg, in PGP encryption, Boeing would have a private key hardcoded into the black box to encrypt the data, and a public key would be given to the airlines or investigation board to decrypt.


Voice and data are properties of the airline or the airship registered nation. Why would third parties hold private/public keys?
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1026
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:25 pm

United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?

Yes, this is very impressive.

According to The Aviation Herald:
"The CVR was found in 8 meters deep mud at the bottom of 30 meters deep water, about 50 meters from the position where the FDR had been recovered from. 73 days (Jan 10th) after the crash the pinger's signal was still active though weaker. So far it is unclear whether the CVR is damaged, the box has scratches on it."
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
Boeingphan
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:29 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:36 pm

With all due respect how on earth would someone dig 28 feet deep in mud 100 feet below the water? On land it would take two excavators to bench down that deep. This doesn't add up.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:47 pm

Thank god they found it, now lets see what the CVR will reveal, and see the faces of B haters.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:52 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
With all due respect how on earth would someone dig 28 feet deep in mud 100 feet below the water? On land it would take two excavators to bench down that deep. This doesn't add up.
For goodness sake!
This is mud under water, that by definition has very recently been disturbed.
I could have dug it up with a soup ladle. You don't need an excavator.

In all probability they used an airline.... perhaps I should say an airhose, and blasted it clear.
Or an airlift pump, or,.....
It often results in pretty awful conditions for any divers in terms of visibility, but definitely not a unique situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_eductor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift_(dredging_device)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Boeingphan
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:29 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:57 pm

28 feet deep bud? Come on. It's the size of 3 hockey pucks. Metal detector or not I'm just trying to figure out how one would dig 28 feet deep in one concentrated area.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Boeingphan wrote:
With all due respect how on earth would someone dig 28 feet deep in mud 100 feet below the water? On land it would take two excavators to bench down that deep. This doesn't add up.
For goodness sake!
This is mud under water, that by definition has very recently been disturbed.
I could have dug it up with a soup ladle. You don't need an excavator.

In all probability they used an airline.... perhaps I should say an airhose, and blasted it clear.
Or an airlift pump, or,.....
It often results in pretty awful conditions for any divers in terms of visibility, but definitely not a unique situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_eductor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift_(dredging_device)
 
EChid
Posts: 567
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:00 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:27 pm

notaxonrotax wrote:
Oh, some conspiracy theorists have humble pie for breakfast this morning.
Enjoy!

Now let's find out what happened exactly!


No Tax On Rotax

Nah, if you're into conspiracies this is merely the next plot twist in a long line of further elements of the conspiracy.

For example, maybe it's a...FAKE CVR - complete with recordings!!! Boeing had their connections in Hollywood make it!!! /sarcasm
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:57 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
28 feet deep bud? Come on. It's the size of 3 hockey pucks. Metal detector or not I'm just trying to figure out how one would dig 28 feet deep in one concentrated area.

I'll say it again...
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
This is mud under water, that by definition has very recently been disturbed.
I could have dug it up with a soup ladle. You don't need an excavator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift_(dredging_device)

You are in an open channel, with tidal flows and wave action. Lift the mud particles up into the tidal flow using an airlift pump, and let nature carry it miles away. Sure, the sides of the hole fall in, so you just repeat until you get where you need to be. It's a big ocean; it can take it.

Remembering that this mud is freshly disturbed, there is also another option. Drop a (weighted) diver down on a long line. He will sink through the mud just like the CVR did before him. When his feet reach the CVR, he bends down, finds the CVR by touch, picks it up, and gives two tugs on the line. "Beam me up Scotty"

In fact, you don't even need a diver; just use one of those grab-hooks you find in amusement arcades...
Image

You're welcome!
Image
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Trin
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:59 pm

I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou - but now that the CVR has been found, it should in the very least bring us back down to earth and remember just what happened to the poor souls on board that plane. All the high-octane posts about people eating humble pie for breakfast this morning and the hooyeahs and jabs at conspiracy theorists really look a bit noxious at this point, people.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24626
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:07 pm

Trin wrote:
I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou - but now that the CVR has been found, it should in the very least bring us back down to earth and remember just what happened to the poor souls on board that plane. All the high-octane posts about people eating humble pie for breakfast this morning and the hooyeahs and jabs at conspiracy theorists really look a bit noxious at this point, people.

Oh ye of little faith. We have yet to find the data on the CVR was readable. If not, conspiracy. If it says something someone doesn't like, they will float the theory that the device actually was recovered weeks ago and was tampered with then buried under 28 feet of mud. Keep in mind conspiracy theories by definition have relaxed requirements for truthfulness.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
pugman211
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:13 pm

Happy to see the CVR has been found just to complete the last part of the puzzle. May the investigation move forward and finish it's job.
 
User avatar
GEUltraFan9XGTF
Posts: 385
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:31 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:14 pm

I can't believe people are questioning the CVR's authenticity. Come on, enough with the tinfoil hats.
© 2020. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:22 pm

SimpleFlying wrote:
Reasons?


If you're asking the question, it tells me you won't understand the thought process behind an open-minded take at this investigation.

Our first job is to trust nobody.

United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


Good question. 28 feet raises more questions than it does answers. It gives even more credibility to the theory that this investigation has been tampered with.
 
Trin
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
Trin wrote:
I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou - but now that the CVR has been found, it should in the very least bring us back down to earth and remember just what happened to the poor souls on board that plane. All the high-octane posts about people eating humble pie for breakfast this morning and the hooyeahs and jabs at conspiracy theorists really look a bit noxious at this point, people.

Oh ye of little faith. We have yet to find the data on the CVR was readable. If not, conspiracy. If it says something someone doesn't like, they will float the theory that the device actually was recovered weeks ago and was tampered with then buried under 28 feet of mud. Keep in mind conspiracy theories by definition have relaxed requirements for truthfulness.


I don't know if you understood my post. I wasn't poking fun at the conspiracy theorists or taking sides or anything. I don't care about any of that. Your reply only feeds in to what I take issue with right now.
 
FTMCPIUS
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:10 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:26 pm

"...the recorder was "broken into two pieces" but hoped it was "still useful" to investigators." FDRs/CVRs seem to withstand extremely violent crashes on land but here, on water, the CVR is broken into two pieces. Ya, water is hard on impact but still.
 
StTim
Posts: 3733
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
Trin wrote:
I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou - but now that the CVR has been found, it should in the very least bring us back down to earth and remember just what happened to the poor souls on board that plane. All the high-octane posts about people eating humble pie for breakfast this morning and the hooyeahs and jabs at conspiracy theorists really look a bit noxious at this point, people.

Oh ye of little faith. We have yet to find the data on the CVR was readable. If not, conspiracy. If it says something someone doesn't like, they will float the theory that the device actually was recovered weeks ago and was tampered with then buried under 28 feet of mud. Keep in mind conspiracy theories by definition have relaxed requirements for truthfulness.


It will be a conspiracy if the results from the CVR do not align with their views.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:40 pm

For those questioning how they found it. They used underwater dredges much like what divers use to mine gold or uncover shipwrecks buried below the seabed. 28 feet isn't all that surprising especially in a channel with lots of tidal action. What's more surprising is that people would suggest that they would have found the CVR and then intentionally buried something that deep, somehow without anyone seeing them doing so in the vicinity. Leaks in investigations are notoriously bad. If the CVR had been tampered with or found earlier we would have already known.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:49 pm

Trin wrote:
I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou - but now that the CVR has been found, it should in the very least bring us back down to earth and remember just what happened to the poor souls on board that plane. All the high-octane posts about people eating humble pie for breakfast this morning and the hooyeahs and jabs at conspiracy theorists really look a bit noxious at this point, people.

What for, do we need to remember every single day all the starving children in the world?
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1026
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
"...the recorder was "broken into two pieces" but hoped it was "still useful" to investigators." FDRs/CVRs seem to withstand extremely violent crashes on land but here, on water, the CVR is broken into two pieces. Ya, water is hard on impact but still.

The flight recorder is physically in multiple pieces: the chassis,the electronic processing unit, the memory unit, and the locator. In case of very high shock the memory unit can be separated from the chassis and the processing unit. The locator is fixed on the memory unit but can also be wiped out by a very high energy impact but this is more rare. Recorder found in two pieces already happened on some accidents. All the investigators need is the memory unit.

An example from Wikipedia:
Image
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:55 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


Good question. 28 feet raises more questions than it does answers. It gives even more credibility to the theory that this investigation has been tampered with.


Probably using a device something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33R2vHr2Zzc
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:11 pm

trav777 wrote:
Most pilots would have returned to base after the first failure of the system.

Ehm, that is exactly what their game plan was! How that is open to discussion?


trav777 wrote:
A US pilot wouldn't fly with a busted AoA sensor upon which several autopilot systems depend.

Did they know (or could have known) they had a busted AoA sensor?


trav777 wrote:
Your agenda is transparent- to blame Boeing. We can all see that.

Self-reflection seems to be a dying virtue these days . . .


trav777 wrote:
You resort to things like a n=2 sample size to base a statistical estimate on. This is absurd.

Wow, that one went completely over your head; you completely missed the point . . .


trav777 wrote:
What does this tell you about Lion Air?

This actually is a good question.

Unfortunately, based on your posts, you seem to have your answer already. Which is a most damaging position from an investigation point of view, as you need the facts leading up to a (preferably undisputable) conclusion, not a conclusion leading to (selection of suitable) facts, commonly know as tunnel-vision.


trav777 wrote:
What the FDR showed in this crash was that the engagement of flaps STOPPED the nose down trim. The pilots should have left the plane in that configuration and returned to base.

Why didn't they?

. . . .

. After successfully getting it to go straight and level via engagement of flaps. Why didn't someone put the flaps back out?


Perhaps, because they were following a troubleshooting checklist?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
trav777
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:26 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Well, how did they know the flaps had an effect? No one told them flaps had an effect to the MCAS algorithm... and you expect them to figure it out? Many weird things are happening in your airplane all the time (including right after liftoff, when flaps was still on). You're fighting the airplane. I fully understand that if they did not know beforehand, they were not going to 100% reliably understand the relation during their emergency.


Just cause and effect...if I were piloting a plane trying to kill me, literally steering itself into the ground and I got it to stop doing that, I would probably wanna get it back on the ground.

Nobody knew it was MCAS or AoA sensor...hell, it could have been a statistically insignificant failure mode caused by cosmic rays...lord would only know in that circumstance. But getting a plane to suddenly behave after a situation like this...keep it there, return to runway.

I mean, there are some who are soft-pedaling the severity of this malfunction when the evidence glaring at us is it was severe enough to this crew to kill everyone aboard. An emergency like that in retrospect demands return.

Either it's what I say or else this is a "no big deal" type of malfunction (as others have suggested) in which case these pilots were incompetent.

It's a confusing situation as the trim up switches were used to counteract the MCAS effects, repeatedly...why did they not just keep doing that? Nose goes down, trim wheel keeps moving, use the switches or the wheel. Over and over...i mean the alternative is a scenic tour via the bottom of the ocean which is undesirable.

Now that the CVR has been found, we can shed some light on why the pilots stopped performing the necessary counteracting inputs
 
StTim
Posts: 3733
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:36 pm

trav777 wrote:

Now that the CVR has been found, we can shed some light on why the pilots stopped performing the necessary counteracting inputs


And by inference clear Boeing.


I suggest you get off your high horse and wait for the investigation report.
 
trav777
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:36 pm

PW100 wrote:
trav777 wrote:
Most pilots would have returned to base after the first failure of the system.

Ehm, that is exactly what their game plan was! How that is open to discussion?


trav777 wrote:
A US pilot wouldn't fly with a busted AoA sensor upon which several autopilot systems depend.

Did they know (or could have known) they had a busted AoA sensor?


trav777 wrote:
Your agenda is transparent- to blame Boeing. We can all see that.

Self-reflection seems to be a dying virtue these days . . .


trav777 wrote:
You resort to things like a n=2 sample size to base a statistical estimate on. This is absurd.

Wow, that one went completely over your head; you completely missed the point . . .


trav777 wrote:
What does this tell you about Lion Air?

This actually is a good question.

Unfortunately, based on your posts, you seem to have your answer already. Which is a most damaging position from an investigation point of view, as you need the facts leading up to a (preferably undisputable) conclusion, not a conclusion leading to (selection of suitable) facts, commonly know as tunnel-vision.


trav777 wrote:
What the FDR showed in this crash was that the engagement of flaps STOPPED the nose down trim. The pilots should have left the plane in that configuration and returned to base.

Why didn't they?

. . . .

. After successfully getting it to go straight and level via engagement of flaps. Why didn't someone put the flaps back out?


Perhaps, because they were following a troubleshooting checklist?


1) no. Previous flight encountered same issue, continued to destination. Fatal flight repeatedly got to straight and level and did not return
2) yes. maintenance looked at exactly that. A US operator wouldn't do this flight. The entire notification chain between maintenance and the pilots is broken in this case.
3) agree
4) there is nothing whatsoever about goal-seeking a conclusion based upon a n=2 sample size that went over my head, bud. I called it for what it was
5) I base my conclusions on Lion Air around their atrocious safety record and I put it out there that this is very likely a continuation of that trend. Do not attempt to pretend that this airline does not have a safety and culture problem. In this case on the VERY PREVIOUS FLIGHT the plane tried to kill that crew too and was unsuccessful yet they continued to destination with a plane in kill mode and then made some sort of report or comment about it and Lion let the plane go up again. I'm not placing the blame on the pilots for all that...who do you think is responsible for letting a KNOWN defective plane fly? The plane was broken, was not repaired, and flew itself into the ocean. This should not have happened.
6) following a checklist and not paying attention? Ok...checklist...plane now straight and level, emergency...return. Instead it was let's try to figure out a way to continue the flight JUST THE SAME as the previous crew did.

How long before this plane killed everyone aboard? In Lion's hands, it *was* actually just 2 flights. It should have been repaired not signed off on for another leg. Perhaps you missed my comment on product liability or it was scrubbed by mods. Boeing is absolutely liable for damages from this defect. At the same time, Lion NEVER should have allowed this plane to go back up. Both parties are liable.

"And by inference clear Boeing.
I suggest you get off your high horse and wait for the investigation report."

Clear Boeing? This is the type of comment that is just totally unconstructive. I posted in detail how Boeing was absolutely liable for this crash, jointly, and severally, with Lion Air. Boeing is not going to be "cleared", they are going to pay. The party trying to "clear" itself is Lion Air, attempting to say Boeing gave us a plane that shouldn't be flying and true to form Anet piles onto that as well as anything negative to this manufacturer. Failure to fix the AoA sensor, failure to take this plane out of service, pilot negligence- these are all contributory factors squarely in Lion Air's lap. The MCAS system and any contributing failure to notify pilots as to potential failure modes falls to Boeing. Both are liable. The courts will decide what % goes to each. I cannot be any clearer than that. I also *cannot* fathom how someone could be so enamored with an aircraft manufacturer that they would deny any liability for them for a product that literally killed almost a couple hundred people. Boeing will pay and should pay as the product manufacturer, however this is not some sort of massive critical flaw in their jet that overrides any and all downstream negligence. People died...people with families and lives...this is not the time for religious discussions about jet manufacturers
 
StTim
Posts: 3733
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:58 pm

I may not have read all your posts but I don't see many thinking that any one party is blame free in this.

For the industry to continue to become safer we need accidents to be properly investigated without fear or favour.

At the end of the day the pilot is the last link in the chain. When things go wrong to put them in an unusual/unknown position then if the are lucky/good/experienced they may make the right choices. They may not.
 
N212R
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:42 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


1. impact causes underwater crater
2. wreck lies in the crater
3. water currents deposit mud on the wreckage


Where is the evidence for this type of impact?
How was the FDR found so easily if that was the case?
How long would it take for currents to deposit 28 ft of mud on a given area?

Don't hold your breathes for any underwater photos....
 
N212R
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:56 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
"...the recorder was "broken into two pieces" but hoped it was "still useful" to investigators." FDRs/CVRs seem to withstand extremely violent crashes on land but here, on water, the CVR is broken into two pieces. Ya, water is hard on impact but still.


Hope springs eternal
 
hivue
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:03 pm

United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


Dredge up big shovels full of mud, dump it on the deck of a barge, and have people go through it till they find something.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
hivue
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:24 pm

salttee wrote:
Get real guy, that was stab trim runaway.


It would be interesting to hear Boeing specifically call it that.

Per my post in part 49 of this thread where Boeing commented on the preliminary report being silent regarding whether the accident crew ran the stab trim runaway procedure: Is it actually not known whether they did or not?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:39 pm

N212R wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


1. impact causes underwater crater
2. wreck lies in the crater
3. water currents deposit mud on the wreckage


Where is the evidence for this type of impact?
How was the FDR found so easily if that was the case?
How long would it take for currents to deposit 28 ft of mud on a given area?

Don't hold your breathes for any underwater photos....


1. Plane crashes on water, and as water is not compressible, it must move somewhere. And creates an underwater crater in the process. (When jets crashed in swamps, parts have been found several meters deep.)
2. Because one of the recorders obviously sheared off the rack in a different way. Chance.
3. Ever seen how quickly snow drifts develop? Strong currents do a good job transporting mud. After all, the CVR has laid there for more than two months.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:41 pm

hivue wrote:
salttee wrote:
Get real guy, that was stab trim runaway.


It would be interesting to hear Boeing specifically call it that.

Per my post in part 49 of this thread where Boeing commented on the preliminary report being silent regarding whether the accident crew ran the stab trim runaway procedure: Is it actually not known whether they did or not?


Seems pretty clear to me that they did not follow runaway trim procedures. We can see that from the FDR.

Though the FDR shows us that they at least were aware they were having trim issues because they were actively countering the trim for a while. But then they all of a sudden stopped. The CVR should help shed light as to why.
 
StTim
Posts: 3733
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:47 pm

But this wasn't a runaway trim in the way that the pilots are trained for. For that the trim switches are ineffective. Here the trim actions were intermittent and stopped by trim adjustments. So it wasn't the trained for runaway trim.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1528
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:50 pm

The search has presumably changed the underwater landscape. None of the vessels used had the ability to lift tonnes of sea bed, than transport it out of the area, return, and continue. Would be incredibly slow, even if they could.

So likely they extracted sea bed in the vicinity of the CVR, perhaps detecting weak pings, and in doing so, actually deposited more on top of it.

And finally, I'm sure there's a little poetic licence regarding the actual depth it was buried.
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:55 pm

hivue wrote:
salttee wrote:
Get real guy, that was stab trim runaway.


It would be interesting to hear Boeing specifically call it that.

Per my post in part 49 of this thread where Boeing commented on the preliminary report being silent regarding whether the accident crew ran the stab trim runaway procedure: Is it actually not known whether they did or not?

I don't know what the stab trim runaway procedures are, but I doubt that they followed them whatever they are. It is my belief that this flight crew were too procedure bound anyway.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1043
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:56 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
SimpleFlying wrote:
Reasons?


If you're asking the question, it tells me you won't understand the thought process behind an open-minded take at this investigation.

Our first job is to trust nobody.

United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


Good question. 28 feet raises more questions than it does answers. It gives even more credibility to the theory that this investigation has been tampered with.

Would you asked the same questions when it was a 737MAX operated by an US airline?
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:00 pm

this:

trav777 wrote:
These were Lion Air "pilots". "Flying" a jet that should have returned to base on the previous leg. This plane should not have been in the air at all. Nothing is wrong with MCAS, the lack of redundancy in the AoA sensor chain is the defect here.

But, reading the reports of pilot activity...I'm sorry. I've flown. If the plane is going haywire and you do something and it goes straight and level, YOU DON'T TOUCH A THING AFTER THAT and you return to the runway. I cannot even fathom a professional pilot in a jet that is trying to push you into the ground and you go flaps 1 and it levels out and you....disengage flaps!??!? Then it tries to kill you again and you go flaps1 and it stops and you....AGAIN disengage flaps? This is insane.


I just can't fathom the logic that lead to this. Maybe we'll find out from the CVR now.
 
hivue
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:04 pm

trpmb6 wrote:

Seems pretty clear to me that they did not follow runaway trim procedures. We can see that from the FDR.


Right that the FDR would have that info, but did the investigators ever say they saw that? From my post in part 49 --
"Boeing released a statement in response to publication of the NTSC preliminary report in which it makes this observation: 'Unlike as is stated with respect to the prior flight, the report does not state whether the pilots performed the runaway stabilizer procedure or cut out the stabilizer trim switches.'"

Source: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/lion-air-lessons/
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
trav777
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:06 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
N212R wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:

1. impact causes underwater crater
2. wreck lies in the crater
3. water currents deposit mud on the wreckage


Where is the evidence for this type of impact?
How was the FDR found so easily if that was the case?
How long would it take for currents to deposit 28 ft of mud on a given area?

Don't hold your breathes for any underwater photos....


1. Plane crashes on water, and as water is not compressible, it must move somewhere. And creates an underwater crater in the process. (When jets crashed in swamps, parts have been found several meters deep.)
2. Because one of the recorders obviously sheared off the rack in a different way. Chance.
3. Ever seen how quickly snow drifts develop? Strong currents do a good job transporting mud. After all, the CVR has laid there for more than two months.

David


This plane apparently plunged a mile in 8 seconds...it was moving at incredibly high speed. Like straight down. The bottom of the ocean there is probably very soft and is subject to continued current. I'm not sure how the plane was "supposed" to have looked after that type of impact...do people surmise it would be sitting at the bottom in one piece?
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:12 pm

United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?


Some of these shallow water impact craters are amazingly deep, go look at the writeups on the recovery of the Valujet everglades crash ... pieces of that airplane ended up way, way underneath the bottom of the swamp (after going through several feet of water). High speeds will do that. Front end pushes the water out of the way, back end augers into the soft ground and just keeps going. Then the water rushes back in and covers everything up.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19181
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:12 pm

Wow, just wow. :banghead:

I'm buying shares in tin foil makers because the demand must be much higher than I realised. :sarcastic:

I called it.
scbriml wrote:
That’s not how conspiracy theory nut-jobs work. The theory will now be modified to ‘fit the facts’ - this won’t be the real CVR, it’s a planted one designed to absolve Lion and Indonesia and make Boeing look bad. :sarcastic:


StTim wrote:
But this wasn't a runaway trim in the way that the pilots are trained for. For that the trim switches are ineffective. Here the trim actions were intermittent and stopped by trim adjustments. So it wasn't the trained for runaway trim.


Give up - it doesn't matter how many times this is pointed out, it's an inconvenient truth for those that want to lay the blame 100% on Lion and its crew.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
dakota123
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:03 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:15 pm

trav777 wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:

It's a confusing situation as the trim up switches were used to counteract the MCAS effects, repeatedly...why did they not just keep doing that? Nose goes down, trim wheel keeps moving, use the switches or the wheel. Over and over...i mean the alternative is a scenic tour via the bottom of the ocean which is undesirable.

Now that the CVR has been found, we can shed some light on why the pilots stopped performing the necessary counteracting inputs


The FDR shows fairly strongly that the captain did just that (re-trimming NU after every MCAS input), then ceded control to the FO, who also did the same but only enough to stop further ND trim, just blipping the switch really, not enough to correct back to a manageable condition.

Indeed, hopefully the CVR gives some indication as to why.
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:27 pm

The FDR is typically located near the base of the tail, the CVR is usually near the cockpit, also up high. Locations picked to be separate and in the least likely damaged locations. Nearly all crashes on land at least 1 will be located and readable. It is optional to install dual FDR/CVR units at either location, but still have two units on the plane. If both are dual in this case we would have had both back in November. The CVR can take a huge beating in a nose first accident.

We have all seen the results of a car hitting the bridge abutment at 60 MPH. At 360 MPH the energy is 36 times per pound of the car crash. In a plane crash it can compress the hull down to 25-30 feet and cause a 30 foot crater. It is clear that a crater was caused here that filled back with mud and debris. Have you tried digging thru mud with shards of metal and plastics all thru it, a real bitch. Probably both a large clam bucket and a dredge hose. Imagine a 16" hose sucking water in at 10 FPS. Moves lots of mud while keeping visibility better.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2941
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:32 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
United787 wrote:
Under 28 feet of mud according to CNN. How did it get buried so deep and how the hell did they find that it?

Yes, this is very impressive.

According to The Aviation Herald:
"The CVR was found in 8 meters deep mud at the bottom of 30 meters deep water, about 50 meters from the position where the FDR had been recovered from. 73 days (Jan 10th) after the crash the pinger's signal was still active though weaker. So far it is unclear whether the CVR is damaged, the box has scratches on it."


I agree, impressive.

For the record, I wasn't suggesting any conspiracy, just impressed and curious.

Here is what I don't understand. I know when there is a high impact crash into terrain, debris can be buried deep in the ground (e.g. AA 4184). But, when a plane hits the water, I would think that the initial impact with the water would break up the plane into thousands of smaller pieces and then those smaller pieces would slow considerably having travelled through 30 meters of water before hitting the ocean floor...
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:34 pm

litz wrote:
Some of these shallow water impact craters are amazingly deep, go look at the writeups on the recovery of the Valujet everglades crash ... pieces of that airplane ended up way, way underneath the bottom of the swamp (after going through several feet of water). High speeds will do that. Front end pushes the water out of the way, back end augers into the soft ground and just keeps going. Then the water rushes back in and covers everything up.


There's a fundamental difference between splashing into a shallow swamp and hitting an ocean 100 feet deep. You can get an idea of this at home. Throw a half-empty beverage can down into a puddle. Then throw it into a large bucket of water.

Physics tells us the plane would disintegrate on impact and cause minor, if any, displacement of the ocean floor. And the initial video of the wreckage (assuming authenticity of the video of course) confirms the science behind it. 28 feet is not plausible due to the impact alone. Even the most violent surface impacts are only about this deep or less.There needs to be an explanation given to us of how it was 28 feet below the water.
 
trav777
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Re: Lion Air 737MAX8 Crashed Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:42 pm

dakota123 wrote:
trav777 wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:

It's a confusing situation as the trim up switches were used to counteract the MCAS effects, repeatedly...why did they not just keep doing that? Nose goes down, trim wheel keeps moving, use the switches or the wheel. Over and over...i mean the alternative is a scenic tour via the bottom of the ocean which is undesirable.

Now that the CVR has been found, we can shed some light on why the pilots stopped performing the necessary counteracting inputs


The FDR shows fairly strongly that the captain did just that (re-trimming NU after every MCAS input), then ceded control to the FO, who also did the same but only enough to stop further ND trim, just blipping the switch really, not enough to correct back to a manageable condition.

Indeed, hopefully the CVR gives some indication as to why.


The facts of the crash suggest the FO wasn't paying attention...it's another situation like AF447 where the FO had control and didn't check the attitude indicator or the altitude tape...wish we had in-cockpit video tracking what these guys' eyes were actually looking at. In both of these crashes I'm left like wondering why was nobody reviewing the MFD. Maybe it's a pilot training problem that's pervasive...hopefully the VR sheds light

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos